"If you can't support us when we draw or lose, don't support us when we win."

Is this direct at me?

If you're going to have an agenda against FSG and Brendan (not doubts or legitimate concerns but an agenda that is constantly pushed come rain or shine) then be man enough to stick by your opinions whether they succeed or is that expecting too much?

Or was it just this that was direct at me?

No it's not Helm

Is this direct at me?

Or was it just this that was direct at me?

"You" was a general you not you personally.

As you know what-a-helm-son is my affectionate nom de plum for you, you little rascal 

If you're going to have an agenda against FSG and Brendan (not doubts or legitimate concerns but an agenda that is constantly pushed come rain or shine) then be man enough to stick by your opinions whether they succeed or is that expecting too much?

I use the 'agenda' based argument myself but when I strip it down I very much doubt anybody has an agenda towards anybody. People having genuine faith and people having genuine concerns are what I see really. One side is calling it wrong though but I don't think that should eliminate the people with concerns from any celebrations we may have in the near future.

Just a wrong call, that's all it would be.

EDIT Just for the record I don't have a 'nom de plum' for you so I think I'll just call you c**t.

 

Weird thread.

I support the club 100% and want success.

Exactly the reason I question some decisions being made by FSG and the manager.

I have to ask this and I'm sorry, I know it upsets some so very much and yes the cup runs were great and he shouldn't have been sacked, what was your position, given what you posted in this thread, when KK delivered our worst league performance since three points for a win came in?

Probably the same position as yours berry.

He didn't want him sacked and he didn't believe Kenny should be saked - the "performance" therefore becomes irrelevant. It's very simple to understand.

The only difference between blood, me and you is that we actually meant it when we said it, you didn't. Otherwise you would have realised, long before now, that if you wanted Kenny to stay, you are by default, accepting what went before.

It's laughable that our support is being questioned by two fsg fans who stuck and stick the knife into  kenny  every chance they get. 

This thread seems to be a little self righteous Carlos. The one thing you can't do on a forum is insinuate that anyone who disagree's with you is wrong, especially considering most people's opinion differs from yours!
But then again, maybe you are more enlightened than most.

Have you considered starting a cult!!!

Weird thread.

Designed to create further division and wind others up. It brings cuntiness to a whole new level. Wumming of the highest order. 

Designed to create further division and wind others up. It brings cuntiness to a whole new level. Wumming of the highest order. 

Indeed.

Which is why I'll play no further part in it.

Plenty of crticism of FSG, Ayre and Brendan still to be done elsewhere 

What has the thread title got to do with the dross you typed in the opening post, Carlos?

Shouldn't the title be more along the lines of "If you dont support FSG, you dont support Liverpool"

Whilst I agree with many of your points Carlos you have made one big statement that really confuses me...

We forgot that this club is built on a special relationship between the supporters and the manager and that nothing can be achieved without that support.

I too beleive this is the case, and that unless we stick together as a family we will never reach the dizzy heights where we once were. However, how can the manager and the fans have this 'special relationship' when the owners deliberatly scupper it. We had that special relationship with Kenny did we not, then wham - no hand shake and the sack. We begin to build that relationship with Brendan then wham, players loaned out without his concent, or the players.

How can we grow together, win together and lose together when it is almost totally apparent that NESV care more about the bottom line than the fans, and indeed the club..? We, at the start of the transfer windon by BR's own admission had one 'key' target - that chap from Shakhtar at a fee of circa £20 Million. We failed to land him, yet didnt spend this money - since then we have sat here doing apparently nothing. A club that we can see needs improving before the start of the season and what comes out;

• Ayre dicking about in a hotel on Fowlers shoulders..!
  Suarez, about to leave to a rival for our silent owner to tweet 'what are they smoking at the emirates'

Whilst this was going on we have a legend of the club being loaned out without even his concent - it seems clear to me that Ayre was higher than a kite in that room making stupid deals with old managers. Liverpool is a family - we should remeber that and conduct our business in a way that is befitting - would you treat family like we treated Pepe, a loyal and dedicated servent to the club over 8 years..? If so, then you can take your 'hard business accument' and whistle - I would rather be mid table but loving my club and seeing us grow than near the top winning nothing too but treating everyone like dirt to scrabble for 1 higher in league position (which is more than likley where we will finish if we are not careful).

You, and NESV need to remeber that no one is bigger than the club - but each week 40,000 people enter the stadium and without them there is no club. That we as the fans make the club what it is - and will always make it what it is. That we expect the club to act in a manner that we all call 'the Liverpool way' and that this means we look after each other. That we invest in players as the only important thing is winning on the field, not in the bank. That we will not go bust trying a bit harder to win, and that we take risks to win. If we fail, we will fail together - however we must try first....

This thread seems to be a little self righteous Carlos. The one thing you can't do on a forum is insinuate that anyone who disagree's with you is wrong, especially considering most people's opinion differs from yours!
But then again, maybe you are more enlightened than most.

Have you considered starting a cult!!!

That ia a problem with forums posters can get info on the net too easily and present an argument to show their point of view.Now in the case of Carlos Qiqabal he tells us that we have no right to support the REDS when we win if we cant support them when they lose or draw.He needs to understand genuine supporters do get upset when we play badly and lose or draw and are entitled to voice their opinion.Finally wouldn't it be nice to know the history of Carlos with Liverpool,when he first went to Anfield then maybe I could understand his qualification to ask RED supporters the thread title.

It's to discuss whether or not supporters who oppose the manager /owners should be entitled to share in the eventual success that said hierarchy brings.

where you on the Kop in the 70's and 80's .plenty of dissenting voices about players and tactics but I seem to remember a bit of success along the way. During that period before the internet and forums you could not comment on a player or a team unless you actually went to the game.

This thread seems to be a little self righteous Carlos. The one thing you can't do on a forum is insinuate that anyone who disagree's with you is wrong, especially considering most people's opinion differs from yours!
But then again, maybe you are more enlightened than most.

Have you considered starting a cult!!!

Its OK - nearly very poster on here insists they are right (you are one of the few noble exceptions).

A few people have already posted on here about what a cult I am (think that's what was asterisked out anyway)

That ia a problem with forums posters can get info on the net too easily and present an argument to show their point of view.Now in the case of Carlos Qiqabal he tells us that we have no right to support the REDS when we win if we cant support them when they lose or draw.He needs to understand genuine supporters do get upset when we play badly and lose or draw and are entitled to voice their opinion.Finally wouldn't it be nice to know the history of Carlos with Liverpool,when he first went to Anfield then maybe I could understand his qualification to ask RED supporters the thread title.

I don't think he has read your post Billy.

Designed to create further division and wind others up. It brings cuntiness to a whole new level. Wumming of the highest order. 

Right - so the people calling out manager a "bullshitter" and "a liar" get a pass and are arguing they should take some part in his eventual success for their "support" whereas I am "creating division" and "wumming" for starting a thread to support him. The manager of our own football club.

John Henry @ John Henry "What are those posters on LFC Reds smoking?"

Right - so the people calling out manager a "bullshitter" and "a liar" get a pass and are arguing they should take some part in his eventual success for their "support" whereas I am "creating division" and "wumming" for starting a thread to support him. The manager of our own football club.

John Henry @ John Henry "What are those posters on LFC Reds smoking?"

A heavy dose of f***in reality

Whilst I agree with many of your points Carlos you have made one big statement that really confuses me...
/snip/

Thanks for the considered reply PPB.

I would point out that Pepe couldn't have moved to Napoli without his consent since he has a contract with us. In fact his agent was saying in mid July that it was an option he was agreeable to. It's also unlikely he would have gone with discussion with Rafa.

Also - unless you know something the rest of us don't - it's likely Rodgers wanted to live him on once the Napoli offer came in.

Carlos, reading your original post, it's clear that you're less of a supporter and more of a zombie.

A true supporter wants what is best for the club.  The very nature of the word "best" suggests a degree of comparison; i.e., if something is "best" then it is better than something else, which is better than something which is bad.

So if you are a supporter, who wants what is best for the club, then you would be an absolute fool to think that it's impossible for "not good" things to happen to said club.

And we really don't need to look too far to try to imagine what something "bad" could be.  Only a few years ago we were nearly out of existence due to owners who had promised us the world.  If you care about this club, you would never want that to happen again.  And if you never want that to happen again then you don't just blindly have faith in the next owners that they will be different.  How ridiculous.

We all are hopeful that we're going in the right direction, but some people have questions and doubts.  And that's sort of the entire point of a forum.  To discuss things going on at the club.  If everything were so black and white, then why would there even be a need for a forum?  to just have a thread for, say, Rodgers, where everyone says one after another, "wow, great decision by Rodgers!"--"no, I think even more deeply that it was a great decision!"--"well out of all of you I think the most deeply that it was a great decision!"

That seems to be what you want.  And you have the audacity to say that those who are not as blindly faithful as you are should be left out of the proverbial party if we start winning?  how ridiculous!

You should be thanking the rest of us.  Would you like to know why?  because we are the true supporters, the ones who care for the club and realize that sometimes mistakes are made and need to be addressed.

You, on the other hand: you are the type of supporter who, even if you could somehow objectively know that our owners were intentionally, maliciously trying to lead us down the wrong path, you would still say "let's support them!"  Because to you it is more of a dick measuring contest to see who can "support" the most, without saying "gee, maybe this isn't the right way to go about things."

After H&G, no Liverpool supporter should ever have that kind of blind faith in anyone at the club ever again.  We came to the brink because of that.  We should support, give time and have patience, but sticking our head in the sand and pretending that those in charge will miraculously lead us to the promise land merely by virtue of being in their positions is absurd.

So we ask questions.  Maybe they come to something.  Maybe they come to nothing.  But it's part of being a supporter who cares, and maybe you should give that a little more thought before you arrogantly condescend people for not being as "supportive" as you (think) you are.

 Look, I agree that at times the criticism of the manager is a bit OTT and knee jerkish. They put the boot into Brendan over the Reina "not being told affair" for example, but as I've said a few times I think whether you ask him first what he thinks about a loan or whether you tell him that you've accepted their terms before he speaks to Napoli is really splitting hairs in my view. Equally, Brendan would need the longest arms known to man to get an arm around Pepe's shoulders from the other side of the World, but ultimately it's all understandable. Pepe was a great player for us and a great man, so it's only natural people are going to want to kick the cat when he gets moved on.

 Equally, I think people are probably (and hopefully) over-reacting to our NET spend at this stage, as there's still plenty of time to go yet. Once again though, completely understandable and all of us if we're honest are hoping for a big signing or two.

 The "liar" and "bullshitter" stuff is once again OTT, and more disrespectful to a LFC manager than I would ever go myself, but once again I get it. I think Brendan has fairly obviously had stuff done behind his back while he isn't looking, and as such if you re-read his interviews he's shown up to be not forseeing what will actually happen. I think it's to his credit that h takes all the abuse and the mockery on the chin, sticking to his "it was my decision" mantra but I totally get how others see it differently.

 It was ever thus with football. Much like the way I differ completely from those who wanted Rafa back, and differ totally fro those who wanted Kenny out, everyone has opinions. Opinions are like @arseholes in that everyone has one, coincidently all forums have an @rsehole too. Work that one out.

It's to discuss whether or not supporters who oppose the manager /owners should be entitled to share in the eventual success that said hierarchy brings.

As I thought - I'll leave you to this little parallel universe.

Further comment only suggests credence in a flawed proposition.

I don't think he has read your post Billy.

I wonder if I ever stood alongside Carlos on the OLD KOP when you could discuss the manager and players face to face with another RED .

Not the greatest of threads this.

Looks to me like a topic intended to antagonise and cause division.

The time has come to either back the project we are trying to undertake here or to sit on the sidelines and carp.

I'm guessing you still have to grasp the fundamentals of a forum.  Where people discuss matters sometimes with vastly differening opinions.

You say

The time has come to either back the project we are trying to undertake here or to sit on the sidelines and carp.

This is not the project of the fans (if that's the 'we' you are referring to).

I don't know of any fans on here who are considering an exit strategy from supporting the club in the next few years.

I don't think any fans would have considered increasing ticket prices by £1.5M a year in a season in which we would receive an extra £35M a year TV money.

Many fans are indeed beginning to wonder exactly where the money is going.  The football season starts in less than three weeks and many, like myself, will be looking at the players in and the players out, and wondering exactly where the owners ambitions lie.

At the minute, to me, it looks more like readying the club for a sale than trying to win the league.  And that is the exact polar opposite of what the supporters (or customers as they consider) want.

I wonder if I ever stood alongside Carlos on the OLD KOP when you could discuss the manager and players face to face with another RED .

I think back in the day you wouldn't be allowed on the KOP if your name was Carlos that would be more of a paddock type of name.