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      Emre Can (Defensive Midfielder)?

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      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Emre Can (Defensive Midfielder)?
      Reply #23: Dec 28, 2014 11:08:22 pm
      What are you talking about? When We play 4-3-3 we don't have a DM? I guess you haven't been watching us much, have you?

      Wait, what?

      A "DM" needs to be able to position himself intelligently, press, tackle and lay the ball off to start transitional play. Gerrard is poor at all four of those things.It is true that he is the deepest midfielder so ends up in more defensive positions compared to the other two in the 1433 system but his role actually as DLPM in that system similar to Alonso or Pirlo not a "DM". The roles are quite different.

      I think you are misunderstanding the role.

      Alonso wasn't a DM he was a Deep Lying Playmaker (a DLPM) like Pirlo.

      In Milan, Pirlo needed Gattuso to do the running, pressing and put in the tackles for him. At Juve, Marchisio and Vidal did the same. In the Italian side De Rossi performs the same role when the other two aren't available.

      Alonso needed to play alongside Hamann, Masch or Leiva for the same reason. At Real, Diarra and Khedeira and at Bayern, Lahm and Martinez protect him.

      In terms of a defensive midfielder, Masch is a better tackler and Hamann was more mobile but in terms of overall play as a DM Leiva is equal to both of them with notably better positioning and distribution.


      There is no specialist "DM" role in either of the preferred formations the manager prefers. The team as a whole is expected to defend and press as a whole rather than leaving it to a "spoiler". Otherwise the formation would be named a 14123 instead of a 1433.

      That's why he didn't buy a specialist "DM" whilst he was at Reading, he didn't buy a "DM" whilst he spent two years in charge of Swansea and he has never bought a "DM" in all of the transfer windows he has been the manager of our football club. In fact, the only recognised "DM" we have, in Lucas, has until recently been rumoured to be leaving in January without being replaced - though recent results may make Brendan change his mind. Hence my original point.

      Thanks for the patronising comment though - they're always funniest coming from someone who doesn't know the basics.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Emre Can (Defensive Midfielder)?
      Reply #24: Dec 29, 2014 01:03:30 am
      Too damn right he ought to be defensive midfielder - in fact, get him starting there now.

      With Gerrard and Lucas constantly (to the frustration of many fans including myself) being deployed as defensive midfielders, we are letting the opposition overrun us all the time thanks to Gerrard and Lucas's lack of mobility.

      Can has the pressing and mobility to help ease defensive worries and link up with attacks - Gerrard and Lucas are constantly damaging our ability to defend and attack. The odd glory ball from Gerrard in one match is quite frankly not nearly contributory enough from the captain and we need players who will contribute throughout 90 minutes. Bring him on during the latter stages when the game is stretched, that is perhaps the best impact we can hope for from Gerrard.

      I think Lucas has done a good job. In fact, currently, I'd have him ahead of Henderson, Gerrard and Allen in midfield. I wouldn't mind seeing him with Can in a midfield "two". They could compliment each other nicely.
      Canuck33
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      Re: Emre Can (Defensive Midfielder)?
      Reply #25: Dec 29, 2014 01:11:32 am
      Wait, what?

      A "DM" needs to be able to position himself intelligently, press, tackle and lay the ball off to start transitional play. Gerrard is poor at all four of those things.It is true that he is the deepest midfielder so ends up in more defensive positions compared to the other two in the 1433 system but his role actually as DLPM in that system similar to Alonso or Pirlo not a "DM". The roles are quite different.

      There is no specialist "DM" role in either of the preferred formations the manager prefers. The team as a whole is expected to defend and press as a whole rather than leaving it to a "spoiler". Otherwise the formation would be named a 14123 instead of a 1433.

      That's why he didn't buy a specialist "DM" whilst he was at Reading, he didn't buy a "DM" whilst he spent two years in charge of Swansea and he has never bought a "DM" in all of the transfer windows he has been the manager of our football club. In fact, the only recognised "DM" we have, in Lucas, has until recently been rumoured to be leaving in January without being replaced - though recent results may make Brendan change his mind. Hence my original point.

      Thanks for the patronising comment though - they're always funniest coming from someone who doesn't know the basics.

      Who cares what you call him? Rodgers played Gerrard as the deepest midfielder for a big portion of last season, to do the defending when everyone ahead of him got overrun. You can call it DLPM as much as you want, and Rodgers can call it that too in his 180 page whatever. But when the smoke clears, he played him as a DM, to shield the back line.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Emre Can (Defensive Midfielder)?
      Reply #26: Dec 29, 2014 06:50:35 am
      Who cares what you call him? Rodgers played Gerrard as the deepest midfielder for a big portion of last season, to do the defending when everyone ahead of him got overrun. You can call it DLPM as much as you want, and Rodgers can call it that too in his 180 page whatever. But when the smoke clears, he played him as a DM, to shield the back line.

      No, he isn't there to "shield the back line" that's the point.

      That's why he's not a "DM". It's an entirely different role within the formation not just calling someone by a different label.

      It's like calling Allen the striker rather than a central midfielder just because he will take some shots "when the smoke clears and there is noone else in front of him".

      As pointed out in my previous post, if you can't appreciate the obvious difference, you won't realise how the rest of the midfield is set up to allow the DLPM to work, let alone how the centre backs and goalkeeper should be playing behind them.

      Having a basic understanding of the position is the key to understanding the system. Replace Gerrard, Alonso or Pirlo with a "DM" whose strengths are shielding and tackling in those systems and watch what happens to the team as a whole.

      That's the point you are missing. Can might be better defensively but is he ready to consistently run the game and create the play at the heart of the team like those three?

      Back to the original point, we could try him in a 14231 alongside Lucas as a "DM" but the results of doing that with Mascherano and Lucas weren't spectacular even when they were the best two DMs in the league, better fullbacks and a goalkeeper who allowed the centre backs to compress the play behind them rather than sticking rigidly to his line.

      The entire system is predicated on trying to maximise Gerrard's strengths and negate his weaknesses. Simply swopping him for Can unbalances the whole team even further since they are completely different players.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Emre Can (Defensive Midfielder)?
      Reply #27: Dec 29, 2014 10:07:37 am
      This worries me as to why he bought him, only time i saw a full game when Can played in defense was when a sh*t Moyes united put 5 past them and Can was the worst player on the pitch.

      Was playing left back from what I remember. Also players do have a bad game and the fact they got destroyed suggests it was a team problem, not an individual one.

      Believe eit or not, even the likes of Suarez have bad games.

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