Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager

Spot on mate. As I've said many times, just because we are surrounded by flip floppery it doesn't mean we have to go there ourselves. I never myself bought into that "total control" nonsense, so therefore it would be silly to now blame all failings on Jürgen.

Yes he gets the credit/blame for all signings which eventually walk through the door, but we can hardly blame him for those that don't, particularly when he's not the one doing the negotiating.

Fortunately for Jürgen the TC signings which he "signed off" (and although I have no evidence I'm assuming Salah and Robertson to be those) are working out pretty well. Jürgen also deserves credit for rejecting the other TC suggestions, the James Ward Prowse's of this world (again no evidence, just going on past records).

So no evidence then and pure speculation BigMick, splendid. Any old stick to bash the owners with will do eh?

Do you really think that the TC blocked Klopp from identifying more than 1 bloody CB that we could possibly buy?

Let's be honest here, deserved or not, Klopp's brought a lot of this on himself with his idiotic comments about how it was impossible to find anyone other than Van Dyke who was better than our current Center Backs. Stating very clearly that he thought we had very talented defenders when all the evidence, not to mention our own eyes, points to the contrary. Had he kept his mouth shut he wouldn't be getting this backlash he's getting now.

I am not able to argue with this point. I completely agree with you on the point that he need not have commented about watching those 500 million videos etc..

But, some very interesting points were posted on why we were hung up on VvD or noone else strategy (and, I totally respect those POVs). Interesting as they are in theory, I am not able to come around the fact that we have no other tall, ball playing center backs who are comfortable with a high line of defense. Add to the fact that we sold Sakho who ticks all these boxes. If the market is so small, why should he/TC sell the very player who is part of that small market? What was that point of no return that made him/TC compromise on that exact weakness that we were supposed to strengthen?

On the point that he repeatedly states that we have talented defenders and he doesn't need any one else, clearly, you don't expect him to say anything else, do you? He is not going to say that Lovren or Klavan is sh*t and that they should be nowhere near the club. When he has not got what he wanted, he is left with what he has and it is better to extract the maximum out of what he has (obviously not happening) rather than complain about what he doesn't have to win.

Wjst

I am not able to argue with this point. I completely agree with you on the point that he need not have commented about watching those 500 million videos etc..

But, some very interesting points were posted on why we were hung up on VvD or noone else strategy (and, I totally respect those POVs). Interesting as they are in theory, I am not able to come around the fact that we have no other tall, ball playing center backs who are comfortable with a high line of defense. Add to the fact that we sold Sakho who ticks all these boxes. If the market is so small, why should he/TC sell the very player who is part of that small market? What was that point of no return that made him/TC compromise on that exact weakness that we were supposed to strengthen?

On the point that he repeatedly states that we have talented defenders and he doesn't need any one else, clearly, you don't expect him to say anything else, do you? He is not going to say that Lovren or Klavan is sh*t and that they should be nowhere near the club. When he has not got what he wanted, he is left with what he has and it is better to extract the maximum out of what he has (obviously not happening) rather than complain about what he doesn't have to win.

What he says to the press/media will differ completely from what he says at Melwood !

YNWA

It can only be his fault in the eyes of anyone who was adamant Jürgen was "In total control of transfers". [Unless those good people have changed their mind and now admit they were wrong, of course 😊].

For the rest of us, those who saw that nothing too much had changed with the TC; Jürgen will not take all the blame. 😎

Spot on mate. As I've said many times, just because we are surrounded by flip floppery it doesn't mean we have to go there ourselves. I never myself bought into that "total control" nonsense, so therefore it would be silly to now blame all failings on Jürgen.

Yes he gets the credit/blame for all signings which eventually walk through the door, but we can hardly blame him for those that don't, particularly when he's not the one doing the negotiating.

Fortunately for Jürgen the TC signings which he "signed off" (and although I have no evidence I'm assuming Salah and Robertson to be those) are working out pretty well. Jürgen also deserves credit for rejecting the other TC suggestions, the James Ward Prowse's of this world (again no evidence, just going on past records).

I've opined a few times on this re signings and the hullabaloo over the last 10 days.

If you believe he's the transfer man then presumably you thought it was his fault in August.

If not and, during the window, instead your ire was pointed at FSG then that shouldn't change re the squad when the footie starts.

You wanna criticise him for the selections he makes from the squad (ie. not the people we haven't signed); team set up or man management........fill your boots.

A board are for life (or it may feel like it) not just a transfer window.

If you believe he's the transfer man then presumably you thought it was his fault in August.

If not and, during the window, instead your ire was pointed at FSG then that shouldn't change re the squad when the footie starts.

Exactly mate, I'm in the second category. Jürgen IMHO was in the unenviable position of having the choice between going in with a dodgy defence, or accepting a TC pick for centre half and centre mid which would have meant he'd have never got his priority targets. I personally would have bitten the bullet on the centre half, but that he didn't IMHO deserves credit. He's no fool ain't this lad and he'll have known that the team was going to suffer in the short term, but he's thinking/hoping it'll be worth it further down the line.

I hope he's right, and until it becomes obvious one way or the other whether or not he is, I'm not going to criticise him 1% for it.

I've opined a few times on this re signings and the hullabaloo over the last 10 days.

If you believe he's the transfer man then presumably you thought it was his fault in August.

If not and, during the window, instead your ire was pointed at FSG then that shouldn't change re the squad when the footie starts.

You wanna criticise him for the selections he makes from the squad (ie. not the people we haven't signed); team set up or man management........fill your boots.

A board are for life (or it may feel like it) not just a transfer window.

Not so Black and White as that.

He has the final say on transfers, so he said.

He struggled to find players better than what we've already got, so he said.

He saw 500 million DVDs of other CB and still couldn't come up with a solution, so he told us.

As somebody mentioned above, when you start propping up the hierarchy and spill that kind of sh*t to the fans, you're leaving yourself wide open by making yourself look complicit.

Not so Black and White as that.

He has the final say on transfers, so he said.

He struggled to find players better than what we've already got, so he said.

He saw 500 million DVDs of other CB and still couldn't come up with a solution, so he told us.

As somebody mentioned above, when you start propping up the hierarchy and spill that kind of sh*t to the fans, you're leaving yourself wide open by making yourself look complicit.

Still seems pretty straightforward to me fella.

Depends whether you believe he was looking freely at the CBs in the ether or at the TC shortlist.

Pays your money and takes your choice - if the former then he's is to blame if the latter then I find it harder to do so.

Noted re comments and in part ageee. If you flip it though I'm not sure though what people really expect him to say re CBs.

"I asked for a thoroughbred,  they said I could choose a donkey so I'll stick with my own ass........."

Not so Black and White as that.

He has the final say on transfers, so he said.

He struggled to find players better than what we've already got, so he said.

He saw 500 million DVDs of other CB and still couldn't come up with a solution, so he told us.

As somebody mentioned above, when you start propping up the hierarchy and spill that kind of sh*t to the fans, you're leaving yourself wide open by making yourself look complicit.

I agree with all that too, Jürgen has effectively been a "bullshitter". The reason that doesn't annoy me though, is that IMHO ALL managers are "bullshitters" and all of them spin the truth in order to suit their agenda.

You and I know mate how the pitchfork crew would have responded to such comments previously. By now they'd be analysing every word of every interview, talking about body language, whether or not he needed a defensive coach, whether or not he's "getting the best" out of certain players etc. That would before they've even got onto how his teeth look etc.

None of that stuff ever really appealed to me though, so I'm not going to get into it now. Of course there are players better than our defenders in World football, and to say there wasn't was a ridiculous thing to say (if we disregard the fact that he was probably trying his best to make the defenders feel good about themselves). To say he was "totally in control" of transfers was a ridiculous thing to say (if we disregard that he was trying to once and for all stand up and take the responsibility for whoever walks in the door).

Saying we'd win the league within four seasons was probably a ridiculous thing to say too, but it sounded good to us all at the time and I for one won't be holding him to it. I think perhaps once he's realised just how difficult it is to do that (I still don't think he does), he'll be less inclined to toss off the league cup than he is currently. 

Mans a buffoon

Mans a buffoon

Like this guy below?



Looks like one.. But, maybe the outer appearance is just a facade

I am not able to argue with this point. I completely agree with you on the point that he need not have commented about watching those 500 million videos etc..

But, some very interesting points were posted on why we were hung up on VvD or noone else strategy (and, I totally respect those POVs). Interesting as they are in theory, I am not able to come around the fact that we have no other tall, ball playing center backs who are comfortable with a high line of defense. Add to the fact that we sold Sakho who ticks all these boxes. If the market is so small, why should he/TC sell the very player who is part of that small market? What was that point of no return that made him/TC compromise on that exact weakness that we were supposed to strengthen?

On the point that he repeatedly states that we have talented defenders and he doesn't need any one else, clearly, you don't expect him to say anything else, do you? He is not going to say that Lovren or Klavan is sh*t and that they should be nowhere near the club. When he has not got what he wanted, he is left with what he has and it is better to extract the maximum out of what he has (obviously not happening) rather than complain about what he doesn't have to win.

There's a difference between keeping you gob shut and throwing your players under a bus. He could have easily done the former without doing the latter.

What's happened, has Klopp said anything?

Exactly mate, I'm in the second category. Jürgen IMHO was in the unenviable position of having the choice between going in with a dodgy defence, or accepting a TC pick for centre half and centre mid which would have meant he'd have never got his priority targets. I personally would have bitten the bullet on the centre half, but that he didn't IMHO deserves credit. He's no fool ain't this lad and he'll have known that the team was going to suffer in the short term, but he's thinking/hoping it'll be worth it further down the line.

I hope he's right, and until it becomes obvious one way or the other whether or not he is, I'm not going to criticise him 1% for it.

hang on now a second BigMick, are we really supposed to believe that Klopp submitted a long list of possible CB's to the TC but they were all rejected AND that Klopp would not be annoyed by that AND would not show his annoyance in any way? One word for that Bollocks!
I think its far more likely that the TC were saying to him do you not want to get some more CB's Jürgen me old mate and he went "Nein, if I can't have VVD I don't want nobody baby" ;-)

hang on now a second BigMick, are we really supposed to believe that Klopp submitted a long list of possible CB's to the TC but they were all rejected AND that Klopp would not be annoyed by that AND would not show his annoyance in any way? One word for that Bollocks!
I think its far more likely that the TC were saying to him do you not want to get some more CB's Jürgen me old mate and he went "Nein, if I can't have VVD I don't want nobody baby" ;-)

100% agree, that's my theory too.

100% agree, that's my theory too.

Slight nuance for me.

I find it perfectly feasible to believe that the TC put a compilation of 6-10 CBs together for consideration.

Jürgen viewed it and thought "you know what they aren't materially better than what I've got and they ain't VVD.......no thanks"

People need to get their heads out their asses and stop imagining he was looking at a list of VVDesque candidates - more likely a mix of kids / free agents for the money-ball cha-ching.

Big Virg was/is the exception not the rule. That's not the waters our scouts are fishing in.

Big Virg was/is the exception not the rule. That's not the waters our scouts are fishing in.

Why is he the exception though? Why would the board ok £60m for this particular defender that Jürgen wanted, but not for any other possible defender he might have wanted?

Because we only have scouts in Southampton possibly? I'm not saying you're wrong, but why would they be ok with VVD and nobody else?

Maybe they were never prepared to buy VVD either. Maybe they ok'd it to Jürgen and then sabotaged the deal. Maybe.

Or maybe Jürgen genuinely couldn't identify another defender he wanted.

100% agree, that's my theory too.

Ah ok, apologies mate I had the wrong end of the stick, I though you were pinning it on the TC blocking Jürgen targets.

Slight nuance for me.

I find it perfectly feasible to believe that the TC put a compilation of 6-10 CBs together for consideration.

Jürgen viewed it and thought "you know what they aren't materially better than what I've got and they ain't VVD.......no thanks"

People need to get their heads out their asses and stop imagining he was looking at a list of VVDesque candidates - more likely a mix of kids / free agents for the money-ball cha-ching.

Big Virg was/is the exception not the rule. That's not the waters our scouts are fishing in.

But in that case surely Jürgen has to say "f**k that list get me a new one" or give them his own preferred targets. No I'm sorry but whatever way i look at it Jürgen either didn't feel the need for CB's or was 100% obsessed with VVD, both are alarming and points to the fact we need a proper Sporting Directory to look after all player recruitment going forwards.

Why is he the exception though? Why would the board ok £60m for this particular defender that Jürgen wanted, but not for any other possible defender he might have wanted?

Because we only have scouts in Southampton possibly? I'm not saying you're wrong, but why would they be ok with VVD and nobody else?

Maybe they were never prepared to buy VVD either. Maybe they ok'd it to Jürgen and then sabotaged the deal. Maybe.

Or maybe Jürgen genuinely couldn't identify another defender he wanted.

I think it's simpler. Though I do like the conspiracy element of your hypothesis 👍

He told them who he wanted - they were prepared to sanction and we spent the window waiting on a "come hither" sign after a collective f**k up.

Their alternative list was not to his taste. Ultimately I think he was prepared to wait for his guy.

You might think he should've been more flexible - hell I might even agree - I just don't think that's how the club works.

People need to get their heads out their asses and stop imagining he was looking at a list of VVDesque candidates - more likely a mix of kids / free agents for the money-ball cha-ching.

Exactly.

Remember a few seasons ago..

Sell Suarez.. Say that we are in for Sanchez (when we were originally in for Balotelli).. Rodgers categorically denies that we are in for Balotelli.. Rodgers might have been sold short..We end up with Balotelli.

Because Balotelli costs 50% less than Sanchez and demands "only" 90k per week. The shirts were anyway sold because people thought he was a mad genius. Unfortunately, he is only mad.

I think it's simpler. Though I do like the conspiracy element of your hypothesis 👍

He told them who he wanted - they were prepared to sanction and we spent the window waiting on a "come hither" sign after a collective f**k up.

Their alternative list was not to his taste. Ultimately I think he was prepared to wait for his guy.

You might think he should've been more flexible - hell I might even agree - I just don't think that's how the club works.

Their alternative list not being to his taste I can well believe.

So the question then is - did he go to them with a list ( however short) of his own?

If you think he did, then why did they say no to his alternatives, given they were supposedly prepared to pay a fortune for VVD? Were his other options even more expensive?

If you think he didn't, then why didn't he?

Jürgen himself appears to be saying that he didn't - that he genuinely couldn't identify anybody he wanted other than VVD. The simplest explanation is that this is actually true. In which case he has taken a big gamble on the guys who are already here.

Of course, the simplest explanations are by no means necessarily true. But it does seem surprising to me that Jürgen would come out and basically take full responsibility for the decision if he was pissed off at the club for restricting him to a list of options that he didn't think were good enough.

Their alternative list not being to his taste I can well believe.

So the question then is - did he go to them with a list ( however short) of his own?

If you think he did, then why did they say no to his alternatives, given they were supposedly prepared to pay a fortune for VVD? Were his other options even more expensive?

If you think he didn't, then why didn't he?

Jürgen himself appears to be saying that he didn't - that he genuinely couldn't identify anybody he wanted other than VVD. The simplest explanation is that this is actually true. In which case he has taken a big gamble on the guys who are already here.

Of course, the simplest explanations are by no means necessarily true. But it does seem surprising to me that Jürgen would come out and basically take full responsibility for the decision if he was pissed off at the club for restricting him to a list of options that he didn't think were good enough.

I think we're actually saying the same thing but with emphasis on different parts.

I do think he wanted VVD and couldn't see a reasonable alternative - I get that. I've  said many times having watched a bit of Big Virg he's not like anybody else I can think of at the moment. There are several that have bits of it (including our own Joel at his best) not not the whole nine yards......

I think thereafter it's a clusterfuck and he just hasn't valued the alternatives and (perhaps) believed (or was led to believe) that a compromise would be found to bring the big guy to Anfield.

Mans a buffoon

Give over. You've been against him since day one because he replaced your fantasy boy Brendan.

Needs to pull his finger out though and stop talking sh*t about our defence being wonderful and get it sorted.