Newcastle 2 - 2 Liverpool - post match frustration

Interesting that people think passion is something that only lacks in those that are clearly not committed to the cause. There are different levels of passion, determination and will to win in us all. That's why some fail to succeed where others strive. I question our current side's passion and determination without having to question if they're trying, they're just not trying hard enough and it doesn't mean enough, or hurt enough to some of those when we lose / draw.

Henderson for example, you wouldn't know if we'd won or lost when he gives an interview, the same goes for the way he plays. Some would label that as consistent, that's fair, but you have to have that extra gear, those reserves to call upon when needed. The greatest boxers dig deepest when times are at their most tough and we don't have nearly enough fighters with that grit and determination. Gerrard is the finest example of a born winner, when things are going against him he generally steps up his game, against the bigger teams he generally performs his best and when the challenge is at it's strongest he does not shy from the responsibility. Agger has this same mentality, Suarez has it, that's why you see him lash out and do foolish things, because losing hurts and so it should. Pulling on that shirt is a responsibility and a commitment, unfortunately that message only conveys itself to those that truly buy into what Liverpool Football Club is.

Brendan has just been tempering expectations in a recent piece and touching on mentality (http://liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/147477-br-fans-can-see-we-re-moving-forward) and I have to disagree with him, because when times are at their most tough I see many of our lads heads drop. Also when expectation is heaped upon them, they often crumble and that is one of our biggest issues.

Brendan says he wants to bring in young, hungry guys, all well and good, but the likes of Aspas, Borini, Allen have cost the same as experienced hungry guys. Resting on Coutinho and Sturridge wont last long, the best bit of business we did this summer was Toure, hardly a young guy, but still hungry, talented and no transfer fee.

So when I question passion, I don't question the fact that a player is "trying" it's the level they're willing to push themselves to win, it's the next level they can't find when we need it most and it's the acceptance of failure rather than belief that we lack far too often. If you can't see that then fair enough, but I'm sure many can.

We have mind readers in our midst. 

We have mind readers in our midst. 

Brilliant, can he tell me what's going to win the 3:30 at Newmarket?

Interesting that people think passion is something that only lacks in those that are clearly not committed to the cause. There are different levels of passion, determination and will to win in us all. That's why some fail to succeed where others strive. I question our current side's passion and determination without having to question if they're trying, they're just not trying hard enough and it doesn't mean enough, or hurt enough to some of those when we lose / draw.

Henderson for example, you wouldn't know if we'd won or lost when he gives an interview, the same goes for the way he plays. Some would label that as consistent, that's fair, but you have to have that extra gear, those reserves to call upon when needed. The greatest boxers dig deepest when times are at their most tough and we don't have nearly enough fighters with that grit and determination. Gerrard is the finest example of a born winner, when things are going against him he generally steps up his game, against the bigger teams he generally performs his best and when the challenge is at it's strongest he does not shy from the responsibility. Agger has this same mentality, Suarez has it, that's why you see him lash out and do foolish things, because losing hurts and so it should. Pulling on that shirt is a responsibility and a commitment, unfortunately that message only conveys itself to those that truly buy into what Liverpool Football Club is.

Brendan has just been tempering expectations in a recent piece and touching on mentality (http://liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/147477-br-fans-can-see-we-re-moving-forward) and I have to disagree with him, because when times are at their most tough I see many of our lads heads drop. Also when expectation is heaped upon them, they often crumble and that is one of our biggest issues.

Brendan says he wants to bring in young, hungry guys, all well and good, but the likes of Aspas, Borini, Allen have cost the same as experienced hungry guys. Resting on Coutinho and Sturridge wont last long, the best bit of business we did this summer was Toure, hardly a young guy, but still hungry, talented and no transfer fee.

So when I question passion, I don't question the fact that a player is "trying" it's the level they're willing to push themselves to win, it's the next level they can't find when we need it most and it's the acceptance of failure rather than belief that we lack far too often. If you can't see that then fair enough, but I'm sure many can.

I've always thought that anyone coming out with 'they are not trying' were using the term a little too freely. Of course they are trying. They are trying because they don't like losing, they are trying because they want to keep their place in the team, they are trying because they know if they leave Liverpool for an assumed lack of trying, they'll end up at Stoke or the Championship and therefore having their wages cut in half, they are trying because they don't want to let themselves or their loved ones down

Here's some more astounding logic for you; perhaps they were just crap on the day

Brilliant, can he tell me what's going to win the 3:30 at Newmarket?

You think a mind reader could tell you the result of the 3:30 at Newmarket, good luck with that even if you find one.

You don't need to be a mind reader to judge levels of commitment and passion based on body language.

I've always thought that anyone coming out with 'they are not trying' were using the term a little too freely. Of course they are trying. They are trying because they don't like losing, they are trying because they want to keep their place in the team, they are trying because they know if they leave Liverpool for an assumed lack of trying, they'll end up at Stoke or the Championship and therefore having their wages cut in half, they are trying because they don't want to let themselves or their loved ones down

Here's some more astounding logic for you; perhaps they were just crap on the day

Yes we know what trying is.

There is a difference between trying and passion so you're wrong there (edited since so perhaps you've changed your mind). An example of this would be when couples are often struggling they admit that "we're trying but the passion is gone." If you can't understand that basic difference then I'm at a loss how to demonstrate it any clearer.

The same passion for winning, grit, determination and self-belief is devoid in some of our players. You can notice it simply by the looks that the winners in the side give those they deem to be accepting defeat too easily. This in turn can boil over to frustration or aggression and that's clearly where Suarez struggles mentally but if you can't separate the difference between passion and trying then I guess I should stop with the word salad (I see you edited this out too).

You think a mind reader could tell you the result of the 3:30 at Newmarket, good luck with that even if you find one.

You don't need to be a mind reader to judge levels of commitment and passion based on body language.

Yes we know what trying is.

There is a difference between trying and passion so you're wrong there (edited since so perhaps you've changed your mind). An example of this would be when couples are often struggling they admit that "we're trying but the passion is gone." If you can't understand that basic difference then I'm at a loss how to demonstrate it any clearer.

The same passion for winning, grit, determination and self-belief is devoid in some of our players. You can notice it simply by the looks that the winners in the side give those they deem to be accepting defeat too easily. This in turn can boil over to frustration or aggression and that's clearly where Suarez struggles mentally but if you can't separate the difference between passion and trying then I guess I should stop with the word salad (I see you edited this out too).

I get what you're saying Luke.

Maybe because trying is "hard work" when the passion isn't there but for some "passion" comes naturally so it's not hard work. 

I have it a lot in my line of work mate some of us are always striving to improve ourselves and produce something amazing whereas others are just happy to get the job done to a reasonable standard.

Reasonably happy with the point considering they played their best game of the season and that we were well under par. One thing which is beginning to really get on my nerves though is the terrible finsihing of our squad, bar Suarez and Sturridge. The number of shots that went hopelessly high or wide was cringe worthy for professional footballers. If I was Brendan I'd focus on shooting practice and fine players who shoot over the bar, it's far more effective to have a low skimming ball, as evidenced by Cabaye's fine goal and is it really so hard to lean forward when taking the shot, even if pressured?

You think a mind reader could tell you the result of the 3:30 at Newmarket, good luck with that even if you find one.

You don't need to be a mind reader to judge levels of commitment and passion based on body language.

Yes we know what trying is.

There is a difference between trying and passion so you're wrong there (edited since so perhaps you've changed your mind). An example of this would be when couples are often struggling they admit that "we're trying but the passion is gone." If you can't understand that basic difference then I'm at a loss how to demonstrate it any clearer.

The same passion for winning, grit, determination and self-belief is devoid in some of our players. You can notice it simply by the looks that the winners in the side give those they deem to be accepting defeat too easily. This in turn can boil over to frustration or aggression and that's clearly where Suarez struggles mentally but if you can't separate the difference between passion and trying then I guess I should stop with the word salad (I see you edited this out too).

I changed my text because it was a bit sharp and didn't want to start a slanging match.

Passion, trying, effort, will to win, willpower, grit, determination. Whatever.

You're saying they are not showing passion but they are trying. Or they are trying but not trying enough - because (I assume) you think they lack passion.

I'm saying we've got nothing but your amateur psychological screening of LFC players. You don't know the players, you don't know them mentally, you are only drawing conclusions about them. So all your word salad interpretations of the word 'passion' are meaningless to me. 

Take your comment about Henderson. A couple of interviews with Henderson and you think that he's not trying. Or should I say passion? Yet, every man and his dog who posts here knows that the one thing you do get from Henderson, is a lung busting energetic performance every match. But hey ho, that's just trying (his hardest mind you) and not passion. What extra does passion give you? Have you scientifically measured this to know for sure that being passionate would give Henderson an inch more to his game?

Bollocks

I'll say it again; perhaps they were just a bit sh*te

Last time I went to St James' was when Roy was in charge.  Had to sit with my mate in the home section while we played terrible and Andy F***ing Carroll got the 3rd....  The night of the face rub from the Woyster.

Before the game it was hostile from the NUFC fans, issues regarding the clubs owner, Ashley and the recent sacking of Chris Hughton and selection of that tit Pardew.

Before the game on Sat it was the same type of atmosphere, fan marches etc.  I said to my mate in the pub I can see us losing this, we played god awful and I have to make myself happy with a point.

Lung bursting efforts are great, but if you burst your lungs not producing anything it doesn't much matter. I get what Luke's saying about passion and it seems that way at times to me as well but the bottom line is that sometimes the players just don't play as well as they should and when more than just one or two have a bad game, it makes the entire side look lackluster which translates into people thinking that the team just isn't into it. Sometimes there are games where you just bang your head against the wall the entire day and everything you do just goes wrong. I actually blame Brendan a bit more than I usually do because I feel like if we'd have pressed the bar codes as hard as they pressed us when we had the ball in our own defensive half, we'd have done much better, but the whole game we seemed to just sit back, invite pressure and hope to score on the counter. I don't know if he was trying to give players a rest in that respect or what but it just didn't work and against 10 men we should have been shoving it down their throats.

Lung bursting efforts are great, but if you burst your lungs not producing anything it doesn't much matter.

Agreed. That's what I said, perhaps they just weren't good enough on the day

Take your comment about Henderson. A couple of interviews with Henderson and you think that he's not trying. Or should I say passion? Yet, every man and his dog who posts here knows that the one thing you do get from Henderson, is a lung busting energetic performance every match. But hey ho, that's just trying (his hardest mind you) and not passion. What extra does passion give you? Have you scientifically measured this to know for sure that being passionate would give Henderson an inch more to his game?

You don't need science, it's blatantly obvious.

He runs, to mask the deficiencies in his game. He runs to show he is trying, that much you have right.

Where he could demonstrate a will to win, determination and grit would be in a 50/50 challenge, at which point he has to stop running and can no longer mask his deficiencies and must confront what he lacks. At that point his true mentality is bare for all to see, he lacks self-belief, confidence and does not have the mentality of "I will win". Therefore he also accepts failure too easily in this same moment or as some put it "shits out".

His fear of failure is also obvious and he exposes it in his frustration with himself when he often misses a good opportunity. He will scream at himself and if he could take that moment and apply it positively he'd have a chance, unfortunately he uses it as a tool to perpetuate is problems and the cycle continues. Don't let those obvious examples detract from the fact you think it's "bollocks" it's not like psychology plays a part in your every day life and you, like I have developed an acute understanding of it, whether you've been educated in it or not.

Henderson for example, you wouldn't know if we'd won or lost when he gives an interview, the same goes for the way he plays. Some would label that as consistent, that's fair, but you have to have that extra gear, those reserves to call upon when needed. The greatest boxers dig deepest when times are at their most tough and we don't have nearly enough fighters with that grit and determination. Gerrard is the finest example of a born winner, when things are going against him he generally steps up his game, against the bigger teams he generally performs his best and when the challenge is at it's strongest he does not shy from the responsibility. Agger has this same mentality, Suarez has it, that's why you see him lash out and do foolish things, because losing hurts and so it should. Pulling on that shirt is a responsibility and a commitment, unfortunately that message only conveys itself to those that truly buy into what Liverpool Football Club is.

Brendan has just been tempering expectations in a recent piece and touching on mentality (http://liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/147477-br-fans-can-see-we-re-moving-forward) and I have to disagree with him, because when times are at their most tough I see many of our lads heads drop. Also when expectation is heaped upon them, they often crumble and that is one of our biggest issues.

Brendan says he wants to bring in young, hungry guys, all well and good, but the likes of Aspas, Borini, Allen have cost the same as experienced hungry guys. Resting on Coutinho and Sturridge wont last long, the best bit of business we did this summer was Toure, hardly a young guy, but still hungry, talented and no transfer fee.

So when I question passion, I don't question the fact that a player is "trying" it's the level they're willing to push themselves to win, it's the next level they can't find when we need it most and it's the acceptance of failure rather than belief that we lack far too often. If you can't see that then fair enough, but I'm sure many can.

But that's just Henderson's personality. He give interviews the same way he plays: safe, conservative, eager to please, not really ever going to cause an upset (either on or off the pitch)
 
He's a test-tube modern footballer in many ways: bit dull, bit thick, says and does the right things.
 
I don't think you can use that a stick to beat him with. Not everyone can be that heart-on-sleeve warrior personality. He's pretty inoffensive and quite nice, and that's how he plays football too.

You don't need science, it's blatantly obvious.

He runs, to mask the deficiencies in his game. He runs to show he is trying, that much you have right.

Where he could demonstrate a will to win, determination and grit would be in a 50/50 challenge, at which point he has to stop running and can no longer mask his deficiencies and must confront what he lacks. At that point his true mentality is bare for all to see, he lacks self-belief, confidence and does not have the mentality of "I will win". Therefore he also accepts failure too easily in this same moment or as some put it "shits out".

His fear of failure is also obvious and he exposes it in his frustration with himself when he often misses a good opportunity. He will scream at himself and if he could take that moment and apply it positively he'd have a chance, unfortunately he uses it as a tool to perpetuate is problems and the cycle continues. Don't let those obvious examples detract from the fact you think it's "bollocks" it's not like psychology plays a part in your every day life and you, like I have developed an acute understanding of it, whether you've been educated in it or not.

Fair enough, Jamie Carragher is passion. I dream of a team of Carraghers all that. Fair enough. If that's what you mean, and I think you do, I agree with you. Trouble we have, is that is is very difficult to find players of Jamie's mentality that come from outside Liverpool

We can always throw 'they did not try' or 'they lacked passion' whenever we lose

I get what you're saying Luke.

Maybe because trying is "hard work" when the passion isn't there but for some "passion" comes naturally so it's not hard work. 

I have it a lot in my line of work mate some of us are always striving to improve ourselves and produce something amazing whereas others are just happy to get the job done to a reasonable standard.

I dunno... When fans start banging on about "they just don't care" I normally roll my eyes... Some players may loose faith in their particular roll and become genuinely confused but Imo, its just a pessimistic empty statement ender.. Its clear when it really happens to a player *cough cough Torres cough cough* and is obvious to see.. For me its either Brendan getting it wrong for that particular game (Being outwitted) which could involve the players actually giving 100% or the players F***ing it up completely by not doing their job OR not being able to compute the system of play.. I've rarely felt (even after terrible displays) that the player don't care..?

Trouble we have, is that is is very difficult to find players of Jamie's mentality that come from outside Liverpool

I'm not sure about that. It might matter more, but nobody ever doubted the passion and commitment of a player like SAmi Hyypia, who was Finnish and rarrely looked angry about anything

But that's just Henderson's personality. He give interviews the same way he plays: safe, conservative, eager to please, not really ever going to cause an upset (either on or off the pitch)
 
He's a test-tube modern footballer in many ways: bit dull, bit thick, says and does the right things.
 
I don't think you can use that a stick to beat him with. Not everyone can be that heart-on-sleeve warrior personality. He's pretty inoffensive and quite nice, and that's how he plays football too.

Totally agree with this and why I think he's a squad player and not a first team player.

Fair enough, Jamie Carragher is passion. I dream of a team of characters and all that. Fair enough. If that's what you mean, and I think you do, I agree with you. Trouble we have, is that is is very difficult to find players of Jamie's mentality that come from outside Liverpool

We can always throw 'they did not try' or 'they lacked passion' whenever we lose

Carragher is a fine example of a player who had more raw determination and passion than natural ability. I agree it's hard to find players with his, the right mentality, and most definitely coming from Liverpool can help fuel the passion but I think there's plenty out there who have it, we just don't seem to do a good job of finding them.

Totally agree with this and why I think he's a squad player and not a first team player.

Carragher is a fine example of a player who had more raw determination and passion than natural ability. I agree it's hard to find players with his, the right mentality, and most definitely coming from Liverpool can help fuel the passion but I think there's plenty out there who have it, we just don't seem to do a good job of finding them.

I don't think it is fair to talk about Carragher as being all about passion and determination, as if that somehow masked or made up for a lack of talent. He was also a very, very good footballer.

It seems Henderson is being singled out as a scapegoat now, one with no passion.

Totally agree with this and why I think he's a squad player and not a first team player.

Carragher is a fine example of a player who had more raw determination and passion than natural ability. I agree it's hard to find players with his, the right mentality, and most definitely coming from Liverpool can help fuel the passion but I think there's plenty out there who have it, we just don't seem to do a good job of finding them.

Carra was one of the finest readers of the game in the world, there was genuine genius in his defending which coupled with his exceptional determination which is why he was so successful.

Henderson can become a good player for us, and at times this season so far he has been one of our more important players but he will probably never be world class. His importance for us lies in his versatility and his willingness to put in a shift.

It seems Henderson is being singled out as a scapegoat now, one with no passion.

Couldn't care less about his supposed passion, my beef with him is his lack of impact on the game.

Fair enough.