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      "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."

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      Carlos Qiqabal
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      "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Jul 29, 2013 10:22:44 pm

      When FSG took control of the club, they can hardly have known the size of the task that awaited them.

      Despite all the mockery they had taken for not being "football people" or not "understanding the game" it had become more painfully apparent with every passing year that the previous regimes, who qualified for both these monikers, failed to bring home the League Championship since the 1989-90 season.

      In comparison, Everton, the team we love to mock, last won the same title in 1986-87, which is a damning statistic. Yet how could it have come to pass that England's most successful club had fallen so far from grace?

      Part of the reason is that our winning habit was lost through complacency. All dynasties end and all regimes pass - like weeds forcing their way through tiny gaps in concrete, complacency seeps into every foundation upon which success is built and causes fatal cracks which causes the whole edifice to come crumbling down.

      Instead of sticking to the principles which had helped guide us to success previously, we became lazy and decadent and thought that success would arrive just because of our name and our history.


      We forgot that this club is built on a special relationship between the supporters and the manager and that nothing can be achieved without that support.

      We forgot that players need time and patience to bed into a team and to learn their craft.

      We forgot that the team comes first and that no individual is greater than the collective.

      And we forgot the crucial role that money plays in professional sports, this from the team that was the first to put a sponsor on our shirts.


      When FSG bought our club, we were rescued from potential armageddon in more ways than one. Without backing from an owner you could quickly discount us from any further attempts at the title - or even  of staying in the league. Gate receipts and TV deals only take you so far in a world where the average employee is earning tens of thousands of pounds a week.

      And if we had been bought by an Arab or Russian oligarch, our club would have been used as a plaything, with all our history and culture tossed aside at the whim of an individual, as we have seen in the blue halves of Manchester and London. Possibly the worst option of all we narrowly survived - which was the debt-leveraged buyout forcing a millstone around the club's neck and which could easily have lead to bankruptcy.

      Somehow, we ended up with the best possible option available in which we had a self-sustaining model where the owners didn't take money out of the club but instead grew rich by making the club rich and thereby increasing their worth.

      Of course, choosing this path did not guarantee success and called for much sacrifice.

      In order to compete with the dizzying sums lavished by our competitors we had to ensure that every single pound spent was put to use and that nothing was wasted. That entailed moving players on who were not providing value for their contracts. It meant spending money on targets we needed rather than spending just for the sake of it. It mandated that we we ruthless, bold and efficient with all of our dealings and that risks would have to be taken to outsmart our competitors.

      None of this would be easy and it would require unity and support from within the club in order to have a slight chance of success.

      But instead, we find more and more voices who seek any opportunity to disparage the owners or the manager. We find more support for sentimentality rather than hard-headed financial or footballing sense. We find voices supporting our ambitions shouted down in a miasma of negativity and pessimism.

      I was struck by the following, utterly depressing, post by Bigmick on another thread challenging the manager to get himself off the hook of supporter opinion:


       Listen to us. He isn't on no hook, what have we become? This is our manager we're talking about here. Even in the past when I've totally disagreed with things our managers have done, I've never ever relished putting the boot in to anything like the same extent as some of the people these days.

      Well I believe the time has come to make a choice about where this club is going. The time has come to either back the project we are trying to undertake here or to sit on the sidelines and carp. To support our principles or to rail against them.

      Make your choice but be in no doubt; if FSG and Brendan are ultimately successful in bringing this club back to where it should be it will be despite a section of the so-called "supporters" not because of them.

      Those fans who have called for their heads at every turn, or accused them of "bullshitting" or invented conspiracy theories would do well to remember the words of the great man after which this thread is named.


      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #1: Jul 29, 2013 10:28:19 pm
      One sentence to kill this whole thread.

      Tom Werner.

      'We have the money to compete with any club in the world'.

      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #2: Jul 29, 2013 10:33:45 pm

      Although I'm sure you would have much rather he'd said - we can't compete with the Man Citys/ Monacos/ Chelseas / PSGs of this world I think it's pretty clear which side of the fence you're on.

      Remember - don't go changing your mind at the end of the season though.
      bigears
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #3: Jul 29, 2013 10:40:42 pm
      This thread is like the Spanish inquisition Carlos , it's like we're heretics  , well if we are we have reason to be .
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #4: Jul 29, 2013 10:41:05 pm
      Although I'm sure you would have much rather he'd said - we can't compete with the Man Citys/ Monacos/ Chelseas / PSGs of this world I think it's pretty clear which side of the fence you're on.

      Remember - don't go changing your mind at the end of the season though.

      The side of the fence ?

      I'm a Liverpool supporter mate have been for 30 years, not a Brendan Rodgers or FSG supporter,  apologies if that IRKs the F**k out of you.

      I haven't bullshitted the fans.

      When Tom Werner actually said that statement the first thing that popped into my mind was.



      Now if you are suggesting I should support FSG whilst we have a net spend of just over £2m on the back of the biggest premier league tv money deal ever whilst moving on one of our top players for 'Financial reasons', I'll have to decline.

      I'll stick to supporting my club.

      You want to use an actual quote by the great man.

      At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques

      Rodgers  broke that  lying to us.

      « Last Edit: Jul 29, 2013 10:47:59 pm by RedLFCBlood »
      RedWilly
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #5: Jul 29, 2013 10:46:03 pm
      Don't know why you bothered making this thread, because it can't be for debate. We all know how you respond to anyone who disagrees with you - even if they make well reasoned points, as many have done who have valid concerns about FSG.
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #6: Jul 29, 2013 10:47:56 pm

      That's fine mate, it's your prerogative.

      But don't put up all these posts calling the owners and the manager bullshitters and shysters and denigrating every decision they make in August then try to claim any part of the success they bring (if they do) in May.

      Be man enough to stick to your guns and acknowledge that success will be despite you not because of you.
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #7: Jul 29, 2013 10:49:50 pm
      Don't know why you bothered making this thread, because it can't be for debate. We all know how you respond to anyone who disagrees with you - even if they make well reasoned points, as many have done who have valid concerns about FSG.

      Always happy to indulge in well-reasoned debate, I'm sorry the alternate point of view irks you.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #8: Jul 29, 2013 10:50:27 pm
      Be man enough to stick to your guns and acknowledge that success will be despite you not because of you.

      What if come May were no further forward ?

      Will you be man enough to admit you're a condescending w**ker ?

      bigears
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #9: Jul 29, 2013 10:53:15 pm
      That's fine mate, it's your prerogative.

      But don't put up all these posts calling the owners and the manager bullshitters and shysters and denigrating every decision they make in August then try to claim any part of the success they bring (if they do) in May.

      Be man enough to stick to your guns and acknowledge that success will be despite you not because of you.
      And if by criticising them we motivate them to change their direction and invest heavier leading to us getting CL spot will you piss off then .
      chats
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #10: Jul 29, 2013 10:53:17 pm
      Am I missing something here?

      So basically you're saying if we have concerns about the owners or Brendan we shouldn't be enjoying any success the club has this coming season?
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #11: Jul 29, 2013 10:55:00 pm
      What if come May were no further forward ?

      Will you be man enough to admit you're a condescending w**ker ?

      Ha ha ha I'm happy to admit that now - doesn't mean I'm wrong though :)

      If we're "no further forward" you have to consider the alternative  - what would you like - no owners, Russian/Arab oligarchs or debt-leveraged businessmen like H&G/Glazers?

      League success isn't the sole arbiter of whether or not we have made the right decision with this ownership model or how we go about things.
      bigears
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #12: Jul 29, 2013 10:55:42 pm
      Am I missing something here?

      So basically you're saying if we have concerns about the owners or Brendan we shouldn't be enjoying any success the club has this coming season?
      You'll be excommunicated mate .
      Billy1
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #13: Jul 29, 2013 10:56:13 pm


      Remember - don't go changing your mind at the end of the season though.
      I hope the same applys to you,Do you think that the many good RED supporters are so fickle that they would stop supporting LIVERPOOL just because we drew or lost.We might get angry at the way we drew or lost but we would not stop supporting the REDS.I would suggest you look at some of the attendances at Anfield when we werein the old 2nd division in the 1950s and you will see the support for L.F.C. never wavered.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #14: Jul 29, 2013 10:59:52 pm
      League success isn't the sole arbiter of whether or not we have made the right decision with this ownership model or how we go about things.

      Is it not and here was me thinking we were a football  club  and that league success was the only arbiter of how successful our ownership model is.

      Bottom line is Carlos, I'm a football fan, I'll  always measure our success in how we do in the league, not what the bank balance says.

      £2m net spend, biggest TV money deal ever,  Balls in FSG court and Rodgers needs to stop telling porky pies.
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #15: Jul 29, 2013 11:05:16 pm
      Am I missing something here?

      So basically you're saying if we have concerns about the owners or Brendan we shouldn't be enjoying any success the club has this coming season?

      No it's perfectly legitimate to have concerns or questions about what we are doing.

      But we're in a situation no matter WHAT the manager, for example, does he is being accused of being a "bullshitter" or even a "liar". Any excuse will be taken to latch onto a comment or statement to show him in a bad light or question his motivation, intelligence or sanity.

      And not just over one decision - over EVERY decision.

      Surely, at the end of all that, you can't expect people who have been doing that to share in any success he might bring?

      That why Shanks made the quote that is the title of the thread.
      RedWilly
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #16: Jul 29, 2013 11:07:37 pm
      Always happy to indulge in well-reasoned debate, I'm sorry the alternate point of view irks you.
      The alternate point of view doesn't irk me at all. You're condescending, belittling nature to anyone who disagrees is what irks me and you've proved it in this thread already, with your claims that fans shouldn't be allowed to enjoy success if they have any concerns about the owners. 

      So again - I don't see the point of you making the thread.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #17: Jul 29, 2013 11:07:49 pm
      That why Shanks made the quote that is the title of the thread.


      Shanks also said 'At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques'

      Rodgers broke that  holy trinity when he started lying to the fans.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #18: Jul 29, 2013 11:20:17 pm
      Appears Rodgers has form for telling porky pies.

      Quote
      Brendan Rodgers

      As I said, you know, I'm 100% committed to Watford, you know, new season, new targets, new players.

      I'm offended when people question my integrity about the Reading job, you know. It upsets me. I'm loyal, 100% committed.

      One week later he was unveiled as non other than Reading boss.
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #19: Jul 29, 2013 11:23:59 pm
      The alternate point of view doesn't irk me at all. You're condescending, belittling nature to anyone who disagrees is what irks me and you've proved it in this thread already, with your claims that fans shouldn't be allowed to enjoy success if they have any concerns about the owners. 

      So again - I don't see the point of you making the thread.

      Well if you actually bothered to read what I wrote you'd see that fans having "concerns" is quite different to fans acting in the way I described and then comprehension might blossom.

      As for being condescending or belittling - I'm happy to give as good as I get although I'm rarely as insulting to various posters as they are to me - nevertheless - like I sai always happy to debate week reasoned points.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #20: Jul 29, 2013 11:25:22 pm
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #21: Jul 29, 2013 11:27:32 pm
      Appears Rodgers has form for telling porky pies.

      One week later he was unveiled as non other than Reading boss.

      Great - so you've managed to establish that our manager is a lying charlatan who has no respect for contracts and is a yes-man for the money grabbing shysters who own the club. Well done.

      Given that you have now achieved what you set out to I presume you won't be claiming any of their eventual success - if they achieve any - is due in any way to your "support" then?
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win.
      Reply #22: Jul 29, 2013 11:28:43 pm
      Bottom line is if these owners can't take us forward,  then they aren't the right owners for us!
      Of course we won't know if this is the case for a few years, all we can do is judge them on their actions in the meantime.
      Honestly, "the whole FSG saved us" speech has run it's course.
      The squad at the end of this transfer window will tell us a lot about their ambition, so far its been a money saving exercise with more goings than comings.
      Still time to redeem themselves with the right signings, but it won't change the fact that they are never here to face the music!

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