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      Roberto Firmino Player Thread (F)

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      Swab
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2093: May 03, 2019 01:12:24 pm
      Remember, those pundits know more than you and have access to information you can dream of ;)

      Firmino isn't a natural striker like your Suarez, Defoe, Fowler, Torres, Giroud, D.Costa etc. He is a natural false 9/second striker/#10.  You know it and just being difficult and stubborn... but then again, you think every player has the same level of techincal ability at the highest level.

      Like I said before, we have played with Salah as the 9 and Firmino the 10 and it has worked. And let me remind you again, wanting an alternative is not about wanting to replace Firmino.

      No, they don't.
      They have access to TV footage, and that's it, oh and a few OPTA stats that are worthless without context.

      Another tired old cliche comes to the fore in "not a natural striker" as if that isn't just more pundit bullshit, and as I've explained countless times, the 3 forwards rotate during a match, meaning that all 3 of them will be in what you think is the "9 position" at one point.
      None of our forwards play a fixed position.
      They rotate, end of story.

      And again I ask myself, why would anyone want to disrupt a system that has scored so many goals.
      The answer of course, is because a pundit said so.  :roll:

      oh, and FYI, elite players all have similar levels of ability.
      The difference between them is speed of thought, ability to see things quickly, physical differences and more speed of thought.
      I don't expect you to understand this until a pundit says it though.
      « Last Edit: May 03, 2019 01:18:37 pm by Swab »
      heimdall
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2094: May 03, 2019 01:23:04 pm
      No, they don't.
      They have access to TV footage, and that's it, oh and a few OPTA stats that are worthless without context.

      Another tired old cliche comes to the fore in "not a natural striker" as if that isn't just more pundit bullshit, and as I've explained countless times, the 3 forwards rotate during a match, meaning that all 3 of them will be in what you think is the "9 position" at one point.
      None of our forwards play a fixed position.
      They rotate, end of story.

      And again I ask myself, why would anyone want to disrupt a system that has scored so many goals.
      The answer of course, is because a pundit said so.  :roll:

      oh, and FYI, elite players all have similar levels of ability.
      The difference between them is speed of thought, ability to see things quickly, physical differences and more speed of thought.
      I don't expect you to understand this until a pundit says it though.

      So if all the forwards rotate all match how come Bobby has so few goals again then compared to Sadio and Mo??
      Bobby plays a key role in our team as a link man for our two main strikers but I would love for him to score even more goals, same as I would love for our midfielders to score more goals.
      Kopite78
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2095: May 03, 2019 02:01:25 pm
      So if all the forwards rotate all match how come Bobby has so few goals again then compared to Sadio and Mo??
      Bobby plays a key role in our team as a link man for our two main strikers but I would love for him to score even more goals, same as I would love for our midfielders to score more goals.

      Yeah let's have everyone in the team score 15-20 a season

      Our team is built to get the best out of Mo and Sadio..
      Bobby, the midfield and the full backs are integral in that.. the midfield don't really break beyond the front three to get the numbers that say a Stevie or Lamaprd got in their hay day, they narrow the pitch to allow the full backs space

      If they decide to blam shots from all sorts of angles then  you'd likely find us easily countered on with our full backs so high and the retention on the ball gone

      Bobbys numbers are good to say he's mainly a creative pivot for the rest of the side and a first line of the press.. he's got 43 goals all comps over the last two season which is pretty much one in two

      The essence here is if we brought in a "traditional" number 9 he wouldn't likely be the first line of the press as effectively as Bobby is and because those type are (rightfully so on the right system) selfish would the increase on Bobbys 21.5 a season to maybe 30 a season take away from Mo  and Sadios numbers? (Sadio more this year than last because if you look at Sadio and Bobby over the last two years there's like one goal between them)

      I personally think dropping a "proper number 9" into this side would change the dynamics of it too much and not in a positive way

      Personally I'd prefer we have more better options of the types we have now than have a different option
      We'd be far better off having rotation that suited our current style than a different style
      Swab
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2096: May 03, 2019 02:08:55 pm
      Yeah let's have everyone in the team score 15-20 a season

      Our team is built to get the best out of Mo and Sadio..
      Bobby, the midfield and the full backs are integral in that.. the midfield don't really break beyond the front three to get the numbers that say a Stevie or Lamaprd got in their hay day, they narrow the pitch to allow the full backs space

      If they decide to blam shots from all sorts of angles then  you'd likely find us easily countered on with our full backs so high and the retention on the ball gone

      Bobbys numbers are good to say he's mainly a creative pivot for the rest of the side and a first line of the press.. he's got 43 goals all comps over the last two season which is pretty much one in two

      The essence here is if we brought in a "traditional" number 9 he wouldn't likely be the first line of the press as effectively as Bobby is and because those type are (rightfully so on the right system) selfish would the increase on Bobbys 21.5 a season to maybe 30 a season take away from Mo  and Sadios numbers? (Sadio more this year than last because if you look at Sadio and Bobby over the last two years there's like one goal between them)

      I personally think dropping a "proper number 9" into this side would change the dynamics of it too much and not in a positive way

      Personally I'd prefer we have more better options of the types we have now than have a different option
      We'd be far better off having rotation that suited our current style than a different style

      Exactly.
      Klopp even stated in his presser that "some think we need a number 9 but whatever" (or words to that effect) so it's obvious this whole shitshow is posters just repeating what they've heard pundits say.

      F**k the pundits, trust the gaffer, he knows best what he wants and how to get it.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2097: May 03, 2019 03:24:24 pm
      No, they don't.
      They have access to TV footage, and that's it, oh and a few OPTA stats that are worthless without context.

      Still more than we can dream of. Don't forget, they are better qualified with years of experience that you can only dream of, and they get to go watch the games live and have probably watched more live games than you have had hot dinners. Remember how you kept bitching at people for questioning Klopp because they didn't have the information and experience he has? Same should apply to you when you criticise these pundits, you know.

      Another tired old cliche comes to the fore in "not a natural striker" as if that isn't just more pundit bullshit, and as I've explained countless times, the 3 forwards rotate during a match, meaning that all 3 of them will be in what you think is the "9 position" at one point.
      None of our forwards play a fixed position.
      They rotate, end of story.

      Okay, sorry, Firmino can play like Fowler or Owen if asked to, he can also play like Carroll or a Drogba...  :roll:

      Also, why are you so obsessed with bringing fixed positions up? No one has mentioned it but you, and if you actually go watch other games with strikers in their team, you will see they can be fluid. You make it sound like every striker is a Benteke, seriously.

      I swear, I seen the same sh*t about a DM and how Klopp wouldn't go for one.....

      And again I ask myself, why would anyone want to disrupt a system that has scored so many goals.
      The answer of course, is because a pundit said so.

      Wtf? Klopp has disrupted the normal system already. Have you not seen us play? Is it so difficult to understand or see that we have at times, played differently to how we normally have under Klopp? Perhaps I should find P.Neville's analysis for him to school you?

      oh, and FYI, elite players all have similar levels of ability.
      The difference between them is speed of thought, ability to see things quickly, physical differences and more speed of thought.
      I don't expect you to understand this until a pundit says it though.

      Just fface it, some players don't have similar levels of ability. Kante and Hendo doesn't have the same as Verratti, Arthur or Pjanic, nor does Lukaku has similar abilities to Rashford etc etc. And by not having similar levels of ability and physicality, they form a different way of playing, and playing to their strengths rather than their weaknesses.

      You fail so much, Swab, seriously.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2098: May 03, 2019 03:32:30 pm
      Exactly.
      Klopp even stated in his presser that "some think we need a number 9 but whatever" (or words to that effect) so it's obvious this whole shitshow is posters just repeating what they've heard pundits say.

      F**k the pundits, trust the gaffer, he knows best what he wants and how to get it.

      Yeah let's have everyone in the team score 15-20 a season

      Our team is built to get the best out of Mo and Sadio..
      Bobby, the midfield and the full backs are integral in that.. the midfield don't really break beyond the front three to get the numbers that say a Stevie or Lamaprd got in their hay day, they narrow the pitch to allow the full backs space

      If they decide to blam shots from all sorts of angles then  you'd likely find us easily countered on with our full backs so high and the retention on the ball gone

      Bobbys numbers are good to say he's mainly a creative pivot for the rest of the side and a first line of the press.. he's got 43 goals all comps over the last two season which is pretty much one in two

      The essence here is if we brought in a "traditional" number 9 he wouldn't likely be the first line of the press as effectively as Bobby is and because those type are (rightfully so on the right system) selfish would the increase on Bobbys 21.5 a season to maybe 30 a season take away from Mo  and Sadios numbers? (Sadio more this year than last because if you look at Sadio and Bobby over the last two years there's like one goal between them)

      I personally think dropping a "proper number 9" into this side would change the dynamics of it too much and not in a positive way

      Personally I'd prefer we have more better options of the types we have now than have a different option
      We'd be far better off having rotation that suited our current style than a different style

      It's as simple as this, we have used Firmino as the 10 with a 9 ahead of him and Mane and Shaq/Lallana either side this season. It can work.

      I would prefer a 9, Firmino, Salah and Mane instead of having to bring Shaq or Lallana in.
      Kopite78
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2099: May 03, 2019 03:36:31 pm
      It's as simple as this, we have used Firmino as the 10 with a 9 ahead of him and Mane and Shaq/Lallana either side this season. It can work.

      I would prefer a 9, Firmino, Salah and Mane instead of having to bring Shaq or Lallana in.

      Didn't work that well though, god the moaning on here when he did that was constant and it gives you one  less in the middle of the park

      Could work against your Huddersfields but you'd get over run against  most good sides

      Hence why Klopp prefers a Keita now he's settled at the top of the midfield 3 than a Bobby

      You may prefer it but fortunately the man who picks the side doesn't and prefers Bobby as his main 9
      HScRed1
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2100: May 03, 2019 03:49:04 pm
      Didn't work that well though, god the moaning on here when he did that was constant and it gives you one  less in the middle of the park

      Could work against your Huddersfields but you'd get over run against  most good sides

      Hence why Klopp prefers a Keita now he's settled at the top of the midfield 3 than a Bobby

      You may prefer it but fortunately the man who picks the side doesn't and prefers Bobby as his main 9

      Swab will have you up for that as you don’t know for sure, you are just guessing  ;)
      Swab
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2101: May 03, 2019 05:08:33 pm
      Still more than we can dream of. Don't forget, they are better qualified with years of experience that you can only dream of, and they get to go watch the games live and have probably watched more live games than you have had hot dinners. Remember how you kept bitching at people for questioning Klopp because they didn't have the information and experience he has? Same should apply to you when you criticise these pundits, you know.

       :laugh: Listen to yourself.
      Just because that's where you get your "opinions" from, you think they are the fount of all knowledge.
      Most pundits talk utter sh*te, and only have the job because they're in the lads club.
      Take wednesday, were they even watching the same match?
      All they did was bang on about Barca, and you know why? Because they lack the intelligence to understand what they are seeing, and are not in management for the same reason.

      Quote
      Okay, sorry, Firmino can play like Fowler or Owen if asked to, he can also play like Carroll or a Drogba...  :roll:
      Different players have different qualities, and Firmino is one of the most rounded forwards you will see.

      Quote
      Also, why are you so obsessed with bringing fixed positions up? No one has mentioned it but you, and if you actually go watch other games with strikers in their team, you will see they can be fluid. You make it sound like every striker is a Benteke, seriously
      .
      You're the one who keeps banging on about a "traditional 9".
      Was that from Andy F***ing Townsend, the arch gimp who just spouts cliches?
      Because that's all you're doing, just repeating pundits because you know F**k all.

      Quote
      I swear, I seen the same sh*t about a DM and how Klopp wouldn't go for one.....
      Fabinho is not a DM, he is by turns, our deepest midfielder, a spare cb, an "8" and cover for fullback.

      Quote
      Wtf? Klopp has disrupted the normal system already. Have you not seen us play? Is it so difficult to understand or see that we have at times, played differently to how we normally have under Klopp? Perhaps I should find P.Neville's analysis for him to school you?
      Horses for courses doesn't change the basic system that has clocked up 91 points so far, got us to the CL semi, and already equalled last seasons league goals tally, with 2 games left.
      Wanting to change all that because some gobs***e pundit thinks we need "a traditional 9" is the ramblings of an empty mind, dependent on others to do your thinking for you.

      Quote
      Just fface it, some players don't have similar levels of ability. Kante and Hendo doesn't have the same as Verratti, Arthur or Pjanic, nor does Lukaku has similar abilities to Rashford etc etc. And by not having similar levels of ability and physicality, they form a different way of playing, and playing to their strengths rather than their weaknesses.

      Ask any pro athlete, and they'll tell you that the single biggest difference between  the elite is in the brain.
      Players have different physical attributes; if Messi was built like Crouch, he wouldn't be able to do half the things he does, even with his speed of thought and ability to remain calm in any situation.

      The fact is that yet again, you haven't got a F***ing clue, and have jumped on this "traditional 9" bandwagon because some pundit said it and you thought it sounded clever.

      Try to actually understand what Klopp is saying;
      Quote
      “We needed this kind of player, an offensive player who is quite good in defending as well, because we cannot ignore the quality of Barcelona obviously. But we needed a player between the lines who is good enough to keep the ball and pass the ball.

      I know for people outside it’s easy to say, ‘[You need] another striker’ or whatever. There are different jobs to do on the pitch. Gini did really well.

      “In a game like this, in a really small space, in a completely new position for him – he played it in Holland and he played offensive wing at Newcastle, so he knew about it – he is the player to do it.

      “As a football player you have to be educated in a lot of things and he has this education. So it helped, it was really good.”

      So you can take notice of the pundits who don't have the knowledge or the balls to actually go into management, or you can listen to the bloke who has got us a record points tally, more league goals than last season (in all likelihood) and is widely regarded as one of the best managers in the world, and try to understand why he does what he does.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2102: May 03, 2019 07:05:25 pm
      :laugh: Listen to yourself.
      Just because that's where you get your "opinions" from, you think they are the fount of all knowledge.
      Most pundits talk utter sh*te, and only have the job because they're in the lads club.
      Take wednesday, were they even watching the same match?
      All they did was bang on about Barca, and you know why? Because they lack the intelligence to understand what they are seeing, and are not in management for the same reason.

      Pundits do talk utter sh*t, but sometimes sense, just like managers , fans ( Klopp, Rafa, Rodgers etc) and players. But when you give people sh*t for questioning Klopp because they don't have the same info and experience, maybe you should shut the f**k up and stop critising pundits(or anything where you hold less info/experience) because you don't have the same info and experience, right?

      Different players have different qualities, and Firmino is one of the most rounded forwards you will see.

      My point was that you think every player at the highest level has similar ability, therefore, Firmino the most rounded forwards can play as a poacher if needs be according to you.

      Fabinho is not a DM, he is by turns, our deepest midfielder, a spare cb, an "8" and cover for fullback.

      Fabinho is a DM and playing more or less a DM role for us, just like Hendo did in which you said he has been playing the DM role when people called him out for his lack of support to our attacking players, so what has changed for you not to think Fabinho is playing a DM role? Or do you simply not see him as a DM player, but more a utility player? If so, being 5th choice CB and 4th(?) choice RB doesn't neglect the fact that he is best played in the 6 role as a DM which is considered his speciality... by pretty much everyone except you.

      Horses for courses doesn't change the basic system that has clocked up 91 points so far, got us to the CL semi, and already equalled last seasons league goals tally, with 2 games left.
      Wanting to change all that because some gobs***e pundit thinks we need "a traditional 9" is the ramblings of an empty mind, dependent on others to do your thinking for you.

      Seriously, which gobs***e pundit is saying this? Please link me because I haven't seen any saying we should go for a 9. The irony of it all, It is you who is wasting your time watching these pundits you hate so much.

      Ask any pro athlete, and they'll tell you that the single biggest difference between  the elite is in the brain.
      Players have different physical attributes; if Messi was built like Crouch, he wouldn't be able to do half the things he does, even with his speed of thought and ability to remain calm in any situation.

      I am not talking about the brain, and Balotelli is a fine example, but I don't know wtf you even bring that up? You just can't seem to accept that players have different levels of ability, some similar , some not. Look at your Kante and Masch, similar size to your Pjanic, Verratti and Arthur, all with that elite brain, yet they don't play like them. Maybe ask yourself why? Or do you think they can if asked to? ;)

      Try to actually understand what Klopp is saying;

      Quote from: Klopp
      “We needed this kind of player, an offensive player who is quite good in defending as well, because we cannot ignore the quality of Barcelona obviously. But we needed a player between the lines who is good enough to keep the ball and pass the ball.

      “I know for people outside it’s easy to say, ‘[You need] another striker’ or whatever. There are different jobs to do on the pitch. Gini did really well.

      “In a game like this, in a really small space, in a completely new position for him – he played it in Holland and he played offensive wing at Newcastle, so he knew about it – he is the player to do it.

      “As a football player you have to be educated in a lot of things and he has this education. So it helped, it was really good.”

      I understand what he is saying about the Barca match, and I was for Wijnaldum as the false 9 vs Barca. We created enough chances to win the game, my wanting a striker has nothing to do with the tactics we started with, but when you are behind, when you are  looking to score a goal, when Firmino isn't working as the false 9, this is where your alternative can come in and bring in something different, a player more clinical in and around the box. And I bet my life, if Klopp had Aguero or a peak Sturridge, he'd be playing one of them instead of Wijnaldum.

      Klopp has used Salah as the 9, he has used a 9 at Dortmund. Klopp has shown it can work.. FACT.
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2103: May 03, 2019 10:51:39 pm
      A lot of muddying the waters going on. We dont need a 9, but if we had one that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

      Preferably we would look at bringing in a player who like the current front 3 can play to a high standard anywhere along that front line.

      But at this stage it would be nice if we could turn to somebody who is a level above the backup we have now.

      I wouldn't advocate blowing the whole budget on that position but I trust in Klopp and his team to find that player who will allow us rest and rotate the front 3 more and then also be able to play 4 or 5 in a row if injury occurs for less than 40 million.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2104: May 04, 2019 07:34:36 am
      A lot of muddying the waters going on. We dont need a 9, but if we had one that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

      Preferably we would look at bringing in a player who like the current front 3 can play to a high standard anywhere along that front line.

      But at this stage it would be nice if we could turn to somebody who is a level above the backup we have now.

      I wouldn't advocate blowing the whole budget on that position but I trust in Klopp and his team to find that player who will allow us rest and rotate the front 3 more and then also be able to play 4 or 5 in a row if injury occurs for less than 40 million.

      Been thinking the same for a couple of years mate. Never understood why we didn’t buy Aubsmeyang 18 months ago because he would have been perfect. We deffo need a player who can plug into either of those front three positions. Also I think they are very high in Brewster so fingers crossed he can stay fit.
      skolRED
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2105: May 04, 2019 07:58:53 am
      Yeah let's have everyone in the team score 15-20 a season

      Our team is built to get the best out of Mo and Sadio..
      Bobby, the midfield and the full backs are integral in that.. the midfield don't really break beyond the front three to get the numbers that say a Stevie or Lamaprd got in their hay day, they narrow the pitch to allow the full backs space

      If they decide to blam shots from all sorts of angles then  you'd likely find us easily countered on with our full backs so high and the retention on the ball gone

      Bobbys numbers are good to say he's mainly a creative pivot for the rest of the side and a first line of the press.. he's got 43 goals all comps over the last two season which is pretty much one in two

      The essence here is if we brought in a "traditional" number 9 he wouldn't likely be the first line of the press as effectively as Bobby is and because those type are (rightfully so on the right system) selfish would the increase on Bobbys 21.5 a season to maybe 30 a season take away from Mo  and Sadios numbers? (Sadio more this year than last because if you look at Sadio and Bobby over the last two years there's like one goal between them)

      I personally think dropping a "proper number 9" into this side would change the dynamics of it too much and not in a positive way

      Personally I'd prefer we have more better options of the types we have now than have a different option
      We'd be far better off having rotation that suited our current style than a different style
      Agree with most of your post mate just some parts I think different.

      the midfield don't really break beyond the front three to get the numbers
      IMO this part is not Klopp's specific plan but more like his midfielders of Milner/Wijnaldum/Henderson not capable to do it well enough. So he bring in AOC and Keita to doing so.
      Scotia
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2106: May 04, 2019 09:13:19 am
      A lot of muddying the waters going on. We dont need a 9, but if we had one that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

      Preferably we would look at bringing in a player who like the current front 3 can play to a high standard anywhere along that front line.

      But at this stage it would be nice if we could turn to somebody who is a level above the backup we have now.

      I wouldn't advocate blowing the whole budget on that position but I trust in Klopp and his team to find that player who will allow us rest and rotate the front 3 more and then also be able to play 4 or 5 in a row if injury occurs for less than 40 million.

      There’s no doubt the debate does get distorted.

      I tend to react to the idea that a more prolific no.9 than Bobby would be a net gain. He offers us so much more than just his goals.

      Another versatile forward - ideally one who can play centrally - I’m all for.

      Kopite78
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2107: May 04, 2019 09:26:23 am
      There’s no doubt the debate does get distorted.

      I tend to react to the idea that a more prolific no.9 than Bobby would be a net gain. He offers us so much more than just his goals.

      Another versatile forward - ideally one who can play centrally - I’m all for.

      He's got 43 all comps last two seasons

      We aren't talking Diouf numbers here like some would like you to think

      Let alone as you rightly say everything else he brings to the team which is invaluable
      Scotia
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2108: May 04, 2019 09:35:11 am
      He's got 43 all comps last two seasons

      We aren't talking Diouf numbers here like some would like you to think

      Let alone as you rightly say everything else he brings to the team which is invaluable

      Amen bro
      heimdall
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2109: May 04, 2019 10:58:42 am
      Yeah let's have everyone in the team score 15-20 a season

      Our team is built to get the best out of Mo and Sadio..
      Bobby, the midfield and the full backs are integral in that.. the midfield don't really break beyond the front three to get the numbers that say a Stevie or Lamaprd got in their hay day, they narrow the pitch to allow the full backs space

      If they decide to blam shots from all sorts of angles then  you'd likely find us easily countered on with our full backs so high and the retention on the ball gone

      Bobbys numbers are good to say he's mainly a creative pivot for the rest of the side and a first line of the press.. he's got 43 goals all comps over the last two season which is pretty much one in two

      The essence here is if we brought in a "traditional" number 9 he wouldn't likely be the first line of the press as effectively as Bobby is and because those type are (rightfully so on the right system) selfish would the increase on Bobbys 21.5 a season to maybe 30 a season take away from Mo  and Sadios numbers? (Sadio more this year than last because if you look at Sadio and Bobby over the last two years there's like one goal between them)

      I personally think dropping a "proper number 9" into this side would change the dynamics of it too much and not in a positive way

      Personally I'd prefer we have more better options of the types we have now than have a different option
      We'd be far better off having rotation that suited our current style than a different style

      I think you are right in your analysis and role for Bobby which slightly contradicts your statement that all three interchange all match, they don't, Bobby is the link player setting up Sadio and Mo. I would though like to see more goals from midfield, we need to develop that aspect of our game as it will mean opposition teams will find it virtually impossible to stop us from scoring, even more than they currently do.
      Swab
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2110: May 04, 2019 12:07:52 pm
      Pundits do talk utter sh*t, but sometimes sense, just like managers , fans ( Klopp, Rafa, Rodgers etc) and players. But when you give people sh*t for questioning Klopp because they don't have the same info and experience, maybe you should shut the f**k up and stop critising pundits(or anything where you hold less info/experience) because you don't have the same info and experience, right? 
      When pundits stop talking in cliches and make some sense I might give them some credit.
      Example; when a pundit says "a traditional 9" what they mean is big bloke to hoof it up to, and players picking up the scraps.
      This, they invariably describe as "The English way" as though aimlessly hoofing it for a big bloke to try and knock down is the height of sophistication.
      Pundits have access to no more information than anyone else.
      Why the F**k should anyone be given credit for spouting cliche'd bollocks, and not understanding a system or team.
      F***ing hell, it took MOTD pundits 3 years to work out that Klopp uses the fullbacks as a main attacking outlet.
      And you want me to respect the dozy cu*ts and give them credit? HA!  :lmao:

      I understand this might be difficult for you, but try watching with the sound off, use your eyes, and you might actually learn something.

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      My point was that you think every player at the highest level has similar ability, therefore, Firmino the most rounded forwards can play as a poacher if needs be according to you.
      Firmino can play as a poacher.
      We've seen him score what pundits would stupidly describe as "poachers goals" a number of times.
      But the bottom line here is that "poacher" is yet another meaningless cliche, because the pundits who say it are lazy cu*ts caught in the past with no real understanding of a game that has left them behind.

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      Fabinho is a DM and playing more or less a DM role for us, just like Hendo did in which you said he has been playing the DM role when people called him out for his lack of support to our attacking players, so what has changed for you not to think Fabinho is playing a DM role? Or do you simply not see him as a DM player, but more a utility player? If so, being 5th choice CB and 4th(?) choice RB doesn't neglect the fact that he is best played in the 6 role as a DM which is considered his speciality... by pretty much everyone except you.
      And yet gain you completely ignore Klopp's systems.
      He doesn't play a "traditional 6" any more than he plays a "traditional 9".
      I know it's difficult for you to understand without some talking head walking you through it, but again, try, for once in your life, to think for yourself.

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      Seriously, which gobs***e pundit is saying this? Please link me because I haven't seen any saying we should go for a 9. The irony of it all, It is you who is wasting your time watching these pundits you hate so much.
      Heard it on MOTD, live matches, in the media, all spouted by ex players who are also English.
      It's bollocks, there is no "traditional English way of playing" unless they mean getting beaten by teams who actually play football.

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      I am not talking about the brain, and Balotelli is a fine example, but I don't know wtf you even bring that up? You just can't seem to accept that players have different levels of ability, some similar , some not. Look at your Kante and Masch, similar size to your Pjanic, Verratti and Arthur, all with that elite brain, yet they don't play like them. Maybe ask yourself why? Or do you think they can if asked to? ;)
      It's no surprise that you cannot understand the importance of what's between the ears in football.
      I've seen so many players who are hugely talented but fail because they re not quick enough in thought.
      Messi isn't light years ahead in terms of pure ability, he is light years ahead in what he see's, how quickly he reacts to it, and how quickly he exploits it.
      It's exactly the same with all great players. They see things a step ahead of everyone else.
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      I understand what he is saying about the Barca match, and I was for Wijnaldum as the false 9 vs Barca. We created enough chances to win the game, my wanting a striker has nothing to do with the tactics we started with, but when you are behind, when you are  looking to score a goal, when Firmino isn't working as the false 9, this is where your alternative can come in and bring in something different, a player more clinical in and around the box. And I bet my life, if Klopp had Aguero or a peak Sturridge, he'd be playing one of them instead of Wijnaldum.
      You wanting a "traditional 9" has to do with some random gobs***e pundit saying it.
      It's nothing to do with what you think, it's just bullshit repeated, hence why you get so angry when anyone criticises pundits.
      Turn the sound off, wtch the mtch, and maybe you'll actually see and learn something that hasn't been spoon fed to you by some ropey ex-player.

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      Klopp has used Salah as the 9, he has used a 9 at Dortmund. Klopp has shown it can work.. FACT.

      And now you've turned all the way into Alan Partridge.  :lmao:
      Shouting "FACT" doesn't make something a fact, it makes you look like an idiot.
      All our forwards have played in the "9" position as you call it, but you completely miss the point that they rotate in and out of that position.
      I'll wait until a pundit spots it in 3 years time, then you'll repeat it. But still not understand it.
      Swab
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2111: May 04, 2019 12:10:20 pm
      There’s no doubt the debate does get distorted.

      I tend to react to the idea that a more prolific no.9 than Bobby would be a net gain. He offers us so much more than just his goals.

      Another versatile forward - ideally one who can play centrally - I’m all for.

      Versatile, on the same level as our current 3, and able to play across the line.
      In other words, backup and a bit more depth.
      Surely any one of us would welcome that.

      But a "traditional 9"?
      In the English sense of a big bloke knocking it down?
      Nope.
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2112: May 04, 2019 12:31:42 pm
      Versatile, on the same level as our current 3, and able to play across the line.
      In other words, backup and a bit more depth.
      Surely any one of us would welcome that.

      But a "traditional 9"?
      In the English sense of a big bloke knocking it down?
      Nope.

      We certainly don't need a 9 like that. Reports are that next season will be Brewsters breakthrough season and if hes ready and Klopp trusts him then that's fine.

      If he would rather put Wijnaldum up front than Rhian when push comes to shove though then that's still an issue for me.
      « Last Edit: May 04, 2019 12:52:40 pm by fields of anny rd »
      Swab
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2113: May 04, 2019 02:09:18 pm
      We certainly don't need a 9 like that. Reports are that next season will be Brewsters breakthrough season and if hes ready and Klopp trusts him then that's fine.

      If he would rather put Wijnaldum up front than Rhian when push comes to shove though then that's still an issue for me.

      Wijnaldum up front?

      I've heard people describe him as a "false 9" against Barca, but I don't think that was the case.
      If I was forced to apply a label, I'd say "defensive 10", and I think he played the role pretty well.
      I'd say his defensive work was the reason we kept Barca pressed back/in for long periods.

      I'm looking forwards to seeing how Brewster comes through.
      He looks the part, but that final step is the hardest.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2114: May 04, 2019 02:32:53 pm
      When pundits stop talking in cliches and make some sense I might give them some credit.
      Example; when a pundit says "a traditional 9" what they mean is big bloke to hoof it up to, and players picking up the scraps.
      This, they invariably describe as "The English way" as though aimlessly hoofing it for a big bloke to try and knock down is the height of sophistication.
      Pundits have access to no more information than anyone else.
      Why the f**k should anyone be given credit for spouting cliche'd bollocks, and not understanding a system or team.
      F***ing hell, it took MOTD pundits 3 years to work out that Klopp uses the fullbacks as a main attacking outlet.
      And you want me to respect the dozy cu*ts and give them credit? HA! 

      I understand this might be difficult for you, but try watching with the sound off, use your eyes, and you might actually learn something.

      Seriously. You basically said it in your own words, how can you criticise anything when you don't have the same level of information and experience. Maybe, as you have said, try to understand why they are saying the things they said because you don't have the same information and experience as them, right? ;)

      Firmino can play as a poacher.
      We've seen him score what pundits would stupidly describe as "poachers goals" a number of times.
      But the bottom line here is that "poacher" is yet another meaningless cliche, because the pundits who say it are lazy cu*ts caught in the past with no real understanding of a game that has left them behind.

      I have seen Fabinho, Hendo and even Wijnaldum play hollywood balls, doesn't mean they can play as a DLPM like your Alonso or Gerrard.

      Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe if we are in desperate need of a goal, the better option would be to bring on a more clinical striker, a poacher or a Suarez, Cavani, D.Costa, Lewandowski type instead of moving Firmino into that role?

      And I don't see the problem in using the term, poacher for players like, Inzaghi, Fowler , Hernandez etc, just like I have np with target man/traditional 9 etc being used to describe players like Benteke or Carroll etc.

      And yet gain you completely ignore Klopp's systems.
      He doesn't play a "traditional 6" any more than he plays a "traditional 9".
      I know it's difficult for you to understand without some talking head walking you through it, but again, try, for once in your life, to think for yourself.

      Who is talking about Fabinho playing as a traditional 6? What is a traditional 6? Someone that sits in front of the defence 99% of the time? You called Hendo a DM without any explanation of how Klopp likes his DM, yet when I call Fabinho a DM, you oddly try to twist things to suit your weird agenda and try to put it out there I am talking about him sitting in front of the CB's 24/7. When I put the DM tag on Fabinho or Hendo, it is under the assumption people know I am talking about a DM under Klopp rather than being a traditional DM role.

      It's no surprise that you cannot understand the importance of what's between the ears in football.
      I've seen so many players who are hugely talented but fail because they re not quick enough in thought.
      Messi isn't light years ahead in terms of pure ability, he is light years ahead in what he see's, how quickly he reacts to it, and how quickly he exploits it.
      It's exactly the same with all great players. They see things a step ahead of everyone else.

      But you still haven't answered my question, what sets Kante apart from the likes of Verratti, Pjanic, Xavi or Arthur? Why can't Kante play like them? Maybe, just maybe they have different levels of technical ability? Just face it, some players are similar in ability, some are not and miles off.

      You wanting a "traditional 9" has to do with some random gobs***e pundit saying it.
      It's nothing to do with what you think, it's just bullshit repeated, hence why you get so angry when anyone criticises pundits.
      Turn the sound off, wtch the mtch, and maybe you'll actually see and learn something that hasn't been spoon fed to you by some ropey ex-player.

      But a "traditional 9"?
      In the English sense of a big bloke knocking it down?

      Quote me where I say I want a traditional 9, please? I said it a few times a while back where I wanted a striker like a Cavani, Suarez, Lewandowski or D.Costa, but I wouldn't be against a poacher like Alcacer.

      And no, Swab, you fail to understand I don't care if someone calls pundits out for being stupid or clueless, I actually agree with them when they do post on the pundits thread. What I do is, I call you out for your hypocrisy, idiocy and arrogance after you attack people for criticising Klopp and not having the same information and experience, and that information and experience the pundits have you do not have ;)

      And now you've turned all the way into Alan Partridge. 
      Shouting "FACT" doesn't make something a fact, it makes you look like an idiot.
      All our forwards have played in the "9" position as you call it, but you completely miss the point that they rotate in and out of that position.
      I'll wait until a pundit spots it in 3 years time, then you'll repeat it. But still not understand it.

      No one is denying how fluid we are up front, but what you can't understand is, a striker up top can be fluid too, a striker can occupy wide areas and make runs as good as, if not better than Firmino.
      And what you refuse to accept is, having a alternative as the 9 can work. Maybe we will be lesser in the counter pressing department, but we have also shown we are capable of the patient game without that aggressive counter pressing approach.

      Fair enough if you want a lesser version of Firmino over a natural 9,  but to say an alternative wouldn't work and to suggest we would fall apart or a complete system change to how we have played this season is ludicrous. Like I said before, Klopp has shown it can work without us playing Firmino as the false 9.

      Oh, and Swab, I think Firmino is world class and first name on the team sheet, saves you from calling me a hater or wanting Firmino to be replaced.
      « Last Edit: May 04, 2019 02:50:01 pm by PurpleMonkey »
      Swab
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      • 13,361 posts | 3462 
      Re: Roberto Firmino Player Thread
      Reply #2115: May 04, 2019 03:01:19 pm
      Seriously. You basically said it in your own words, how can you criticise anything when you don't have the same level of information and experience. Maybe, as you have said, try to understand why they are saying the things they said because you don't have the same information and experience as them, right? ;) 
      You seem to be having trouble processing information.
      I said Klopp has all the information (which he does)
      None of these thick as sh*t pundits have that information.
      They have monitors, same as I do, y'know TV screens where you watch? That's what they have, so F**k off with this lame sh*t about how they have "all the information".
      They don't.
      And experience is only any good if you have the intelligence to use it to properly analyse what's in front of you.
      Again, most pundits don't.

      Try thinking for yourself instead of relying on what some thick as sh*t, jobs for the boys bullshit artist tells you


      Quote
      I have seen Fabinho, Hendo and even Wijnaldum play hollywood balls, doesn't mean they can play as a DLPM like your Alonso or Gerrard.
      Where's the yawn emoji

      Quote
      Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe if we are in desperate need of a goal, the better option would be to bring on a more clinical striker, a poacher or a Suarez, Cavani, D.Costa, Lewandowski type instead of moving Firmino into that role?
      Yes, we should take away attacking threat from the side in favour of doing what the thick as sh*t pundits say.
      Got it.

      Quote
      And I don't see the problem in using the term, poacher for players like, Inzaghi, Fowler , Hernandez etc, just like I have np with target man/traditional 9 etc being used to describe players like Benteke or Carroll etc.
      No, you wouldn't see the problem, because you can't think for yourself ad have to rely on thick as sh*t pundits to do your thinking for you.

      Quote
      Who is talking about Fabinho playing as a traditional 6? What is a traditional 6? Someone that sits in front of the defence 99% of the time? You called Hendo a DM without any explanation of how Klopp likes his DM, yet when I call Fabinho a DM, you oddly try to twist things to suit your weird agenda and try to put it out there I am talking about him sitting in front of the CB's 24/7. When I put the DM tag on Fabinho or Hendo, it is under the assumption people know I am talking about a DM under Klopp rather than being a traditional DM role.
      You were talking about it, and more to the point, you won't stop banging on about "I said it all along" when we don't (and never have) played a "traditional 6" or "DM" under Klopp.
      Again, you lack the intelligence to understand the subtle differences between roles.
      This is what happens when you rely on thick as sh*t pundits to d your thinking for you.

      Quote
      But you still haven't answered my question, what sets Kante apart from the likes of Verratti, Pjanic, Xavi or Arthur? Why can't Kante play like them? Maybe, just maybe they have different levels of technical ability? Just face it, some players are similar in ability, some are not and miles off.

      Again, you have herd the term "technical ability" thrown out by some thick as sh*t pundit and now keep using it like you know what it means.
      You clearly don't


      Quote
      And no, Swab, you fail to understand I don't care if someone calls pundits out for being stupid or clueless, I actually agree with them when they do post on the pundits thread. What I do is, I call you out for your hypocrisy, idiocy and arrogance after you attack people for criticising Klopp and not having the same information and experience, and that information and experience the pundits have you do not have ;)
      No hypocrisy here.
      Just because you lack the intelligence to understand that a pundit does not have the same information that Klopp has, does not indicate hypocrisy.
      It indicates the fact that you equate thick as sh*t pundits with top managers who have masses of information that pundits don't.
      It's hard to believe that some could be thicker than Phil Neville, but damn if you aren't giving it a go.

      Quote
      No one is denying how fluid we are up front, but what you can't understand is, a striker up top can be fluid too, a striker can occupy wide areas and make runs as good as, if not better than Firmino.
      And what you refuse to accept is, having a alternative as the 9 can work. Maybe we will be lesser in the counter pressing department, but we have also shown we are capable of the patient approach without that aggressive counter pressing approach.
      Nope, you stated "a traditional 9" (and now trying to change it to a "natural 9", whatever that means) and in the context of getting it from a thick as sh*t pundit from Engerlund, that means a big bloke up top.
      They bang on about it constantly, and it's as ridiculous when you say it as it is when they say it.
      VVD started off as a striker, was he  "natural 9" or a "traditional 9" or just "not a 9".
      Stop throwing out bullshit jargon that you think sounds clever (it isn't)

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      Fair enough if you want a lesser version of Firmino over a natural 9,  but to say an alternative wouldn't work and to suggest we would fall apart or a complete system change to how we have played this season is ludicrous. Like I said before, Klopp has shown it can work without us playing Firmino as the false 9.
      So, here you are saying that no other forward in world football can be taught/coached to play the role Firmino plays.
      This crap of yours just gets more stupid with every post.
      I don't think there's a player who can come straight in and do the same job to the same standard immediately (as I said before) but there are players who can be taught.
      Get a F***ing grip, "a natural 9" is just more bullshit pundit speak, but then that's your shtick isn't it.

      Quote
      Oh, and Swab, I think Firmino is world class and first name on the team sheet, saves you from calling me a hater or wanting Firmino to be replaced.
      What a strange little man you are.
      You want a "traditional 9" or now you've changed it, "a natural 9" and want to change a brilliant system because some random thick as sh*t pundit says we should and you thought it was clever to repeat it.
      It it's not broke, don't fix it.
      84 league goals, with 2 to play.
      91 points, with 2 to play.
      16 goals, 7 assists for Firmino but you want to put Giroud in there.
       :lmao:

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