Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager

The whole tactics thing has put Moreno in a different light for me too. He has a very big responsability in his zone and quite a bit of ground to cover in transition situations where he's often up against two players. Too many people still waiting for him to f**k up once though, so they can go "Told you so, he's still the old sh*t Moreno." He clearly has improved and there's still plenty of room for improvement.

I just think that with all that in mind, that Klopp isn't willing to throw Robertson into the deep end yet. It has nothing to do with Klopp not rating Robertson, Robertson not being good enough or him supposedly being a TC-signing. It has everything to do with the way we try to channel the opposition's attacks down our flanks. The current situation and rotation is perfect for the both of them. Robertson gets to play the defensively 'easier' games where he can display his attacking talents while being eased in and on the other hand we keep Moreno fresh to deal with the bigger games. Perfect situation, one we sadly don't have on the other side of the defence with Clyne being out and two youngstes, who are in the same situation as Robertson in that they still have to learn a lot, having to play all the games.

The bit I put in bold is of paramount importance in both full back positions. When to join the press, when to stay in the defensive organisation, which players to pick up when their zone is getting attacked, ... That's where both Gomez and Trent have gone wrong numerous times this season and where their inexperience is highlighted even more. You see multiple situations per game where both Gomez and Trent are being caught out because they either make the wrong decision or they're indecisive and are played around with ease. A few managers / players have already admitted to targetting our right side as that's where our current weak spot is. It also shows the big difference a senior defender like Clyne makes (who also has his flaws) compared to a young, inexperienced defender. Clyne's decision making in these situations is far superior compared to theirs.

It's not all down to Gomez and Trent though, it's why I also have a big problem with a midfield three where Can is playing and his inability to track runners and give extra cover to the young lads. We've conceded quite a few goals from our right side because the FB is caught out, Can doesn't track, Henderson has to move over and it always leaves a huge gap in front of our defence and it always leaves our CB's in a position where they have to make a choice between marking the man in their zone or picking up the runner.

Whenever you have to make such a choice as a CB, most of the time you've already lost. Perfect example is Matip against Leicester with Vardy's goal. He has to make a choice, chooses to move forward to cover Okazaki and leaves Vardy wide open. People can't blame him in that situation for making that choice because he shouldn't have to make it in the first place.

Top post Danzel and much like Swab, the post you highlighted about Moreno made me view him in an entirely different light and ever since I've had a real appreciation for how he's improved on the reckless lad of the past.

Totally agree with Can and while I don't generally like to call players lazy he has that tag off me right now, he's infuriating me to be honest and I simply can't wait to get Lallana back. Sure Wijnaldum has had few touches but he does do his part in the press and the ushering of the opposition into the areas you highlighted and from there we have created many chances but Can just seems to be that weak link that either can't comprehend what his place in the side entails, or is unwilling to go that extra yard (as highlighted most by the running stats you also showed in a different thread).

I know Emre has moaned about the fact he'd rather play the 6 role, whether this is because he simply doesn't have the stamina of an 8 in a Klopp system I'm not sure, but realistically he wont get an easier ride and if anything our 6 has to be the player who covers the most distance, much like Henderson has been doing. Had Emre done his job more consistently it might be that Henderson didn't need to cover those extra yards, I'm not too sure on that, but I am sure that Emre is the weakest link in our midfield right now and I must admit as long as we bring someone additional in as well as Keita, I'm not going to miss him too much if he does swan off to Juve in the summer. I will say there was a time when I thought he had enormous potential, but his weaknesses are showing little signs of improvement, his awareness was always an issue and still is and now with what I perceived as relative laziness (compared to the other midfielders in our squad) then I'm not too sure Jürgen will be trying to be overly persuasive for Emre to stay.

Guess we'll soon enough find out as I believe he can sign a pre-contract in Jan.

Basically, jargon without proper understanding of a phrase, gets on my tits, and I find it pretentious 

Mate, bit suprised you don't see a contradiction in here ^

Top post Danzel and much like Swab, the post you highlighted about Moreno made me view him in an entirely different light and ever since I've had a real appreciation for how he's improved on the reckless lad of the past.

Totally agree with Can and while I don't generally like to call players lazy he has that tag off me right now, he's infuriating me to be honest and I simply can't wait to get Lallana back. Sure Wijnaldum has had few touches but he does do his part in the press and the ushering of the opposition into the areas you highlighted and from there we have created many chances but Can just seems to be that weak link that either can't comprehend what his place in the side entails, or is unwilling to go that extra yard (as highlighted most by the running stats you also showed in a different thread).

I know Emre has moaned about the fact he'd rather play the 6 role, whether this is because he simply doesn't have the stamina of an 8 in a Klopp system I'm not sure, but realistically he wont get an easier ride and if anything our 6 has to be the player who covers the most distance, much like Henderson has been doing. Had Emre done his job more consistently it might be that Henderson didn't need to cover those extra yards, I'm not too sure on that, but I am sure that Emre is the weakest link in our midfield right now and I must admit as long as we bring someone additional in as well as Keita, I'm not going to miss him too much if he does swan off to Juve in the summer. I will say there was a time when I thought he had enormous potential, but his weaknesses are showing little signs of improvement, his awareness was always an issue and still is and now with what I perceived as relative laziness (compared to the other midfielders in our squad) then I'm not too sure Jürgen will be trying to be overly persuasive for Emre to stay.

Guess we'll soon enough find out as I believe he can sign a pre-contract in Jan.

Interesting that emre was praised lavishly after the arsenal match , he seemed to cover every blade of grass, seems to dip in terms of performance and energy levels too often

Always loved Bob Paisley..

"If you're in the penalty area and don't know what to do with the ball, put it in the net and we'll discuss the options later."

Football was a lot simpler then.  We won a shedload too.

Seems to be a lot of men with tits on here tonight, it is like a bangkok nightclub

Interesting that emre was praised lavishly after the arsenal match , he seemed to cover every blade of grass, seems to dip in terms of performance and energy levels too often

Yeah, that's fair.

Always loved Bob Paisley..

"If you're in the penalty area and don't know what to do with the ball, put it in the net and we'll discuss the options later."

Football was a lot simpler then.  We won a shedload too.

Doesn't matter if you score in the first or last minute

It is not about the short ball or the long ball, it's about the right ball

Genius and simplicity

Doesn't matter if you score in the first or last minute

It is not about the short ball or the long ball, it's about the right ball

Genius and simplicity

Wasn't quite the same amount of jargon back then

Top post Danzel and much like Swab, the post you highlighted about Moreno made me view him in an entirely different light and ever since I've had a real appreciation for how he's improved on the reckless lad of the past.

I think that recklesness was one of the biggest problems most people had with him. Whenever he'd try to make an interception or a tackle, he'd fly in like a mad man and more often than not, he'd take himself out of the game completely leaving acres of space in behind where Lovren would then start to panic. His current approach in these situations seems to be far more measured and you very rarely see him flying in anymore. From memory I think I can only remember one time this season where it almost went wrong and that was late in the 2nd half in Hoffenheim.

Totally agree with Can and while I don't generally like to call players lazy he has that tag off me right now, he's infuriating me to be honest and I simply can't wait to get Lallana back. Sure Wijnaldum has had few touches but he does do his part in the press and the ushering of the opposition into the areas you highlighted...

He infuriates me too, he has bags of talent and potential, but his head doesn't seem to be in it right now. I don't think it's down to fitness levels / stamina issues. If it were, surely Klopp and his staff would substitute him more often later in games where he's an even bigger liability if he can't keep up with the pace of the game?

I don't remember which game it was, think it was against Arsenal for Salah's goal, he'd make the fastest sprint I'd ever seen him make, almost putting Usain Bolt to shame, to join the counter-attack and that was around the hour mark. He just can't be bothered to do his defensive duties it seems and it's costing us points. Problem being that both Grujic and Alex aren't ready either to play in that position, so he was the only option for Klopp. Good call with Wijnaldum there. I remember people using the amount of touches he had on the ball during the Leicester game as a statistic to say he had a bad game. People should watch that game again and look at his work off the ball, I think he did really, really well. In our system (in any system really), the work the players do off the ball is equally important as the work the players do when on the ball.

Wasn't his preference to play in that #6 role during the period where he was carrying that calf injury and that the #6 role would require him to make less sprints and make it easier to play there with that injury? I don't think he's a player who'd like to be limited to that #6 position, he joins attacks way too often and doesn't have the discipline to play there. He'd probably have to do less running in that position though if we'd switch Henderson and him around because Henderson would actually do his defensive duties and track the runner.

If I were Henderson, I'd be really pissed off with Can. Can is making him look sh*t because he constantly has to fill the gaps Can is leaving behind and people then think Henderson is out of position while he actually is doing exactly what Klopp expects him to do. The problem is that Can doesn't return the favour to cover Henderson when Henderson is covering for him. With Coutinho back I'd expect to see a midfield of Coutinho - Henderson - Wijnaldum more often.

If I were Henderson, I'd be really pissed off with Can. Can is making him look sh*t because he constantly has to fill the gaps Can is leaving behind and people then think Henderson is out of position while he actually is doing exactly what Klopp expects him to do. The problem is that Can doesn't return the favour to cover Henderson when Henderson is covering for him.

The reverse is that Can has scored more goals than the other CMs, and maybe is the one of the 3 most encouraged to get forward when the opportunity presents. The onus from Klopp is not to sit when there is a chance to break. So if it breaks down, whoevers left is gonna be a bit exposed. Why should Can ship criticism if that is what they're being asked to do.

The reverse is that Can has scored more goals than the other CMs, and maybe is the one of the 3 most encouraged to get forward when the opportunity presents. The onus from Klopp is not to sit when there is a chance to break. So if it breaks down, whoevers left is gonna be a bit exposed. Why should Can ship criticism if that is what they're being asked to do.

I'm not talking about when opportunities present themselves to get forward, of course he's encouraged to get forward, just like Wijnaldum is. You don't see Wijnaldum walking back to his position though.

I'm talking about situations around the half way line or on our own half. For example Sevilla's 2nd goal, Leicester's 2nd goal, Watford's 2nd goal, Spartak's goal, ... All situations around the half way line where we (he) lose(s) possession, where he's not in position and where he doesn't even try to get back into position or to cover someone else. Watch back all of these goals, you'll always see him WALKING, doesn't even break a sweat or put in any effort. That has nothing to do with being allowed to break forward and join the attack or being a bit exposed when attacks break down high up the pitch.

Before you think I only criticise the lad, I don't. He can be a brilliant player, I'm just very annoyed with his complete lack of effort when it comes to doing his defensive duties.

The whole tactics thing has put Moreno in a different light for me too. He has a very big responsability in his zone and quite a bit of ground to cover in transition situations where he's often up against two players. Too many people still waiting for him to F**k up once though, so they can go "Told you so, he's still the old sh*t Moreno." He clearly has improved and there's still plenty of room for improvement.

I just think that with all that in mind, that Klopp isn't willing to throw Robertson into the deep end yet. It has nothing to do with Klopp not rating Robertson, Robertson not being good enough or him supposedly being a TC-signing. It has everything to do with the way we try to channel the opposition's attacks down our flanks. The current situation and rotation is perfect for the both of them. Robertson gets to play the defensively 'easier' games where he can display his attacking talents while being eased in and on the other hand we keep Moreno fresh to deal with the bigger games. Perfect situation, one we sadly don't have on the other side of the defence with Clyne being out and two youngstes, who are in the same situation as Robertson in that they still have to learn a lot, having to play all the games.

The bit I put in bold is of paramount importance in both full back positions. When to join the press, when to stay in the defensive organisation, which players to pick up when their zone is getting attacked, ... That's where both Gomez and Trent have gone wrong numerous times this season and where their inexperience is highlighted even more. You see multiple situations per game where both Gomez and Trent are being caught out because they either make the wrong decision or they're indecisive and are played around with ease. A few managers / players have already admitted to targetting our right side as that's where our current weak spot is. It also shows the big difference a senior defender like Clyne makes (who also has his flaws) compared to a young, inexperienced defender. Clyne's decision making in these situations is far superior compared to theirs.

It's not all down to Gomez and Trent though, it's why I also have a big problem with a midfield three where Can is playing and his inability to track runners and give extra cover to the young lads. We've conceded quite a few goals from our right side because the FB is caught out, Can doesn't track, Henderson has to move over and it always leaves a huge gap in front of our defence and it always leaves our CB's in a position where they have to make a choice between marking the man in their zone or picking up the runner.

Whenever you have to make such a choice as a CB, most of the time you've already lost. Perfect example is Matip against Leicester with Vardy's goal. He has to make a choice, chooses to move forward to cover Okazaki and leaves Vardy wide open. People can't blame him in that situation for making that choice because he shouldn't have to make it in the first place.

I'm thinking about Klopp wanting players to make the rights decisions at the right time, but also about how he goes about helping them to do that.
Trust is a key thing for Klopp, he's someone who wants to trust, and a player has to F**k up pretty badly to show he can't be trusted.

Something that I notice about our back line, is that we'll see Matip and Lovren move to the right while Henderson drops into the left side of a three, but what I haven't been able to work out yet, is if this is just cover for the RB, or if it is to change the pivot, to make the left an easier outlet, or maybe it's a combination of the 2, or a reason I haven't thought of.
Klopp has the team doing a lot of this, with different players filling different positions to either create space, change the pivot or provide cover, and I think maybe this is where Can is having problems.

Mate, bit suprised you don't see a contradiction in here ^

Tell me I think it may be a problem of interpretation.

To me there are 2 types of jargon.
There's the jargon that large organisations like the branches of the military use, the jargon you hear from people very experienced in a particular job, basically the jargon that people who know something intimately use.

then there's the jargon that middle management use, full of useless bullshit designed only to exclude others from their "club".

I was talking about the first type of jargon, and if I've given a false impression of what I meant or not explained properly what I mean, that's my fault.

I'm not talking about when opportunities present themselves to get forward, of course he's encouraged to get forward, just like Wijnaldum is. You don't see Wijnaldum walking back to his position though.

I'm talking about situations around the half way line or on our own half. For example Sevilla's 2nd goal, Leicester's 2nd goal, Watford's 2nd goal, Spartak's goal, ... All situations around the half way line where we (he) lose(s) possession, where he's not in position and where he doesn't even try to get back into position or to cover someone else. Watch back all of these goals, you'll always see him WALKING, doesn't even break a sweat or put in any effort. That has nothing to do with being allowed to break forward and join the attack or being a bit exposed when attacks break down high up the pitch.

Before you think I only criticise the lad, I don't. He can be a brilliant player, I'm just very annoyed with his complete lack of effort when it comes to doing his defensive duties.

Which of Leicesters 2nd goals?   Can't recall thinking Can was at fault in either, certainly not more culpable that either other CM that the goal went in. But would need to look back. Anyway, can always pick out things - but in general, he puts in a LOT of work and covers a lot of ground. Yes he Can sometimes be slow getting back, but only recall 1 goal when he was asleep from a throw in (can't recall which match off the top of my head).
Regardless, when the onus is to be looking to attack, then tracking back etc. will suffer. He's still young, Hendo is a more experienced player, would expect his head to be more screwed on.
Don't completly disagree, just throwing in a defense of the lad.

Which of Leicesters 2nd goals?   Can't recall thinking Can was at fault in either, certainly not more culpable that either other CM that the goal went in. But would need to look back. Anyway, can always pick out things - but in general, he puts in a LOT of work and covers a lot of ground. Yes he Can sometimes be slow getting back, but only recall 1 goal when he was asleep from a throw in (can't recall which match off the top of my head).
Regardless, when the onus is to be looking to attack, then tracking back etc. will suffer. He's still young, Hendo is a more experienced player, would expect his head to be more screwed on.
Don't completly disagree, just throwing in a defense of the lad.

Think we must be watching a different Emre Can mate.

He's been extremely lazy and looks like he's played for himself all season.

And I think the lad can play!

I think that recklesness was one of the biggest problems most people had with him. Whenever he'd try to make an interception or a tackle, he'd fly in like a mad man and more often than not, he'd take himself out of the game completely leaving acres of space in behind where Lovren would then start to panic. His current approach in these situations seems to be far more measured and you very rarely see him flying in anymore. From memory I think I can only remember one time this season where it almost went wrong and that was late in the 2nd half in Hoffenheim.

He infuriates me too, he has bags of talent and potential, but his head doesn't seem to be in it right now. I don't think it's down to fitness levels / stamina issues. If it were, surely Klopp and his staff would substitute him more often later in games where he's an even bigger liability if he can't keep up with the pace of the game?

I don't remember which game it was, think it was against Arsenal for Salah's goal, he'd make the fastest sprint I'd ever seen him make, almost putting Usain Bolt to shame, to join the counter-attack and that was around the hour mark. He just can't be bothered to do his defensive duties it seems and it's costing us points. Problem being that both Grujic and Alex aren't ready either to play in that position, so he was the only option for Klopp. Good call with Wijnaldum there. I remember people using the amount of touches he had on the ball during the Leicester game as a statistic to say he had a bad game. People should watch that game again and look at his work off the ball, I think he did really, really well. In our system (in any system really), the work the players do off the ball is equally important as the work the players do when on the ball.

Wasn't his preference to play in that #6 role during the period where he was carrying that calf injury and that the #6 role would require him to make less sprints and make it easier to play there with that injury? I don't think he's a player who'd like to be limited to that #6 position, he joins attacks way too often and doesn't have the discipline to play there. He'd probably have to do less running in that position though if we'd switch Henderson and him around because Henderson would actually do his defensive duties and track the runner.

If I were Henderson, I'd be really pissed off with Can. Can is making him look sh*t because he constantly has to fill the gaps Can is leaving behind and people then think Henderson is out of position while he actually is doing exactly what Klopp expects him to do. The problem is that Can doesn't return the favour to cover Henderson when Henderson is covering for him. With Coutinho back I'd expect to see a midfield of Coutinho - Henderson - Wijnaldum more often.

Again, I totally agree.

I remember the moment of recklessness and I believe in the match thread he got more comments then, than at any other point. The lad has been performing so well (Moreno) and the level of praise he's received, compared to how much stick he received since he arrived really is poor form from those who were quick to stick the knife in.

With regards Can, I also agree he has bags of potential and when he first arrived I saw him very much in the Yaya Toure mould, a large lumbering tank of a man that when he hits top speed or when he chooses can literally force a moment to happen. A bit like Jonah Lomu, in that there really doesn't need to be anything happening around them and they just flick the switch and suddenly the opposition players can't touch them. With this in mind I was less concerned about his apparent awareness issues because he had this in his locker, but the negatives are starting to grate on me now.

As you say, he can be seen walking far too often when defensive duties are to be done and I didn't actually consider that his call to play the 6 role was down to his calf injury and less sprints being required, if that were the case then I'd lose some more respect because that is basically a request to be carried and that's insulting to Klopp, his team-mates and us as fans.

He could still go either way, but as Swab says 24 is now an age where you expect the weaknesses to show signs of improvement and his trajectory to his peak to be pretty clear. As it is I think Jürgen will draw a line under his Can project and move on quite easily. As much as that will frustrate Jürgen, in my opinion, I think it will be a relief for most LFC fans.

He's been extremely lazy and looks like he's played for himself all season.

Bit harsh. Still has credit in the bank for me after probably the goal of the season last year, 3 pts in a game going nowhere, big reason imo we got a CL place.

Tell me I think it may be a problem of interpretation.

To me there are 2 types of jargon.
There's the jargon that large organisations like the branches of the military use, the jargon you hear from people very experienced in a particular job, basically the jargon that people who know something intimately use.

then there's the jargon that middle management use, full of useless bullshit designed only to exclude others from their "club".

I was talking about the first type of jargon, and if I've given a false impression of what I meant or not explained properly what I mean, that's my fault.

I get thro a lot of jargon in work, so try to avoid it outside of it

Bit harsh. Still has credit in the bank for me after probably the goal of the season last year, 3 pts in a game going nowhere, big reason imo we got a CL place.

Did that make up entirely for his lazy, couldn't care less performances against the likes of Sunderland away and numerous other matches last year? I doubt it.

Bit harsh. Still has credit in the bank for me after probably the goal of the season last year, 3 pts in a game going nowhere, big reason imo we got a CL place.

I don't think it's harsh at all mate. He actually infuriated me last season - only turned up for the last quarter.

He and Gini have been very poor this far. I just, personally, think Gini has had a couple of better performances and Emre has only had Hoffenheim.

We all see things differently.

I don't think it's harsh at all mate. He actually infuriated me last season - only turned up for the last quarter.

He and Gini have been very poor this far. I just, personally, think Gini has had a couple of better performances and Emre has only had Hoffenheim.

We all see things differently.

We do. Think Carragher described him as a 60-70mill player during the Arse match. Don't think I'd go that far tho

Did that make up entirely for his lazy, couldn't care less performances against the likes of Sunderland away and numerous other matches last year? I doubt it.

Not saying he doesn't have his faults. Or dips in form.
But think he is a very good player for a young enough lad. He is abrasive and gets stuck in, something we don't have enough of in the squad.
Not sure what his contract situation is, but I'd be looking to renew it, rather than let him go.
If it came down to it, reckon most people would look to keep him too..

We do. Think Carragher described him as a 60-70mill player during the Arse match. Don't think I'd go that far tho

They all looked like that vs the Arse bmck......if only we'd known

In fairness I remember at the time thinking it was hyperbolic.