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      Do you Believe?

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      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #92: Sep 19, 2014 11:05:47 am
      I've got a background in the relevant science.

      The ancient egyptians (c 1400BC) were studying chick embryos and had a rough idea of placental function being important. Hippocrates could arguably be given the title as "the father of embryology" although most give the title to Aristotle.

      Nevertheless it's an incredibly important field and one in which big discoveries are being made even today. As with most branches of science our knowledge has built on what has been described in the past and has increased through increments.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #93: Sep 19, 2014 11:15:19 am
      My point is, what was the earliest man discovered Foetus development through science, I need a crystal clear answer from you before I give my answer with provided evidence.

      The foetus was known about in ancient Egypt, though not in a scientific way persay and Aristotle was aware of epigenisis, but if you're talking about when it became the prevalent way of thinking, which is a different thing altogether, the answer is. depending on how you want it to fit your argument, circa 150BC or 1827, though some would say 1759 was a prominent date as well. 
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #94: Sep 19, 2014 11:27:33 am
      The foetus was known about in ancient Egypt, though not in a scientific way persay and Aristotle was aware of epigenisis, but if you're talking about when it became the prevalent way of thinking, which is a different thing altogether, the answer is. depending on how you want it to fit your argument, circa 150BC or 1827, though some would say 1759 was a prominent date as well. 

      Did Aristotle give a description of stages of development?, this is what I'm looking for, I need a clear answer which proves when we actually discovered every stage of development in the womb.

      Roddenberry
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #95: Sep 19, 2014 11:30:47 am
      Did Aristotle give a description of stages of development?, this is what I'm looking for, I need a clear answer which proves when we actually discovered every stage of development in the womb.



      We're still discovering new things about foetus development to this day, so tell us exactly what answer do you want us to give, so you can spread some dogma?
      nnilswerdna
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #96: Sep 19, 2014 11:37:16 am
      Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

      Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #97: Sep 19, 2014 11:40:49 am
      We're still discovering new things about foetus development to this day, so tell us exactly what answer do you want us to give, so you can spread some dogma?

      Discovering exactly what about Foetus development? & yes I'm gonna spread some ʿAqīdah.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #98: Sep 19, 2014 11:47:14 am
      Discovering exactly what about Foetus development? & yes I'm gonna spread some ʿAqīdah.

      Quite a lot really.

      A lot of stem cell research has been relying on study of embryogenesis. The key questions to find out ar ehow little clumps of cells migrate to where they need to go (patterning) and then develop connectinos between themselves to grow into organs and suchlike (morphogenesis).

      If you can grack that puzzle you could theoreticaly grow a new lim if your arm wa schopped off (as certain lizards do).
      stuey
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #99: Sep 19, 2014 11:50:45 am
      My point is, what was the earliest man discovered Foetus development through science, I need a crystal clear answer from you before I give my answer with provided evidence.

      I really don't know what response you require to accommodate the stock ''explanation'' that your religion accepts.
      As stated 2,000+ years ago ancient physicians described the beginnings of the reproductive process with reference to a an egg or foetus following conception.
      This enlightenment could only be recorded in the form of handwritten diagrams and sketches until the advent of x-ray which confirmed the assertion.
      The foetus contains all the elements to reproduce the characteristics we associate with the human form.
      Like evolution it is a naturual progression, the various theories put forward by the assorted holy books involve, without exception mysterious, magical, wondrous, overnight miracles that require a degree of trust/faith to accept as genuine.

      There are certain faiths that refuse to acknowledge progress and unbelievably stifle learning and enlightenment supposedly to retain a degree of influence over the ''faithful'', an unachievable crusade in the modern order and contemporary society.
      Turning the clock back can only come about in the most extraordinary, perverse and contrived circumstances.
       
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #100: Sep 19, 2014 12:04:58 pm
      I will leave you with this, again it's from the Quran regarding Embryology & we are discussing wether we believe or not.

       
      EMBRYOLOGY


      MAN IS CREATED FROM ALAQ---A LEECH-LIKE SUBSTANCE



      A few years ago a group of Arabs collected all information concerning embryology from the QUR'AN, and followed the instruction of the QUR'AN:


      "If ye realise this not, ask Of those who possess the Message."

                                                                                        [AL-QUR'AN 16:43 & 21:7]

      All the information from the QUR'AN so gathered, was translated into English and presented to Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, who was the Professor of Embryology and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada.

      At present he is one of the highest authorities in the field of Embryology. He was asked to give his opinion regarding the information present in the QUR'AN concerning the field of embryology. After carefully examining the translation of the Qur'anic verses presented to him, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned in the QUR'AN is in perfect conformity with modern discoveries in the field of embryology and does not conflict with them in any way. He added that there were however a few verses, on whose scientific accuracy he could not comment.

      He could not say whether the statements were true or false, since he himself was not aware of the information contained therein. There was also mention of this information in modern writings and studies on embryology. One such verse is:


      "Proclaim! (or Read!) In the name Of thy Lord and Cherisher, WHO created---Created man, out of A (mere) clot Of congealed blood."

                                                                                                  [AL-QUR'AN 96:1-2]

      The word 'alaq' besides meaning a congealed clot of blood also means something that clings, a leech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether an embryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. To check this out he studied the initial stage of the embryo under a very powerful microscope in his laboratory and compared what he observed with a diagram of a leech and he was astonished at the striking resemblance between the two! In the same manner, he acquired more information on embryology, that was hitherto not known to him, from the QUR'AN.

      Dr. Keith Moore answered about eighty questions dealing with embryological data mentioned in the QUR'AN and HADITH. Noting that the information contained in the QUR'AN and HADITH was in full agreement with the latest discoveries in the field of embryology, Prof. Moore said, "If I was asked these questions thirty years ago, I would not have been able to answer half of them for lack of scientific information."

      Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, 'The Developing Human'.After acquiring new knowledge from the QUR'AN, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, 'The Developing Human'. The book was the recipient of an award for the best medical book written by a single author. This book has been translated into several major languages of the world and is used as a textbook of embryology in the first year of medical studies.

      In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said, "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the QUR'AN about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- from GOD or ALLAH, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.

      This proves to me that MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- must have been a messenger of GOD or ALLAH{The reference for this statement is the video tape titled 'This is the Truth'.For a copy of this video tape contact the Islamic Research Foundation}.

      Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson, Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, U.S.A., proclaims: "... these HADITHS, sayings of MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the writer (7th century).

      It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (ISLAM) but in fact religion (ISLAM) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... there exist statements in the QUR'AN shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the QUR'AN having been derived from GOD."


      MAN CREATED FROM A DROP EMITTED FROM BETWEEN THE BACKBONE AND THE RIBS


      "Now let man but think From what he is created! He is created from A drop emitted --- Proceeding from between The back bone and the ribs."

                                                                                                  [AL-QUR'AN 86:5-7]

      In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.

      Later they descend; the female gonads(ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads(testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the back bone(spinal column) and the ribs.

      Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.


      HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM NUTFAH (Minute Quantity of Liquid)


      The Glorious QUR'AN mentions no less than eleven times that the human being is created from 'nutfah', which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickle of liquid which remains after emptying a cup. This is mentioned in several verses of the QUR'AN including 22:5 and 23:13. {The same is also mentioned in the QUR'AN in 16:4, 18:37, 35:11, 36:77, 40:67, 53:46, 75:37, 76:2 and 80:19} Science has confirmed in recent times that only one out of an average of three million sperms is required for fertilising the ovum. This means that only a 1/three millionth part or 0.00003% of the quantity of sperms that are emitted is required for fertilisation.


      HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM SULALAH (quintessence of liquid)


      "And made his progeny From a quintessence Of the nature of A fluid despised."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 32:8]

      The Arabic word 'sulalah' means quintessence or the best part of a whole. We have come to know now that only one single spermatozoan that penetrates the ovum is required for fertilization, out of the several millions produced by man. That one spermatozoan out of several millions, is referred to in the QUR'AN as 'sulalah'. 'Sulalah' also means gentle extraction from a fluid.The fluid refers to both male and female germinal fluids containing gametes. Both ovum and sperm are gently extracted from their environments in the process of fertilization.


      MAN CREATED FROM NUTFATUN AMSHAAJ (Mingled liquids)


      Consider the following Qur'anic verse:


      "Verily WE created Man from a drop Of mingled sperm."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 76:2]

      The Arabic word 'nutfatun amshaajin' means mingled liquids. According to some commentators of the QUR'AN, mingled liquids refers to the male or female agents or liquids. After mixture of male and female gamete, the zygote still remains 'nutfah'. Mingled liquids can also refer to spermatic fluid that is formed of various secretions that come from various glands. Therefore 'nutfatun amshaaj', i.e. a minute quantity of mingled fluids refers to the male and female gametes (germinal fluids or cells) and part of the surrounding fluids.


      SEX DETERMINATION


      The sex of a foetus is determined by the nature of the sperm and not the ovum. The sex of the chil, whether female or male, depends on whether the 23rd pair of chromosomes is XX or XY respectively. Primarily sex determination occurs at fertilization and depends upon the type of sex chromosome in the sperm that fertilizes an ovum. If it is an 'X' bearing sperm that fertilizes the ovum, the foetus is a female and if it is a 'Y' bearing sperm then the foetus is a male.


      "That HE did create In pairs---male and female, From a seed when lodged (In its place)."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 53:45-46]

      The Arabic word 'nutfah' means a minute quantity of liquid and 'tumna' means ejaculated or planted. Therefore 'nutfah' specifically refers to sperm because it is ejaculated.


      The QUR'AN says:


      "Was he not a drop Of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (ALLAH) make And fashion (him) In due proportion. And of him HE made Two sexes, male And female."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 75:37-39]

      Here again it is mentioned that a small quantity (drop) of sperm (indicated by the word 'nutfatan min maniyyin) which comes from the man is responsible for the sex of the foetus. Mothers-in-law in the Indian subcontinent, by and large prefer having male grandchildren and often blame their daughters-in-law if the child is not of the desired sex.

       If only they knew that the determining factor is the nature of the male sperm and not the female ovum! If they were to blame anybody, they should blame their sons and not their daughters-in-law since both the QUR'AN and Science hold that it is the male fluid that is responsible for the sex of the child!


      FOETUS PROTECTED BY THREE VEILS OF DARKNESS


      "HE makes you, In the wombs of your mothers, In stages, one after another, In three veils of darkness."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 39:6]


      According to Prof. Keith Moore these three veils of darkness in the QUR'AN refer to"

      (a) anterior abdominal wall of the mother
      (b)the uterine wall                                                                                                (c)the amnio-chorionoic membrane.


      EMBRYONIC STAGES


      "Man WE did create From a quintessence (of clay); Then WE placed him As ( a drop of) sperm In a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then WE made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood; Then of that clot WE made A (foetus) lump; then WE Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh; then WE developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be ALLAH, The Best to create!"

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 23:12-14]

      In this verse ALLAH states that man is created from a small quantity of liquid which is placed in a place of rest, firmly fixed(well established or lodged) for which the Arabic word 'qararin makin' is used.

      The uterus is well protected from the posterior by the spinal column supported firmly by the back muscles. The embryo is further protected by the amniotic sac containing the amniotic fluid. Thus the foetus has a well protected dwelling place. This small quantity of fluid is made into 'alaqah', meaning something which clings. It also means a leech-like substance. Both descriptions are scientifically acceptable as in the very early stages the foetus clings to the wall and also appears to resemble the leech in shape.

      It also behaves like a leech(blood sucker) and acquires its blood supply from the mother through the placenta. The third meaning of the word 'alaqah' is a blood clot. During this 'alaqah' stage, which spans the third and fourth week of pregnancy, the blood clots within closed vessels.

      Hence, the embryo acquires the appearance of a blood clot in addition to acquiring the appearance of a leech. In 1677, Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells(spermatozoa) using a microscope. They thought that a sperm cell contained a miniature human being which grew in the uterus to form a newborn. This was known as the perforation theory. When scientists discovered that the ovum was bigger than the sperm, it was thought by De Graf and others that the foetus existed in a miniature form in the ovum. Later, in the 18th century Maupertuis propagated the theory of biparental inheritence. The 'alaqah' is transformed into 'mudghah' which means 'something that is chewed(having teeth marks)' and also something that is tacky and small which can be put in the mouth like gum.

      Both these explanations are scientifically correct. Prof. Keith Moore took a piece of plaster seal and made it into the size and shape of the early stage of foetus and chewed it between the teeth to make it into a 'Mudgha'. He compared this with the photographs of the early stage of foetus. The teeth marks resembled the 'somites' which is the early formation of the spinal column. This 'mudghah' is transformed into bones (izam). The bones are clothed with intact flesh or muscles (lahm). Then ALLAH makes it into another creature.


      Prof. Marshall Johnson is one of the leading scientists in US, and is the head of the Department of Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Institute at the Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia in US. He was asked to comment on the verses of the QUR'AN dealing with embryology. He said that the verses of the QUR'AN describing the embryological stages cannot be a coincidence. He said it was probable that MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- had a powerful microscope. On being reminded that the QUR'AN was revealed 1400 years ago, and microscopes were invented centuries after the time of PROPHET MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam---, Prof.

      Johnson laughed and admitted that the first microscope invented could not magnify more than 10 times and could not show a clear picture. Later he said: "I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that Divine intervention was involved when MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- recited the QUR'AN."

      According to Dr. Keith Moore, the modern classification of embryonic development stages which is adopted throughout the world, is not easily comprehensible, since it identifies stages on a numerical basis i.e. stage 1, stage 2, etc. The divisions revealed in the QUR'AN are based on distinct and easily identifiable forms or shapes, which the embryo passes through.

      These are based on different phases of prenatal development and provide elegant scientific descriptions that are comprehensible and practical. Similar embryological stages of human development have been described in the following verse:


      "Was he not a drop Of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (ALLAH) make And fashion (him) In due proportion. And of him HE made Two sexes, male And female."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 75:37-39]

      "HIM WHO created thee, Fashioned thee in due proportion, And gave thee a just bias; In whatever Form HE wills, Does HE put thee together."

                                                                                                  [AL-QUR'AN 82:7-8]

      EMBRYO PARTLY FORMED AND PARTLY UNFORMED


      At the 'mugdhah' stage, if an incision is made in the embryo and the internal organ is dissected, it will be seen that most of them are formed while the others are not yet completely formed.

      According to Prof. Johnson, if we describe the embryo as a complete creation, then we are only describing that part which is already created.If we describe it as an incomplete creation, then we are only describing that part which is not yet created. So, is it a complete creation or an incomplete creation? There is no better description of this stage of embryogenesis than the Qur'anic description, 'partly formed and partly unformed', as in the following verse:


      "WE created you Out of dust, then out of Sperm, then out of a leech-like Clot, then out of a morsel Of flesh, partly formed And partly unformed."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 22:5]
      Scientifically we know that at this early stage of development there are some cells which are differentiated and there are some cells that are undifferentiated---some organs are formed and yet others unformed.


      SENSE OF HEARING AND SIGHT


      Thefirst sense to develop in a developing human embryo is hearing. The foetus can hear sounds after the 24th wek. Subsequently, the sense of sight is developed and by the 28th week, the retina becomes sensitive to light. Consider the following Qur'anic verses related to the development of the senses in the embryo:


      "And HE gave You (the faculties of) hearing And sight and feeling (And understanding)."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 32:9]

      "Verily WE created Man from a drop Of mingled sperm, In order to try him: So WE gave him (the gifts), Of Hearing and Sight."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 76:2]

      "It is HE WHO has created For you (the faculties of) Hearing, sight, feeling And understanding: little thanks It is ye give!"

                                                                                                   [AL-QUR'AN 23:78]

      In all these verses the sense of hearing is mentioned before that of sight. Thus the Qur'anic description matches with the discoveries in modern embryology.

      « Last Edit: Sep 19, 2014 12:39:30 pm by Shabs »
      stuey
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #101: Sep 19, 2014 12:38:53 pm
      A blood sample will of course be contained of the elements to inspire life, accepted.
      Leeches were the panacea of all things before medicinal advances in the last 500 years, accepted.
      The eminent professor you allude to likewise agreed with some of the assertions in the holy book but pointed out there were anomalies that could not be verified.
      Science has answered those anomalies to a far greater extent than the author of the holy book, given it was penned some 3,000 years ago that is no big surprise.
      Faith has very little in common with logic and enlightenment, what defines faith is the willingness of an individual to accept or dismiss anything that attempts to diminish that concept.
      Logic and enlightenment demands progression, evolution is progress magnified.

      edit: That then was the stock response you faith demands for that particular enquiry about evolution.
      « Last Edit: Sep 19, 2014 01:01:14 pm by stuey »
      AussieRed
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #102: Sep 19, 2014 12:40:55 pm
      I believed in God till Steven slipped.
      racerx34
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #103: Sep 19, 2014 12:44:59 pm
      I believe in miracles
      I believe in a better world
      for me and you
      stuey
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #104: Sep 19, 2014 12:47:20 pm
      I believe in miracles
      I believe in a better world
      for me and you

      Is that the Hot Chocolate version mate?
      racerx34
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #105: Sep 19, 2014 12:48:36 pm
      Is that the Hot Chocolate version mate?

      Oh god, no. ;)

      That would be.

      I believe in miracles
      Where you from?
      You sexy thing
      stuey
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #106: Sep 19, 2014 12:50:19 pm
      Oh god, no. ;)

      That would be.

      I believe in miracles
      Where you from?
      You sexy thing

      The very one, excellent little ditty it is too.
      racerx34
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #107: Sep 19, 2014 12:52:35 pm
      The very one, excellent little ditty it is too.

      It is.

      I was quoting The Ramones originally.
      Belting song called "I Believe in Miracles"
      stuey
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #108: Sep 19, 2014 01:03:14 pm
      It is.

      I was quoting The Ramones originally.
      Belting song called "I Believe in Miracles"

      Haven't heard a bad one from the Ramones, the Godfathers of punk.
      racerx34
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #109: Sep 19, 2014 01:06:10 pm
      Haven't heard a bad one from the Ramones, the Godfathers of punk.

      See, we do all believe.
      The real question is "In what?"
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #110: Sep 19, 2014 01:09:11 pm
      Nice tangent, Improved the thread.

      ;D
      racerx34
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #111: Sep 19, 2014 01:14:11 pm
      Nice tangent, Improved the thread.

      ;D

      Why, thank you.
      Mad4LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #112: Sep 19, 2014 03:06:00 pm
      It doesn't have to be sealed in but our universe could be finite in size (although it is expanding so increasing in size). The curvature of spacetime (General Relativity) allows for this.

      There are suggestions in the laws of physics that might allow for the spontaneous (without cause) creation of a universe from literally nothing. eg a quantum fluctuation of spacetime. By nothing I mean literally nothing (ie absence of space, a vacuum or time). Perhaps God made such laws or perhaps that's just nature with no creator required.

      Other universes might exist but we might never be able to reach them given they exist in a totally different space and time.

      In all honesty we are just a spec in the history of time and space, I also believe that our knowledge of science, space and time is just as juvenile and will be superseded time and again with new theories. Doesn't Hawkins study of black holes put the very theory of relativity in doubt. One things for sure the future will be interesting. 
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #113: Sep 19, 2014 09:27:29 pm
      I will leave you with this, again it's from the Quran regarding Embryology & we are discussing wether we believe or not.

       
      EMBRYOLOGY


      MAN IS CREATED FROM ALAQ---A LEECH-LIKE SUBSTANCE



      A few years ago a group of Arabs collected all information concerning embryology from the QUR'AN, and followed the instruction of the QUR'AN:


      "If ye realise this not, ask Of those who possess the Message."

                                                                                        [AL-QUR'AN 16:43 & 21:7]

      All the information from the QUR'AN so gathered, was translated into English and presented to Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, who was the Professor of Embryology and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada.

      At present he is one of the highest authorities in the field of Embryology. He was asked to give his opinion regarding the information present in the QUR'AN concerning the field of embryology. After carefully examining the translation of the Qur'anic verses presented to him, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned in the QUR'AN is in perfect conformity with modern discoveries in the field of embryology and does not conflict with them in any way. He added that there were however a few verses, on whose scientific accuracy he could not comment.

      He could not say whether the statements were true or false, since he himself was not aware of the information contained therein. There was also mention of this information in modern writings and studies on embryology. One such verse is:


      "Proclaim! (or Read!) In the name Of thy Lord and Cherisher, WHO created---Created man, out of A (mere) clot Of congealed blood."

                                                                                                  [AL-QUR'AN 96:1-2]

      The word 'alaq' besides meaning a congealed clot of blood also means something that clings, a leech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether an embryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. To check this out he studied the initial stage of the embryo under a very powerful microscope in his laboratory and compared what he observed with a diagram of a leech and he was astonished at the striking resemblance between the two! In the same manner, he acquired more information on embryology, that was hitherto not known to him, from the QUR'AN.

      Dr. Keith Moore answered about eighty questions dealing with embryological data mentioned in the QUR'AN and HADITH. Noting that the information contained in the QUR'AN and HADITH was in full agreement with the latest discoveries in the field of embryology, Prof. Moore said, "If I was asked these questions thirty years ago, I would not have been able to answer half of them for lack of scientific information."

      Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, 'The Developing Human'.After acquiring new knowledge from the QUR'AN, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, 'The Developing Human'. The book was the recipient of an award for the best medical book written by a single author. This book has been translated into several major languages of the world and is used as a textbook of embryology in the first year of medical studies.

      In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said, "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the QUR'AN about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- from GOD or ALLAH, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.

      This proves to me that MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- must have been a messenger of GOD or ALLAH{The reference for this statement is the video tape titled 'This is the Truth'.For a copy of this video tape contact the Islamic Research Foundation}.

      Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson, Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, U.S.A., proclaims: "... these HADITHS, sayings of MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the writer (7th century).

      It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (ISLAM) but in fact religion (ISLAM) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... there exist statements in the QUR'AN shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the QUR'AN having been derived from GOD."


      MAN CREATED FROM A DROP EMITTED FROM BETWEEN THE BACKBONE AND THE RIBS


      "Now let man but think From what he is created! He is created from A drop emitted --- Proceeding from between The back bone and the ribs."

                                                                                                  [AL-QUR'AN 86:5-7]

      In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.

      Later they descend; the female gonads(ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads(testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the back bone(spinal column) and the ribs.

      Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.


      HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM NUTFAH (Minute Quantity of Liquid)


      The Glorious QUR'AN mentions no less than eleven times that the human being is created from 'nutfah', which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickle of liquid which remains after emptying a cup. This is mentioned in several verses of the QUR'AN including 22:5 and 23:13. {The same is also mentioned in the QUR'AN in 16:4, 18:37, 35:11, 36:77, 40:67, 53:46, 75:37, 76:2 and 80:19} Science has confirmed in recent times that only one out of an average of three million sperms is required for fertilising the ovum. This means that only a 1/three millionth part or 0.00003% of the quantity of sperms that are emitted is required for fertilisation.


      HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM SULALAH (quintessence of liquid)


      "And made his progeny From a quintessence Of the nature of A fluid despised."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 32:8]

      The Arabic word 'sulalah' means quintessence or the best part of a whole. We have come to know now that only one single spermatozoan that penetrates the ovum is required for fertilization, out of the several millions produced by man. That one spermatozoan out of several millions, is referred to in the QUR'AN as 'sulalah'. 'Sulalah' also means gentle extraction from a fluid.The fluid refers to both male and female germinal fluids containing gametes. Both ovum and sperm are gently extracted from their environments in the process of fertilization.


      MAN CREATED FROM NUTFATUN AMSHAAJ (Mingled liquids)


      Consider the following Qur'anic verse:


      "Verily WE created Man from a drop Of mingled sperm."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 76:2]

      The Arabic word 'nutfatun amshaajin' means mingled liquids. According to some commentators of the QUR'AN, mingled liquids refers to the male or female agents or liquids. After mixture of male and female gamete, the zygote still remains 'nutfah'. Mingled liquids can also refer to spermatic fluid that is formed of various secretions that come from various glands. Therefore 'nutfatun amshaaj', i.e. a minute quantity of mingled fluids refers to the male and female gametes (germinal fluids or cells) and part of the surrounding fluids.


      SEX DETERMINATION


      The sex of a foetus is determined by the nature of the sperm and not the ovum. The sex of the chil, whether female or male, depends on whether the 23rd pair of chromosomes is XX or XY respectively. Primarily sex determination occurs at fertilization and depends upon the type of sex chromosome in the sperm that fertilizes an ovum. If it is an 'X' bearing sperm that fertilizes the ovum, the foetus is a female and if it is a 'Y' bearing sperm then the foetus is a male.


      "That HE did create In pairs---male and female, From a seed when lodged (In its place)."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 53:45-46]

      The Arabic word 'nutfah' means a minute quantity of liquid and 'tumna' means ejaculated or planted. Therefore 'nutfah' specifically refers to sperm because it is ejaculated.


      The QUR'AN says:


      "Was he not a drop Of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (ALLAH) make And fashion (him) In due proportion. And of him HE made Two sexes, male And female."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 75:37-39]

      Here again it is mentioned that a small quantity (drop) of sperm (indicated by the word 'nutfatan min maniyyin) which comes from the man is responsible for the sex of the foetus. Mothers-in-law in the Indian subcontinent, by and large prefer having male grandchildren and often blame their daughters-in-law if the child is not of the desired sex.

       If only they knew that the determining factor is the nature of the male sperm and not the female ovum! If they were to blame anybody, they should blame their sons and not their daughters-in-law since both the QUR'AN and Science hold that it is the male fluid that is responsible for the sex of the child!


      FOETUS PROTECTED BY THREE VEILS OF DARKNESS


      "HE makes you, In the wombs of your mothers, In stages, one after another, In three veils of darkness."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 39:6]


      According to Prof. Keith Moore these three veils of darkness in the QUR'AN refer to"

      (a) anterior abdominal wall of the mother
      (b)the uterine wall                                                                                                (c)the amnio-chorionoic membrane.


      EMBRYONIC STAGES


      "Man WE did create From a quintessence (of clay); Then WE placed him As ( a drop of) sperm In a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then WE made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood; Then of that clot WE made A (foetus) lump; then WE Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh; then WE developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be ALLAH, The Best to create!"

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 23:12-14]

      In this verse ALLAH states that man is created from a small quantity of liquid which is placed in a place of rest, firmly fixed(well established or lodged) for which the Arabic word 'qararin makin' is used.

      The uterus is well protected from the posterior by the spinal column supported firmly by the back muscles. The embryo is further protected by the amniotic sac containing the amniotic fluid. Thus the foetus has a well protected dwelling place. This small quantity of fluid is made into 'alaqah', meaning something which clings. It also means a leech-like substance. Both descriptions are scientifically acceptable as in the very early stages the foetus clings to the wall and also appears to resemble the leech in shape.

      It also behaves like a leech(blood sucker) and acquires its blood supply from the mother through the placenta. The third meaning of the word 'alaqah' is a blood clot. During this 'alaqah' stage, which spans the third and fourth week of pregnancy, the blood clots within closed vessels.

      Hence, the embryo acquires the appearance of a blood clot in addition to acquiring the appearance of a leech. In 1677, Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells(spermatozoa) using a microscope. They thought that a sperm cell contained a miniature human being which grew in the uterus to form a newborn. This was known as the perforation theory. When scientists discovered that the ovum was bigger than the sperm, it was thought by De Graf and others that the foetus existed in a miniature form in the ovum. Later, in the 18th century Maupertuis propagated the theory of biparental inheritence. The 'alaqah' is transformed into 'mudghah' which means 'something that is chewed(having teeth marks)' and also something that is tacky and small which can be put in the mouth like gum.

      Both these explanations are scientifically correct. Prof. Keith Moore took a piece of plaster seal and made it into the size and shape of the early stage of foetus and chewed it between the teeth to make it into a 'Mudgha'. He compared this with the photographs of the early stage of foetus. The teeth marks resembled the 'somites' which is the early formation of the spinal column. This 'mudghah' is transformed into bones (izam). The bones are clothed with intact flesh or muscles (lahm). Then ALLAH makes it into another creature.


      Prof. Marshall Johnson is one of the leading scientists in US, and is the head of the Department of Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Institute at the Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia in US. He was asked to comment on the verses of the QUR'AN dealing with embryology. He said that the verses of the QUR'AN describing the embryological stages cannot be a coincidence. He said it was probable that MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- had a powerful microscope. On being reminded that the QUR'AN was revealed 1400 years ago, and microscopes were invented centuries after the time of PROPHET MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam---, Prof.

      Johnson laughed and admitted that the first microscope invented could not magnify more than 10 times and could not show a clear picture. Later he said: "I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that Divine intervention was involved when MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- recited the QUR'AN."

      According to Dr. Keith Moore, the modern classification of embryonic development stages which is adopted throughout the world, is not easily comprehensible, since it identifies stages on a numerical basis i.e. stage 1, stage 2, etc. The divisions revealed in the QUR'AN are based on distinct and easily identifiable forms or shapes, which the embryo passes through.

      These are based on different phases of prenatal development and provide elegant scientific descriptions that are comprehensible and practical. Similar embryological stages of human development have been described in the following verse:


      "Was he not a drop Of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (ALLAH) make And fashion (him) In due proportion. And of him HE made Two sexes, male And female."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 75:37-39]

      "HIM WHO created thee, Fashioned thee in due proportion, And gave thee a just bias; In whatever Form HE wills, Does HE put thee together."

                                                                                                  [AL-QUR'AN 82:7-8]

      EMBRYO PARTLY FORMED AND PARTLY UNFORMED


      At the 'mugdhah' stage, if an incision is made in the embryo and the internal organ is dissected, it will be seen that most of them are formed while the others are not yet completely formed.

      According to Prof. Johnson, if we describe the embryo as a complete creation, then we are only describing that part which is already created.If we describe it as an incomplete creation, then we are only describing that part which is not yet created. So, is it a complete creation or an incomplete creation? There is no better description of this stage of embryogenesis than the Qur'anic description, 'partly formed and partly unformed', as in the following verse:


      "WE created you Out of dust, then out of Sperm, then out of a leech-like Clot, then out of a morsel Of flesh, partly formed And partly unformed."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 22:5]
      Scientifically we know that at this early stage of development there are some cells which are differentiated and there are some cells that are undifferentiated---some organs are formed and yet others unformed.


      SENSE OF HEARING AND SIGHT


      Thefirst sense to develop in a developing human embryo is hearing. The foetus can hear sounds after the 24th wek. Subsequently, the sense of sight is developed and by the 28th week, the retina becomes sensitive to light. Consider the following Qur'anic verses related to the development of the senses in the embryo:


      "And HE gave You (the faculties of) hearing And sight and feeling (And understanding)."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 32:9]

      "Verily WE created Man from a drop Of mingled sperm, In order to try him: So WE gave him (the gifts), Of Hearing and Sight."

                                                                                                     [AL-QUR'AN 76:2]

      "It is HE WHO has created For you (the faculties of) Hearing, sight, feeling And understanding: little thanks It is ye give!"

                                                                                                   [AL-QUR'AN 23:78]

      In all these verses the sense of hearing is mentioned before that of sight. Thus the Qur'anic description matches with the discoveries in modern embryology.



      So bits plagiarised or bastardised from earlier faiths and stories, very vague, ingenuous information and open to later interpretations then.  Made all the worse by this knowledge, whilst not being the accepted truth of the time, was about for a long time before this.
      ORCHARD RED
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      • 8,526 posts | 1457 
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #114: Sep 19, 2014 10:15:22 pm
      There is no physical proof on earth of the existence of A God!  That's the bottom line for me.
      And don't tell me the Bible/Koran or whatever other book of written testaments from hundreds or thousands of years ago are proof.

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