Potential vs Proven

when we bought players back in the day we had scouts and the manager to give the final nod we bought on the experience of football men.
Now we can tell you how many sheets of toilet paper they use after a sh*t but we cant tell you if they will fit into the system or improve the team.

when we bought players back in the day we had scouts and the manager to give the final nod we bought on the experience of football men.
Now we can tell you how many sheets of toilet paper they use after a sh*t but we cant tell you if they will fit into the system or improve the team.

Even in this day and age with global ground to cover, surely common sense says it has to come down to the scouts and then manager on what they deem to be a good enough player for the team

F***ing businessmen thinking they know it all. Pisses me off

Even in this day and age with global ground to cover, surely common sense says it has to come down to the scouts and then manager on what they deem to be a good enough player for the team

F***ing businessmen thinking they know it all. Pisses me off

I wonder if they put far too much faith in stats and reports and not enough on actually watching players and I don't mean DVD's

Proven or potential either way have to be good enough and signings for a while have been a joke from signing Mark Kennedy aftrr having a good game v arse and Phil Babb having a good world cup see diouf also. Our scouting as been awful and the young academy players brought from abroad not one made it . Who watches these players we spend millions on or do we or go on hearsay or their name .

Essentially yo pay for what you get.

We seem to shop at Tesco's, overpriced average products.

Others at John Lewis, higher price, but you're guaranteed quality.

Aldi shoppers, lower price, good quality, but hard to find exactly what you want.

And then there are the designer shoppers.

You can fit most clubs into each category.

It all comes down to money. As I said, Tesco's you think you're getting a good deal, but you are paying over the odds.

We need to change our buying strategy and philosophy.

We either go up market, or go budget. Staying the same is a false economy.

I see we are interested in signing a player called Neto! Ironically he is not a striker, but a 'keeper 

Proven quality. That's all I'm saying, and yes, I did think it was obvious I was on about spending the extra for proven quality

And we have. Over the years we've spent a bomb on proven quality who clearly aren't up to the task. Our biggest problem is buying what is perceived as proven quality such as Johnson, Keane, Balotelli, Downing etc when they're actually not proven quality but rather players half decent players who shine in sh*t teams. (though I think there's plenty on here who can vouch that I never wanted any of those four )

And we have. Over the years we've spent a bomb on proven quality who clearly aren't up to the task. Our biggest problem is buying what is perceived as proven quality such as Johnson, Keane, Balotelli, Downing etc when they're actually not proven quality but rather players half decent players who shine in sh*t teams. (though I think there's plenty on here who can vouch that I never wanted any of those four )

I wholeheartedly agree!

there are certain types of player every team needs We had Kuyt City have Milner not my favourite player but he does his job.We had Craig Johnson, Steve McMahon Houghton etc not all world beaters but put them into a team environment and they thrive.
Alan Kennedy scored two winning goals in the European Cup he was never world class or even international class,Alan Hansen couldn't get a game for Scotland so if you used the methods we are using today I doubt we would ever have signed any of them.
Your not buying a player you are building a team its a jigsaw puzzle without picture to refer to.
We have players now but not a team the difference last year is we had the very best players in Luis and a very very good  partner in Daniel. Athletico won the league last year ahead of Madrid and Barca on a fraction of their budgets so its not all about money although we have all been brainwashed into thinking it is

Interesting read people, enjoyed that

Personally I think there is a few ways to look at where you are as a football club, how you are viewed and what you perceive yourself to be

Now I love this football club, along with my family it's my main concern in this life but I honestly think we have been unfortunate at when the money flooded into the game, when the premier league was formed in '92 we had got to the stage with our team at that point where we had been so successful but we had grown old together and the amount of rebuilding that squad needed then was a big job, so at that point where we were the biggest club in the land and had the biggest pulling power one of the highest spend we could have afforded a couple of years of rebuilding and it probably wouldn't have affected is too much.. However Utd got fairly lucky with that group of players who came through that year from their youth system at a time in English football when you could give them time to blood in the first team, they certainly 100% couldn't do it now, as is being proved.. Then the money flooded in, they were wining things, they grew in Europe and the rest is history.. While the f**k ups we made in that period we probably haven't really recovered from.
We were the biggest pull in the country, players were happy to come here and achieve all they wanted in the game from a domestic point of view, we didn't really have the global foreign influx we now have as European football was banned at that point, once it came back and the CL was starting to become what it is now we had fallen behind Utd, and the London based clubs as a place the best of the foreign talent saw as a place to go.

That for me is unlucky, had the '92 football world come in say '88 then we would be different to what we are now..
Now we are a massive club still but we are a club who have attempted to build and restart what 6 times or so in that period when we have financially been behind the rest, Utd in a squad sense are facing what we did in '92 but are a financial power house as they have ridden the football boom over the last 20 odd years and can pay their way through the issues more than we could or can.

In terms of players I get what Rush is saying and I agree to a certain extent, this squad is currently taking a lot of stick but can you imagine this base with 3-4 world class finished articles on top of what we have? A couple of Suarez abilities added? They are out there, other 'big' clubs add them, I'm afraid our mentality and ownership structures have not allowed us to think that's even possible and by proxy have convinced the majority of us that we shouldn't expect it.. That it's not really sensible business or we can't compete with those clubs in those markets..

Well you know what? If you don't compete with those clubs in those markets you won't f**king compete with them on the field

You know what I feel we need to get away from? We need to stop being that middle club in terms of transfers, we are seen as a great stepping stone nowadays for talent to get to one of those glamour clubs [as much as that hurts to admit] or we are somewhere the next level come to and think they have made it and peaked and it doesn't get any better than this.. Well the work shouldn't stop when you get here, it should only just begin.. I've seen Johnson mentioned in this thread, yeah right, perfect example.. It doesn't get better for him than this, he didn't get much of a sniff at Chelsea and was fu**ed off to Portsmouth and then gets a go here.. f**king hell I've made it, well in Glen, top money great club.. I'm happy with this, I don't want to go 'higher' again as I might not play...
Welcome comfort, welcome taking his foot off 5%.. Welcome us not pushing on again

Repeat that 50 times with the likes of Downing, Adam,Skrtel, Lovren and keep going

For those players they have made it being here, the hunger slightly goes

Tell you what give me 30 Suarez's who still have hunger to push on.. But rather than one at a time give me 5.. It may cost but we may actually have a chance to get back to that top table and stay there because one or two of them may still move but three may stay and we can continue to attract the next five.

Because I can guatentee that buying 16 Markovic's won't have us with a permanent brass name plate on that top table, but 4 Suarez's would

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

We used to have a reserve team full of potential when did we start filling the first team squad with wannabeeeeee's

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

Come on skip

Judge the man on what he does and has done but some things simply look like digs mate

Wasn't Shanks what 45 when he took the job having managed at Grimsby and Huddersfield and never in Div 1?

Couldn't the same be said of promoting from with of Bob or Joe who had never managed for themselves. They may have known the club but were not experienced managers and only potential was seen in them to continue.

Don't like the man fine, want him gone or not, fine.. But at least dig the man out for things that are relevant

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

Oooohh

EDIT: You know, if I think about it, I am much more concerned with what I can't see, the faces I don't see. What goes in the transfer committee board room, or, to sum up why I am so frustrated; do we even have one!?

I can't help shake the feeling that the Gaffer, whilst making a few odd decisions lately, is trying to manage us whilst trying to stop others interfering at the same time

Interesting read people, enjoyed that

Personally I think there is a few ways to look at where you are as a football club, how you are viewed and what you perceive yourself to be

Now I love this football club, along with my family it's my main concern in this life but I honestly think we have been unfortunate at when the money flooded into the game, when the premier league was formed in '92 we had got to the stage with our team at that point where we had been so successful but we had grown old together and the amount of rebuilding that squad needed then was a big job, so at that point where we were the biggest club in the land and had the biggest pulling power one of the highest spend we could have afforded a couple of years of rebuilding and it probably wouldn't have affected is too much.. However Utd got fairly lucky with that group of players who came through that year from their youth system at a time in English football when you could give them time to blood in the first team, they certainly 100% couldn't do it now, as is being proved.. Then the money flooded in, they were wining things, they grew in Europe and the rest is history.. While the f**k ups we made in that period we probably haven't really recovered from.
We were the biggest pull in the country, players were happy to come here and achieve all they wanted in the game from a domestic point of view, we didn't really have the global foreign influx we now have as European football was banned at that point, once it came back and the CL was starting to become what it is now we had fallen behind Utd, and the London based clubs as a place the best of the foreign talent saw as a place to go.

That for me is unlucky, had the '92 football world come in say '88 then we would be different to what we are now..
Now we are a massive club still but we are a club who have attempted to build and restart what 6 times or so in that period when we have financially been behind the rest, Utd in a squad sense are facing what we did in '92 but are a financial power house as they have ridden the football boom over the last 20 odd years and can pay their way through the issues more than we could or can.

In terms of players I get what Rush is saying and I agree to a certain extent, this squad is currently taking a lot of stick but can you imagine this base with 3-4 world class finished articles on top of what we have? A couple of Suarez abilities added? They are out there, other 'big' clubs add them, I'm afraid our mentality and ownership structures have not allowed us to think that's even possible and by proxy have convinced the majority of us that we shouldn't expect it.. That it's not really sensible business or we can't compete with those clubs in those markets..

Well you know what? If you don't compete with those clubs in those markets you won't f**king compete with them on the field

You know what I feel we need to get away from? We need to stop being that middle club in terms of transfers, we are seen as a great stepping stone nowadays for talent to get to one of those glamour clubs [as much as that hurts to admit] or we are somewhere the next level come to and think they have made it and peaked and it doesn't get any better than this.. Well the work shouldn't stop when you get here, it should only just begin.. I've seen Johnson mentioned in this thread, yeah right, perfect example.. It doesn't get better for him than this, he didn't get much of a sniff at Chelsea and was fu**ed off to Portsmouth and then gets a go here.. f**king hell I've made it, well in Glen, top money great club.. I'm happy with this, I don't want to go 'higher' again as I might not play...
Welcome comfort, welcome taking his foot off 5%.. Welcome us not pushing on again

Repeat that 50 times with the likes of Downing, Adam,Skrtel, Lovren and keep going

For those players they have made it being here, the hunger slightly goes

Tell you what give me 30 Suarez's who still have hunger to push on.. But rather than one at a time give me 5.. It may cost but we may actually have a chance to get back to that top table and stay there because one or two of them may still move but three may stay and we can continue to attract the next five.

Because I can guatentee that buying 16 Markovic's won't have us with a permanent brass name plate on that top table, but 4 Suarez's would

I don't think there's a fan out there who wouldn't agree with this Jon, every single one of us over the last 20 odd years wanted us to replace quality with quality, like we used to do but we have been brow beaten into believing it's not possible anymore. 

Our current owners have never been shy about how they would run the Club, they never gave us false promises like the last lot and as you say we've accepted that that's how it's going to be.

We're not happy about it, we can see the effect it has on the players who remain, we discuss on here often enough that it doesn't work from a footballing pov, that it's a never ending cycle of rebuilding and transition rather than keeping, building, strengthening and eventually winning.  Unfortunately for us and fortunately for them we are a captive audience, we aren't going to change which Club we support, we can vote with our wallets by stopping going to the match but there's always somebody else to take your seat and this lot would actually prefer the day trippers to the locals as they spend more when they attend.

The only way I see this policy, of buying potential rather than quality, changing is when our revenues will allow it.  When the refurbishment of Anfield is done, with a new naming partner and the new commercial team starts to bring in better sponsorship deals but to get the maximum possible, we need to be doing the business on the pitch consistantly and there we go back to square one again.

We all know what's needed, the players and Brendan know what's needed but pulling our hair out, despairing that it'll never happen, moping, whinging, whining and bickering amongst ourselves is not helping anyone.

Come on skip

Judge the man on what he does and has done but some things simply look like digs mate

Wasn't Shanks what 45 when he took the job having managed at Grimsby and Huddersfield and never in Div 1?

Couldn't the same be said of promoting from with of Bob or Joe who had never managed for themselves. They may have known the club but were not experienced managers and only potential was seen in them to continue.

Don't like the man fine, want him gone or not, fine.. But at least dig the man out for things that are relevant

Oooohh

EDIT: You know, if I think about it, I am much more concerned with what I can't see, the faces I don't see. What goes in the transfer committee board room, or, to sum up why I am so frustrated; do we even have one!?

I can't help shake the feeling that the Gaffer, whilst making a few odd decisions lately, is trying to manage us whilst trying to stop others interfering at the same time

Two wins in  seven games.... and millions spent.
That kind of money isnt going to come along again.

Rookie stuff.

FSG's decision.

Two wins in  seven games.... and millions spent.
That kind of money isnt going to come along again.

Rookie stuff.

FSG's decision.

You're missing my point
I'll leave you too it lad

You're missing my point
I'll leave you too it lad

I'm not PD  .... I can assure you I'm not.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

I'm not PD  .... I can assure you I'm not.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

When you put it like that, it's pretty hard to argue against

I'm not PD  .... I can assure you I'm not.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

That's fine but your post a few back didn't state that, that's criticising him for something you believe that has substance to it.

Your half filled bollocks dig about him being potential holds no argument as we have hired managers with potential over proven history throughout the last 60 years of the club


You know what, slag him off, I have no issue with that as he is there in that position and currently we are struggling and the points you make stack up to him..

However one line digs with no substance is a waste of every bodies time

That's fine but your post a few back didn't state that, that's criticising him for something you believe that has substance to it.

Your half filled bollocks dig about him being potential holds no argument as we have hired managers with potential over proven history throughout the last 60 years of the club


You know what, slag him off, I have no issue with that as he is there in that position and currently we are struggling and the points you make stack up to him..

However one line digs with no substance is a waste of every bodies time

What a constructive post PD.


At least I dont hide.

When you put it like that, it's pretty hard to argue against

Thanks Rush .   

What a constructive post PD.


At least I dont hide.

You do though.. You hide behind snidey comments like the one I first quoted which has no substance at all

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

This isn't hiding and is fine, great something people can debate.

The sly dig about him being potential is rubbish as we have had many many managers with no prior pedigree at the highest level before they came here including our two most successful managers..
It doesn't matter he had no pedigree prior to coming here as it didn't with Bill or employing from within with Bob or Joe.. Just because it worked and was great with them doesn't mean that you forget those facts.. Brendan may well get through this and make us succesful ( I don't think he will as I'm not sure many could in the modern game and the ownership we run under) but to put a post which wasn't constructive either (using your words) is wasting every bodies time reading it as it simply looks petty.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

This great.. No problem, it's honest and has substance


Unproductive snidey comments really add nothing, it doesn't matter where he came from, how old he is, who he's f**king, what his teeth look like..
History has proven with our club we have brought managers from nowhere to be great successes.. Judge him on his actions not where he came from

He has got questions to answer and problems to solve, asking questions on those are better than comments with no substance and you're better than that skip, I've read your stuff

If he doesn't solve them he will get sacked and to be honest I don't care if he is or not as all I want is a successful club..

Part of the reason we buy younger players is it slightly circumvents the fair play rules.  Quite a few stories in the last few months saying we skated close to the edge of those rules as it was.