Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager

Without meaning to sound argumentative mate, I don't believe there's any such thing as a "natural" in any position.
My reasoning is that kids are pigeonholed from a young age according to the strengths coaches think they do or don't have, and then coaching focuses on what is perceived to be their best position.
It's like "he's a big lad, stick him at the back" or "he's a big lad, and he's quick, put him up front".
It happens less in other countries (or so I'm led to believe), but in the UK (and Ireland) it's definitely a thing, where they want to stick a label on a kid as soon as they see one who shows signs of promise.
Now, there will be certain attributes that determine where a kid gets played, if he's good in the air say, or has quick feet etc but I just don't buy into the whole "natural position X" thing, because they are taught that they are "right" for a position from a young age.

Not argumentative mate - we're partially agreeing.

I get the principle and indeed have coached for a long, long time. Absolutely the curse of British football is the big lads at the back stereotype etc.

What I mean is that there are kids (who go on to be pros) whose instincts are naturally more defensive - they read the break of the ball and understand / absorb defensive patterns / routines better.

Everybody can improve / develop etc but I still think at the very top level there's often an inate instinct that can't be taught.

Now you might only need one or two like that to lead a defence - my point is that I think we've got one "regular" and he's injured.

I remember having similar discussions to this one about Coutinho, I said I had a feeling he'd be tempted by Barca. Got called all sorts for speculating, then "what's your source" and all that nonsense (as if I claimed to have one). They were obviously all falling over themselves to apologise when it turned out he'd put a transfer request in  , but I couldn't understand the angst, and I can't understand it now.

It's just an opinion. I haven't got "voices in my head"  I'm just having a guess, and I HOPE I'M WRONG. Why oh why does it have to turn into an argument every time?

I can understand why you think mate but I think there are differences between what happened with Coutinho and Klopp.

I believe almost everyone knew that eventually Barca or Real Madrid would come calling for him and, since that is his dream move, we know that he'll play there sometime (probably next year). What I didn't expect was the way he handled things during the summer but that's another subject.

While if Klopp wanted to coach someplace else he only needed to wait a few months instead of coming to Liverpool, how many teams have changed coaches since he came? Real, Barcelona, City, Chelsea, United, Bayern, Juventus so he could have had his pick of basically any team in the world. I believe he came to Liverpool because he really wants to be here so I believe that he'll stay and finish his project here, after that I think he'll probably take the Germany job.

Not argumentative mate - we're partially agreeing.

I get the principle and indeed have coached for a long, long time. Absolutely the curse of British football is the big lads at the back stereotype etc.

What I mean is that there are kids (who go on to be pros) whose instincts are naturally more defensive - they read the break of the ball and understand / absorb defensive patterns / routines better.

Everybody can improve / develop etc but I still think at the very top level there's often an inate instinct that can't be taught.

Now you might only need one or two like that to lead a defence - my point is that I think we've got one "regular" and he's injured.

I get what you're saying, and I kind of agree, but I also don't want to get into the psychological aspects of how un-natural (for example) throwing your head at a fast moving object is, and why it has to be taught or at least absorbed by a kid who gets into football.
So, the "natural" thing becomes something that has either intentionally or unintentionally been nurtured, and the ability comes from recognising certain situations.
I'm not really disagreeing, I just have a different take, and am starting to go down the "nature vs nurture" route which, while it seems wholly applicable, is probably me reading too much into it

I can understand why you think mate but I think there are differences between what happened with Coutinho and Klopp.

I believe almost everyone knew that eventually Barca or Real Madrid would come calling for him and, since that is his dream move, we know that he'll play there sometime (probably next year). What I didn't expect was the way he handled things during the summer but that's another subject.

While if Klopp wanted to coach someplace else he only needed to wait a few months instead of coming to Liverpool, how many teams have changed coaches since he came? Real, Barcelona, City, Chelsea, United, Bayern, Juventus so he could have had his pick of basically any team in the world. I believe he came to Liverpool because he really wants to be here so I believe that he'll stay and finish his project here, after that I think he'll probably take the Germany job.

Mate you might well be right, and it's something of a moot point anyway as it appears Bayern are going for the Hoffenheim guy. My point yesterday (which proved to be mega controversial) was that if they went all out for Jürgen, I had a hunch he might go. I set out the reasons for that yesterday so there's no point in going into it all over again today.

Where I was drawing the comparisons with the Coutinho saga is the days before it emerged that Coutinho had handed in a transfer request. Anybody who dared to suggest on here that there was a possibility that Coutinho might actually be up for the move was attacked with all guns blazing, dismissed as being a fantasist etc (it's all no doubt still on the thread, have a look if you don't believe me). Course once it emerged that he had actually asked to go, those people who were chucking abuse about just disappeared for a bit, not a word of "ah I might have got that one wrong there, sorry mate".

See I was asked yesterday whether klopp had "told me himself" that he might consider going. Obviously he hasn't  but by the same token, I don't think he's told anyone on here that he wouldn't either. All of us in the end are guessing based on limited information, but some of us are more willing to accept that not everyone is going to agree with us all of the time than others.

Anyways like I said, moot point as it looks like they're in for the Hoffenheim fella. I'm glad, because I still feel if they'd have gone all out for Jürgen he'd have been at least tempted.   

I've been 'banging that drum' for a long time Swab, as usual it's been mocked much like the "Firmino runs a lot" and the "we create the most chances" stats, it appears until it becomes facts and goals stop or goals are scored people believe it's irrelevant. I can't help those types, I know that going from conceding loads of shots on target to the fewest is progress, while it might not yet have manifest itself in less goals conceded it will.

The initial phases of defending have improved, we just currently have a propensity for allowing one small error to escalate into a disaster. A few more fire fighters or people able to see the fire developing before it becomes an inferno is what we need. That doesn't necessarily mean a change in personnel either it just needs a change in mentality, a lot less thinking just about their own jobs but fully understanding a system/structure and seeing where the pillars are showing signs of failure and propping them up. Lucas used to do it all the time, Mascherano also, it's a key skill of a proper DM but as we don't really play with one I'm hoping one of our lads can develop the skill, two would perfect.

Mate, the first paragraph is why we've lost some excellent posters, like RedDebs.
People who view things one dimensionally, because they lack the knowledge to look deeper are always going to mock things they either don't, or don't want to, understand.

The different phases of play are, to me, a vital part of understanding why we concede the way we do, but I also think it's important to know where to draw the line.
What I mean is, in my mind, if we clear the ball past the halfway line, and it doesn't come back straight away, then that begins a new phase, or series of phases, and we should be looking to reset, reorganise and look to push up and out (out in this case meaning wider), and for the most part I think we do that pretty well.
What we seem to be guilty of with 2nd and 3rd balls, is pushing out just a little too soon; we're over eager for the counter in situations that sometimes do not merit that eagerness.
When we get it right, it's awesome, but when we get it wrong, we're flat footed and often facing the wrong way.
I think Klopp is trying to educate the lads to understand there has to be a balance, and I have every confidence that he'll get there.

I get what you're saying, and I kind of agree, but I also don't want to get into the psychological aspects of how un-natural (for example) throwing your head at a fast moving object is, and why it has to be taught or at least absorbed by a kid who gets into football.
So, the "natural" thing becomes something that has either intentionally or unintentionally been nurtured, and the ability comes from recognising certain situations.
I'm not really disagreeing, I just have a different take, and am starting to go down the "nature vs nurture" route which, while it seems wholly applicable, is probably me reading too much into it

All good.

It's more nuanced (to my mind) than 'nature vs nurture'.

There's also a question of how the brain processes stimulus. I just don't think our guys process the way top defenders do.

Fascinating topic.

All good.

It's more nuanced (to my mind) than 'nature vs nurture'.

There's also a question of how the brain processes stimulus. I just don't think our guys process the way too defenders do.

Fascinating topic.

There's no doubt it's more nuanced mate, but I wanted to try and keep it simple in the Klopp thread so as not to stray too far off topic.

I think we're both saying the same kind of thing, but coming at it from different viewpoints.
I understand what you mean, and perhaps I should also say that my issue with the whole "he's not a natural position X" is because it's often used in a lazy way without any real understanding of the reasons why something is either natural or not, particularly by pundits, which I assume is where a lot of people pick it up from.
It's the same as the whole "low block" thing that many have started using, thinking it's just another term for parking the bus, but it's actually more complex than that, as you no doubt know.

Basically, jargon without proper understanding of a phrase, gets on my tits, and I find it pretentious 

There's no doubt it's more nuanced mate, but I wanted to try and keep it simple in the Klopp thread so as not to stray too far off topic.

I think we're both saying the same kind of thing, but coming at it from different viewpoints.
I understand what you mean, and perhaps I should also say that my issue with the whole "he's not a natural position X" is because it's often used in a lazy way without any real understanding of the reasons why something is either natural or not, particularly by pundits, which I assume is where a lot of people pick it up from.
It's the same as the whole "low block" thing that many have started using, thinking it's just another term for parking the bus, but it's actually more complex than that, as you no doubt know.

Basically, jargon without proper understanding of a phrase, gets on my tits, and I find it pretentious 

There's only one response to that Swab.

"Pretentious, moi?"

 

There's only one response to that Swab.

"Pretentious, moi?"

 

 
I've been Fawlty'd 

Mate, the first paragraph is why we've lost some excellent posters, like RedDebs.
People who view things one dimensionally, because they lack the knowledge to look deeper are always going to mock things they either don't, or don't want to, understand.

The different phases of play are, to me, a vital part of understanding why we concede the way we do, but I also think it's important to know where to draw the line.
What I mean is, in my mind, if we clear the ball past the halfway line, and it doesn't come back straight away, then that begins a new phase, or series of phases, and we should be looking to reset, reorganise and look to push up and out (out in this case meaning wider), and for the most part I think we do that pretty well.
What we seem to be guilty of with 2nd and 3rd balls, is pushing out just a little too soon; we're over eager for the counter in situations that sometimes do not merit that eagerness.
When we get it right, it's awesome, but when we get it wrong, we're flat footed and often facing the wrong way.
I think Klopp is trying to educate the lads to understand there has to be a balance, and I have every confidence that he'll get there.

He is, and one of the players who've improved most notably in this department is Moreno. I was constantly on at Milner for this very problem you highlight, last season. He would be on his bike before assuring the threat had been dealt with and this often left the opposition with an easy 2v1 situation at our LB area. Now by no means is Moreno perfect at this at the moment, he is by his very nature an impulsive and eager player but right now you can see he's quelling those urges and showing real restraint, and dare I say it a level of composure, until the risk is far less than the reward.

Other players key in this transition are our central midfielders and I'm least impressed with Can in this regard, but also with Wijunaldum on this phase of play. Both Can and Wijnaldum get themselves ahead of the ball too quickly in almost all scenarios, indeed against Spartak it was noticeable how often it was left to Coutinho to cover for Wijnaldum's over eager nature. To be fair to the little Brazilian he did Can's job probably better than Can could. Wijnaldum less so, but this is where it takes the ability to think beyond only what you've been instructed is your role, if he sees Can failing he can be the fire fighter, he can drop into his position and stop Can's over eager nature from causing a small problem to become a large one.

This is where the next stage in our development or recruitment will go, easy to say with Keita coming but we need those dynamic players who are able to do more than simple, linear thinking. This is why box-to-box players are so rare and so much in demand because to be classed as a true one you have to display talent in all 3 middle thirds of the pitch and while it sounds like all midfielders should have this, they most clearly do not.

Lallana has developed these talents and I've grown to appreciate his intelligence in play more and more. We've missed him probably more than most realise but what I do find both funny yet corrosive to proper football debate is that I actually saw my opinion on Adam mocked yesterday. Now, at the time I didn't give them the time of day, because it was clearly intended as nothing more than a wind-up exercise but as you mention Debs I'll attempt to give a little insight to why people find it exhausting and in the end not worth their efforts to post on here. 

I was actually one of the first people to call for him to be dropped into the 8 role, me and FL had many a disagreement over the lad and I thought his lack of pace would mean he'd never make it as a proper wide forward, such as Mane and Salah. However, his ability to retain possession, lead the press and relentless stamina would be an asset as an 8. Indeed we even went in depth how his ability/love of Cruyff turns would always slow down our attacks from the wide areas but actually would break lines in the midfield area. Having this opinion, which either by dumb luck or good judgement has proven to be correct, mocked and used as a flag for 'blindly supporting Jürgen' is why I believe we've lost people like Debs and force good posters like Danzel to make the post he did just the other day.

Conflict and disagreement go part and parcel on a forum but we have come to a point where some of the petty differences need to be laid to rest and people's opinions treated on merit rather than constant misrepresentation or it will consume the place and truthfully, I don't think that's what any of us want.

Sorry to go off topic in advance, but honestly I have got to get this off my chest.

I've just read a self-indulging, energy craving wall of "pretentious" drivel that pretends it's some kind of authority of education on this forum.

Seriously, in its desperation to stand out it seeks ownership on literally everything discussed.

To stand out, yesterday we were told 'we don't have the information' on talking football, rendering debate dead.

Today, we get a shallow lesson in pseudo physcho babble and are supposed to be awed by the 'nature v nurture' debate that neuroscientists, psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors, philosophers, behavioural therapists et al, to this very day still contest - who still do not have all the "information", yet our very own font of knowledge pretends he can take footballing debate down to the synapses and neurons of our grey matter and pass this off as credible knowledege. Impressed by the double standards and the gulf in complexities between Klopp and a football match, and the human brain? The former requiring much more information on a game of football witnessed, the latter merely needing The Mouths say so.

I tell you what, if the old building game is able to throw out these pseudo sporting/political science academics the Universities will soon be going bust - by Christ.

Pretentious? Pretentious you say...

Not just that, ownership. It wants to own people discussed, information garnered, and now terminology and meaning behind phrases in the game today - just so it can sound clever, stand out and over complicate things.

Low block - compact, deep, organised.

Three simple words to describe 'low block'. No science fiction behind it, no pseudo sporting science behind it, nothing clever about it, where one person holds the key to the meaning of life. Nothing to dissect and over analyse, simple phraseology for a simple concept.

There is something wrong there to constantly do this. I can't be the only one who isn't impressed by this latest bout of bs parading as an authority and ownership on anything and everything discussed on here.

Rant over.

Apologies.

Mate, the first paragraph is why we've lost some excellent posters, like RedDebs.
People who view things one dimensionally, because they lack the knowledge to look deeper are always going to mock things they either don't, or don't want to, understand.

The different phases of play are, to me, a vital part of understanding why we concede the way we do, but I also think it's important to know where to draw the line.
What I mean is, in my mind, if we clear the ball past the halfway line, and it doesn't come back straight away, then that begins a new phase, or series of phases, and we should be looking to reset, reorganise and look to push up and out (out in this case meaning wider), and for the most part I think we do that pretty well.
What we seem to be guilty of with 2nd and 3rd balls, is pushing out just a little too soon; we're over eager for the counter in situations that sometimes do not merit that eagerness.
When we get it right, it's awesome, but when we get it wrong, we're flat footed and often facing the wrong way.
I think Klopp is trying to educate the lads to understand there has to be a balance, and I have every confidence that he'll get there.

The main reason that people like debs left this forum that a lot people can't express their opinion or disapproval of someone else's opinion without resorting to personal insults. It is a great debate, the team has improved but still needs to be more composed under pressure,  too often the team tries to force the issue too much leading to a loss of pocession

The last two posts on this page I agree with every word of. What makes forums good is when people are ALLOWED to hold an alternative view to the norm. What makes them thrive is when posters don't seek to control the debate, don't thought police fellow forumites.

Two things make forums die. One is where abuse is tolerated and not stamped out rigorously at source. Often the problem is that the moderators allow the fact that that they broadly agree with the fella doing the sledging to cloud their judgement. Abuse shouldn't be tolerated ever.

The second thing which kills forums is when dissenters are silenced to the extent where everyone agrees with each other. There are glaring examples of that elsewhere.

The thing which people often fail to get, is that on a forum it is OK to take the p!ss out of people, to mock them a little if they take themselves over seriously or talk too much bollocks. Whether that bollocks is calling Dejan Lovren the future captain, or claiming Roberto Firmino ought to be mentioned in the same breath as Sanchez and Suarez matters not a jot. People who talk such rubbish should EXPECT a bit of p!ss taking, it's easy to deal with and laugh along with if you don't take yourself too seriously.

Belly has got stuck into the latest bout of bollocks here, and those involved ought to be big enough to at least accept it became a tad self indulgent and that's being kind.

It's all good though. Talking bollocks keeps the place going, but accepting the fact that people have a right to take the mickey out of you for doing so is a vital component too.

Bollocks make the world go round.

Is it F**k the sun.

He is, and one of the players who've improved most notably in this department is Moreno. I was constantly on at Milner for this very problem you highlight, last season. He would be on his bike before assuring the threat had been dealt with and this often left the opposition with an easy 2v1 situation at our LB area. Now by no means is Moreno perfect at this at the moment, he is by his very nature an impulsive and eager player but right now you can see he's quelling those urges and showing real restraint, and dare I say it a level of composure, until the risk is far less than the reward.

Other players key in this transition are our central midfielders and I'm least impressed with Can in this regard, but also with Wijunaldum on this phase of play. Both Can and Wijnaldum get themselves ahead of the ball too quickly in almost all scenarios, indeed against Spartak it was noticeable how often it was left to Coutinho to cover for Wijnaldum's over eager nature. To be fair to the little Brazilian he did Can's job probably better than Can could. Wijnaldum less so, but this is where it takes the ability to think beyond only what you've been instructed is your role, if he sees Can failing he can be the fire fighter, he can drop into his position and stop Can's over eager nature from causing a small problem to become a large one.

This is where the next stage in our development or recruitment will go, easy to say with Keita coming but we need those dynamic players who are able to do more than simple, linear thinking. This is why box-to-box players are so rare and so much in demand because to be classed as a true one you have to display talent in all 3 middle thirds of the pitch and while it sounds like all midfielders should have this, they most clearly do not.

Lallana has developed these talents and I've grown to appreciate his intelligence in play more and more. We've missed him probably more than most realise but what I do find both funny yet corrosive to proper football debate is that I actually saw my opinion on Adam mocked yesterday. Now, at the time I didn't give them the time of day, because it was clearly intended as nothing more than a wind-up exercise but as you mention Debs I'll attempt to give a little insight to why people find it exhausting and in the end not worth their efforts to post on here. 

I was actually one of the first people to call for him to be dropped into the 8 role, me and FL had many a disagreement over the lad and I thought his lack of pace would mean he'd never make it as a proper wide forward, such as Mane and Salah. However, his ability to retain possession, lead the press and relentless stamina would be an asset as an 8. Indeed we even went in depth how his ability/love of Cruyff turns would always slow down our attacks from the wide areas but actually would break lines in the midfield area. Having this opinion, which either by dumb luck or good judgement has proven to be correct, mocked and used as a flag for 'blindly supporting Jürgen' is why I believe we've lost people like Debs and force good posters like Danzel to make the post he did just the other day.

Conflict and disagreement go part and parcel on a forum but we have come to a point where some of the petty differences need to be laid to rest and people's opinions treated on merit rather than constant misrepresentation or it will consume the place and truthfully, I don't think that's what any of us want.

Some interesting points there, and in particular Moreno.
I'm not going to say he'll ever be a top defender, but he's a very good footballer, and if he can cut out the brain farts, he could go on to be a vital part of our attack, and at least adequate in defense.
The post that Danzel took off RAWK made me look at his play in a different light, and it became clear just how much we push teams towards our left, which also goes some way to explaining how a defender who looked superb at Southampton looked such a liability here.
I've noticed as well that we've started pushing teams to our right as well, which says to me that Klopp is slowly but surely getting his idea's stuck in players heads.
We've all heard Klopp talk about the right moment, to make the right decision, but that takes time, which I suppose is why his teams start to peak after about 3 years.

ahh, I see the NewKit trolls are backing each other up again.

They probably hear the same voices in their heads, although why they feel the need to constantly lie their arses off is beyond me.

Funny thing is, the more people ignore them, the more outlandish their lies and behaviour become.
So very sad.

Without meaning to sound argumentative mate, I don't believe there's any such thing as a "natural" in any position.
My reasoning is that kids are pigeonholed from a young age according to the strengths coaches think they do or don't have, and then coaching focuses on what is perceived to be their best position.
It's like "he's a big lad, stick him at the back" or "he's a big lad, and he's quick, put him up front".
It happens less in other countries (or so I'm led to believe), but in the UK (and Ireland) it's definitely a thing, where they want to stick a label on a kid as soon as they see one who shows signs of promise.
Now, there will be certain attributes that determine where a kid gets played, if he's good in the air say, or has quick feet etc but I just don't buy into the whole "natural position X" thing, because they are taught that they are "right" for a position from a young age.

I don't coach the highest level, but I try to move my 12-13 year old players around a good bit to avoid just that pigeonholing. There's too much left that will change for me to decide "You're a defender. You're a winger" or whatever. There's still a lot of time for them to show where they are best.

I don't coach the highest level, but I try to move my 12-13 year old players around a good bit to avoid just that pigeonholing. There's too much left that will change for me to decide "You're a defender. You're a winger" or whatever. There's still a lot of time for them to show where they are best.

100%

My original point wasn't really about kids - more than some players just love to defend.

They like the game out in front and enjoy that side of the game. I don't feel any our regular back line have that or the leadership that often goes with it.

I don't coach the highest level, but I try to move my 12-13 year old players around a good bit to avoid just that pigeonholing. There's too much left that will change for me to decide "You're a defender. You're a winger" or whatever. There's still a lot of time for them to show where they are best.

I've seen everything from the pigeonholing through to trying to get 8 year olds to play tactically (that one didn't end well).

In my experience, kids get into football because they enjoy it, and in many cases, want to emulate their heroes, but it seems as though these days the game is taken way too seriously from too young an age, kids are having the joy and the talent coached out of them, and they lose their love for the game or start to see it as a chore.

This is why, for me, Klopp is a breath of fresh air; he really loves the game, he loves coaching, and he loves developing players.
We need more like him at every level.

100%

My original point wasn't really about kids - more than some players just love to defend.

They like the game out in front and enjoy that side of the game. I don't feel any our regular back line have that or the leadership that often goes with it.

For me, Hyypia was the last "pure" defender we had.
Some would say Carra, but he was a converted midfielder and learned his CB trade off Sami.

I did a thread a while back where the premise was that players are now expected to be footballers first, and defenders second, and nothing I've seen in recent years makes me think otherwise.

Mad b***ard him...

F***ing love him.

Some interesting points there, and in particular Moreno.
I'm not going to say he'll ever be a top defender, but he's a very good footballer, and if he can cut out the brain farts, he could go on to be a vital part of our attack, and at least adequate in defense.
The post that Danzel took off RAWK made me look at his play in a different light, and it became clear just how much we push teams towards our left, which also goes some way to explaining how a defender who looked superb at Southampton looked such a liability here.
I've noticed as well that we've started pushing teams to our right as well, which says to me that Klopp is slowly but surely getting his idea's stuck in players heads.
We've all heard Klopp talk about the right moment, to make the right decision, but that takes time, which I suppose is why his teams start to peak after about 3 years.

The whole tactics thing has put Moreno in a different light for me too. He has a very big responsability in his zone and quite a bit of ground to cover in transition situations where he's often up against two players. Too many people still waiting for him to F**k up once though, so they can go "Told you so, he's still the old sh*t Moreno." He clearly has improved and there's still plenty of room for improvement.

I just think that with all that in mind, that Klopp isn't willing to throw Robertson into the deep end yet. It has nothing to do with Klopp not rating Robertson, Robertson not being good enough or him supposedly being a TC-signing. It has everything to do with the way we try to channel the opposition's attacks down our flanks. The current situation and rotation is perfect for the both of them. Robertson gets to play the defensively 'easier' games where he can display his attacking talents while being eased in and on the other hand we keep Moreno fresh to deal with the bigger games. Perfect situation, one we sadly don't have on the other side of the defence with Clyne being out and two youngstes, who are in the same situation as Robertson in that they still have to learn a lot, having to play all the games.

The bit I put in bold is of paramount importance in both full back positions. When to join the press, when to stay in the defensive organisation, which players to pick up when their zone is getting attacked, ... That's where both Gomez and Trent have gone wrong numerous times this season and where their inexperience is highlighted even more. You see multiple situations per game where both Gomez and Trent are being caught out because they either make the wrong decision or they're indecisive and are played around with ease. A few managers / players have already admitted to targetting our right side as that's where our current weak spot is. It also shows the big difference a senior defender like Clyne makes (who also has his flaws) compared to a young, inexperienced defender. Clyne's decision making in these situations is far superior compared to theirs.

It's not all down to Gomez and Trent though, it's why I also have a big problem with a midfield three where Can is playing and his inability to track runners and give extra cover to the young lads. We've conceded quite a few goals from our right side because the FB is caught out, Can doesn't track, Henderson has to move over and it always leaves a huge gap in front of our defence and it always leaves our CB's in a position where they have to make a choice between marking the man in their zone or picking up the runner.

Whenever you have to make such a choice as a CB, most of the time you've already lost. Perfect example is Matip against Leicester with Vardy's goal. He has to make a choice, chooses to move forward to cover Okazaki and leaves Vardy wide open. People can't blame him in that situation for making that choice because he shouldn't have to make it in the first place.

The whole tactics thing has put Moreno in a different light for me too. He has a very big responsability in his zone and quite a bit of ground to cover in transition situations where he's often up against two players. Too many people still waiting for him to F**k up once though, so they can go "Told you so, he's still the old sh*t Moreno." He clearly has improved and there's still plenty of room for improvement.

I just think that with all that in mind, that Klopp isn't willing to throw Robertson into the deep end yet. It has nothing to do with Klopp not rating Robertson, Robertson not being good enough or him supposedly being a TC-signing. It has everything to do with the way we try to channel the opposition's attacks down our flanks. The current situation and rotation is perfect for the both of them. Robertson gets to play the defensively 'easier' games where he can display his attacking talents while being eased in and on the other hand we keep Moreno fresh to deal with the bigger games. Perfect situation, one we sadly don't have on the other side of the defence with Clyne being out and two youngstes, who are in the same situation as Robertson in that they still have to learn a lot, having to play all the games.

The bit I put in bold is of paramount importance in both full back positions. When to join the press, when to stay in the defensive organisation, which players to pick up when their zone is getting attacked, ... That's where both Gomez and Trent have gone wrong numerous times this season and where their inexperience is highlighted even more. You see multiple situations per game where both Gomez and Trent are being caught out because they either make the wrong decision or they're indecisive and are played around with ease. A few managers / players have already admitted to targetting our right side as that's where our current weak spot is. It also shows the big difference a senior defender like Clyne makes (who also has his flaws) compared to a young, inexperienced defender. Clyne's decision making in these situations is far superior compared to theirs.

It's not all down to Gomez and Trent though, it's why I also have a big problem with a midfield three where Can is playing and his inability to track runners and give extra cover to the young lads. We've conceded quite a few goals from our right side because the FB is caught out, Can doesn't track, Henderson has to move over and it always leaves a huge gap in front of our defence and it always leaves our CB's in a position where they have to make a choice between marking the man in their zone or picking up the runner.

Whenever you have to make such a choice as a CB, most of the time you've already lost. Perfect example is Matip against Leicester with Vardy's goal. He has to make a choice, chooses to move forward to cover Okazaki and leaves Vardy wide open. People can't blame him in that situation for making that choice because he shouldn't have to make it in the first place.

Good post again mate.
I can't answer as completely as I'd like right now, as I'm heading out in a few, but will try to remember to do it tomorrow