Emre Can (Liverpool > Juventus)

Erm, Juventus offered a good wedge for him last summer, so not quite sure what you mean there mate.
A player of his quality will attract interest; the fact that Juve were prepared to shell out a decent wedge in the last year of his contract speaks volumes for me.

Brought up in Germany, highly rated, has played in fast paced leagues all his career, and to me, doesn't look out of place, plus he's a lot quicker than people give him credit for.
Look at the stats about our quickest players.

Suso's problems were all in his head; he thought he'd made it already, and was a proper lazy f**ker in training.
No doubt he's bucked his ideas up now.

I forget what Juve offered you will have to remind me but I doubt it was anything like a decent wedge.

Pace in a straight line means zilch mate his acceleration from a standing start is poor probably because of his size.
Issue I have with him is reading of the game and frankly it's that poor at times it makes him look lazy, something he is accused of regularly.

I like emre as a player, not perfect and is inconsistent but nowhere near as bad as some say, needs to be more consistent and perhaps have more of a defined role, eg is he a defensive midfielder etc, the stuff about playing for himself is nonsense. Would like him to stay but asking for a release clause smacks a bit of hedging his bets but does seem more of a trend these days.

I remember people using top speed as a way of saying Andy Carroll wasn't slow, but as it happens top speed is far from the most relevant info for a game of football. Like Carroll, Can is quite slow in his turns, which added to his poor awareness of his surroundings make him a less than ideal package for a midfielder.

I don't judge players based on the teams interested in them anyway - based on that criteria Jamie Carragher would've been sh*t for Liverpool. And all top European clubs, even the most successful, have signed a fair share of crap over the years. Juve themselves have recently signed a player for Emre Can's position in Tomás Rincón, but he's already been loaned out to Torino after just half a season.

I forget what Juve offered you will have to remind me but I doubt it was anything like a decent wedge.

Pace in a straight line means zilch mate his acceleration from a standing start is poor probably because of his size.
Issue I have with him is reading of the game and frankly it's that poor at times it makes him look lazy, something he is accused of regularly.

It was well over £20 m if memory serves, certainly a nice wedge for a player coming into the last year of his contract.

Here's where we differ though; his acceleration is actually pretty good when he turns it on, but he doesn't often do it, when he does, the speed he goes through gaps at after spotting them is good.

His reading of the game is a weakness at the moment, sure, but he's 23.
I can't think of many 23 year olds who read the game as well as a player in his prime.
It's a skill that comes with experience, and he'll get better at it.

I think my major point is that for his age, he's very good, and he'll only get better.
When he hits his prime, he's going to be a monster, and I think we need to keep hold of him for that reason.
Yes he'll infuriate at times, have bad spells of form, misread situations etc but when he hits his peak, he is going to be an absolute beast.

I remember people using top speed as a way of saying Andy Carroll wasn't slow, but as it happens top speed is far from the most relevant info for a game of football. Like Carroll, Can is quite slow in his turns, which added to his poor awareness of his surroundings make him a less than ideal package for a midfielder.

I don't judge players based on the teams interested in them anyway - based on that criteria Jamie Carragher would've been sh*t for Liverpool. And all top European clubs, even the most successful, have signed a fair share of crap over the years. Juve themselves have recently signed a player for Emre Can's position in Tomás Rincón, but he's already been loaned out to Torino after just half a season.

ahh, now his turns aren't great, that's true, but to be fair, he's not a player used to facing his own goal.
That, and his awareness are both things that can be coached and inevitably improve with experience.
Playing RB for Germany also shows his versatility, and if you watched those games, also showed his speed, but it's a fair point that he's not the best when he's facing his own goal.

Let me say again; 23 years old, already an established international, playing at one of the biggest clubs in the world, and he will only get better.
He cost, what, £10 million?
Exactly the type of player we should be holding on to.

ahh, now his turns aren't great, that's true, but to be fair, he's not a player used to facing his own goal.
That, and his awareness are both things that can be coached and inevitably improve with experience.
Playing RB for Germany also shows his versatility, and if you watched those games, also showed his speed, but it's a fair point that he's not the best when he's facing his own goal.

Let me say again; 23 years old, already an established international, playing at one of the biggest clubs in the world, and he will only get better.
He cost, what, £10 million?
Exactly the type of player we should be holding on to.

Jürgen said in his presser today that if he basically pulls an attitude he will bench him, supposedly this is and has been all about a release clause...his agent want's one and LFC is not giving those out anymore...hence why negotiations have gone nowhere. He is not guaranteed a starting position and we will not give him a get out clause..just like we didn't with Coutinho.

Think his best days are in front of him but at the same time I do not see him as irreplaceable.

I’d rather we kept him than Henderson but I don’t feel it’s a massive loss if he goes. Clearly isn’t all that committed to the club anyway if he’s f**king about over a release clause, clearly doesn’t see his long term future with us if he’s insisting on that.

To be honest, I wouldn’t be in the slightest bit bothered if we cleared out him, Hendo and Gini. Then replace them with players that match the standard we have arriving, Keita.

Our midfield has been shambolic for years now. To go from Gerrard, Alonso and Masch to Hendo, Gini, Can, Milner and generally whoever else is painful and pretty demoralising.

Jürgen said in his presser today that if he basically pulls an attitude he will bench him, supposedly this is and has been all about a release clause...his agent want's one and LFC is not giving those out anymore...hence why negotiations have gone nowhere. He is not guaranteed a starting position and we will not give him a get out clause..just like we didn't with Coutinho.

Think his best days are in front of him but at the same time I do not see him as irreplaceable.

To be fair, I'd expect Klopp to take that approach with any player, but the thing is, Can is on record as saying "I let my agent sort all that stuff out, I just want to play and learn" or words to that effect.
No player should be guaranteed a starting position either, and all players should be working hard and trying to improve.
I have no problems at all with not giving him a release clause.

Of course he's not irreplaceable, and next summer we have Keita coming in.

I’d rather we kept him than Henderson but I don’t feel it’s a massive loss if he goes. Clearly isn’t all that committed to the club anyway if he’s f**king about over a release clause, clearly doesn’t see his long term future with us if he’s insisting on that.

To be honest, I wouldn’t be in the slightest bit bothered if we cleared out him, Hendo and Gini. Then replace them with players that match the standard we have arriving, Keita.

Our midfield has been shambolic for years now. To go from Gerrard, Alonso and Masch to Hendo, Gini, Can, Milner and generally whoever else is painful and pretty demoralising.

No, not a massive loss, but a loss nonetheless in that he's a good player who has the potential to be a great player.
Maybe not "world class" but certainly in the next bracket down.
It's up to him, and he has everything he needs to do it, it just depends on what goes on between the ears.

Aye, the so called brilliant midfield, where Alonso was pretty average for 3.5 out of 5 seasons, where Masch kept giving away dodgy free kicks and getting himself sent off, and Gerrard playing the #10 role behind Torres.
I'm not saying they were bad, I'm just saying that looking back with misty eyes and longing often overlooks the faults in that midfield 2.
If they were as good as the misty eyed people actually think they were, we'd have pissed the league.
We didn't, and apart from one time, never really looked like we would.

That was then, this is now.
Move on.

To be fair, I'd expect Klopp to take that approach with any player, but the thing is, Can is on record as saying "I let my agent sort all that stuff out, I just want to play and learn" or words to that effect.
No player should be guaranteed a starting position either, and all players should be working hard and trying to improve.
I have no problems at all with not giving him a release clause.

Of course he's not irreplaceable, and next summer we have Keita coming in.

I don't disagree, its a tough call but supposedly the stand-off and or delays have had nothing to do about wages and everything to do with the release clause.

Aye, the so called brilliant midfield, where Alonso was pretty average for 3.5 out of 5 seasons, where Masch kept giving away dodgy free kicks and getting himself sent off, and Gerrard playing the #10 role behind Torres.
I'm not saying they were bad, I'm just saying that looking back with misty eyes and longing often overlooks the faults in that midfield 2.
If they were as good as the misty eyed people actually think they were, we'd have pissed the league.
We didn't, and apart from one time, never really looked like we would.

When we would consistently get top 4, when we would make it to the final and semi finals of the Champions League and genuinely go toe to toe with the best teams around whilst United and Chelsea were also very strong, when we would go a season losing just 2 games.
Players that have gone on to play a big part in their teams or countries success since leaving us. Players that would piss all over our midfield now. Yeah, bang average that midfield, what was I thinking they were head and shoulders above what we have now. Can who gives away a lot of fouls, a player who is terrified of playing away from home and then barely noticeable when at home and another who is meant to be captain but has no bottle and can only pass sideways a few yards. I can see where the tinted glasses are coming in so I apologise.

I don't disagree, its a tough call but supposedly the stand-off and or delays have had nothing to do about wages and everything to do with the release clause.

So I understand, which makes me think it's his agent who wants it, looking for another payday.
I'm probably wrong and just being cynical, but by F**k, I despise some agents.

When we would consistently get top 4, when we would make it to the final and semi finals of the Champions League and genuinely go toe to toe with the best teams around whilst United and Chelsea were also very strong, when we would go a season losing just 2 games.
Players that have gone on to play a big part in their teams or countries success whilst with us and since leaving us. Players that would piss all over our midfield now. Yeah, bang average that midfield. Players

Now now, let's not descend into hyperbole.
I didn't say that, or anything of the sort.
I'd also point out that getting into the top 4 now, is a much harder job than it was 10-12 years ago.

Are you really going to try and tell me that Alonso was good for more than (at best) 2 seasons out of 5?

Are you going to try and tell me that Masch didn't do things you'd rip Hendo apart for?

Gerrard wasn't even part of that midfield; he was playing #10 behind Torres in a 4231.
The 2 wide players were deeper more often than Gerrard, basically making a 442 (staggered)

We were also a lot more defensive under Rafa, which made the jobs of the defense, and the midfield deep 2 a lot easier.

I'm out anyway, comparing apples and oranges is a waste of time.
I could go back to the 70's and 80's and say they'd crap all over Rafa's teams, but it really doesn't matter.
I look forwards, not backwards, which is a reason I'd prefer to keep hold of Can.

If Klopp is inclined to let him leave why are people worried about keeping him? I thought we were supposed to fall in line behind Klopp and support whatever he does?

If Klopp is inclined to let him leave why are people worried about keeping him? I thought we were supposed to fall in line behind Klopp and support whatever he does?

Nobody said a word to or about you, so no idea what this is about.

Anyway
Just a few counter points, to show where I stand, and why.
First and foremost, I don't take much notice of what "most people on here say", and what others say certainly has little bearing on my assessment of a player.
Can is actually one of the quickest players in our squad; I know he looks like he's lumbering along, but don't let that fool you, he's pretty quick.

Last season he was carrying an injury pretty much the whole season, and still did well once he moved deeper (less running, there's an interview with him somewhere)
This time round he had no pre-season at all, and if anything he looks a little jaded, after playing a tournament in the summer.
Not excuses, but mitigating factors if you like.

I have no idea where this "he plays for himself" comes from, but I suspect there's a bit of bias due to his contract situation.
That's fair enough (the bias), but I don't see him playing for himself, I see a guy trying to make something happen.

He's 23, he's going to make errors.
Players in their prime make errors as well, and generally, young players make more.
For his age, Can makes fewer errors than most.

Finally, when were these "talks" of him moving into defense? On here? An interview?
It's perfectly acceptable for a player to have a preference as to where he plays, and IMO Can is fine where he is.
A different shape in midfield might benefit him, but he has shown he can play, and play well in any of our 3 midfield positions.

I'm not trying to persuade you; like I said, just some counter points to ponder (or not).

Nice follow up. Like I said i don't think Can is a bad player, I just want to upgrade on his position (and Kieta certainly is). I will try and find some links to where I read about Can being pessimistic about moving to CB. I understand him being reserved about moving positions. However, I'm also a big Milner guy and love his selflessness. Maybe I'm wrong to think everyone should be like James.

As far as the leave me out of it goes I don't appreciate you saying Klopp knows more than me. 

Weakest link in our midfield.

He has the ability to grow but I just don’t see the self sacrifice in him or game intelligence that I’m looking for.

To me he’s eminently replaceable.

Nice follow up. Like I said i don't think Can is a bad player, I just want to upgrade on his position (and Kieta certainly is). I will try and find some links to where I read about Can being pessimistic about moving to CB. I understand him being reserved about moving positions. However, I'm also a big Milner guy and love his selflessness. Maybe I'm wrong to think everyone should be like James.

As far as the leave me out of it goes I don't appreciate you saying Klopp knows more than me. 

I'm also looking at future potential, and his natural progression.

I know I keep banging on that he's only 23, but for me, that's the biggest part of why we should keep him. i.e. he's only going to get better.

So, what's the deal with Emre?
I'd like him to stay, but it looks like he's not going to sign a new contract.
Disappointing, think he's going to continue to improve.
But imho, if he doesn't sign by the end of the calendar year, we should sell him in January.
Otherwise, we loose out on 20mill or whatever.
Maybe I'm missing something, but seems like the obvious thing to do.
Sure, need to line someone else up, or promote Grujic to more games for 2nd half of season.
But letting guys leave for nothing seems like pretty bad business in anyone's book...

So, what's the deal with Emre?
I'd like him to stay, but it looks like he's not going to sign a new contract.
Disappointing, think he's going to continue to improve.
But imho, if he doesn't sign by the end of the calendar year, we should sell him in January.
Otherwise, we loose out on 20mill or whatever.
Maybe I'm missing something, but seems like the obvious thing to do.
Sure, need to line someone else up, or promote Grujic to more games for 2nd half of season.
But letting guys leave for nothing seems like pretty bad business in anyone's book...

Who is going to buy him in jan when you can get him for nought in the summer

Who is going to buy him in jan when you can get him for nought in the summer

Everton???

Everton???

Not even they are that stup...oh hang on

Who is going to buy him in jan when you can get him for nought in the summer

Someone who is nervous about not being considered the first choice for a free agent maybe?

Someone who is nervous about not being considered the first choice for a free agent maybe?

We couldn't force him to sign for that club though could we?

He can sign a pre contract with whoever he likes in January
Why would he sign for a club he doesn't want just because we accept a bid?

Hearing he wants to join Citeh???

If that's the case, F**k him off to the bench or reserves and give Ejaria a chance.  Reckon this kid is gonna be the bomb, let's get his senior career kick started.