Adam Lallana (End of contract, BHA)

Exactly what my posts demonstrates, look at the applicable stats and use your own observations. You chose to use the stats to counter an argument after watching the game and seemed happy to dismiss your, or whoever's, opinion based on the stats alone.

So nice to see you're catching on, I'd be hopeful if it wasn't for the fact that in Coutinho's thread you're admitting that Lallana shouldn't get in the team ahead of him and believe that Lallana's best position is the 10 role for which the stats and observations both demonstrate that he's actually weakest at.

The stats suggest he'd make a better box-to-box midfielder, unfortunately his "dribbles", based on observations, are very much blind alley and back again and his key passes are too low, so are his goals. So really the conclusion, should you agree with those should be to drop him, which I suspect when Firmino is fully fit will be exactly what happens.

Stop trying to be passive aggressive, it doesn't suit you. I don't think anywhere did I champion Lallana's performance in the last game, my point on the stats Mozzie posted were that from my eyes, Lallana's game against Bournemouth was mediocre...but the stats don't bear that out. In fact whoscored.com has both of his league performances this year rated at 7+. Which was to my point that the stats sometimes show what the eyes miss. For once, I would have been on your side that Lallana was quite average, but the stats don't bear that out. You on the other hand want to dismiss the stats because they don't suit your personal agenda against the player.

If he gets dropped, I think it should be for Ibe though, not Firmino, based purely on contributions to the game. Ibe doesn't do half of what Lallana does defensively or drawing defenders in to create passing lanes, in fact, speaking of blind alley's, for now, Ibe is still living in one most times. If he learns to pick his head up and if he learns when to take on his man to the outside, when to cut in and when to pass, he'll be immense, but he's not there yet.

Lallana gets stick for slowing down play, yet when Ibe gets the ball on the wing, he often times stands and waits with the ball instead of either passing to a playmaker and creating space or taking on his man. Mind you, these critiques may make me sound like I'm not a fan but on the contrary, I think Ibe is going to be immense...he's just not yet.

Stop trying to be passive aggressive, it doesn't suit you. I don't think anywhere did I champion Lallana's performance in the last game, my point on the stats Mozzie posted were that from my eyes, Lallana's game against Bournemouth was mediocre...but the stats don't bear that out. In fact whoscored.com has both of his league performances this year rated at 7+. Which was to my point that the stats sometimes show what the eyes miss. For once, I would have been on your side that Lallana was quite average, but the stats don't bear that out. You on the other hand want to dismiss the stats because they don't suit your personal agenda against the player.

If he gets dropped, I think it should be for Ibe though, not Firmino, based purely on contributions to the game. Ibe doesn't do half of what Lallana does defensively or drawing defenders in to create passing lanes, in fact, speaking of blind alley's, for now, Ibe is still living in one most times. If he learns to pick his head up and if he learns when to take on his man to the outside, when to cut in and when to pass, he'll be immense, but he's not there yet.

Lallana gets stick for slowing down play, yet when Ibe gets the ball on the wing, he often times stands and waits with the ball instead of either passing to a playmaker and creating space or taking on his man. Mind you, these critiques may make me sound like I'm not a fan but on the contrary, I think Ibe is going to be immense...he's just not yet.

Get over the stats mate they had Lovren as one of the best CB's in the league last year!

Get over the stats mate they had Lovren as one of the best CB's in the league last year!

Good job on entirely missing the point of my post.

Get over the stats mate they had Lovren as one of the best CB's in the league last year!

No they didn't. Lovren didn't even make the top 100 players in the PL defensively last season according to whoscored.

Sorry mate but I'm calling your bullshit 

Thought Lallana was excellent after Hendo went off injured.

Don't know what some of ye were watching.

Stop trying to be passive aggressive, it doesn't suit you. I don't think anywhere did I champion Lallana's performance in the last game, my point on the stats Mozzie posted were that from my eyes, Lallana's game against Bournemouth was mediocre...but the stats don't bear that out. In fact whoscored.com has both of his league performances this year rated at 7+. Which was to my point that the stats sometimes show what the eyes miss. For once, I would have been on your side that Lallana was quite average, but the stats don't bear that out. You on the other hand want to dismiss the stats because they don't suit your personal agenda against the player.

Honestly FL, you and your petty accusations.

Nothing passive aggressive, simply showing your failings again, which you demonstrate quite conclusively in this paragraph. You're willing to dismiss what you saw personally based on the stats, so you're not using both methods of observation you're favouring one at the expense of the other. It's actually comical that you'd choose to believe the statistics rather than your own observations on a player you're clearly biased about.

Get over the stats mate they had Lovren as one of the best CB's in the league last year!

Exactly.

(and just to your reply FL, he was listed as the top CB in the country according to some stats, probably BigMick's stat site but still they're out there)

If he gets dropped, I think it should be for Ibe though, not Firmino, based purely on contributions to the game. Ibe doesn't do half of what Lallana does defensively or drawing defenders in to create passing lanes, in fact, speaking of blind alley's, for now, Ibe is still living in one most times. If he learns to pick his head up and if he learns when to take on his man to the outside, when to cut in and when to pass, he'll be immense, but he's not there yet.

If you remember FL, I was the one saying that I'd start Lallana as he offers that balance and protection, it's the one side of his game I've always been consistent with giving him credit for, but that's not why he's primarily selected (see above). As for dropping him for Ibe that makes no sense at all, Ibe is starting every game already so how do you drop him for a current starter?

Lallana gets stick for slowing down play, yet when Ibe gets the ball on the wing, he often times stands and waits with the ball instead of either passing to a playmaker and creating space or taking on his man. Mind you, these critiques may make me sound like I'm not a fan but on the contrary, I think Ibe is going to be immense...he's just not yet.

Ibe should be dropped for the very reasons you state, he was excellent in preseason but has been very poor in his two starts so far. Lallana at least has his defensive contribution to fall back on, but the reason why we're creating next to nothing is almost entirely because of the transition between midfield and attack is failing and the key offenders are Ibe and Lallana. If it isn't Coutinho or a lump up to the attack it simply isn't happening for us and that has to change because it may have scraped us two wins so far but one was through no small amount of luck and the other was thanks to a world class strike that won't come around too often.

No they didn't. Lovren didn't even make the top 100 players in the PL defensively last season according to whoscored.

Sorry mate but I'm calling your bullshit 

http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/pdf/mr05_eng.pdf

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If it isn't Coutinho or a lump up to the attack it simply isn't happening for us

Picked this little snippet from an excellent post mate. This is my worry at the moment, with Henderson and Milner sitting we need our attacking midfielders to do more than just work hard, we need them creating and scoring too.

Obviously Lallana takes more of the criticism than Ibe because Ibe is still a work in progress while Lallana should be reaching his peak as a player now.

A bit of luck and some determined play has got us in an excellent position early in the season, if we are to make the most of this we need to start creating more chances because we can't rely on world class finishes or slightly dodgy goals every week.   

http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/pdf/mr05_eng.pdf

Page 16

What has that got to do with whoscored.com?

Picked this little snippet from an excellent post mate. This is my worry at the moment, with Henderson and Milner sitting we need our attacking midfielders to do more than just work hard, we need them creating and scoring too.

Obviously Lallana takes more of the criticism than Ibe because Ibe is still a work in progress while Lallana should be reaching his peak as a player now.

A bit of luck and some determined play has got us in an excellent position early in the season, if we are to make the most of this we need to start creating more chances because we can't rely on world class finishes or slightly dodgy goals every week.   

Spot on mate.

Honestly FL, you and your petty accusations.

Nothing petty about it. You often employ passive aggressive tactics when anyone questions your opinions, and let's remember, that's all they are Luke, opinions. You (like me) are by no measure an authority.

Nothing passive aggressive, simply showing your failings again, which you demonstrate quite conclusively in this paragraph. You're willing to dismiss what you saw personally based on the stats, so you're not using both methods of observation you're favouring one at the expense of the other. It's actually comical that you'd choose to believe the statistics rather than your own observations on a player you're clearly biased about.

So which one (stats or observations) am I believing since you seem to know what's bouncing around in my head? I don't think I "dismissed" anything, I merely stated that I tempered my initial observations once I realized that the statistics paint a different picture. I didn't say that I all of the sudden think he had an outstanding game, but what I did do was consider that maybe my eyes deceived a bit and that he wasn't as lackluster as I thought...which many others have already said by the way, so it's not like this is some revelation I've trying to make.

(and just to your reply FL, he was listed as the top CB in the country according to some stats, probably BigMick's stat site but still they're out there)

I've not seen anywhere reliable nor have I seen any corraboration by anyone that actually "knows" football that would argue that Lovren was one of the top CB's in the country. I'm pretty sure Mick who is his biggest fan wouldn't put forth that he was one of the best in the country.

If you remember FL, I was the one saying that I'd start Lallana as he offers that balance and protection, it's the one side of his game I've always been consistent with giving him credit for, but that's not why he's primarily selected (see above). As for dropping him for Ibe that makes no sense at all, Ibe is starting every game already so how do you drop him for a current starter?

I was responding to your assertion from your prior post:

So really the conclusion, should you agree with those should be to drop him, which I suspect when Firmino is fully fit will be exactly what happens.

I'm saying he shouldn't be dropped for Firmino, Ibe should be dropped because Lallana possesses qualities that are proving important that Ibe doesn't currently. Which incidently you went on to state......

Ibe should be dropped for the very reasons you state, he was excellent in preseason but has been very poor in his two starts so far.

So I'm not sure what you are arguing against, it essentially sounds like we are saying the same things???

Lallana at least has his defensive contribution to fall back on, but the reason why we're creating next to nothing is almost entirely because of the transition between midfield and attack is failing and the key offenders are Ibe and Lallana. If it isn't Coutinho or a lump up to the attack it simply isn't happening for us and that has to change because it may have scraped us two wins so far but one was through no small amount of luck and the other was thanks to a world class strike that won't come around too often.

So again, like I said before, drop Ibe, leave Lallana on because of his experience, work rate and defensive cababilities and add Firmino and our midfield should prosper.

I hardly think our problems are down to Adam Lallana alone as some are insinuating. To imply that is once again just a tactic used by those that believe they MUST have a whipping boy to blame any tactical woes on.

Lot of arguing and dick measuring going on in this forum lately.

Wonder if Whoscored has stats for that...

Nothing petty about it. You often employ passive aggressive tactics when anyone questions your opinions, and let's remember, that's all they are Luke, opinions. You (like me) are by no measure an authority.

You accused me of being passive aggressive, I wasn't, I was pointing out your mistake because you shouldn't simply trust stats because as has been proven on countless occasions they can actually be a poor reflection of the truth when placed in context.

That's why sometimes when some of us use the "eye test" of watching a game to make determinations of a player's contributions, we often times are actually full of crap. (including myself)

Here you clearly state that the stats carry more weight than your opinion and therefore allow the stats to make you believe that your opinion could be full of crap. This is incorrect, you formed your opinion on observations and contextualised them based on the situation and the game at hand.

For instance a tackle made by the corner flag in the opposition half with 30 seconds to go while winning 5-0 clearly doesn't carry the weight of a 90th minute goal stopping tackle when you're winning 1-0. (I'm not trying to treat you dumb here, just adding context and removing the weight stats should carry in formalising your opinion).

You rightly, in my opinion, concluded that although Adam had a decent game in the second half in a defensive sense, his overall contribution to the game was poor and the task presented to him initially was to be creative which he more or less failed at (both stats and observations confirm this so I'm sure you'd agree). Let's remember that this is Bournemouth at home, now I know some people are uncomfortable with admitting there are weaker teams in this league but it's a fact and Lallana should absolutely shine against a newly promoted side who came to compete man for man and not sit back in a cowardly low block.

So which one (stats or observations) am I believing since you seem to know what's bouncing around in my head? I don't think I "dismissed" anything, I merely stated that I tempered my initial observations once I realized that the statistics paint a different picture. I didn't say that I all of the sudden think he had an outstanding game, but what I did do was consider that maybe my eyes deceived a bit and that he wasn't as lackluster as I thought...which many others have already said by the way, so it's not like this is some revelation I've trying to make.

You're believing the stats and allowing them to prop up your over inflated opinion of the player at the expense of your own observations, as you admit, you're willing to believe 'you were deceived' when the truth is that you're allowing the stats to deceive you and render your opinion worthless. You quite clearly have a vested interest in seeing the very best of Lallana, it's obvious and I've no problem with it. You revel in the moment when he does something good and more power to you for it, but if you can't see that if you thought he had a "quite average" game it is actually an indication of just how poor he was then no amount of discussion will help you remove the bias.

I've not seen anywhere reliable nor have I seen any corraboration by anyone that actually "knows" football that would argue that Lovren was one of the top CB's in the country. I'm pretty sure Mick who is his biggest fan wouldn't put forth that he was one of the best in the country.

I never said they were reliable, reliable wasn't asked for, they are out there as HScRed1 has proven. (They've been going since 2010 though and that report is quite extensive)

I'm saying he shouldn't be dropped for Firmino, Ibe should be dropped because Lallana possesses qualities that are proving important that Ibe doesn't currently. Which incidently you went on to state......

Right, well on that we agree. I would only be against dropping Lallana at the moment purely based on his defensive contributions though. That as the biggest asset of a creative midfielder isn't a very big indictment. Markovic would be my choice against lesser opposition, but away to Arsenal we can ill afford to give them more to bite at than is already going to be our first proper test.

So again, like I said before, drop Ibe, leave Lallana on because of his experience, work rate and defensive cababilities and add Firmino and our midfield should prosper.

I think it will improve for sure, but to truly function we need at least 4 properly creative players. Firmino, Benteke and Coutinho wont be able to carry the entire weight.

I hardly think our problems are down to Adam Lallana alone as some are insinuating. To imply that is once again just a tactic used by those that believe they MUST have a whipping boy to blame any tactical woes on.

As I've said many times to you, Adam is an excellent squad player and in the second half we may actually have seen where his true position lies but I can't see Brendan shifting Milner or Henderson to accommodate that. Even when he does Can will probably be the preferred choice (who put in 4 tackles in the brief time he was on the pitch, compared to Adam's 5 total).

So yet again it boils down to squad player or true first XI candidate and for me, as has been consistently my view (not agenda driven), Lallana is that small amount of pace (which makes him have to hold on to the ball for longer than would normally be necessary) away from being a top quality player but as he's not going to suddenly get quicker at his age an alternative should be lined up. Ibe is looking like this year might, unfortunately, be a year too soon and as Debs alluded to, if he doesn't get it now, will he ever?

Would not be surprised to see Lallana taking Hendo's spot deeper in the midfield if Jordan is out for any period of time.

Though not particularly pretty before he came off you can see the affect he had when he left as we all of a sudden got overrun in the midfield. After some shaky moments we settled down again when Adam sat back; despite his erratic offensive talent that he shows he might actually do a job back there.

My biggest issue is getting some help for big Ben up top...both Lallana/Ibe have been ineffective so far...perhaps a Firmino/Ings would do more for him.

Would not be surprised to see Lallana taking Hendo's spot deeper in the midfield if Jordan is out for any period of time.

Though not particularly pretty before he came off you can see the affect he had when he left as we all of a sudden got overrun in the midfield. After some shaky moments we settled down again when Adam sat back; despite his erratic offensive talent that he shows he might actually do a job back there.

My biggest issue is getting some help for big Ben up top...both Lallana/Ibe have been ineffective so far...perhaps a Firmino/Ings would do more for him.

It wouldn't surprise me either mate, but really we shouldn't need to look any further than Lucas to fill the gap. This would enable Milner to make more forward runs while still giving Lucas the support and "legs" that he lacks. Sadly I think Brendan will go with Allen if Henderson is out for a while.

It was a big surprise to me that Can couldn't or at least didn't fill the gap Henderson left adequately... learn something new every day!

I would like to see Firmino given a free role in support behind Benteke or if that doesn't work, as you said a second forward beside him.   

Sadly I think Brendan will go with Allen if Henderson is out for a while.

Allen is out for the foreseeable future also so Hendo's injury may mean Lucas is staying put.

We shall see soon enough I suppose.

Get over the stats mate they had Lovren as one of the best CB's in the league last year!

This is so ignorant - stats didn't "have" Lovren as one of the best CBs in the league last year - one particular use of them did.

If I suddenly create a theory that, in order to evaluate a striker, you need to add his passing accuracy with the number of tackles he makes, and call it the Super Striker Diego Index, I don't need to explain (I think) that it's gonna be a sh*t way of actually evaluating performances. And as a result, it obviously won't mean that stats are useless, just that the way I'm trying to use them is stupid.

Stats are tangible facts which can be used in many ways - if a player has a 99% passing accuracy, defined in whatever way that particularly stats provider defines it, then it is fact. It doesn't necessarily mean this said player is the best passer in the world, as much more context needs to be put into it, but it's not useless either. In no sport, and particularly in football, where they have been started to be broadly used just recently, are stats going to tell the whole story. It doesn't mean they're useless and can't be of use for evaluating teams, players, and so on.

Allen is out for the foreseeable future also so Hendo's injury may mean Lucas is staying put.

We shall see soon enough I suppose.

Yeah, I was meaning if Henderson was to be out for a good while ... 6 months or so. I thought Allen was only out for a few weeks?

Yeah, I was meaning if Henderson was to be out for a good while ... 6 months or so. I thought Allen was only out for a few weeks?

I read 6-8 weeks like 2 weeks ago...so it will be awhile anyway.

What has that got to do with whoscored.com?

It shows the result of just looking at stats.

It shows the result of just looking at stats.

Yes but the original post by FL referred to a particular provider of stats whoscored.com which are far more in depth than the stats you pulled.

So when you stated "they had Lovren as one of the best CB's in the league last year!" you should have made it clear you were not referring to the statistics provider that FL referred to.

If I suddenly create a theory that, in order to evaluate a striker, you need to add his passing accuracy

Ironically, wasn't there a big stink created by some in the transfer board about a striker's passing accuracy? Was it Benteke's?

Don't want to see him start next week, especially not in a central midfield berth. He seems to take too long on the ball and against Arsenal we cannot have any passengers. Our midfield need to be quick and precise in their play, if he was to come on it'd be as an impact sub to find the gaps in an fatiguing Arsenal midfield/defense.