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      "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."

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      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #23: Jul 29, 2013 11:31:26 pm
      Great - so you've managed to establish that our manager is a lying charlatan who has no respect for contracts and is a yes-man for the money grabbing shysters who own the club. Well done.

      Given that you have now achieved what you set out to I presume you won't be claiming any of their eventual success - if they achieve any - is due in any way to your "support" then?

      I'll support my club and celebrate in all its glories and wallow in all of its failures, FSG no FSG, Brendan Rodgers,  No Brendan Rodgers, just as I have  for 30 years, is that ok with you super fan ?
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #24: Jul 29, 2013 11:45:56 pm
      Ha ha so if all the things you have spent 27, 833 posts bitching and moaning about turn out to be wrong you will be happy to conveniently forget your opposition and pretend you supported them all along. That's what the thread is about - sticking by your convictions.

      In short - it won't be OK with me.

      If we win the league or produce some magic in the cup or hammer a team 6-0 I will delight in pointing out our success to you and everyone else who stood in the way of making it possible.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #25: Jul 29, 2013 11:46:34 pm
      Bottom line is Carlos, I'm a football fan, I'll  always measure our success in how we do in the league, not what the bank balance says.


      I have to ask this and I'm sorry, I know it upsets some so very much and yes the cup runs were great and he shouldn't have been sacked, what was your position, given what you posted in this thread, when KK delivered our worst league performance since three points for a win came in?
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #26: Jul 29, 2013 11:48:03 pm
      I have to ask this and I'm sorry, I know it upsets some so very much and yes the cup runs were great and he shouldn't have been sacked, what was your position, given what you posted in this thread, when KK delivered our worst league performance since three points for a win came in?

      +1 for an incisive question Rod.
      Dannylfc
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #27: Jul 29, 2013 11:48:08 pm
      I remember the days when we were locked in a court battle, mountains of debt & screaming for the club to be run legitimately & self sufficient. What we seemingly wouldn't give for an oil tycoon now, eh?

      I am getting more & more concerned, don't get me wrong, but we're not even out of July yet. If we havent dipped in the coffers by the close of the transfer window, the divide within the fanbase will become a lot more one sided.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #28: Jul 29, 2013 11:49:15 pm
      Ha ha so if all the things you have spent 27, 833 posts bitching and moaning about turn out to be wrong you will be happy to conveniently forget your opposition and pretend you supported them all along. That's what the thread is about - sticking by your convictions.

      But then I haven't spent all my time bitching and moaning in 27,833 posts, I'm usually quite positive.

      But I'm  also a realist, I wouldn't call Brendan out on being a bull shi**er if he never gave me the Ammunition to.
      bigmick
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #29: Jul 29, 2013 11:50:43 pm
      This is a thread which is destined to end in wars. Everyone on here is a genuine fan who wants the best for the club, we just differ sometimes in how to get there. I'm sure everyone will celebrate if we do well and so they should, lets face it we've waited long enough.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #30: Jul 29, 2013 11:52:30 pm
      I have to ask this and I'm sorry, I know it upsets some so very much and yes the cup runs were great and he shouldn't have been sacked, what was your position, given what you posted in this thread, when KK delivered our worst league performance since three points for a win came in?

      I thought it was a poor season Rodders but not once  did I call for him to be sacked, same as Rodgers last was a poor season and I haven't called for him to be sacked, I've simply questioned Rodgers 'Integrity and Honesty' and no one but Rodgers himself has given me the ammunition to do so.

      Infact I've only ever called for one LFC managers head and that was Hodgson's and given half the chance, I'd have cut that c**t off myself.
      « Last Edit: Jul 29, 2013 11:57:47 pm by RedLFCBlood »
      Roddenberry
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #31: Jul 30, 2013 12:00:44 am
      I thought it was a poor season Rodders but not once  did I call for him to be sacked, same as Rodgers last was a poor season and I haven't called for him to be sacked, I've simply questioned Rodgers 'Integrity and Honesty' and no one but Rodgers himself has given me the ammunition to do so.

      Infact I've only ever called for one LFC  manaers head and that was Hodgsons and  given half the chance, I'd have cut that c**t off myself.

      I understand that, but I don't recall a manager in my time that hasn't lied or to be a tad kinder,obfuscated.  Maybe we're all just too sensitive nowadays.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #32: Jul 30, 2013 12:04:52 am
      I understand that, but I don't recall a manager in my time that hasn't lied or to be a tad kinder,obfuscated.  Maybe we're all just too sensitive nowadays.

      Maybe we are following H&G who knows ?

      But Rodgers has a long way to go for me to take him at face value again.
      Scotia
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #33: Jul 30, 2013 12:25:29 am
      When FSG took control of the club, they can hardly have known the size of the task that awaited them.

      Despite all the mockery they had taken for not being "football people" or not "understanding the game" it had become more painfully apparent with every passing year that the previous regimes, who qualified for both these monikers, failed to bring home the League Championship since the 1989-90 season.

      In comparison, Everton, the team we love to mock, last won the same title in 1986-87, which is a damning statistic. Yet how could it have come to pass that England's most successful club had fallen so far from grace?

      Part of the reason is that our winning habit was lost through complacency. All dynasties end and all regimes pass - like weeds forcing their way through tiny gaps in concrete, complacency seeps into every foundation upon which success is built and causes fatal cracks which causes the whole edifice to come crumbling down.

      Instead of sticking to the principles which had helped guide us to success previously, we became lazy and decadent and thought that success would arrive just because of our name and our history.


      We forgot that this club is built on a special relationship between the supporters and the manager and that nothing can be achieved without that support.

      We forgot that players need time and patience to bed into a team and to learn their craft.

      We forgot that the team comes first and that no individual is greater than the collective.

      And we forgot the crucial role that money plays in professional sports, this from the team that was the first to put a sponsor on our shirts.


      When FSG bought our club, we were rescued from potential armageddon in more ways than one. Without backing from an owner you could quickly discount us from any further attempts at the title - or even  of staying in the league. Gate receipts and TV deals only take you so far in a world where the average employee is earning tens of thousands of pounds a week.

      And if we had been bought by an Arab or Russian oligarch, our club would have been used as a plaything, with all our history and culture tossed aside at the whim of an individual, as we have seen in the blue halves of Manchester and London. Possibly the worst option of all we narrowly survived - which was the debt-leveraged buyout forcing a millstone around the club's neck and which could easily have lead to bankruptcy.

      Somehow, we ended up with the best possible option available in which we had a self-sustaining model where the owners didn't take money out of the club but instead grew rich by making the club rich and thereby increasing their worth.

      Of course, choosing this path did not guarantee success and called for much sacrifice.

      In order to compete with the dizzying sums lavished by our competitors we had to ensure that every single pound spent was put to use and that nothing was wasted. That entailed moving players on who were not providing value for their contracts. It meant spending money on targets we needed rather than spending just for the sake of it. It mandated that we we ruthless, bold and efficient with all of our dealings and that risks would have to be taken to outsmart our competitors.

      None of this would be easy and it would require unity and support from within the club in order to have a slight chance of success.

      But instead, we find more and more voices who seek any opportunity to disparage the owners or the manager. We find more support for sentimentality rather than hard-headed financial or footballing sense. We find voices supporting our ambitions shouted down in a miasma of negativity and pessimism.

      I was struck by the following, utterly depressing, post by Bigmick on another thread challenging the manager to get himself off the hook of supporter opinion:

      Well I believe the time has come to make a choice about where this club is going. The time has come to either back the project we are trying to undertake here or to sit on the sidelines and carp. To support our principles or to rail against them.

      Make your choice but be in no doubt; if FSG and Brendan are ultimately successful in bringing this club back to where it should be it will be despite a section of the so-called "supporters" not because of them.

      Those fans who have called for their heads at every turn, or accused them of "bullshitting" or invented conspiracy theories would do well to remember the words of the great man after which this thread is named.




      What is this thread for?
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #34: Jul 30, 2013 12:32:57 am
      But then I haven't spent all my time bitching and moaning in 27,833 posts, I'm usually quite positive.

      But I'm  also a realist, I wouldn't call Brendan out on being a bull shi**er if he never gave me the Ammunition to.

      Well I have to admit it a viewpoint I find puzzling.

      Hodges on for example, I found very hard to support - from his personality to his tactics to his transfers he wasn't, for me, a "Liverpool" manager.

      If he had managed to win the FA cup therefore, using long ball tactics to allow Carlton Cole to bang home the winner I would have found it hard to muster up much enthusiasm for that vision of football and harder still if I had openly criticised him.

      To be honest, I would have found it downright hypocritical.

      But I suppose that was also my point about being "decadent" with success. Real success requires sacrifice - you can't have your cake and eat it.

      With Pepe for example, as much as I loved him and everything he has done for the club, I think taking some responsibility for cheering his successor mandates having the balls to stick with the decision to move him on in the first place.
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #35: Jul 30, 2013 12:34:16 am

      Is that a philosophical queston, an existential one, a literal one or a rhetorical one?
      Scotia
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #36: Jul 30, 2013 12:38:07 am
      Is that a philosophical queston, an existential one, a literal one or a rhetorical one?

      Any one you feel comfortable / qualified on - start with the literal though if you don't mind.

      Thank you.

      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #37: Jul 30, 2013 12:45:49 am
      It's to discuss whether or not supporters who oppose the manager /owners should be entitled to share in the eventual success that said hierarchy brings.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #38: Jul 30, 2013 12:51:20 am
      It's to discuss whether or not supporters who oppose the manager /owners should be entitled to share in the eventual success that said hierarchy brings.

      All fans share in the glory and defeat, regardless of personal opinions.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #39: Jul 30, 2013 01:33:50 am
      So if you go the game and get behind the team, singing and getting behind them even when we draw and lose then come on here chatting sh*t letting off steam slagging all and F***ing sundry, cos we're loathed to do it through the actual game, can we still share in the eventual success, should we win something?

      Just checking!!
      FL Red
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #40: Jul 30, 2013 02:27:56 am
      I can't seem to figure out how this thread is going to do anything but further divide us all.

      Maybe we should be coming up with ways to "come together"??  :confused-smiley-013:
      vulcan_red
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #41: Jul 30, 2013 03:17:23 am
      Rodgers out!!!! FSG out!!!! Suarez out!!! I don't want answers I want ACTION!
      RedWilly
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #42: Jul 30, 2013 05:25:32 am
      It's to discuss whether or not supporters who oppose the manager /owners should be entitled to share in the eventual success that said hierarchy brings.
      Isn't it you always saying there's no player bigger than the club? Surely the same applies to manager/owners. We all support the club, not any one individual and this is just the most outrageous opinion I've ever read on here.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #43: Jul 30, 2013 06:24:56 am
      Fancy a difference of opinion on an internet forum ay?

      Things will get discussed and arguments will be had but when it comes down to it we all want the same thing and away from the forum we all support and back the team.

      Talk about being dramatic.


      Long sentence alert!

      It's about the view of Carlos differing with the majority of posters but him then saying that the opposite of his opinion is not supporting the team so if you don't agree with his view on this internet forum you can't enjoy any success the team may have in the future because any form of discussion that doesn't result in us saying everything is fine and F***ing dandy isn't support and shouldn't be allowed.
      « Last Edit: Jul 30, 2013 06:32:28 am by what-a-hit-son »
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #44: Jul 30, 2013 06:41:00 am
      Isn't it you always saying there's no player bigger than the club? Surely the same applies to manager/owners. We all support the club, not any one individual and this is just the most outrageous opinion I've ever read on here.

      Really? Well I suppose that's a compliment of sorts.

      But it's hardly outrageous.

      Think about those fans who were booing Rafa when we drew with West Ham to go top of the table. That growing negativity eventually resulted in Rafa leaving the club. I don't think the board could have got rid of him if every fan was united in keeping him here.

      Had Rafa managed to stay and win the title in 2009 - do you think those that booed him and led to him leaving were entitled to share in his success?

      Isn't it ridiculous that the owners, manager and players at LFC have all these high ideals to live upto yet the fan can act exactly as he or she wishes and all the negativity, the  insults and the brickbats can be conveniently forgotten if the club manages to achieve anything?

      In my opinion that's completely wrong - success has been achieved despite those people not because of them - that much should be self-evident.

      Again, just to emphasise, we are not talking about fans having legitimate concerns - we are talking about people who will use any excuse to cast our manager or owners as liars, bullshitters, charlatans and have an obvious agenda which they prosecute against them no matter what the evidence.
      Carlos Qiqabal
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      Re: "If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."
      Reply #45: Jul 30, 2013 06:49:30 am

      /snip/
      Long sentence alert!

      It's about the view of Carlos differing with the majority of posters but him then saying that the opposite of his opinion is not supporting the team so if you don't agree with his view on this internet forum you can't enjoy any success the team may have in the future because any form of discussion that doesn't result in us saying everything is fine and f**king dandy isn't support and shouldn't be allowed.

      No it's not Helm, differences of opinion are fine, debate is fine, legitimate concerns are fine - but if you spend a season constantly slagging off the manager as a liar, bullshitter, fantasist and charlatan who doesn't know what he is doing and that you have lost all patience with - when that manager wins the Premiership then it is the height of hypocrisy to suddenly forget your  opinions and revel in his success as though you supported him.

      If you're going to have an agenda against FSG and Brendan (not doubts or legitimate concerns but an agenda that is constantly pushed come rain or shine) then be man enough to stick by your opinions whether they succeed or is that expecting too much?

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