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      Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager

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      FL Red
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13363: Aug 15, 2017 04:54:35 pm
      And others would prefer to come up with bullshit conspiracy theories to deflect all blame from Klopp.

      Anyway enough of this I think we have far to entrenched views and aren't going to sway the other so lets agree to disagree, you think the owners want to deliberately harm the club or at least bleed it dry whilst I don't so lets leave it at that.

      This bickering must be very tedious for everyone else.
      I've never contended that they were "bleeding the club" but they certainly don't act in a way in which it appears that they care if we improve our squad significantly when it comes time to spend money. If you'd like to refute that with anything other than they put in a large bid for an unavailable player twice have at it. The funny thing is, I used to get labeled an FSG apologist because I tried to find reasons why they failed us year after year, why anyone would take a path that made it harder to improve. Finally I have come to realize it's because that's not what's important to them. Occam's razor and all.
      heimdall
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13364: Aug 15, 2017 04:59:56 pm
      I've never contended that they were "bleeding the club" but they certainly don't act in a way in which it appears that they care if we improve our squad significantly when it comes time to spend money. If you'd like to refute that with anything other than they put in a large bid for an unavailable player twice have at it. The funny thing is, I used to get labeled an FSG apologist because I tried to find reasons why they failed us year after year, why anyone would take a path that made it harder to improve. Finally I have come to realize it's because that's not what's important to them. Occam's razor and all.


      Ok final point on this from me. They have been fairly bad owners so far, you'll see me complaining plenty about them in previous years, but this year I just don't see the fault with them. They were willing to pay, unless you really believe these nonsense conspiracy theories, which I suspect you don't, but for whatever reasons the transfers just didn't get done, whether through bad luck, wrong targets, bad handling or weird market.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13365: Aug 15, 2017 05:00:17 pm
      "I think people should be held accountable for their actions but ultimately responsibility lies with the owners as they're the person responsible for hiring those that lead our club and most importantly they must also react when their appointments fail to deliver. FSG not only hired Michael Edwards but also promoted him. As a reward for what, exactly, I'm not quite sure. "

      I may have misinterpreted slightly, I thought you were implying that it was all the owners fault. If I misunderstood your argument I apologise.

      I wasn't, that's the thing, I was just saying that if someone is F***ing things up, as much as that person must be held accountable, then it does not reflect well on those responsible for hiring/sacking them either. I don't know to what extent I can blame Edwards either, but let's suppose we don't sign anyone else even though funds are available (according to FSG, but let's entirely believe them for a moment), which would mean, in most people's opinions, a terrible transfer window - then it probably says a lot about the judgement and ability of those in charge of sporting operations, ie Edwards. That would not absolve FSG of criticism, however, after all they hired and promoted Edwards, who would be an incompetent if we take all my assumptions/predictions as true. It would look even worse if he managed to keep his job in this scenario.

      I think that's fairly straightforward, to be honest. I'm not one for blaming FSG for all the ills of the world, but wouldn't absolve them from blame for the failings of those they appoint either.
      heimdall
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13366: Aug 15, 2017 05:03:23 pm
      I wasn't, that's the thing, I was just saying that if someone is f**king things up, as much as that person must be held accountable, then it does not reflect well on those responsible for hiring/sacking them either. I don't know to what extent I can blame Edwards either, but let's suppose we don't sign anyone else even though funds are available (according to FSG, but let's entirely believe them for a moment), which would mean, in most people's opinions, a terrible transfer window - then it probably says a lot about the judgement and ability of those in charge of sporting operations, ie Edwards. That would not absolve FSG of criticism, however, after all they hired and promoted Edwards, who would be an incompetent if we take all my assumptions/predictions as true. It would look even worse if he managed to keep his job in this scenario.

      I think that's fairly straightforward, to be honest. I'm not one for blaming FSG for all the ills of the world, but wouldn't absolve them from blame for the failings of those they appoint either.

      OK fair enough i think we are more or less on the same page really, its just that i see the blame a bit more on Edwards and/or Klopp's side but of course FSG who hired them must take some blame. BTW I love Klopp to bits as the manager but the tapping up was bad and the lack of option B and C etc is bad.
      Swab
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13367: Aug 15, 2017 05:27:29 pm
      No problem - happy to open the discussion on those areas a bit more.

      1) Well I think the context for clubs extends beyond Chelsea - for us I believe it should extend toward any title competitor. City managed to improve their squad significantly (they also splashed a ridiculous f*ck ton of cash). Even the mancs made vast improvements to their squad just from Lukaku and Matic (IMO one of the league's best players). Spuds were roughly where they needed to be anyway and Chelsea even depleted as they are still have an equivalent, if not better squad to us. Their starting lineup doesn't have as many holes especially when Bayakoko steps in and Rudiger settles in.

      I just don't think that our squad is competitive with the established title contenders yet. I think our playing style along with a few pieces (Couts/Mane/Lallana) have pasted over a lot of issues with our squad.

      2) As for the Plan A - that was in reference to first choice targets. Context/interpretation is certainly tricky here so it's up for discussion, but I think many of us took it as: Keita/VVD is our Plan A. If they're not available to us, then we're done looking for CM's/CB's and are happy with what we have. And the actions to this point have matched up with that interpretation.

      Meanwhile there are plenty of CB's/CM's out there who would be at the very least critical improvements to our squad - let alone to our starting XI. I think a lot of us would like to see us making real, serious efforts at these players, rather than recycling VVD and Keita for 3 months after being told very early on that we wouldn't land them.

      1) I honestly don't think we're very far behind the "monied" clubs, but the fact is that they can blow us out of the water when it comes to spending power.
      It's not a fact I'm happy about, but I have to accept it.
      Money being the power it is in the modern game, we have to do things differently, and although I think we could be doing better, I'm certain we could be a lot worse off.
      This isn't a new thing, this has been going on for close to 30 years now, and we had an owner and CEO who basically couldn't be arsed bringing the club into the commercial era, and were content to rest on their laurels, which in turn has brought us to the position we are in today.
      I look at the team we have, and at the squad, and I see a mixture of some good, some not so good, with weaknesses that need to be addressed.
      Patently, the club has tried to address the priorities the manager has identified, but for one reason or another, haven't been able to, but we're not the only ones having difficulties, so clearly there is more going on than just incompetence on our part.
      Utd may have got Lukaku, but they wanted Morato. God knows why Chelsea thought it was a good idea to sell them Matic.
      City have bought badly imo, and spent a shitload in the process. No one will ever convince me that Kyle Walker is anything other than average (in premier league terms), but they wanted another English player for their quota, and they also have a shitload of players returning from loan.

      2)I don't think Klopp can be held responsible for how people choose to interpret his statement, to be fair.
      I took it to mean one thing, and others took it to mean something else.
      Like all top people these days, he will have a philosophy that can be easily put into a Mission Statement; I took it to mean that his Mission Statement (whatever it is) is Plan A, and there's no need to deviate from it.
      On top of that, he's clearly getting pissed off with all the "what about Plan B" stuff that Journo's throw at him constantly.
      Maybe he should sit down and explain, but on the flip side, why should he? Plan A (as far as I can see) for Klopp is about succeeding, and everything else is a tool to reach that goal.

      No doubt there are players who could improve the squad, but Klopps teams have always been more than the sum of their parts; it's crucial to his philosophy that he gets not only the talent, but also the mentality, and that's a lot harder to find.
      We also have no idea what the club are doing as far as recruitment goes, and the feeding frenzy over Keita was largely driven by Leipzig, who it appeared to me, did it for publicity.
      No one really knew if we were in for VvD or not, until Saints had a pop at us for tapping up.
      My point is that the club tend to keep things very quiet when it comes to transfers these days, so until the window closes, I have to assume that we are pursuing other options, and hope that we will sign them.
      We don't need a lot, despite what some may tell you, but we definitely need more cover, at the very least.

       
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13368: Aug 15, 2017 06:38:08 pm
      The problem with this is the fact you earlier said he was a figurehead only there to deflect criticism from Henry.

      But now they're all the same.
      classic  :lmao:
      It is funny how you, and some here can take away what you want to see instead of what is said....
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13369: Aug 15, 2017 07:35:31 pm
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13370: Aug 15, 2017 10:05:13 pm
      Yup, believe it or not, we used to have a laugh on here

      Ahhh those were the days, I used to get banned and a lot of warnings back then too :D
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13371: Aug 15, 2017 10:14:23 pm
      Got us trying to defend set pieces with a high line like Spurs do. Only problem is, we don't have the defensive quality they have.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13372: Aug 15, 2017 10:40:50 pm
      Just saw Jürgen's post match presses, it does worry me when he says he thought we defended well. I thought we were terrible defensively. The two centre halves got bullied, there were huge gaps between our CBS and FBs and had their final ball been a little bit better they would have scored a couple more. We looked shaky at set pieces again and we're lucky they didn't score from that free header a few minutes from the end. And with three (what I would class as) defensive midfielders in the middle I would have expected us to look far more solid and to have a better shape defensively than we did have.
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13373: Aug 15, 2017 10:43:45 pm
      Just saw Jürgen's post match presses, it does worry me when he says he thought we defended well. I thought we were terrible defensively. The two centre halves got bullied, there were huge gaps between our CBS and FBs and had their final ball been a little bit better they would have scored a couple more. We looked shaky at set pieces again and we're lucky they didn't score from that free header a few minutes from the end. And with three (what I would class as) defensive midfielders in the middle I would have expected us to look far more solid and to have a better shape defensively than we did have.

      Even if  he thinks we defended poorly he's hardly going to say so in a press conference
      Scottbot
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13374: Aug 15, 2017 11:40:27 pm
      Even if  he thinks we defended poorly he's hardly going to say so in a press conference

      You might be right but he has always been fairly candid in his interviews, he isn't one to stick the boot into individual players but if there are things the lads haven't done well he's not afraid to bring it up.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13375: Aug 16, 2017 01:22:26 am
      You might be right but he has always been fairly candid in his interviews, he isn't one to stick the boot into individual players but if there are things the lads haven't done well he's not afraid to bring it up.

      Agreed but when they're taking it from all sides, fans and media sometimes it's a nice change for them to hear the manager defend them, even if they know and we do that it's a bluff.

      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13376: Aug 16, 2017 01:53:08 am
      http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/brilliant-way-Jürgen-klopp-handled-10994847

      Interesting article that quotes Sahin and his journey from Dortmund-Madrid-LFC-Dortmund. Like the way Jürgen handled it and maybe a little insight into a conversation he's had with Coutinho.
      JC16
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13377: Aug 16, 2017 04:49:32 am
      Got us trying to defend set pieces with a high line like Spurs do. Only problem is, we don't have the defensive quality they have.
      The post match commentary here in the states brought up an interesting point.

      Even if we sign VVD, it's not going to change much as to how we defend set pieces.

      It's the tactics that are hurting us.
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13378: Aug 16, 2017 08:50:05 am

      It's the tactics that are hurting us.


      Not sure quite agree with that. Spurs use that tactic on set pieces and it works really well for them. The tactics not the problem, it's the lack of defensive quality to implement it.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13379: Aug 16, 2017 08:57:25 am
      The post match commentary here in the states brought up an interesting point.

      Even if we sign VVD, it's not going to change much as to how we defend set pieces.

      It's the tactics that are hurting us.


      We actually defended set pieces pretty well for the 2nd half of last season so I'm not sure how and why we appear to have regressed so much over pre-season. Certainly a big dominant centre-half like VVD would be a big help in this area.
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13380: Aug 16, 2017 09:59:17 am
      I know but back then even your bans and warnings were funny.

      Yeh was a good laugh back then, quippy one liners and innuendo was the order of the day, camaraderie dropped off as Rep, Racer etc vacated to twitter.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13381: Aug 16, 2017 10:38:44 am
      The post match commentary here in the states brought up an interesting point.

      Even if we sign VVD, it's not going to change much as to how we defend set pieces.

      It's the tactics that are hurting us.
      It's like saying, Messi is not world class... it's Barcelona's tactics.
      Put Origi there and it makes no difference?... :f_tongueincheek:
      I don't watch post match commentary, from the sounds of it, it is still drivel.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13382: Aug 16, 2017 12:38:07 pm
      I really don't know how you did it with the Benny Hill defence boss but you got a result last night, so well done.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13383: Aug 16, 2017 01:20:27 pm
      Ahhh those were the days, I used to get banned and a lot of warnings back then too :D


      Yeh was a good laugh back then, quippy one liners and innuendo was the order of the day, camaraderie dropped off as Rep, Racer etc vacated to twitter.



      Could call people 'cu*ts' without everyone getting too touchy and getting their knickers in a twist.

      Getting called a 'c**t' when I used to see a few other people off here in the cabbage, ah good times!!
      Brian78
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13384: Aug 16, 2017 01:21:35 pm
      Im starting to wonder if 1 or 2 chinks are coming to light with the boss.

      We know hes failed to sort out our issues at the back. And honestly the issues could be ironed out with coaching not millions of pound.

      But last night i spotted another issue with the coaching staff. I said to my lad witb about 10 to go that Mane was gone. His legs were empty. Moments later he couldnt adjust to a misplaced pass. A slightly misplaced pass. From the resulting throw they worked the goal. How can the manager and assistants not spot that and see a change was needed? 

      At 2 nil in Eurppe why did we not tighten up and see it out? Maybe im overthinking it?  But im always amazed when managers cant see things like that
      Brian78
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13385: Aug 16, 2017 01:23:36 pm


      Could call people 'cu*ts' without everyone getting too touchy and getting their knickers in a twist.

      Getting called a 'c**t' when I used to see a few other people off here in the cabbage, ah good times!!

      Indeed. Good times

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