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      Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager

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      Scotia
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13616: Sep 15, 2017 03:54:35 pm
      100% mate.

      Its easy to forget that Andy already has a lot of PL experience Scotia and he has shown he is very good in attack so what does he need "blooding" in... our high-end defending? 😯😂


      International experience too mate - something I don't see Bertie getting (again) anytime soon (meaning level he's playing at rather than a Scotland / Spain comparison).

      There was a funny moment during 2nd half on Wednesday.....

      Bertie was awol and the bold Andy was warming up and going buck mental at him to get back goalside etc......basically telling him where he should be.

      It must be bewildering to him.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13617: Sep 15, 2017 04:09:14 pm
      100% mate.

      Its easy to forget that Andy already has a lot of PL experience Scotia and he has shown he is very good in attack so what does he need "blooding" in... our high-end defending? 😯😂

      Dej hasn't tutored him to master the fresh air swipe in the 6-yard box yet. Give it time.

      Ribapuru
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13618: Sep 15, 2017 04:26:29 pm
      For me you sum up the difference like this......

      One is a fine young thinking footballer who also happens to be an athlete.

      One is an fine young athlete who happens to think he's a footballer......
      Moreno is probably better at attacking than defending, I am not sure why he is a LB.
      stuey
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13619: Sep 15, 2017 04:52:04 pm
      Moreno is probably better at attacking than defending, I am not sure why he is a LB.

      Cos we haven't got a left-back worth fielding, in spite of the world, his wife and Jürgen Klopp knowing that shortcoming is costing us games.
      Danzel
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13620: Sep 15, 2017 04:57:33 pm
      I was of the mind he was blooding the boy in gently - but it's going on too long.

      Despite the rave reviews it's as plain as the nose on Jimmy Durante's nose that Bertie is part of the problem at the back. He has the positional awareness / discipline of a kitten in a glitter factory.

      I get that you rate Andy very highly, but the Moreno 'lacks positional awareness' line is quickly growing old. You are aware of the fact that we play a zonal marking system rather than a man marking system, are you? If of course you're looking at Moreno from the perspective of a man marking system, then yes, the lad looks all over the place from time to time. If however you look at it with the idea of zonal marking, his positioning has improved massively and you can see him clearly checking his surroundings more often. His positioning might be off sometimes, but then again, every player's positioning will be off a few times during 90 minutes of football.

      Let's look at it like this: IF Moreno's positioning is constantly wrong, why is Klopp not yelling at him all the time anymore like he was at the beginning when he played Moreno? I can remember clearly Klopp giving him an earful lots of times at the start of his Liverpool career. IF Moreno's positioning is constantly wrong, why does Klopp play him in our most important games? IF Moreno's positioning is constantly wrong, why doesn't your highly rated Robertson get in ahead of him? Or why doesn't Milner anymore?

      Maybe, just maybe, he's doing exactly what Klopp is asking from him? Maybe he is following Klopp's instructions? Or perhaps, God forbid, his positioning has actually improved? As it stands, he's the least of our problems in the back 5.

      Robertson will make a fine fullback and he will get games, but there's no evidence whatsoever that he's a better fullback than Moreno is on current form. He hasn't been here for too long and Klopp expects his players to be 100% fit to play his game. He'll start against Burnley I'm sure and probably in the League Cup against Leicester too.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13621: Sep 15, 2017 05:15:28 pm
      I get that you rate Andy very highly, but the Moreno 'lacks positional awareness' line is quickly growing old. You are aware of the fact that we play a zonal marking system rather than a man marking system, are you? If of course you're looking at Moreno from the perspective of a man marking system, then yes, the lad looks all over the place from time to time. If however you look at it with the idea of zonal marking, his positioning has improved massively and you can see him clearly checking his surroundings more often. His positioning might be off sometimes, but then again, every player's positioning will be off a few times during 90 minutes of football.

      Let's look at it like this: IF Moreno's positioning is constantly wrong, why is Klopp not yelling at him all the time anymore like he was at the beginning when he played Moreno? I can remember clearly Klopp giving him an earful lots of times at the start of his Liverpool career. IF Moreno's positioning is constantly wrong, why does Klopp play him in our most important games? IF Moreno's positioning is constantly wrong, why doesn't your highly rated Robertson get in ahead of him? Or why doesn't Milner anymore?

      Maybe, just maybe, he's doing exactly what Klopp is asking from him? Maybe he is following Klopp's instructions? Or perhaps, God forbid, his positioning has actually improved? As it stands, he's the least of our problems in the back 5.

      Robertson will make a fine fullback and he will get games, but there's no evidence whatsoever that he's a better fullback than Moreno is on current form. He hasn't been here for too long and Klopp expects his players to be 100% fit to play his game. He'll start against Burnley I'm sure and probably in the League Cup against Leicester too.

      Yes I'm a fan of the lad and I make no apology for that but I'm a red of 40yrs standing and that's my priority - have no fear ;)

      I've coached football for a long time mate - including as part of the youth club Andy came through - zonal is nothing new and Bertie is arguably a bigger disaster zonally than he would be man for man........At least man for man / conventional it's only one man slipped - when you're awol consistently zonally the whole team is out of shape.

      No matter how you construct it he is a liability defensively. Whether you rate him higher than Robertson is your opinion but please don't bend the truth to support an opinion.

      I see the boss berating him and the rest of the defence in most games.

      He's as much a problem as any part of the defence - in reality - arguably greater as he contributes to the strain on the cbs (on top of the high press).

      To claim otherwise is folly and revisionist.

      Let's hope one way or another we sort it out soon because that's what matters, right?
      « Last Edit: Sep 15, 2017 05:30:50 pm by Scotia »
      Danzel
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13622: Sep 15, 2017 06:12:39 pm
      Yes I'm a fan of the lad and I make no apology for that but I'm a red of 40yrs standing and that's my priority - have no fear ;)

      I've coached football for a long time mate - including as part of the youth club Andy came through - zonal is nothing new and Bertie is arguably a bigger disaster zonally than he would be man for man........At least man for man / conventional it's only one man slipped - when you're awol consistently zonally the whole team is out of shape.

      No matter how you construct it he is a liability defensively. Whether you rate him higher than Robertson is your opinion but please don't bend the truth to support an opinion.

      I see the boss berating him and the rest of the defence in most games.

      He's as much a problem as any part of the defence - in reality - arguably greater as he contributes to the strain on the cbs (on top of the high press).

      To claim otherwise is folly and revisionist.

      Let's hope one way or another we sort it out soon because that's what matters, right?

      Wouldn't want any apology mate! We all support the mighty Reds, we all want our club to be succesful and we all have personal favourites. Moreno isn't a personal favourite of mine, though I think he's genuinely a honest, hard working lad who didn't make a fuss out of being benched for a whole season and has done well (in my opinion) so far this season. I'd like him to succeed here, just like I'd like any other player we have to succeed.

      I see why you rate Andy, he has a peach of a left foot and is good going forward. His crossing is a level above Moreno's, which is why I think he'll play most, if not all, the games against teams that sit deep / bottom half of the table teams. We are yet to see how he does in a high tempo, open game, where he will be exposed a lot more than he's used to.

      Klopp clearly thinks he's not ready for that yet (for whichever reason, we don't know why) and prefers Moreno over everyone else we have that can play as a LB. That's a fact, not me trying to bend anything. Klopp trusts him enough to play all our big games. If Moreno had really played as bad as you suggest he did, wouldn't we have seen either Andy or Milner already? This makes me believe that Klopp is happy so far with his performances and that Moreno is doing what Klopp expects him to do.

      If you look at all the goals we've conceded this season from open play, the majority of them have come from our right side. Both Sevilla's goals, 2 out of 3 Hoffenheim goals, 2 City goals (from the top of my head), those are facts, which is why I said Moreno is the least of our problems in the back 5.

      But as you say, let's hope we sort it out soon because indeed, that's what matters.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13623: Sep 15, 2017 07:00:19 pm
      Wouldn't want any apology mate! We all support the mighty Reds, we all want our club to be succesful and we all have personal favourites. Moreno isn't a personal favourite of mine, though I think he's genuinely a honest, hard working lad who didn't make a fuss out of being benched for a whole season and has done well (in my opinion) so far this season. I'd like him to succeed here, just like I'd like any other player we have to succeed.

      I see why you rate Andy, he has a peach of a left foot and is good going forward. His crossing is a level above Moreno's, which is why I think he'll play most, if not all, the games against teams that sit deep / bottom half of the table teams. We are yet to see how he does in a high tempo, open game, where he will be exposed a lot more than he's used to.

      Klopp clearly thinks he's not ready for that yet (for whichever reason, we don't know why) and prefers Moreno over everyone else we have that can play as a LB. That's a fact, not me trying to bend anything. Klopp trusts him enough to play all our big games. If Moreno had really played as bad as you suggest he did, wouldn't we have seen either Andy or Milner already? This makes me believe that Klopp is happy so far with his performances and that Moreno is doing what Klopp expects him to do.

      If you look at all the goals we've conceded this season from open play, the majority of them have come from our right side. Both Sevilla's goals, 2 out of 3 Hoffenheim goals, 2 City goals (from the top of my head), those are facts, which is why I said Moreno is the least of our problems in the back 5.

      But as you say, let's hope we sort it out soon because indeed, that's what matters.

      We all have our biases Danzel - conscious and unconscious- if we didn't there'd only be public service tv.

      Clearly at the moment Jürgen thinks he's the best choice.

      What did I say about bias?  :f_tongueincheek:
      « Last Edit: Sep 16, 2017 10:32:43 am by Scotia »
      bmck
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13624: Sep 15, 2017 07:07:29 pm
      Still scratching my head re. Jürgen and the defense. We've started this season in familiar fashion ... you just don't know what to expect. Whether will walk a match, or struggle. Tomorrow, we might whop this crowd, or they could sit back and hit us on the break. We haven't been consistent enough to be confident about how we'll play.

      Don't agree with him on the keeper thing, that we have 2 that are good so should get equal chances. First, on form, we don't have two keepers that are good, imo Karius is poor, and Migs is slightly better.  Would prefer we pick one, and let them build a relationship with the defense, and stick with that guy until multiple mistakes are made or injury happens, and then the other guy steps in. The normal way.

      Moreno will look good going forward, but he still can't defend for sh*te, his positioning is terrible. We've been there, done that. The fact that Jürgen continues to pick him is worrying from the point of view of trying to tighten up, and make the defense more solid. OK, maybe at home against a bus parker. Maybe. But then why did we buy Robertson?

      Don't think we have world class CBs that can't be improved on in the transfer market. That was just bonkers, and if he came out with much more like that, would damage his credibility (the odd mad statement is OK, but need to keep a lid on them). If we're still in the running in lots of comps come Jan, wonder would he consider breaking his Jan transfer strike, another thing that's hard to understand.

      We didn't buy a proper DM, but could we convert one of the existing 3 into one?, try to make him more disciplined, to really sit, try to communicate and work better with the CBs (who don't seem to communicate much at all). Tbh, not sure that's possible, or even if Jürgen wants a traditional DM.

      Would like to see us do SOMETHING. What we're doing now is not working. Or different to what we've done before. Should we go 3 CBs? Get Milner back at LB? Have someone to do proper DM role? Have the FBs sit/tuck in more, rather than focus on bombing forward? Generally, have the defense focus more on defending, less on the next break forward.

      Could be a tough season if we don't sort something out back there.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13625: Sep 15, 2017 08:20:09 pm
      International experience too mate - something I don't see Bertie getting (again) anytime soon (meaning level he's playing at rather than a Scotland / Spain comparison).

      There was a funny moment during 2nd half on Wednesday.....

      Bertie was awol and the bold Andy was warming up and going buck mental at him to get back goalside etc......basically telling him where he should be.

      It must be bewildering to him.

      Playing an international for Scotland and not getting a game for Spain equate to similar experiences.

      Joking aside, I'm bamboozled as to how Bertie was frozen out for an entire year then walks back in like a new signing.

      He hasn't changed or turned into Roberto Carlos over night. Still rash in the challenge and was close IMO to getting a red the other night. Though personally, I think our RB, and CB, have struggled a lot more than Berto with their game recently. Not sure if that is a worry or not.

      At this moment in time it would probably be a blessing in disguise Robinson sits this out because our defence has a habit of lowering stock in individuals, and until there is a bit of leadership and organisation going on back there with competency to boot - it could make the most enthused talent into a nervous wreck.
      « Last Edit: Sep 15, 2017 08:24:42 pm by Beerbelly »
      Scotia
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13626: Sep 15, 2017 08:25:45 pm
      Playing an international for Scotland and not getting a game for Spain equate to similar experiences.

      Joking aside, I'm bamboozled as to how Bertie was frozen out for an entire year then walks back in like a new signing.

      He hasn't changed or turned into Roberto Carlos over night. Still rash in the challenge and was close IMO to getting a red.

      At this moment in time it would probably be a blessing in disguise Robinson sits this out because our defence has a habit of lowering stock in individuals, and until there is a bit of leadership and organisation going on back there with competency to boot - it could the most enthused talent into a nervous wreck.

      That's why I made the caveat that I meant level of opposition rather than ease of cap.......the joke's not lost on me ;)

      That said (as I've mentioned in other threads) in keeping with Scottish footballing luck we just happen to have 2 outstanding young players coming through just now.........both left feckin' backs!

      I don't see any material improvement in Alberto defensively........and I stuck with him longer than most. Him and Lovren on the left half of our defence totally imbalance the team.........

      More of an extended debate re Bertie / Robbo that I intended Jürgen's thread......my only point was that whereas in the middle and on the right "you pays your money and takes your choice" I think Robbo is an upgrade all day long.

      Shame the boss doesn't.
      « Last Edit: Sep 15, 2017 08:32:51 pm by Scotia »
      Don77
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13627: Sep 15, 2017 09:53:07 pm
      https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/908079515523534849

      Interesting one that, putting the emphasis on others to help those that let their concentration drop. Is he basically asking for others to say "wake the f**k, up" as I'd look at it, or just referring to coaching them better?

      He is on another planet.

      That defence will cost him his job. The decision to sit on our backsides all summer and not improve the area of the team that is killing us was pathetic.

      Lucas was our only competent DM and he was sold.

      The protection in front of that dreadful back 4 and goalkeeper is non existant ... but the front 3 is great eh.

      Vvd would not have fixed our issues anyway as they are not organised ... they are not a unit as they do not work hard enough. They are poorly coached.

      We will win nothing .... sad to say it but we have too many weaknesses. Great going forward .... but it will always be undermined the rest of the team.

      Wake up Jürgen or prepare to eventually face the consequences.

      Tactically i expect more. He was clueless at city and had no plan b.

      With what he has in his squad i feel he has to change to a 4231 ... and sit 2 to protect right in front of the back 4. Reign in his full backs and rely on coutinho infront of the midfield 2 and also the front 3 to get the job done.

      Then how about working hard and organising us from set pieces and balls into the box.

      We are simply too easy to score against.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13628: Sep 15, 2017 10:21:31 pm

      I disagree, the goals we conceded were nothing to do with quality and totally about concentration. Does Lovren have the quality to kick a football, clearly he does, the fact he didn't was far more down to concentration than anything else.

      Does Can have the ability to cover for Henderson when he decides to leave the space, of course he does and it was the fact he wasn't switched on at this moment rather than talent/quality which cost us. So I think the boss is absolutely spot on there, but the problem is that this concentration lapse isn't a one off and isn't a simple fix going on both Can and Lovren's past history.

      That defence will cost him his job. The decision to sit on our backsides all summer and not improve the area of the team that is killing us was pathetic.

      Sitting on our hands is a little too far as we did buy Robertson and we also clearly made an approach (albeit illegal) for VvD. I do agree that it's far more likely the defence will cost him the job than the attack though, that much seems obvious.

      Lucas was our only competent DM and he was sold.

      The protection in front of that dreadful back 4 and goalkeeper is non existant ... but the front 3 is great eh.

      Agreed and it looks a mistake in my book at the moment.

      Vvd would not have fixed our issues anyway as they are not organised ... they are not a unit as they do not work hard enough. They are poorly coached.

      I'm not a VvD expert but he is Saint's captain and that's what we need, a leader. Someone who communicates and more than anything someone who dominates opposition players. Our players are too passive, from what I've seen of VvD he does dominate players and communicate so to me it's a good choice if you can get him, which we couldn't. Getting nobody is definitely going to be the on going theme until January, that was clear the moment the window shut to be fair.

      We will win nothing .... sad to say it but we have too many weaknesses. Great going forward .... but it will always be undermined the rest of the team.

      I actually think we have less weaknesses than people are crying about. Ignore City for a moment and we've been ahead in all our matches only to be sucker punched against Watford and Sevilla. To me there's an overreaction to how 'bad' we are at the moment and someone posted how teams get on with 10 men against better teams and it didn't look good for anyone, so to lose Mane that early was always going to end in a loss imo. Sure 5-0 looks awful and it was an awful result but judging it on the 11v11 part of the game and I thought we had the better of it and given our record against the top 6 aside from that I'm willing to bet that it was an abnormality due to the 10 men more than anything else.

      As for winning nothing, I agree our consistency isn't there and the players we have (Henderson/Can/Lovren/Klavan/Gini especially) are far too consistent with their inconsistencies to expect that to change any time soon. I believe we need Keita and VvD before we truly become title winners and not just contenders. Cup competitions are a bit of an oddity, who knows in the FA and League cup, they may fall on our good days and we'll get one but the CL we simply don't have the quality yet to beat a Bayern/Real/PSG.

      Wake up Jürgen or prepare to eventually face the consequences.

      Any need for threats, we've shown clear progress year on year and it's a little early to see where we are right now. In my opinion without Coutinho and Lallana we've still managed to look a real force going forward and expect that only to improve. Defensively there's work to do, as everyone can see.

      Tactically i expect more. He was clueless at city and had no plan b.

      If you want to use City as a benchmark, watch the first 37 mins or whatever before Mane goes off, if you want to judge our coach on 1 game when we were down to 10 men then go for it, but that's brainless imo. You've got countless other matches to judge him on and so far he's doing a fine job as all the results will show.

      With what he has in his squad i feel he has to change to a 4231 ... and sit 2 to protect right in front of the back 4. Reign in his full backs and rely on coutinho infront of the midfield 2 and also the front 3 to get the job done.

      Could be right, but you're asking for our weakest part to become our strongest. For 1 and 2 goals to get the job done, right now I disagree, I think our best bet is meet fire with fire as our fire is far stronger. Sitting in a 4-2-3-1 with Henderson and Can as the cover just makes us look a poor side imo. We have bags of quality in this team that we use well most of the time, but we have weaknesses and trying to turn your weaknesses into your strengths while weakening your own strengths seems counterproductive to me.

      Then how about working hard and organising us from set pieces and balls into the box.

      It's been our achilles heel for the longest time and I actually do think we've become much better at the first ball, but the second and third we do concede far too many from.

      We are simply too easy to score against.

      Strange one this, because although we have conceded quite a few goals I don't think this is the case when we talk about the volume of chances we give away. However, we do concede far too high a proportion of the chances that are created against us and if that's what you mean then it's an absolute fact.

      Edit: Top interview from the boss here if you want him to explain some of the above:

      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/defiant-Jürgen-klopp-hits-back-13628060?service=responsive
      « Last Edit: Sep 15, 2017 10:40:49 pm by KopiteLuke »
      AussieRed
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13629: Sep 16, 2017 01:23:00 am
      I love this Man. I want him to be our Manager for years to come and lead us to many Titles, but have a feeling he's going to come undone here if he keeps buying attackers and midfielders and doesn't start concentrating more on our sh*t defence.

      Be a F***ing shame for him to either be sacked or for more and more fans to get on his back because he's too stubborn to do anything about our defensive inabilities.
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13630: Sep 16, 2017 01:23:40 am
      I love this Man. I want him to be our Manager for years to come and lead us to many Titles, but have a feeling he's going to come undone here if he keeps buying attackers and midfielders and doesn't start concentrating more on our sh*t defence.

      Be a f**king shame for him to either be sacked or for more and more fans to get on his back because he's too stubborn to do anything about our defensive inabilities.

      This.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13631: Sep 16, 2017 01:53:30 am
      I love this Man. I want him to be our Manager for years to come and lead us to many Titles, but have a feeling he's going to come undone here if he keeps buying attackers and midfielders and doesn't start concentrating more on our sh*t defence.

      Be a f**king shame for him to either be sacked or for more and more fans to get on his back because he's too stubborn to do anything about our defensive inabilities.

      I get your point Aussie and ultimately there will come a time when people say "enough" but in my opinion we shouldn't even be on the first step towards uttering that phrase and I'll explain why.

      In Brendan's nearly season we were scintillating in attack and pretty hopeless in defence, but this was lauded as a great achievement and as close as we've come in blah blah blah. People suggested it was down to certain players rather than the manager why we got there but whatever side of that debate you sit you can't argue that we all enjoyed it thoroughly, the chase, the almost, ok ultimately agonising defeat but it was fun and how football 'should' be played.

      Now Brendan took that team and that style and threw it out of the window, turning scintillating football in tired old lump and hope footy, with Benteke isolated, Firmino sidelined and frankly the most pathetic transfer situation I've ever witnessed.

      So what has changed and how have we progressed? We've gone to two finals, a semi-final, re-established ourselves in the CL and just taken a point off our hardest opponents in the group when we really should have won. We've gone from dour football to heavy metal football but rather than revel in the quality of our attacking play we're all moping around like it's doomed because the boss hasn't solved the defensive woes.

      He's re-established our brand of footy to, quite frankly, the most entertaining to watch in the league. We have a transfer system in place that clearly backs the boss, targets were identified by him and the targets he wanted were pushed for. The lines coming out from FSG and Jürgen are one and the same. A coaching staff that appear like vital cogs in a well oiled machine, the academy producing talent and that talent being given a real chance and a real future at the club. So many things are right yet we focus on the one negative, it's honestly insulting to what he's achieved so far.

      All this talk of "the boss better sort it or his days are numbered" really grates, sure if we were languishing in 8th or 9th and playing football without any sign of getting better but we're not. Back the man, don't let the media and our petty focus on the negative drive the narrative, show appreciation for the positives he's brought to the club rather than act like a spoilt, entitled child (not you, more us in general) who expects the title to be somehow delivered with perfection rather than the odd bump in the road.

      This man is gold dust, appreciate him while he's here because I bet by the time he leaves you'll be gutted he's gone.
      « Last Edit: Sep 16, 2017 02:03:59 am by KopiteLuke »
      MIRO
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13632: Sep 16, 2017 02:52:27 am
      I love this Man. I want him to be our Manager for years to come and lead us to many Titles, but have a feeling he's going to come undone here if he keeps buying attackers and midfielders and doesn't start concentrating more on our sh*t defence.

      Be a f**king shame for him to either be sacked or for more and more fans to get on his back because he's too stubborn to do anything about our defensive inabilities.

      I wanted Rodgers gone.

      I wanted this guy in.

      There is no other Premier League Manager I would swap him for.

      However ...... we cant keep shipping goals like a sieve. It doesn't work that way.

      Danzel
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13633: Sep 16, 2017 04:28:02 am
      I get your point Aussie and ultimately there will come a time when people say "enough" but in my opinion we shouldn't even be on the first step towards uttering that phrase and I'll explain why.

      In Brendan's nearly season we were scintillating in attack and pretty hopeless in defence, but this was lauded as a great achievement and as close as we've come in blah blah blah. People suggested it was down to certain players rather than the manager why we got there but whatever side of that debate you sit you can't argue that we all enjoyed it thoroughly, the chase, the almost, ok ultimately agonising defeat but it was fun and how football 'should' be played.

      Now Brendan took that team and that style and threw it out of the window, turning scintillating football in tired old lump and hope footy, with Benteke isolated, Firmino sidelined and frankly the most pathetic transfer situation I've ever witnessed.

      So what has changed and how have we progressed? We've gone to two finals, a semi-final, re-established ourselves in the CL and just taken a point off our hardest opponents in the group when we really should have won. We've gone from dour football to heavy metal football but rather than revel in the quality of our attacking play we're all moping around like it's doomed because the boss hasn't solved the defensive woes.

      He's re-established our brand of footy to, quite frankly, the most entertaining to watch in the league. We have a transfer system in place that clearly backs the boss, targets were identified by him and the targets he wanted were pushed for. The lines coming out from FSG and Jürgen are one and the same. A coaching staff that appear like vital cogs in a well oiled machine, the academy producing talent and that talent being given a real chance and a real future at the club. So many things are right yet we focus on the one negative, it's honestly insulting to what he's achieved so far.

      All this talk of "the boss better sort it or his days are numbered" really grates, sure if we were languishing in 8th or 9th and playing football without any sign of getting better but we're not. Back the man, don't let the media and our petty focus on the negative drive the narrative, show appreciation for the positives he's brought to the club rather than act like a spoilt, entitled child (not you, more us in general) who expects the title to be somehow delivered with perfection rather than the odd bump in the road.

      This man is gold dust, appreciate him while he's here because I bet by the time he leaves you'll be gutted he's gone.

      People seem to forget all too easily how far we've come since Klopp took over from Rodgers. There was a picture posted recently of the team that was playing the Real Madrid game. Just compare the two squads. Our current one is full of young, talented, quality players. It's a work in progress and we're getting awfully close to the finished product. Sadly enough, the words 'patience' and 'time' aren't words most people want to hear anymore.

      Klopp is here to build something and he started two years ago, all the way down from the academy up to the coaching staff. He brought in some of the world's best dietitians, physical coaches, ... The results are there for everyone to see: we're one of the fittest teams I've ever seen. He only just started his second full season here, bringing us back to the CL in his first full season. That alone, given the squad he had and the injuries he had to deal with, is a bloody miracle. Has he used the transfer windows to his full advantage? Possibly not. Though seeing as he's here for the longterm, I'd rather him wait and get the player he wants than bring in a short term solution. That solves nothing long term.

      The only thing missing from the current team, is its spine and due to different reasons and circumstances, he is yet to bring in the players for his spine. Van Dijk and Keita would make a massive difference to the stability of the team. Looking at a spine of Karius (yes, I believe he'll be a good goalkeeper) - Van Dijk - Keita - Firmino is pretty promising. Surround them with quality in the likes of Lallana, Mane, Salah, Matip, Coutinho, ... And those are the makings of a brilliant team.

      I remember being laughed out of the room for suggesting it wasn't as easy as it seems to improve on Lovren for example. Yet Klopp says exactly that and even admits looking at players several posters on here thought could do the job. Apparently, countless of hours watching them made him decide otherwise. It was a good interview and it shows the kind of man he is. It's sad that most fans treat players as if they were numbers these days. Luckily enough, he does see them as humans, humans who can improve by training them. I believe in that process.

      And f**k me, Klopp doesn't know how to set up a defence? Our team is one of the best around at defending as a unit. We're one of the best teams around in keeping the opposition out of our own box, in limiting the amount of shots they have. Do we concede too many goals from the shots we do allow? We sure do. That is not down to the system we're playing though, as Klopp says and Luke has pointed out  a few times before, it's down to these things:

      1. Communication
      2. Concentration
      3. Tracking runners

      Are these things down to the system? They're small mistakes by individuals. Was De Boer at fault because Lee wasn't concentrated and gave that bad backpass? Is Klopp at fault, is his system at fault because Lovren misses a clearance? All these things, the mistakes our players make, are down to these things. A few examples:

      Watford's second goal: switch off, don't track the runner (Henderson and Can)
      Watford's third goal: Wijnaldum fails to clear it
      Hoffenheim away goal: Trent switches off and doesn't play to the whistle
      Hoffenheim home first goal: Poor pass by Henderson, everyone out of position
      Sevilla first goal: Lovren fails to clear it
      Sevilla second goal: Can switches off and doesn't track the runner

      Those are just a few examples. They have nothing to do with the system or Klopp being able to set up a defence. They are individual mistakes, mistakes that can be avoided by training and work on the training pitch. Our team's average age is also very young, people also seem to forget that. They still have a few years to go before most of them reach peak fitness and age. We're going to see many more mistakes this season, but I don't really mind. Klopp will keep improving us and the players.

      The fact that some idiots are already coming out with "he has to do this, he has to improve that, bla bla bla or he'll be gone" is absolutely ridiculous. The day that the mass gets the upper hand and manages to get Klopp out, will be the day I stop believing.

      Oh and one more thing, 99% of the pundits should shut their f**king mouth, they haven't got a clue what they're on about and are still stuck in the 90's and 00's. Times have changed, football has changed. They can f**k off.
      « Last Edit: Sep 16, 2017 04:37:50 am by Danzel »
      Don77
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13634: Sep 16, 2017 07:06:38 am
      I disagree, the goals we conceded were nothing to do with quality and totally about concentration. Does Lovren have the quality to kick a football, clearly he does, the fact he didn't was far more down to concentration than anything else.

      Does Can have the ability to cover for Henderson when he decides to leave the space, of course he does and it was the fact he wasn't switched on at this moment rather than talent/quality which cost us. So I think the boss is absolutely spot on there, but the problem is that this concentration lapse isn't a one off and isn't a simple fix going on both Can and Lovren's past history.

      Sitting on our hands is a little too far as we did buy Robertson and we also clearly made an approach (albeit illegal) for VvD. I do agree that it's far more likely the defence will cost him the job than the attack though, that much seems obvious.

      Agreed and it looks a mistake in my book at the moment.

      I'm not a VvD expert but he is Saint's captain and that's what we need, a leader. Someone who communicates and more than anything someone who dominates opposition players. Our players are too passive, from what I've seen of VvD he does dominate players and communicate so to me it's a good choice if you can get him, which we couldn't. Getting nobody is definitely going to be the on going theme until January, that was clear the moment the window shut to be fair.

      I actually think we have less weaknesses than people are crying about. Ignore City for a moment and we've been ahead in all our matches only to be sucker punched against Watford and Sevilla. To me there's an overreaction to how 'bad' we are at the moment and someone posted how teams get on with 10 men against better teams and it didn't look good for anyone, so to lose Mane that early was always going to end in a loss imo. Sure 5-0 looks awful and it was an awful result but judging it on the 11v11 part of the game and I thought we had the better of it and given our record against the top 6 aside from that I'm willing to bet that it was an abnormality due to the 10 men more than anything else.

      As for winning nothing, I agree our consistency isn't there and the players we have (Henderson/Can/Lovren/Klavan/Gini especially) are far too consistent with their inconsistencies to expect that to change any time soon. I believe we need Keita and VvD before we truly become title winners and not just contenders. Cup competitions are a bit of an oddity, who knows in the FA and League cup, they may fall on our good days and we'll get one but the CL we simply don't have the quality yet to beat a Bayern/Real/PSG.

      Any need for threats, we've shown clear progress year on year and it's a little early to see where we are right now. In my opinion without Coutinho and Lallana we've still managed to look a real force going forward and expect that only to improve. Defensively there's work to do, as everyone can see.

      If you want to use City as a benchmark, watch the first 37 mins or whatever before Mane goes off, if you want to judge our coach on 1 game when we were down to 10 men then go for it, but that's brainless imo. You've got countless other matches to judge him on and so far he's doing a fine job as all the results will show.

      Could be right, but you're asking for our weakest part to become our strongest. For 1 and 2 goals to get the job done, right now I disagree, I think our best bet is meet fire with fire as our fire is far stronger. Sitting in a 4-2-3-1 with Henderson and Can as the cover just makes us look a poor side imo. We have bags of quality in this team that we use well most of the time, but we have weaknesses and trying to turn your weaknesses into your strengths while weakening your own strengths seems counterproductive to me.

      It's been our achilles heel for the longest time and I actually do think we've become much better at the first ball, but the second and third we do concede far too many from.

      Strange one this, because although we have conceded quite a few goals I don't think this is the case when we talk about the volume of chances we give away. However, we do concede far too high a proportion of the chances that are created against us and if that's what you mean then it's an absolute fact.

      Edit: Top interview from the boss here if you want him to explain some of the above:

      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/defiant-Jürgen-klopp-hits-back-13628060?service=responsive

      I disagree mate ... going to a 4231 is a slight tactical switch to give us abit more protection. You still have coutinho infront of the midfield  2 and he can supply your regular front 3 (still potent) ... you still have your full backs to attack at the right time ... and you have abit more cover ... seems like a fair option to me. It would not weaken us ... just make us a little more diciplined ... it might even help us manage games better.

      We did sit on our hands. We did not make 1 bid in 3 months to improve our glaring weakness ... if that is not sitting on your hands then i do not know what is. It is pathetic to suggest as Jürgen has that there is nobody out there who is better than our centre backs. We look pretty stupid to be honest.

      As for city ... he could not change it. If you are giving it in at 2-0 ... you dont get beat 5-0 and if you are trying to stay in the game or get back into it at 2-1 then why take salah off? We did not change tactics ... we just did not dig in and got humiliated.

      As for threats ... what are you talking about? Its pretty clear ... if Jürgen keeps his head in the sand and carries on like he is then we will just keep shipping goals ... 50+ no doubt this season and the consequences will be no title challenge (if that is the aim these days) or the consequences to the 'modern day fan' will be no top 4.

      It seems obvious that Jürgen ... like brendan before him does not like to spend too much time doing defensive work. I expected this season to see a better defensive shape ... a more organised back 4 who operate as a unit. What i am seeing is a back 4 even worse and disorganised than last season.

      The teams who will be in and around us this season all have better goalkeepers and defences ... with potent attacking weapons to boot. We just keep adding turbos to a car with 2 flat rear tyres.

      I like Jürgen ... i want him to do well ... but be needs to start sorting out our weaknesses ... because they are undermining everything. Its just stupid to suggest we will just score 4 or 5 every weeks to win ... a we have more bullets than you mentality ... that is at best stupid and at worst amateurish.

      Just like it is also silly to suggest its 'the way we play' that causes us to concede goal after goal from minimal shots on our goal. Nahhh the personal is not good enough including the goalkeepers he does not seem convinced by. They are not organised well enough nor focussed. All of that comes back to Jürgen ... his coaching and that off his staff. It comes back to his decisions. If lovren as you say missed the ball because he had lost concentration 5 minutes into a big eueopean game ... like he loses concentration every week ... that is down to quality ... or lack of. He just is not good enough ... and he is not the only one.

      Will read the link to Jürgen's interview now.


      « Last Edit: Sep 16, 2017 07:13:02 am by Don77 »
      Brian78
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13635: Sep 16, 2017 08:04:47 am
      Start reading klopps interview. Stopped at the Lovern bit. Does he really believe what hes saying? He wstched Sanchez and Koulibaly 500 million times but they  werent thr answer! Had they been signed and made Loverns mistake we would say give them time they can improve why cant we say the same for Lovern?

      Well Jurgy that might be because hes herre 3 years now and hasnt improved in the slightest. Thats why. And anybody who buys the we watched player x y and z but they werent the answer. Come on lads Koulibaly snd Sanchez or Klavan and Lovern? 

      Ill return to the article to see what other gems await
      Jimsouse67
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13636: Sep 16, 2017 08:31:59 am

      The teams who will be in and around us this season all have better goalkeepers and defences ... with potent attacking weapons to boot. We just keep adding turbos to a car with 2 flat rear tyres.

      I like Jürgen ... i want him to do well ... but be needs to start sorting out our weaknesses ... because they are undermining everything. Its just stupid to suggest we will just score 4 or 5 every weeks to win ... a we have more bullets than you mentality ... that is at best stupid and at worst amateurish.
      Great post mate and loved the car analogy,which also pretty much sums up our gaffers philosophy.
      One thing he must be aware of is any great side ( and we have had plenty ) have been built from the back,a one nil win gets you the same amount of points as 10-0 & it still results in the 3 points.
      The game may have changed a hell of a lot but surely the basics and the fundamentals of the game  have remained the same.
      Alfie2510
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13637: Sep 16, 2017 08:36:04 am
      I love this Man. I want him to be our Manager for years to come and lead us to many Titles, but have a feeling he's going to come undone here if he keeps buying attackers and midfielders and doesn't start concentrating more on our sh*t defence.

      Be a f**king shame for him to either be sacked or for more and more fans to get on his back because he's too stubborn to do anything about our defensive inabilities.


      nothing to do with him being too stubborn he doesn't know how to train a team defensively
      Brian78
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #13638: Sep 16, 2017 08:40:55 am

      nothing to do with him being too stubborn he doesn't know how to train a team defensively

      Which is bizzare for a man who plyed his trade as a defender

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