The defence, a discussion

Our defence seems to be a source of disscussion in recent times so i thought we could have an open discussion about why we are conceeding so many, your take on it, see if as a whole we agree or do we view the issue different ways.

For me the reason we are letting in so many is a tactical issue rather than a personel issue for the main part, defenders like anywhere else are only as good as the players around them or the tactics being used, if you play a more open attacking style the way we are doing then the defence is more exposed than if you were to be a more pragmatic team, play with two banks of four and narrow the pitch to make it difficult for the opposition to get onto the back four.. In the same way as a forward will score more the more you create for them, if you dont create as much then it makes it more difficult for them to score so many.

We are an attack minded unit, we get bodies forward, we push the full backs high up, Henderson and Coutinho are advanced thinkers, Coutinho especially in a midfield 3 centrally wont think too much about what happens behind him.. The way we get so many forward leaves us open to being turned around quickly and exposed.. Even our CBs are encouraged to bring the ball out and split as a two..



When we have the ball you will often see us like the formation above, with alot of players commiting themselves forward to attack, often both full backs high, its a nature of playing which thinks of blowing teams away.. With both full backs high, Hendo and Cou supporting the front three if we do get turned around then its far too much to do for the CBs and Steven.. If one Full back went at a time then the holder has more chance of shuttling across and and covering for them, but when both go its easy to expose..
Often we look like we make individual mistakes and yes to an extent we do but its what happens before tactically that we need to think of rather than look to blame one defender who is often exposed.

Now im not having a go at the way we set up, it certainly makes for entertaining football and it has us challenging for the league so i accept it  as part of the way we play and accept that from time to time it wont come off or we will have very heart rending days like yesterday.

Look at 3 of our defenders today, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel.. All played in Rafa sides but the way Rafa set them up didnt leave them as exposed and we looked often a far better defending unit with essentially the same defenders..



If you look at a typical Rafa set up, we didnt have the Full backs so high, maybe one went at a time, but on the whole they stayed as a unit, with Macherano never far from the sweeping across and Alonso next to him as the ball playing midfielder but he was very tactically aware of his defensive job.. The wide players often came narrow to close space and make it difficult for the opposition to break on us quick or in essence difficult to pass or run through us.

We commit ourselvs as an offensive unit under Brendan and it works even if at times its hair raising, but if you look at heat maps of average player positions we have so many really high up and leaving us open.
You could put the best defenders in the world in our current defence and they woul still get exposed.. We need to improve at holding the ball to stop us being broken on quickly and have the chance to filter numbers back, we can improve defensively yes but i dont think we will ever be a side that doesnt conceed with these tactics.

Thats my take anyway

I think Brendan would play an entirely different way if he had a squad of his choosing .He has to play the cards he has been dealt and that is with the best two strikers we have had for a generation.
what's the old saying "the best form of defence it to attack". His style was possession and build from the back now we have a combination of lots of different styles long short what does it matter get the ball into the final third or the box and let the best players we have do their work.

I think Brendan would play an entirely different way if he had a squad of his choosing .He has to play the cards he has been dealt and that is with the best two strikers we have had for a generation.
what's the old saying "the best form of defence it to attack". His style was possession and build from the back now we have a combination of lots of different styles long short what does it matter get the ball into the final third or the box and let the best players we have do their work.

To an extent yes mate but he did sign Sturridge and he also brought in Coutinho as well, two attack minded players that are integral to the way we play.. He also asks the full backs to get high which is a tactical outlook he wants.. He could ask them to sit in..

I agree he has adapted and the best managers do but he wants to play front foot attacking football..

And it's working.

To an extent yes mate but he did sign Sturridge and he also brought in Coutinho as well, two attack minded players that are integral to the way we play.. He also asks the full backs to get high which is a tactical outlook he wants.. He could ask them to sit in..

I agree he has adapted and the best managers do but he wants to play front foot attacking football..

And it's working.

It was Shankly's vision to have teams come to Anfield afraid of what the might face. At long last by accident or by other means Anfield has once again become a place to fear and I love this new attitude of bludgeoning the opposition to death.Never mind death by football this is death by a thousand cuts with just wave after wave of attack.I love it.

I agree that the way we are set up means we are always liable to concede as we push forward, but when you look at most of the goals we actually do concede, we usually have numbers back and it is individual errors or players not doing their jobs correctly that was the cause.

Take the three goals against Swansea. The first goal (Shelvey) we had enough players back, we allowed a player to run along the edge of our penalty area before passing to Shelvey who admittedly finished superbly.

The second goal (Boney), Skrtel gave away a silly foul, we then had numbers back to defend the free kick and in all honesty the goal itself was just bad luck. 

The third goal was a mistake by Stirling and Johnson giving the ball away out on the wing when there was absolutely no danger. A simple cross and maybe a dubious call but Skrtel needn't have touched him as Agger cleared the ball easily.

We are conceding a lot of goals , but most of them are individual mistakes rather than inherent to our tactics or style of play. These type of mistakes are usually due to mental tiredness which I do believe is a factor.The way our defenders are asked to play means that they not only have to concentrate on defending, but also on distribution as well.

The other factor is that our defenders are having to defend more because we no longer have two defensive midfielders covering in front of them. The more often defenders are asked to defend the more likely that they will make an error.

I think our defenders had it much easier before Brendan and now they are being called on more frequently, their flaws are beginning to show more frequently too. 

I also think they had it easier before because they had Pepe and Carra telling them what to do and where to go .... now they have to make their own decisions.

We have no defence ..... whats to discuss  ? 

The policy seems to be attack, with such an attacking side, I suppose goals are bound to be conceded. The time to really worry is when our strike force can no longer out score the opposition. It certainly makes entertaining football, in one sense long may it continue, so long as the results go the right way.

It's interesting that although we attack as a unit and pour people forward in the hope that even if we lose the ball with our high line pressing we can stop any potential break out by the opposition. However this is not so easy against a team like Swansea especially so when our passing was so off yesterday.
All 3 of the goals yesterday were from individual errors and it was not as if Mig had to make save after save.
The whole unit did not click yesterday when we lost the ball we were just a but non plussed about closing Swansea down compare to our big wins against Arsenal and Everton.
On reflection i don't think we were as bad as is being made out and we certainly won't face another tea like Swansea this season.

On the individual errors I'm a bit lost for words really considering the experience of Agger, Skrtel and Johnson, maybe we might as well just get used to the fact that this season is going to be a roller coaster defensively.

When Barca were at their peak they won the ball back quickly for the 20% of time they didn't have it. The opposition was so out of position that they couldn't capitalise or they were sat back in their 18 waiting for the next wave. We aren't at that level but we are making teams think about defending, we need to be better at not conceding from the counter otherwise other teams will take the initiative.

We are doing pretty well though. It is when teams work us out a bit more and come up with a plan for containment. Thats why you need plan B and C and more players with quality. I think our defenders are as good as most other teams bar the very richest. I mean at the moment I would take Kompany, Pique, Thiago Silva or Varane but not many other CB's. I would take Alaba (Bayern) or the Shmeltzer (Dortmund) or maybe Alba (Barca). However I think Flanagan is the real deal because he is a scouser and he has ability. Most of the guys we have Agger, Skertl, Johnson could keep clean sheets once so it is most likely our new style. Maybe we need a Mascherano or Lucas to stop conter attacks. Like I sais before the problem comes when other teams work get more comfortable with us. The richest clubs just buy expensive attackers to keep fresh. Or like Utd did before they based their game on a strong defensive unit and had very expensive strikers and cheating referees to get them the goal they needed for victory. This works if you have a ronaldo which is very common. We have Suarez tough.

The biggest problem we have doesn't actually lie within the tactics. Brendan's philosophy is meant to be about keeping the ball, passing it around and probing for opportunities when attacking in full force isn't an option. The problem we've faced this season is we're just not keeping the ball well enough, often giving it away cheaply in silly areas. If we kept hold of the ball better we wouldn't be left so exposed because we'd be controlling games better. To paraphrase Alonso, I believe it was, if you need to tackle then you're doing it wrong. Yes, we've made some silly defensive mistakes but I believe if we improve the passing part of our game a lot of the problems we've faced will be largely alleviated.

I've now accepted that clean sheets are a thing of the past and we'll just out score the opposition , so no more complaints about the defence from me just sit back and enjoy the mad crazy ride .

The gung-ho attack plays it part. The fact that our defenders and keeper aren't as good as people make out, also plays a part.

Let's face it, we've got Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson and Gerrard starting practically every game from here on in. That's 6 attack minded players. Johnson is back now who again would rather be attacking than defending. Agger is better coming forward than he is at actually defending. Even Flanagan likes to venture forward and leave a big gap when he does so. Only Skrtel is a defensive minded player in my opinion from the 11 outfield players who started against Swansea. When you've got that as you're starting XI, then you're bound to leak goals.

Comparing that to Rafa's 08-09 team (his title challenging team) you'll see that he has a lot more defensive minded players in the team - particularly at the base of his team.

Arbeloa, while decent going forward, put his defending first. Both Carra and Sami were out and out defenders. They very rarely left their defensive position to go on a mazy run the way I've seen Agger, Sakho and Toure do. They also had Mascherano in front of them who did F**k all for us in an attacking sense. I wouldn't call Alonso defensive minded by any stretch but I also wouldn't say that he joined up with the defence the way Gerrard has done in the last few games, he stayed relatively stationary in his "zone".

We've got the same attitude to games that Keegan installed into Newcastle all those years ago. Everybody loved watching Newcastle back then because they were so care free, it was just a case of who cares if you score three, we're gonna score four. Unfortunately for the Magpies, they won F**k all because of it. Sooner or later, goals will dry up and that's when it becomes a problem. That's why it's said great teams are built from the back. If you've got a solid defence then you'll be alright which is why Chelsea are top, which is why Everton always do "well" for them. They've got a solid base. And every team in this division will have chances to score in basically every match, if you've got a solid defence then the onus on scoring at every opportunity isn't that important. You can afford to miss three and score one, with that one still being the winner in a 1-0 win. Of course if you've got great attacking flair or somebody who is just on fire for a two/three month period then you're going to win more games than lose - simply because of how good your defence is.

As for my second point being the players aren't as good as people make out. It doesn't matter who plays at centre half, none of them win enough balls in the air to be considered a commanding centre half like Sami and Carra were. Neither Flanno nor Johnson are all that sound defensively, Flanno still tends to commit himself too quickly and Johnson is just constantly out of position. What Flanno does well is he reads the game but like I said can be rash in the challenge and we find ourselves a man down. Cissokho and Enrique are both sh*t. And yes I'm aware Jose hasn't played for however long it is but it doesn't hide the fact that when he does play, he's still sh*t. Mignolet has a mistake in him which I don't think helps, I don't think the defence has a great deal of confidence in him.

However, saying all that, we're four points adrift of Chelsea after 27 games. Most people would of had us nearer 20 points adrift (if not more) by this stage of the season. So something is working. Are we prepared to sacrifice one of our attacking players to shore us up at the back? Because in all honesty I don't think we would suddenly become water-tight by taking Coutinho out the side for somebody like Mascherano. It might help slightly but it wouldn't solve our problems.

So I think it's best to maintain with the current set up. And credit to Brendan for finding a system that is able to include all our best players. And had one or two refereeing decisions gone our way this season, we could easily be sitting top. So F**k the defensive problems, they are at this moment in time, outwieghed quite considerably by our attacking quality.

I know a few want us to lose so they can say "told you so" about this system and it's personnel but not me, I just wanna keep enjoying Liverpool win. If it means winning 4-3 every week then so F***ing be it. We've got the quality to score four against any club in the world just like we've got the defensive flaws to concede three to any club out there.

People can say, oh against the better teams this system won't work. It F***ing will because against City, Chelsea and United, we can easily put four against them because that's how good our attack is.

Well my opinion is this, think skrtal is a liability to many own goals,another weaklink is our goalkeeper. he does lose us the occasional game. Also glen johnson is past his best and should be let go. if players are not match fit don't play them. His rating against swansea was 4.5, when did he have a good game?     

It's easy to blame the players but neither Skrtel nor Mignolet are bad players, they are simply the wrong players for the style of football that we play. Brendan Rodgers always goes on about how we press with a high line but to Skrtel this is an anathema because if the ball gets behind him, he knows he lacks the pace to deal with it which leads to his Lucha libre impressions. We're also supposed to be keeping possession which is difficult when your keeper lacks the distribution accuracy when playing a long ball out of defence. Our style of play makes them liabilities but our style of play brings the best out of our attacking play so regardless of them being good players, it's probably time to call it a day for them at Liverpool this Summer and move them on.

Anyone have the stats on how often we get hit on the counter, to support Jon's assertion vs how many of our goals come from poor defending of either set pieces or when we have everyone back in our own end defending and someone just loses their man?

I think we are setup in a way that can leave us open, but my guess is that Brendan still expects the center halves to be able to slow down any couter and for the fullbacks and the CDM (Stevie) to be able to get back and help in defense. Of course when we are giving up goals because we just aren't marking our men well enough I don't know if it's as cut and dry as tactical vs. player mistakes?

 If we could ally our defence to the standards set by our attack we would not be just EPL winners we would be world beaters. In defence, players do not appear to have  confidence in each other. The fact we have attacking fullback/wingers should not have any bearing on defensive problems. After all we have had attacking fullbacks for years and years, Chris Lawler, Alec Lindsay and many more for example and they were also excellent at defending.

My honest opinion is this get Reina back in goal next season keep the rest
& we have a great chance of the title.

Mignolet imo is simply not ready he needs a season learning from Reina

Just like Clemence did back in Shanlkly's time.
Just like Grobb did in Paisley's era..

My honest opinion is this get Reina back in goal next season keep the rest
& we have a great chance of the title.

Mignolet imo is simply not ready he needs a season learning from Reina

Just like Clemence did back in Shanlkly's time.
Just like Grobb did in Paisley's era..

Not sure Reina at this stage of his career is the answer have you seen him for Napoli, not exactly inspiring. Once we have a settled back 4 this should inspire more confidence in Mig.
Don't get all the criticism about his lack of distribution seeing as though we mainly start our attacks from the back with ball being rolled out. Commanding his area is something he definitely needs to work on though.

My honest opinion is this get Reina back in goal next season keep the rest
& we have a great chance of the title.

Mignolet imo is simply not ready he needs a season learning from Reina

Just like Clemence did back in Shanlkly's time.
Just like Grobb did in Paisley's era..

Ray Clemence went into the reserves for a couple of years and was well versed into what was required of him  by Bill Shankly.  Bruce Grobbelaar  from memory went straight into the first team.

So I think it's best to maintain with the current set up. And credit to Brendan for finding a system that is able to include all our best players.

I agree here Billy.

I know we haven't been as tight at the back as most of us would like but as the season has went on I've accepted that our attacking atyle of play and the sheer number of attacking players the manager picks will always leave us open to conceding.

I admire how Brendan sends out this current team to win every game and by doing so we end up winning far more than we lose so I'm not too unhappy right now.

Well as uneasy as it is to watch sometimes, and relief when the final whistle goes sometimes, I wouldn't swap the way we play for the likes of Chelsea etc.

I bet there are a lot of people who support other teams wished they were playing like us.

Lets just enjoy the ride, and see where it takes us.

Think you're all nit-picking. Just because our defence is our weakest position currently doesn't mean we all need to panick. We wanted to get top 4 this season and it looks likely we're going to do that.
We have had many many injuries in the defence this year, with a constant defence of Johnson (despite his woes) Skrtle Sakho and Enrique we wouldn't be having a crisis meeting like this.
We need to improve our Fullbacks yes, but let Enrique and Sakho get back in the squad before we all start having a little cry...

Last season fans (rightly in my view) were moaning that despite all our lovely football, in many cases we didn't actually have anyone in the box when the ball was played in. We rectified it after Christmas and went on a good run, but in the Premiership unless you attack in numbers it's rare for you to score heavily. This season the things been turned completely on its head. Now, we attack in greater numbers than anyone else in the league, we hunt the ball higher than anyone else in the league bar Southampton, but when the opposition breaks onto us we are often short of numbers.

Can you have one without the other? The answer is probably yes if we changed the formation and personnel, but probably no IMHO unless we do. We can bang on all we like to Sturridge and Suarez about "filling in when we haven't got it", likewise Sterling. We can practice till the cows come home with Coutinho on his tackling, but the fact of the matter is they aren't ever going to be Steve Macmahon in the defensive sense. If we tell Jordan (which apparently we have been doing) to get forward more, even with his Duracell engine it stands to reason he isn't going to be able to get back to the same extent he did previously. Which leaves us with a dodgy back four, a holder who IMHO is brilliant but who also has tendencies to go forward more than most in the same position, and a good shot-stopper goalkeeper who doesn't like to come off his line.

It is my view that we can discuss the defence and draw diagrams all we like, the simple fact of the matter is though that we desperately need Sturridge and Suarez to continue their electric form. We are I'm afraid going to continue to concede goals and chances if we play this way (and I personally hope we do), we'd all better start hoping that we continue to score more often than the team we're playing against. Ultimately of course it isn't in the rules that you have to win 1-0 when you don't play well in order to be a good team, although accepted historical convention is that that is the case. Winning 4-3 when you don't play well gives you the same number of points.