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      Academy Expectations

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      reddebs
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #46: Aug 26, 2015 06:28:51 pm
      I've seperated this debate as I believe it's one worth having and would like to continue with it.  Apologies that it's in the wrong Board but it'll get moved into the Kop when I suss out the techy bit on how to move it  ;D

      If it's ok with you guys we can use it to discuss all things about the Academy but still use the Reserves and Youth threads when we're discussing those games and use the Players Threads for anything related to the individual, if they have one.

      reddebs
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #47: Aug 26, 2015 06:48:13 pm
      Posted this earlier in the Youth Team thread but it's valid in here too.

      I know a few don't believe we are doing enough at Academy level to bring through talent for the 1st team and sometimes what goes on at the Academy is a bit of a mystery.  Most Youth Coaches are generally unknown until they start moving through the ranks and age groups but it's fantastic to know that since Brendan arrived, not only has the Academy been overhauled in how we prepare our young players for life as a pro but he's amassing some of the very best Youth Coaches throughout the age groups.

      For those who like to know who we have working with our youngsters, this is worth a read.


      Tim Lees: Coaching possession, youth development and the future

      Tim came through the academy system in England with both Bolton Wanderers and Everton as a youngster. He has over 300 appearances semi-professionally in England and in 2007 earned the highest scholarship awarded to an athlete at Maryland, USA. In 2006, he was chosen to represent the UK from 17,000 players for The Pepsi Max World Challenge, a global TV Series screened on Channel 4. Tim competed against the best semi-professional players from ten other countries in  2V2 tournament around the globe; working with Ronaldinho, David Beckham and Thierry Henry. In 2006, he was chosen by Jamie Redknapp to represent England semi-professional team at the FIFA World Cup finals in Germany.
       
      He is also a football skills champion, finishing second in the World 2004 Nike Freestyle Championships and has performed choreographed and body doubled on dozens of commercials and advertisements around the world for the past ten years.
       
      Tim was selected by Pepsi as a Technical Coach alongside David Beckham in Madrid and Ronaldinho in Camp Nou before being recruited by the Watford FC academy where he worked full time with 12-16s at the pioneering Harefield Project. This system saw over 50 players progress from the academy into the Championship first team squad. He was Youth Development Manager of 12-16s at Wigan Athletic, overseeing the coaching programme and philosophy at all age groups before managing the 13-14s philosophy at Liverpool’s academy. Tim was also seconded to coach in Spain by Roberto Martinez in the summer of 2013, holds a BSc Hons Degree in Sport Psychology, a UEFA A Licence and has been a guest speaker at several youth national coaching events.
       
      What made you get into coaching?
       
      “I first got into coaching when I was released from the professional academies and realised I was not going to reach the heights that I had dreamt of as a player. I was a skinny and small, technical deep-lying midfielder with no pace that kept dropping in to receive from centre backs – all they were being asked to do was hit the front players early. The philosophy in academies is very different now than it was in the 90s; the game has moved on so much and I was a very late developer. When I left school I was forced to take a session as part of my college course. I loved it. This is where I first started – and the session I put on was terrible.
       
      “The reason I started was born from my own experiences. I had played under so many coaches and managers who had polar opposite beliefs to me and operated in ways that I felt was completely unacceptable. They would lie continually, were lazy in terms of preparation and applied no thought or creativity to their sessions. We went for three mile runs around the streets, we wouldn’t see the balls for 60 of the 90 minute sessions and we played conditioned games with absolutely no relevance to the game at all.
       
      “I remember at Bolton, being put into a sprint race over 60 yards against the under-15 players and I was chronologically barely 13 with the biological age of 11. When I look back to some of the things I was asked to do I wonder how some of the coaches were even employed. Some people still use these methods and term them ‘making boys into men’ and all that alpha male rubbish that ‘did them no harm’, but what they don’t ask is how much better they could have been if they hadn’t wasted time on things that had no relevance.”
       
      Fans and the media are becoming more privy to buzzwords for coaches such as ‘ideology’ and ‘philosophy’, can you explain what your philosophy as a coach is?
       
      “Philosophy is a really difficult word to get across on a piece of paper or in an interview. My core philosophical values are to treat people with respect and to always be honest with others. In football, the higher you go the more bad people you find. Some of the dishonesty I have seen it truly staggering and due to this I am always open with my feelings with others around me.  I never want people to be unsure on what I am thinking whether that be good or bad. When people know you will tell them the truth 100% of the time then you have an environment where people are working towards a goal together. Trust is the most important principle to any philosophy yet it in football it is something that seems to be devoid in most clubs.
       
      “My on field philosophy never changes but constantly evolves. If I was still coaching the same things that I was two years ago then I would not only be naive but also not adjusting to the demands of the modern game. Brendan Rodgers spoke about how the speed of the Premier league changes with each pre-season thus everyone has to evolve. If I don’t evolve and improve as a coach on a weekly basis then I will never reach the levels that I want to. I am not good enough to coach a Premier League first team now therefore I need to know the steps to get me there.
       
      “The core principles I believe in never waver in any circumstances, regardless how extreme or difficult the situation may seem. If you don’t stand for something then you’ll fall for nothing. It’s an easy principle to have as a core value yet one that many abandon when the chips are down. Roberto [Martínez] once said to me ‘never move from your principles, many people will come along who don’t believe in it but you cannot be influenced – if it was easy then everyone would be doing it’.
       
      “In a short sentence, I believe in dominating possession of the football to be in control of what happens. When asked about my philosophy I could detail principles like how many receiving lines I like to use, the number of vertical columns I like to play on, about how to create specific overloads in certain areas of the pitch or how to change the amount of pressure behind 1v1’s in a game from 81% to 30-40% so you are facing the goal in space but it is all irrelevant without the player profiles in front of you. The reality is that you see things in individuals that they need which may give them short term failure but you know long term it’s best for them. You identify things in games which tactically need your input for the benefit of both the team and the individual but it’s extremely hard to document these principles without having two teams on a pitch in front of you. Instead, I will explain from, start to finish,  what I would like from any team that I coach and hopefully this will provide a more relevant answer to your question. I want my team to have the ball for several reasons:

       •Most importantly from a youth perspective, the returns technically are paramount. The obvious passing repetition and myelin built cognitively from a high frequency, repetitive process is imperative. Players receive with pressure behind 80% of the four 1v1 situations so the more times we create this, the more opportunities the players get to dominate players. Champions League players have over 2700 receiving situations per season therefore we need to get as close to this as possible. To get these technical returns, we need the ball.

       •From a tactical point of view, if we want to dominate the ball then we have to have control of the opposition in terms of their block and their defensive movements. If they show us into specific areas setting traps and working off pressing triggers then we are playing into their strengths. We have to dictate to them what is happening in the match, not the other way around. To hurt teams we need 1v1 situations higher up the pitch where we can outplay opponents but we also need the spaces. Thus, to control the spaces we need to get the opposition’s players in areas on the pitch where we want them; we need the ball most of the time.  To have the ball more than the opposition would mean that statistically, in black and white terms, we need to have the ball 51% of the game. However, this is not enough so I aim for my teams to have the ball for a minimum of 65% possession (average of Barcelona and Bayern last season). This is reflected in every possession practice and training session. So, for the above reasons, the first objective target is to have the ball 65% of the time. Although it is not the sole objective, the possession percentage is not just a meaningless statistic, it has specific returns at 65%.

       •If we have 65% of the ball then I do not want a large proportion of this to be in our own half. You see this where teams dominate possession but never hurt the opposition. To get our best attacking players on the ball in areas where they can hurt the opposition, they need to be receiving in the block and not in front of it. When teams focus too much on playing from the back then game-changing players begin to drop deeper to get on the ball as the game progresses. There is nothing more frustrating than seeing players like Hazard, Sánchez or Coutinho dropping in front of the midfield block and looking up at two lines ahead.

       •The players who change the game need to be receiving within 35m of the opposition’s goal and ideally in the spaces in between the lines. To do this, we need the opposition closer to their goal and in a low block. Therefore the idea of playing out from the back should be to progress the opposition’s block up the pitch where they are sitting in front of their own goal as opposed to allowing them to press us 25m from our goal. Playing out from the back is imperative to getting the opposition just in front of their goal, however it is not only naive but dangerous to solely focus on this philosophy. There are specific movements, rotations and actions required to progress a philosophy from playing from the back to getting the opposition defending in their own half. The difference is huge.

       •Once we have got the opposition defending deep, we will automatically now have a lot of the ball and most of the time will achieve the 65% domination. If the opposition are in a low block sitting in front of their own goal then this is physically and mentally very demanding to do for long periods. It saps their energy, it drains their concentration and they give up on trying to even have the ball because they are so far from our goal when they regain. If we are in this position then they are 80-90m from our goal. If we focus on playing from the back and bouncing midfielders for long periods then not only are we more open to counters but we are now 25m from our goal.
       
      •Once we can get the opposition to a point where their striker is detached from the midfield and defensive line then their only option on the turnover is to go long to a sole player. At this point several things are vital in order to retain the philosophy. On the turnover of possession, the five second press is imperative to keep them deep. Players must close the net quickly and get pressure on the ball, centre-backs must engage and double up on their striker and not allow the opposition to get comfortable possession. Again, there are specific movements and actions required depending on the system employed.

       •Once we regain possession, we need to quickly shift it out of the pressure zone and to a spare player. Guardiola works off a simple principle which was influenced by Cruyff; the player who has pressed the ball has focused all his energy on regaining the ball therefore he has the worst ‘map’ of the pitch. He has no idea on our positional slots or shape therefore his only focus should be to offload the ball as fast as possible to anybody. The second pass out of the press should be focused on shifting the ball out of the pressure zone and to find the space on the pitch. Whilst these two passes are happening, on the third pass our shape should now be one with width and depth again. The cycle now begins again where we circulate the ball, show patience in possession and keep the opposition in front of their goal.
       
      “This is my philosophy as a simple structure. The actual system has to be built around the players that are in the squad. The system has two functions – to bring out the best in the best players whilst being setup to give them the best chance of achieving the above philosophy.”
       
      Did any teams or coaches influence your philosophy?
       
      “From the age of eight I was brought up watching a philosophy that was different to the one I was part of in this country. My dad bought me old video tapes of Brazil in the 70s and Barcelona with Cruyff pulling the strings. In Euro 96 when all my friends were cheering England, my dad sat me down watching Hierro playing from the back for Spain so this culture was built into me from very young. From a philosophy point of view, my main influences are obvious.
       
      “Roberto inspired me so much at Wigan and I was fortunate enough to manage his camp in Catalonia for him. From an educational point of view, I developed lots working with Alex Inglethorpe, Pep Lljinders, and Mick Beale at Liverpool. My first job in coaching was given to me by Nick Cox at Watford – he took a chance on me when no one else would and he provided me with a great foundation. I am hugely influenced by Bielsa particularly with his intensity, attention to detail and the tactical flexibility that he constantly possesses. And lastly, Guardiola’s effective reinvention of the game is my biggest influence.”
       
      Does your philosophy influence the type of player you look to recruit?
       
      “Hugely. If I was recruiting from a first team point of view then I would recruit specific profiles that I need to achieve the above philosophy, not to suit a specific system. I know that for the philosophy to work I need very specific profiles – these would be completely different if I wanted my team to drop to a low block and counter. Recruitment of players is more important than any coaching session, idea or principle. And it’s not as simple as buying a game changer to hurt teams 1v1 in the block or finding a passer to sit in front of the back four and pull the strings.
       
      “For example, I know that if I want to dominate the ball for 65% of the time then I need a centre-back who can stop turns on the transition and defend 1v1 – in order to keep the opposition in their half. I don’t necessarily need a centre back with pace or mobility if he can see danger early and prevents strikers turning on the transition. But then, he needs someone next to him who can defend the spaces in behind should we not press the ball quick enough.
       
      “The recruitment of first team players for a specific function is different to that of youth players. In academies, you are looking for one thing: long-term potential. And this looks different in every player and position. We don’t care if we lose the game this Sunday 6-0 because the first team manager will want to know if a player can technically compete at the elite level at 19. When he breaks into the first team the manager isn’t going to ask him what score he won away at Burnley six years earlier. Therefore, coaches in youth football have to sacrifice their ego and ‘status’ for the long term gain of the players – this is easier said than done.”
       
      During your time at Liverpool you would’ve worked alongside Pepijn Lijnders; as a highly regarded youth coach, what is he like to work with?
       
      “There are lots of charlatans in the professional game who are in high profile positions because of who they know but Pep is the best coach I have ever worked with. His intensity, energy and passion is unparalleled and his knowledge both tactically and how to develop players from an individual point of view is incredible. I have no doubt he will manage one day in the Premier League and I feel fortunate to have worked side-by-side with him for a prolonged period. He’s a great guy off the field too.”
       
      Do you think set pieces are under-utilised in the modern game?
       
      “It is becoming harder to score from set pieces because teams are set up so well to not concede from them. Often teams have 11 players behind the ball and sacrifice trying to counter from them for fear of conceding. Personally, I like to control the opposition so I take risks from defending set pieces leaving lots of players out for the counter. If I am defending a set piece and I leave three players high – with relevant profiles to counter and poor profiles to defend aerially – then the opposition have no option than to leave a minimum of three back. If they do this, we now have less players to focus on defensively and our goalkeeper has more space to attack and claim (he has the highest aerial reach than any player therefore needs more space).
       
      “I trust the players whose job it is to defend through a part zonal/man marking system and take out the players who would never defend properly anyway. From an attacking point of view, I think a lot of managers neglect the principles and philosophy and focus more on how to score from set pieces. I have been in team talks as a player where managers spend every minute of their pre match giving instructions on set pieces.”
       
      You’ve been fortunate enough to work with both Roberto Martínez and Brendan Rodgers. Tell us about the experience of working with two highly-rated, young Premier League managers.
       
      “I feel extremely fortunate to have worked in a managerial development capacity under both managers’ philosophies. I had to present the academy philosophy to Roberto and he was extremely specific about his ideas on how to develop players long term. The detail he goes into is forensic; people wouldn’t believe the level he goes into. Ironically, I used to travel the country to watch Swansea under Brendan and Wigan under Roberto.
       
      “I loved the way Rodgers dominated the ball against bigger teams, playing from the back constantly with a very fluid and interchangeable 4-3-3. Watching Wigan under Roberto was incredible as they were the only team in the Premier League playing a back three and dominated opponents continually staying in the Premier League when they had no right to. One of my best moments in football was being at the FA Cup final when Wigan outclassed Man City as 10-1 underdogs. When you understand the tactics Roberto used to manage that game, you realise what level he really is at.”
       
      What’s your long term goal?
       
      “My long term goal is to manage at the highest level possible. At the moment I am learning continually and have specific areas I need to develop in order to reach my goals. I underachieved as a player and am determined to not do so as a coach. This is my driving force and motivation on a daily basis. I have worked with some of the best coaches in the world and it burns me inside that I don’t have their knowledge. You only know how much you don’t know when you see the best people operate, whatever your occupation is. People may read stuff online or watch Gary Neville on Monday nights and think they could do it but they don’t understand the complexities of the very elite level.”
       
      I’ve had the pleasure of reading your book, for those that haven’t why should they buy it?
       
      “Since I started coaching at 16, I have a black box which I record every session I either saw or took part in as a player. Two years ago I sat down and pulled out all of the best ones and put them into a book which turned into Developing An Elite Coaching Philosophy In Possession. The book is for coaches who are working with good players and want some detail to use in sessions or when building their philosophy. The first section is the beginning of the theory as to why you want to create a specific philosophy with the second half being dozens of sessions to use with coaching points that I would personally highlight. The sessions that I have put in the book are ones that I have personally seen delivered by Premier League coaches. I received emails from people asking for specific ideas on sessions therefore I thought it would be good to release a book containing them.”
       
      Finally, away from football what do you do to relax? People have an impression coaches just live for football.
       
      “For years I lived for the game and would be working from 9am to 3am the next morning. At Wigan I was responsible for the whole academy therefore I was the last one to leave at 10pm. When I got home from sessions late at night, I would be editing the clips from the games/sessions to show the players what they needed. I would be downloading games that I had just seen on Sky to clip out a two second receiving clip that one of my players needed to see. I would be searching for Chile games under Bielsa or trying to find Ajax from the 90s to see if there was anything tactical that was different.
       
      “Although this working pattern is extreme, I think you have to put those hours in to get to where you want to. All of the best coaches I have worked with are exactly the same. There are no shortcuts. As Floyd Mayweather says, ‘hard work and dedication’. Nowadays I try to switch off when I come home and forget about football. I have learned to do this as it drains your passion if you are not careful and you start counting the days down until May. Away from football I manage a business which I have to look after, I love good food, spend time with friends and family and have just bought a saxophone to learn.”


      http://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/08/26/tim-lees-coaching-possession-youth-development/

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #48: Aug 26, 2015 06:56:00 pm
      Yeah mate pleanty agree with you... All that karma, right?

      But are they agreeing with the beautiful, romantic notion that it would be great to see more local lads should be coming through or the original point - "looking to the transfer market is destined to fail"?

      'Cause if they're agreeing with the original point (not the revised version) they too are talking sh*te. If on the other hand - it's the revised romantic notion then fair enough... I can see that... Although It offers only the problem without hint of a solution: it reads well and it certainly tugs at the heartstrings.

      While we're waiting for the problem to be fixed - like every successful club, we'll just have use the transfer market.

      Didn't young Gomez look good tonight btw?



      Another thing, if you seem to take issue with my stance that only looking in the transfer market isn't going to see us reach the top (and you seem to be taking it personally judging by your sneers), then tell me one club that has "just done it through the transfer market". Now that excludes the money bag clubs as they have unlimited funds to buy their way out of trouble - I still cannot believe how some are finding it difficult to distinguish between those clubs and ours.  :lmao:

      So for those clubs under the elite at the moment (your Dortmunds, Athletico Madrids), which ones have jumped the big guns by just playing the transfer market?

      Because as far as I'm aware, those clubs that jump the big guns played the transfer market AND had a prosperous youth system.

      It is narrow minded for anyone to think the answers are only in the transfer market. That's the result of the Football Manager and FIFA generation in that they have never realised the importance of academies. Nor does the modern fan have any patience regarding the academy. It's always a quick fix solution at throwing money at a problem and usually ending up wasting a lot of money as a result.

      reddebs
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #49: Aug 26, 2015 08:33:43 pm
      Although this is a good debate to be having, I'm confused as to what people are expecting from the Academy.

      There's been reference to the lack of local talent within the 1st team setup since Carra, Stevie and Owen broke through but that doesn't mean we aren't producing, they just aren't/weren't of the required quality.  If any of you can remember back to the last time we won the FA Youth Trophy in 2007 these were our squads for both legs of the final.

      1st leg.

      1    Denmark    GK    Martin Hansen
      2    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      3    England    DF    Michael Burns
      4    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      5    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      6    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      7    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted off 67'
      11    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      12    England    FW    Steven Irwin
      13    England    GK    David Roberts
      14    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      15    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      16    England    FW    Nathan Eccleston Substituted in 67'

      2nd leg.

      1    England    GK    David Roberts
      2    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      3    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      4    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      5    England    DF    Michael Burns
      6    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan Substituted off 94'
      7    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    Sweden    FW    Astrit Ajdarević Substituted off 81'
      11    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      Sub    England    GK    Josh Mimms
      Sub    England    DF    Steven Irwin Substituted in 81'
      Sub    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      Sub    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      Sub    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted in 94'

      Not many recognisable names on those team sheets, although I'm guessing most of them are still playing at some level.  Darby has done well and is Captain at Bradford, Spearing is floating around the Championship somewhere and Martin Hansen scored an amazing goal at the start of the season, even though he's a 'Keeper.

      So in 2009 Rafa overhauls the Academy, brings in two amazing Youth Coaches and more recently Brendan has brought in a whole team of new people as he was unhappy that despite the talent being there, the players were totally unprepared for life as professional players.  Our young players are now being coached from an early age not just to be technically proficient but mentally prepared for what awaits them away from the cocoon of Academy life.

      These things take time though and 6 years is not long enough to produce results, unless you get a truly prodigeous talent like Raheem coming through (yes I know he joined us at 15).

      So back to the expectations, what are you all hoping for?

      2 or 3 breaking through every season or so?  The odd squad player every couple of years?

      With regards to recruiting local talent, we do, from the ages of 4 or 5 we scour all the local schools, have open days etc, they then sign up properly at age 7 and if they're good enough they get offered a pro contract at 17. 

      But what do you refer to as "local"?  We currently don't have many "Scousers" left by the time they reach the u21s but we do have players from the surrounding areas who have been at the Academy since they were 8, 9, 10 years old. 

      With reagrds to "creating" talent, well no you can't.  You can develop it if it's there in the first place but there's so many hurdles these kids go through to even get to the contract offer stage and so much that can go wrong after they've signed it that it's almost impossible for them to succeed.

      Interested to hear your thoughts folks.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #50: Aug 26, 2015 08:50:02 pm
      Although this is a good debate to be having, I'm confused as to what people are expecting from the Academy.

      There's been reference to the lack of local talent within the 1st team setup since Carra, Stevie and Owen broke through but that doesn't mean we aren't producing, they just aren't/weren't of the required quality.  If any of you can remember back to the last time we won the FA Youth Trophy in 2007 these were our squads for both legs of the final.

      1st leg.

      1    Denmark    GK    Martin Hansen
      2    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      3    England    DF    Michael Burns
      4    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      5    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      6    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      7    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted off 67'
      11    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      12    England    FW    Steven Irwin
      13    England    GK    David Roberts
      14    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      15    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      16    England    FW    Nathan Eccleston Substituted in 67'

      2nd leg.

      1    England    GK    David Roberts
      2    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      3    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      4    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      5    England    DF    Michael Burns
      6    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan Substituted off 94'
      7    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    Sweden    FW    Astrit Ajdarević Substituted off 81'
      11    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      Sub    England    GK    Josh Mimms
      Sub    England    DF    Steven Irwin Substituted in 81'
      Sub    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      Sub    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      Sub    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted in 94'

      Not many recognisable names on those team sheets, although I'm guessing most of them are still playing at some level.  Darby has done well and is Captain at Bradford, Spearing is floating around the Championship somewhere and Martin Hansen scored an amazing goal at the start of the season, even though he's a 'Keeper.

      So in 2009 Rafa overhauls the Academy, brings in two amazing Youth Coaches and more recently Brendan has brought in a whole team of new people as he was unhappy that despite the talent being there, the players were totally unprepared for life as professional players.  Our young players are now being coached from an early age not just to be technically proficient but mentally prepared for what awaits them away from the cocoon of Academy life.

      These things take time though and 6 years is not long enough to produce results, unless you get a truly prodigeous talent like Raheem coming through (yes I know he joined us at 15).

      So back to the expectations, what are you all hoping for?

      2 or 3 breaking through every season or so?  The odd squad player every couple of years?

      With regards to recruiting local talent, we do, from the ages of 4 or 5 we scour all the local schools, have open days etc, they then sign up properly at age 7 and if they're good enough they get offered a pro contract at 17. 

      But what do you refer to as "local"?  We currently don't have many "Scousers" left by the time they reach the u21s but we do have players from the surrounding areas who have been at the Academy since they were 8, 9, 10 years old. 

      With reagrds to "creating" talent, well no you can't.  You can develop it if it's there in the first place but there's so many hurdles these kids go through to even get to the contract offer stage and so much that can go wrong after they've signed it that it's almost impossible for them to succeed.

      Interested to hear your thoughts folks.

      At the very least Debs, a lot of us are hoping for players to come and fill the squad so we have good strength and depth, rather than pumping it full of average players from the transfer market. Now of course every club is going to buy an average player now and then, but we really have been taking the biscuit with regards to the inadequate squad players bought in the last 20 odd years.

      Bang average squad players in recent years concerns the likes of Assaidi, Luis Alberto, Manquillo, Moses, Aspas, Cissokho, etc. Combine loan fees, transfer fees and wages, and that's a very expensive way to go about merely making up the numbers with no hint of use there at all.

      If we could get a healthy number of academy lads into the senior squad, it would save us the money and effort in wasting transfer funds on, well, wasters. Of all the bargain bin rubbish we've picked up over the years, imagine if we had a capable academy and that the transfer funds spent on wasters could have instead been put towards the player we really need.

      As far as I'm concerned, success at a club like Liverpool which is unable to compete financially has to emphasise the top-down measure of smart transfer acquisitions and good management, and the bottom up measure of developing capable talent for Liverpool FC. If those two measures meet in the middle, then we succeed and leapfrog financially superior clubs. Best examples are Dortmund and Athletico Madrid who pursued both top down and bottom up measures to outsmart their financially superior rivals. If we neglect one of these factors, we won't see ourselves competing consistently at the top level.

      It provides that rational avenue to success and, at the very least if it can provide local talent, provides the communitarian benefit of Liverpool FC's original purpose in providing links to the people of Liverpool and the football club (that promise is what separates us from other clubs no?). A small minded attitude would suggest that the emphasis on youth is 'mere sentimental bullshit' but those fans are at the mercy of the vast commercialism of the game and the 'quick fix' solutions that are a hindrance on the game.

      There's no patience with regards to the academy - the thing with today's modern football fan is that the run-of-the-mill fan doesn't look long term. They want it now and they want it all done quickly. Well, I'm sorry but patience is a virtue, and if we do things right at the youth coaching level and are patient with it, the academy will in future years provide the perfect sustainability by which we can to propel ourselves to greatness once again. Without any emphasis on it, we will merely be desperately treading water, deluding ourselves that a smart signing is going to help us beat Man City or Utd's £80 million record signing.
      « Last Edit: Aug 26, 2015 09:06:07 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #51: Aug 26, 2015 09:05:36 pm
      Nobody can deny that having an academy full of talent is not a great thing to have, however the primary objective for LFC is success on the pitch so if that means buying the required player - Coutinho, Suarez et al recently then that should be the priority.

      As for the importance of having scousers, imo it's not that simple and easy because Merseyside is geographically a small area compared to the rest of Europe. Look at our recent youngsters....... Raheem and Ibe both came through the academy but originally from London. Even Gomez and Clyne both cockneys but young and hungry to play for LFC.

      For me the academy is important but where those youngsters come from is secondary and even then if the talent is not as good as what one of the richest clubs in the world can buy to improve the first team, then that takes priority before academy players being given a chance.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #52: Aug 26, 2015 09:26:00 pm
      Nobody can deny that having an academy full of talent is not a great thing to have, however the primary objective for LFC is success on the pitch so if that means buying the required player - Coutinho, Suarez et al recently then that should be the priority.

      As for the importance of having scousers, imo it's not that simple and easy because Merseyside is geographically a small area compared to the rest of Europe. Look at our recent youngsters....... Raheem and Ibe both came through the academy but originally from London. Even Gomez and Clyne both cockneys but young and hungry to play for LFC.

      For me the academy is important but where those youngsters come from is secondary and even then if the talent is not as good as what one of the richest clubs in the world can buy to improve the first team, then that takes priority before academy players being given a chance.

      I don't know why you think we are arguing with signing the likes of Coutinho and Suarez. That is not the point. But if the likes of yourself and bad boy bubbly delude yourself in thinking buying bargain bin tripe is helping our transfer policy rather than developing youth and giving it an opportunity instead, then that is pathetic. The argument is to stop looking at the transfer market for these mere squad players. It doesn't work.

      You and bubbly sneer at me saying merely "pursuing the transfer market will fail", but take a close look, and besides the select few players who have been a success, the majority of Liverpool signings have been total sh*t. And as a result, the last two decades we have been way way off where we want to be, having never consistently challenged. And that to me is failure by Liverpool's high standards.

      In our glory years, we could pursue a record transfer fee for Dalglish. Why? Because we had capable youth players who had made it through the ranks to the senior squad like David Fairclough in striker too. So we had the money to spend on one world class player and a capable deputy in Fairclough. These days, it's not about breaking a transfer record with Liverpool, but spreading and juggling a transfer fund to buy two strikers who are decent but not world class - good, but not good enough. If we had capable players from the youth ranks, that would give us the depth, as opposed to missing out on a top top player because we need to spread the transfer funds around the squad to desperately fill he squad quota. Similar situation with Dortmund too in their peak - no need to be stingy with pursuing their desired player because the youth already provided capable back up.

      It's no 'fluke' that teams like Dortmund produce capable talent worthy of their team. It is down to coaching and developing a young player the right way. I'm encouraged that Brendan realises this and has reformed the academy (but it will take patience for the players to come through).

      If you think merely pursuing the transfer market is the only option, then by all means, go ahead with that view, but remember what Einstein said about insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".
      « Last Edit: Aug 26, 2015 09:40:50 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #53: Aug 26, 2015 10:16:36 pm
      Apologies if you think I am sneering at you........

      I have been on record many times against the low risk £10M punt which incidentally has barely ever paid off and in fact if you add up all those punts we probably could have afforded the likes of Ronaldo, who Houlier at the time thought was asking for too high wages!

      You mention Dortmund but tell me how many of their players are local boys they have devolped, Reus, Hummells, Kagawa, Auybameyang, Miktarayan or even Lewandowski?
      I can only think of Goetze so not that different from LFC, but difference being they have bought some quality players and dare I say it under a quality manager who got the best from those players!

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #54: Aug 26, 2015 10:57:31 pm
      Apologies if you think I am sneering at you........

      I have been on record many times against the low risk £10M punt which incidentally has barely ever paid off and in fact if you add up all those punts we probably could have afforded the likes of Ronaldo, who Houlier at the time thought was asking for too high wages!

      You mention Dortmund but tell me how many of their players are local boys they have devolped, Reus, Hummells, Kagawa, Auybameyang, Miktarayan or even Lewandowski?
      I can only think of Goetze so not that different from LFC, but difference being they have bought some quality players and dare I say it under a quality manager who got the best from those players!



      Well, Gotze and Grosskreutz are the two World Cup winners produced from that academy, as well as Reus, Sahin and Schmelzer who are current first team stars. If it weren't for the poaching of star players (Gotze one of course, but the others remain), they would have more in the squad.

      That's just four key first team players, there are others who are on the senior squad fringe. Four doesn't seem a lot but that's probably the good handful that is required (again, I'm not expecting the match day squad to be full to the brim). Now that's saving a good chunk of the transfer budget just on those players - even a few squad places filled saves a lot which can be put in the pot towards the best player available in the market.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #55: Aug 29, 2015 10:48:13 am
      Now that excludes the money bag clubs as they have unlimited funds to buy their way out of trouble - I still cannot believe how some are finding it difficult to distinguish between those clubs and ours.  :lmao:

      And yet, the intelligent in our midsts still "can't believe" that there are still 'Reds' who do not realise that we are a F***ing "money bags club" - 8th richest in the world, in fact. Then again: the definition of "money bags clubs"  probably moves (along with the goalposts, yet again) to suit the 'argument' and only the 7 richest clubs in the world are "money bags clubs"; eh?  :roll:

      We have money... loads of the stuff. To the extent that we spent £350m in the past 5 seasons.

      However all the money debate does is move the goal posts in an an attempt to obfuscate the Academy issue.

      Do all or any successful clubs look to the transfer market, for answers?

      Do any of them produce big numbers of kids [through their respective academies] good enough to force their way into a team with very high ambitions?

      Are we really being asked to believe that any of this really down to those clubs having... a) sh*t coaches and b) not recruiting enough locals?   :roll:

      It is narrow minded for anyone to think the answers are only in the transfer market.
      It is indeed: who, exactly, said that it was the "only" answer btw?  :dunce2:

      The answer is probably a balance of the two [youth & experience]
      Eleven days ago...  :laugh:

      That is not the point. But if the likes of yourself and bad boy bubbly delude yourself in thinking buying bargain bin tripe is helping our transfer policy
      Oh dear... again with the lies. Why are you making sh*t up - did we actually say that or did you imagine it?   :lmao:

      Seriously mate: when you're wrong, you're wrong... accept it and move on - don't invent sh*t to suit your argument.

      The truth? The debate started when you said we should give Rossiter a chance instead of buying Illarramendi. If you believe Illarramendi is "bargin bin tripe" and not as good as Jordan Rossiter then fair enough, you are, like everyone else, entitled to your opinion but do yourself a favour and stay away from the lies buddy - they make you look a tad childish and a bit of a slow-witted ball-bag. 

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Although this is a good debate to be having, I'm confused as to what people are expecting from the Academy.

      So anyhow... back to expectation.

      My expectations are quite simple and honest:

      Pastoral: that our club continues to look after the educational well being of every kid in it's care and more importantly, it gives them the support to cope when they fail to make it - which, if we are being honest and dealing in facts, most of them will [just like the 99.99% of all kids at all academies btw].

      Football: the Academy keeps working with and keeps recruiting the best young lads the club can attract: in  the hope [like every other club] that they can unearth that one special player. That one kid, in a million, who will ever be good enough to play in the premier league for a top club.

      If and when that unearthing happens; I (personally) have every faith that Liverpool F.C. will give that kid his chance - just like we have always done [Flanno being living proof of that].

      Although, the fact remains - we could just cave in to the romanticism of it all and give more and more Academy [and local] kids a regular place on the team - you know; kids who could hold down a place at mid-table club, with limited ambition, like Swansea, Palace, Southampton and West Ham (for example). Then again, if we do; we obviously run the risk of becoming one of those clubs.

      Is that a sacrifice worth making? No, not for me, it isn't but each 'Red' to their own.
      « Last Edit: Aug 29, 2015 12:09:05 pm by bad boy bubby »
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #56: Aug 29, 2015 08:07:48 pm
      And yet, the intelligent in our midsts still "can't believe" that there are still 'Reds' who do not realise that we are a f**king "money bags club" - 8th richest in the world, in fact. Then again: the definition of "money bags clubs"  probably moves (along with the goalposts, yet again) to suit the 'argument' and only the 7 richest clubs in the world are "money bags clubs"; eh?  :roll:

      We have money... loads of the stuff. To the extent that we spent £350m in the past 5 seasons.

      However all the money debate does is move the goal posts in an an attempt to obfuscate the Academy issue.

      Do all or any successful clubs look to the transfer market, for answers?

      Do any of them produce big numbers of kids [through their respective academies] good enough to force their way into a team with very high ambitions?

      Are we really being asked to believe that any of this really down to those clubs having... a) sh*t coaches and b) not recruiting enough locals?   :roll:
      It is indeed: who, exactly, said that it was the "only" answer btw?  :dunce2:
       Eleven days ago...  :laugh:
      Oh dear... again with the lies. Why are you making sh*t up - did we actually say that or did you imagine it?   :lmao:

      Seriously mate: when you're wrong, you're wrong... accept it and move on - don't invent sh*t to suit your argument.

      The truth? The debate started when you said we should give Rossiter a chance instead of buying Illarramendi. If you believe Illarramendi is "bargin bin tripe" and not as good as Jordan Rossiter then fair enough, you are, like everyone else, entitled to your opinion but do yourself a favour and stay away from the lies buddy - they make you look a tad childish and a bit of a slow-witted ball-bag. 

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      So anyhow... back to expectation.

      My expectations are quite simple and honest:

      Pastoral: that our club continues to look after the educational well being of every kid in it's care and more importantly, it gives them the support to cope when they fail to make it - which, if we are being honest and dealing in facts, most of them will [just like the 99.99% of all kids at all academies btw].

      Football: the Academy keeps working with and keeps recruiting the best young lads the club can attract: in  the hope [like every other club] that they can unearth that one special player. That one kid, in a million, who will ever be good enough to play in the premier league for a top club.

      If and when that unearthing happens; I (personally) have every faith that Liverpool F.C. will give that kid his chance - just like we have always done [Flanno being living proof of that].

      Although, the fact remains - we could just cave in to the romanticism of it all and give more and more Academy [and local] kids a regular place on the team - you know; kids who could hold down a place at mid-table club, with limited ambition, like Swansea, Palace, Southampton and West Ham (for example). Then again, if we do; we obviously run the risk of becoming one of those clubs.

      Is that a sacrifice worth making? No, not for me, it isn't but each 'Red' to their own.

      If you really think we can compete with the likes of City and Chelsea, then god help us, you really are stupid. 8th richest you say?! Oh goody! That must mean we are rolling in it - until you realise there are four clubs above us in the same league on that list that are wealthier than us. Duh..... :dunce2:

      You've spun bullshit into me saying that looking into the transfer market is destined to fail on the other thread - but if you were a tad bit more literate you would have seen 'only' looking there would fail.  :smack: Key word - ONLY.... Oh hang on a minute, you've just acknowledged it now! Dunce's hat for bad boy bubby please! But hey, calling people liars is a nice wee defence mechanism there isn't it? Fact is pal, you bring it on yourself - your overly pedantic bullshit and spinning of people's posts makes you look like the kid in class who thinks he's a smart arse, but in reality is an insecure dim wit. I've seen you do it to Diego's posting a month ago with your patronising and condescending manner. As Frankly Mr Shankly said, stop with the sneers and arrogance - this argument was very dignified before you started with your typical arrogance, you're not quite as clever as you like to think you are. Others see it on this forum, so its time to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror. If you want a dignified argument, don't be shocked when it turns out like this with your smart-arse attitude comes along and taunts other people. Makes you look like a REAL dickhead.  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      « Last Edit: Aug 29, 2015 08:32:11 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
      • Guest
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #57: Aug 29, 2015 08:37:33 pm
      And yet, the intelligent in our midsts still "can't believe" that there are still 'Reds' who do not realise that we are a f**king "money bags club" - 8th richest in the world, in fact. Then again: the definition of "money bags clubs"  probably moves (along with the goalposts, yet again) to suit the 'argument' and only the 7 richest clubs in the world are "money bags clubs"; eh?  :roll:

      We have money... loads of the stuff. To the extent that we spent £350m in the past 5 seasons.

      However all the money debate does is move the goal posts in an an attempt to obfuscate the Academy issue.

      Do all or any successful clubs look to the transfer market, for answers?

      Do any of them produce big numbers of kids [through their respective academies] good enough to force their way into a team with very high ambitions?

      Are we really being asked to believe that any of this really down to those clubs having... a) sh*t coaches and b) not recruiting enough locals?   :roll:
      It is indeed: who, exactly, said that it was the "only" answer btw?  :dunce2:
       Eleven days ago...  :laugh:
      Oh dear... again with the lies. Why are you making sh*t up - did we actually say that or did you imagine it?   :lmao:

      Seriously mate: when you're wrong, you're wrong... accept it and move on - don't invent sh*t to suit your argument.

      The truth? The debate started when you said we should give Rossiter a chance instead of buying Illarramendi. If you believe Illarramendi is "bargin bin tripe" and not as good as Jordan Rossiter then fair enough, you are, like everyone else, entitled to your opinion but do yourself a favour and stay away from the lies buddy - they make you look a tad childish and a bit of a slow-witted ball-bag. 

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      So anyhow... back to expectation.

      My expectations are quite simple and honest:

      Pastoral: that our club continues to look after the educational well being of every kid in it's care and more importantly, it gives them the support to cope when they fail to make it - which, if we are being honest and dealing in facts, most of them will [just like the 99.99% of all kids at all academies btw].

      Football: the Academy keeps working with and keeps recruiting the best young lads the club can attract: in  the hope [like every other club] that they can unearth that one special player. That one kid, in a million, who will ever be good enough to play in the premier league for a top club.

      If and when that unearthing happens; I (personally) have every faith that Liverpool F.C. will give that kid his chance - just like we have always done [Flanno being living proof of that].

      Although, the fact remains - we could just cave in to the romanticism of it all and give more and more Academy [and local] kids a regular place on the team - you know; kids who could hold down a place at mid-table club, with limited ambition, like Swansea, Palace, Southampton and West Ham (for example). Then again, if we do; we obviously run the risk of becoming one of those clubs.

      Is that a sacrifice worth making? No, not for me, it isn't but each 'Red' to their own.

      Surely after today we've got other things on mind than to forensically analyse and then interpret every word (questionably) of fellow posters stances that on the whole have good intentions?

      No offence bbb but I'm having to put protective goggles on whenever I read your posts because the forum dick swinging you undertake from time to time is so extreme that someone's going to get hit in the eye. Jesus f**king Christ - I'm well out of here. Probably just saying what others are thinking but just putting it out there....fella.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #58: Aug 30, 2015 08:58:47 am
      If you really think we can compete with the likes of City and Chelsea, then god help us, you really are stupid. 8th richest you say?! Oh goody! That must mean we are rolling in it - until you realise there are four clubs above us in the same league on that list that are wealthier than us. Duh..... :dunce2:

      You've spun bullshit into me saying that looking into the transfer market is destined to fail on the other thread - but if you were a tad bit more literate you would have seen 'only' looking there would fail.  :smack: Key word - ONLY.... Oh hang on a minute, you've just acknowledged it now! Dunce's hat for bad boy bubby please! But hey, calling people liars is a nice wee defence mechanism there isn't it? Fact is pal, you bring it on yourself - your overly pedantic bullshit and spinning of people's posts makes you look like the kid in class who thinks he's a smart arse, but in reality is an insecure dim wit. I've seen you do it to Diego's posting a month ago with your patronising and condescending manner. As Frankly Mr Shankly said, stop with the sneers and arrogance - this argument was very dignified before you started with your typical arrogance, you're not quite as clever as you like to think you are. Others see it on this forum, so its time to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror. If you want a dignified argument, don't be shocked when it turns out like this with your smart-arse attitude comes along and taunts other people. Makes you look like a REAL dickhead.  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      I, clearly, have caused you offence - for that I apologise.

      Okay I will start again -  I'll 'say' the following and leave it there...

      I fully accept what you said - i.e.  1: There aren't enough players coming through the academy and 2: An academy player should only play if he is good enough. [is that a fair summary?]

      Now, having accepted that, (looking back), what I suggested, in reply, was - if both statements are accurate (which I believe them to be) then, until such times as we have 'academy' players good enough, to take their place, looking to the transfer market is the only answer. [I believe that is also a fair summary]. This, remember, was all in the context of a transfer link with Illarramendi; yes?

      My point being that: if you need a player for a specific role and you have no one in the Academy good enough then... surely, you must look for "answers" outside of the club and you must, surely, continue to do so... until those players exist.

      I also suggested that Liverpool F.C were no different from any other team, in that respect - I believe that to be true.


      No offence bbb but I'm having to put protective goggles on whenever I read your posts because the forum dick swinging you undertake from time to time is so extreme that someone's going to get hit in the eye

      You wouldn't need glasses for what I'm packing but I take your point [if your 'mates' tell you you're being a dick; you probably are] and I will act on it - no more debate from me; just say my piece and get out. Again... sorry for any offence caused.

      By the way... I've been called many, many, proper offensive names by some really hard men and some really good people; all of which I know and care about but never "stupid", "dunce" and/or 'illiterate': do you think they were just holding back?   :o  :laugh:



      « Last Edit: Aug 30, 2015 09:16:05 am by bad boy bubby »

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