Trending Topics

      Next match: Betis v LFC [Friendly] Sat 27th Jul @ 12:30 am
      Acrisure Stadium

      Today is the 16th of June and on this date LFC's match record is P0 W0 D0 L0

      Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion

      Read 16462 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      donrafael
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,645 posts | 48 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #161: Oct 25, 2007 11:05:31 am
      Don,  I have been agreeing to much of what you have been saying.  But Leto in for Finnan!!  Leto is a Left-sided midfielder. Not a right-sided defender/wingback

      Agreed. Cock-up of the highest order...

      Who could do a job there on Sunday?

      Steve's confidence is surely shot after last night - getting massacred in the press too... very unfair to play him on Sunday IMHO.

      AA (IF fit) could do a job... but who covers centre back instead of Sami... too big a game to risk Agger back. Hobbs?

      Rafa has his work cut-out to produce a confident, hard, fresh back-four for Sunday... even JC looking shaky...
      « Last Edit: Oct 25, 2007 11:08:24 am by donrafael »
      Boot
      • Forum Ian St John
      • ***

      • 438 posts |
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #162: Oct 25, 2007 11:07:38 am
      Let you off. I assume you meant Babel

      Sorry, couldn't help myself
      donrafael
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,645 posts | 48 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #163: Oct 25, 2007 11:15:35 am
      Why hasn't anyone come out and said we were sh*t...

      Rafa should be saying this even... or are our players that sensitive ffs...

      THE LADS NEED A BIG KICK UP THE CULO. END OF.

      We are NOT playing well.

      Possesion football without goals (when you are behind in game) is like leading the F1 championship all season, but not winning it....ouch.
      Boot
      • Forum Ian St John
      • ***

      • 438 posts |
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #164: Oct 25, 2007 11:27:05 am
      I agree Donrafael. 

      Having great players does not make you a great team.

      Our passing yesterday, from everyone was crap (Putting it kindly).  Gerrard was hitting some so hard the player could not control it.  We need to get back to basics.  Everybody was trying to make the killer pass, instead of the easy 5-10 yard pass to someone in space.

      I personally think Rafa should take the boys somewhere for a team building excercise.
      donrafael
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,645 posts | 48 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #165: Oct 25, 2007 11:33:27 am
      On reflection, I think the crowd REALLY got to our boys.

      Apparently they arrived at the stadium 30 minutes early - which given the state of that stadium was not a good thing.

      But you can't catalogue excuses - it's about Delivery at this level of football.

      Our lads are highly rewarded professional footballers, playing at the highest level of the game. Deep down they know the did NOT deliver - Deep down they know they must do much better, Individually and Collectively.

      That is why I hope that by Sunday, and after a couple of Rafa come-to-jesus sessions at Melwood, we will re-group and kick some Arsenal ass come Sunday afternoon - nothing better than a big game to flush turkish sh*t out of your system.

      COME -ON- YOU REDS.

      In Rafa (we still) Trust.
      EddieC
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 5,557 posts | 233 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #166: Oct 25, 2007 12:15:11 pm
      There has been something absent in this squad ever since:
      1) Paco's departure
      2) Alonso's and Agger's injuries

      I think 2) has had a lot more influence than 1) TBH. I think everyone knew we were gonna miss Agger when he got injured, but not so much Alonso. A lot of people on here were too quick to slate Alonso earlier this season IMO, I stuck up for him at the time saying he does a lot that goes unnoticed in the game, and it only seems to be in his abscense that people acknowledge this fact.

      Going back to last nights game, I've had a bit of time to reflect on things now. Reina didn't have a chance with the own goal but could maybe have done better for the second, apart from that & one other save I can't recall him having to do anything else all night. I completely agree with donrafael that Hyypia can't play this many games in succession anymore and it showed last night, if Agger or Arbeloa isn't back for Sunday it will have to be either Jack Hobbs or play someone out of position (Mascherano possibly?). I feel sorry for Sami cos he's inevitably gonna take a lot of stick, but I feel Rafa should've known he was asking too much of him to start with. Carragher's performance was hard to judge as he was having to do a lot of covering for Sami, not his greatest game but I think this had a lot to do with it. He needs to learn sometimes though that he was the one at fault, a couple of occassions he was screaming at his colleagues for something he had done. Both our fullbacks were poor, but for different reasons. In terms of skills like passing and tackling Riise pretty much got it right, but tactically he was all over the place, his runs were mistimed and he was caught too high up the pitch on a number of occassions. Finnan too was unusually poor, everything he did just seemed to go wrong last night, most notably the bizarre chain of events leading to the first goal. His passing was wayward & some of his tackling left a lot to be desired, let's just hope normal service is resumed from 'Mr Reliable' on Sunday.

      In midfield, Gerrard is starting to get back to his usual self but I thought he was trying a bit too hard last night, attempting something fancy when the simple ball would have been easier & just as effective. Babel showed a lot of endeavour, ok he might not have got everything right but he was one of the few that was actually trying to make something happen. There were times I actually forgot Macherano was on the pitch, he didn't seem to be very involved in the game, but I can't recall him doing anything in particular wrong. I think this was the wrong game for him TBH, his strength is breaking up the oppositions attck, and there was never gonna be too much of that in this game. Pennant was poor, he didn't really get anything wrong going forward but that was because he didn't try anything, I'd much rather he tried & failed half the time as that would mean he was successful the other half. Defensively he offered absolutely nothing though, and definitely helped contribute to Finnan's poor performance. The difference was plain to see when Benayoun came on, he offered a lot more both going forward & in defence, and was a lot of peoples contender fo man of the match.

      Up front I feel if Torres is out then Babel has to move there from the wing. Kuyt & Voronin just doesn't work, neither has that unpredictability about them that it takes to trouble defences. Either one of them would be good alongside a creative player, but together they become mundane & easy to defend against. I was surprised at the number of people calling for Crouch to come on considering that most people seem to want him sold in January, the poor lad must be wondering what he has to do to get a bit of gametime though, 10 minutes was nowhere near enough.

      In terms of tactics & selection the only real mistake I think Rafa made was playing Hyypia, apart from that the way we setup should've won the game. The players just didn't play well enough, the amount of shots we had we should've buried them. Seems like the same story as last season, lots of shots but no goals to show for them, I still maintain we should've bought an out and out goalscorer in the summer. One thing the team definitely needs to work on is getting on the end of crosses. Near enough every cross, corner or free kick from a wide area was met by a Besiktas player, this has been an ongoing problem for a while now, you have to wonder if we actually practice this in training?

      All in all a very bad night, and I'm still just as pissed off today, but it's done now & we have to look forwards. I hate to say it but I think the Champions League could well be beyond our reach now, so we'll have to focus on domestic competitions. Here's hoping to a better result on Sunday to put the smiles back on our faces.
      Olliver
      • Forum Emlyn Hughes
      • ****

      • 778 posts | 11 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #167: Oct 25, 2007 12:16:51 pm
       I think  a problem is not in a coach, not in rotation, in changing, not in lineup, not injured players, not in motivation and players at all. Our problem is that we have no problems. It's boring not to have problems and everything is alright. So we need to create it to overcome. So problem is in ourselves.
       In the start of the season with all quantity of necessary quality players, without injured players and a team playing very well there are people who think we can't still win PL and CL at the same time. It's strange?!
       The season when we won CL with a collection of injured players and without any top-class players we couldn't even think we managed to do that. WE were focused on playing and building a team not results and winnings.
       Now we are focused only on winning, forgetting about playing. It means wee forget about that to win you even need to play football.
       To-morning when I turned on the radio, I heard the lines of famous song:
       Everything gonna be alright
       Everything gonna be OK
       No doubts

       That can be answered by lines of Robbie Williams "Love supreme"
       DO you BELIEVE?
       WE MUST BELIEVE!
       
       Any solutions?
       Let's look for them, not for problems!!!
      Nicola
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,117 posts | -7 
      • YNWA
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #168: Oct 25, 2007 12:32:48 pm
      Oh my god. My post is going to be short because I haven't seen any of the game really, only quick clips of the goals.
      What a BRILLIANT header by Stevie G! Also, if that goal is given to Hyypia, looks a bit harsh because from what I Saw it didn't take much of a deflection off him, but ah well. Our defence didn't seem to know what they were doing (in the tiny clips I saw, as I said)
      McAteer was on SSN this morning saying that Kuyt and Voronin upfront was the wrong choice and he wouldn't have chosen them.
      Winning the remaining 3 games is possible if we play better than we seem to be doing lately. Arsenal will absolutely rape us on Sunday, and hopefully Cardiff get a decent game on Wednesday :D But I just don't understand what's going on!

      Oh and McAteer was saying there was a brill atmosphere? I don't know.
      koolkidda
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,007 posts | 41 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #169: Oct 25, 2007 12:53:33 pm
      McAteer? Jason McAteer?

      Winner of .... what?
      EddieC
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 5,557 posts | 233 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #170: Oct 25, 2007 12:55:51 pm
      McAteer? Jason McAteer?

      Winner of .... what?

      There was a very good reason he was known as Trigger by his team mates, although I have to agree that Voronin & Kuyt wasn't the best choice.
      donrafael
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,645 posts | 48 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #171: Oct 25, 2007 12:56:14 pm
      ...if Agger or Arbeloa isn't back for Sunday it will have to be either Jack Hobbs or play someone out of position (Mascherano possibly?).

      ...I think the Champions League could well be beyond our reach now, so we'll have to focus on domestic competitions.

      Mascherano is only small - tigerish yes, but giraffe he aint... Adebayor, Gallas, Toure or Senderos would have a field day with him at CB in the air. Got to be baptism of fire for Hobbs if Arbeloa not available and Agger injured.

      There is always the UEFA Cup... but we need to finish 3rd in the group for that and a currently bottom/4th.

      Get a feeling Rafa is going to go for broke and play a really attacking midfield on Sunday to compensate.

      SG XA(holding) LL RB

      with FT and PC up-front.

      That would put a smile back on my face.

      Delivery time.
      Boot
      • Forum Ian St John
      • ***

      • 438 posts |
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #172: Oct 25, 2007 12:58:51 pm
      Alessio.  Are you Rafa in disguise.

      The problem is we have too many little problems.

      For example.

      Passing is poor
      Defending is poor
      Problems scoring
      low morale
      Not creating enough clear cut chances
      Poor crossing
      Poor at set-pieces
      Poor at defending set-pieces
      etc, etc.

      Good at penalties though
      AJ
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 6,445 posts | 124 
      • Boom!
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #173: Oct 25, 2007 01:06:38 pm
      Poor poor performance in my eyes the only positive we can take from it is that Gerrard is scoring spectacular goals again.  This has to be forgotten and we need to up our game starting with giving some of our reserve team a shout and doing all we can to make sure Hyypia keeps off the score sheet ffs.

      We now need to win our last few games in the CL if we want to consider qualifying in this tournament. 

      Come on Torres we need you!
      crouchinho
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 42,508 posts | 2620 
      • TU TA LOUCO? FILHO DA PUTA!
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #174: Oct 25, 2007 01:13:55 pm
      Alessio.  Are you Rafa in disguise.

      The problem is we have too many little problems.

      For example.

      Passing is poor
      Defending is poor
      Problems scoring
      low morale
      Not creating enough clear cut chances
      Poor crossing
      Poor at set-pieces
      Poor at defending set-pieces
      etc, etc.

      Good at penalties though

      Little problems?
      Those arent very little, they are key to a winning side!
      crouchinho
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 42,508 posts | 2620 
      • TU TA LOUCO? FILHO DA PUTA!
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #175: Oct 25, 2007 01:16:52 pm
      Poor poor performance in my eyes the only positive we can take from it is that Gerrard is scoring spectacular goals again.  This has to be forgotten and we need to up our game starting with giving some of our reserve team a shout and doing all we can to make sure Hyypia keeps off the score sheet ffs.

      We now need to win our last few games in the CL if we want to consider qualifying in this tournament. 

      Come on Torres we need you!

      Well said. Gerrard is having a go at goal now, probably the only positive to come out of the game. Hobbs in for Hyypia please!!!! Would have loved to have Paul Anderson right now to give him a shout on the wing.
      donrafael
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,645 posts | 48 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #176: Oct 25, 2007 01:18:50 pm
      Alessio.  Are you Rafa in disguise.

      The problem is we have too many little problems.

      For example.

      Passing is poor
      Defending is poor
      Problems scoring
      low morale
      Not creating enough clear cut chances
      Poor crossing
      Poor at set-pieces
      Poor at defending set-pieces
      etc, etc.

      Good at penalties though

      I thought we were quite good at "etc, etc"... maybe it's just me.

      Trying desperately to raise my own fecking morale before the possible pasting on Sunday.

      The Carling Cup was so painful - but Sunday could be terrible. Preparing myself - just in case.
      Boot
      • Forum Ian St John
      • ***

      • 438 posts |
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #177: Oct 25, 2007 01:36:24 pm
      No Donrafael.  We used to be good at etc, etc.  Been poor lately.
      koolkidda
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,007 posts | 41 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #178: Oct 25, 2007 01:41:32 pm
      So if we win our last three games in the CL group then we're through?

      Sorry folks. This may make painful reading.

      Current table.

                       P   W   D   L   F   A   GD   PTS
      1 Marseille   3    2   1    0   4  1    3      7
      2 FC Porto   3    1   2    0   3  2    1      5
      3 Beşiktaş   3    1    0    2   2 4   -2      3
      4 Liverpool  3    0    1    2   2 4   -2      1

      If we win our last three and Porto beat Besiktas and Marseille, with Marseille beating Besiktas then

      Worst Case Scenario if we win all our final 3

                         P   Pts
      1 FC Porto    6    11
      2 Marseille     6    10
      3 Liverpool    6    10
      4 Besiktas     6    3

      I am unsure if goal difference counts before the results against Marseile but hammering Marseille is clearly essential.
      Tayls
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 5,378 posts | 510 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #179: Oct 25, 2007 01:53:03 pm
      I agree with a number of posts concerning some of our recent problems. It's hard to say whether Pako leaving has had that big an effect, obviously it's not going to be a help, but I think the bigger problem (as someone else mentioned) is the injuries to Agger and Alonso. Watching that Besiktas game was actually painful. I think someone else expressed it as anger, not dissappointment like normal when LFC lose, and I agree. I can't remember the last time I shouted so much. The amount of times our attacks fell apart due to a bad final ball, or didn't even get going when we miss the first pass was ludicrous. There's no way we can do that against Arsenal and not expect a pasting. Which is why I'm so happy Alonso will be back, as on form he brings stability, passing prowess, and instead of having Sami knock a long ball up front, we get Alonso spraying it all over the place. Also I think Gerrard tends to drop less deep when Xabi plays, as he knows the spainaird can make the passes and sort himself out on his own. Despite Masch being a decent passer, he's not on Xabi's level, and so perhaps Stevie G thinks Masch needs more support deeper in the midfield.

      It's pretty clear Hyypia is coming to the end of his fantastic service to this club. I seem to remember he was bought for pennies, and he's been a brilliant buy, but he's just getting old, and I don't trust him to keep up with the pace of some strikers these days. Younger cover is needed for Agger, and if Hobbs isn't up to it, we need to get someone in during the Jan transfer window.

      What was also pretty obvious was lack of 'bite' up front. Babel and Gerrard looked the most dangerous players on the pitch; Kuyt and Voronin really do not seem to work well together. Voronin has great movement and reads the game well, but his finishing has let him down recently, and his decision making in the final third seems a little suspect. Kuyt is a superb player, and I really do rate him, but when playing up with Voronin he really doesn't seem to threaten. Can anyone remember either of them having a clear cut chance as a result of open play? I think Voronin might have gone through once, and scuffed the shot when he could have squared it. As soon as he came on, Crouch looked dangerous and different. Whilst he didn't get the assist for Gerrard's goal, he was there to knock it back across, and caused the defence to play the ball again, which can lead to mistakes as it did.

      There's no way in hell I'm going to call for Rafa's head. He's the best man for the job, and to I'd like to remind those who are saying he should be sacked of a game in 2004/2005 season. Remember when we lost to Burnley in the FA Cup (Traore's astounding own goal...), and Rafa was heavily critised for his team selection? What happened at the end of that season? Trust Rafa, and wait to judge his team selections at the end of the season, when we can see the whole picture.
      aw1
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,303 posts | 22 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #180: Oct 25, 2007 02:01:40 pm
      Current table.

                       P   W   D   L   F   A   GD   PTS
      1 Marseille   3    2   1    0   4  1    3      7
      2 FC Porto   3    1   2    0   3  2    1      5
      3 Beşiktaş   3    1    0    2   2 4   -2      3
      4 Liverpool  3    0    1    2   2 4   -2      1

      If we win our last three ,we still need porto to draw or lose one of their game(lets say draw home to marseille)

                         P   Pts
      1 Marseille     6    11
      2 Liverpool    6    10
      3 Porto        6    9
      4 Besiktas     6    3

      « Last Edit: Oct 25, 2007 02:06:54 pm by koolkidda »
      koolkidda
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,007 posts | 41 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #181: Oct 25, 2007 02:07:42 pm
      This thread isn't for speculating on what the final table will be.

      I was merely highlighting the fact that even if we win all three we aren't guaranteed qualification.
      scouser_10
      • Forum Ian St John
      • ***

      • 430 posts | -12 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #182: Oct 25, 2007 02:44:38 pm
      If Rafa had actually put faith and trust in a consistent squad week-in week-out, we wouldnt be going into the Arsenal game with 99% of out players shot of confidence....We barely have any fresh-confident legs, who we can bring on and do a decent job for us against arsenal....the only one in my mind is our wonder boy El Nino.....fresh and confident, and hopefully ready to rip the Arsenal defence to shreads....Which personally, i dont rate their defence at all...
      JD
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 39,687 posts | 6981 
      Re: Besiktas v Liverpool - Post Match Discussion
      Reply #183: Oct 25, 2007 03:05:31 pm
      The stats suggest we were unlucky.

      Quick Reply