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      Instinctive Players for LFC

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      redkenny
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      Instinctive Players for LFC
      Oct 24, 2015 11:44:09 pm
      Instinct. Natural ability. We've had some great players over the years who just had the knack of being boss.

      Over coached imo
      One of the things I said about BR, was that sometimes he tried to be too clever for his own good, and I think that led to confusion on the pitch, with players trying to play to complicated instructions, which doesn't leave any room or time for instinctive play.

      I think we'll see that change under Klopp.

      I thought this was a very thought provoking point about how much players these days can be swerved away from their natural ability.

      But the question is this. Do we really have some instinctive players at LFC? And if so, how much work is needed to bring it out?
      srslfc
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #1: Oct 24, 2015 11:53:54 pm
      Interesting topic Ken and agree that is a great post from Swab you quoted.

      Off the top of my head I think our most instinctive players are Sturridge, Emre, Firmino, Sakho and Phil.

      I agree with Swab that our players have been stifled during the latter stages of the Brendan era and as I've said a few times on here I think he never got the best out of the squad since Luis left.

      Over coaching and extremely cautious tactics have left players with lots of natural ability not playing their natural game.

      It might take a while but I think Jürgen has an approach that will bring out that natural ability as he does talk a lot about playing players in their best positions.

      « Last Edit: Oct 25, 2015 12:15:08 am by srslfc »
      redkenny
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #2: Oct 25, 2015 12:15:36 am
      Off the top of my head I think our most instinctive players are Sturridge, Emre, Firmino, Sakho and Phil.

      Think you've nailed the nailed on players there Si.

      No Lucas, no?





      srslfc
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #3: Oct 25, 2015 12:21:10 am
      Think you've nailed the nailed on players there Si.

      No Lucas, no?







      I'm a big fan of Lucas as you know mate but I wouldn't put him in that 'instinctive' category. He's a more measured player who always seems to have a plan of what he's doing during a game.

      The one's I've mentioned are those that I think have that creative spark that kind if cones from their natural ability and they have that moment our of the ordinary in them.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #4: Oct 25, 2015 02:53:24 am
      It's a criticism of Van Gaal too - over coaching players and stifling creative freedom of certain players. I'm not sure where Brendan stood with regards to this.

      But players brains shouldn't merely be an extension of the managers brain - a key requirement should be the ability to think for themselves and allow them to take risks. Whether the emphasis on possession yielded the infuriating sideways passing (of which old habits seem to die hard with Joe Allen judging by his inept performance against Kazan) and dulled a players independence is up for debate, but a pertinent point should be made regarding how Arsene Wenger managed Dennis Bergkamp.

      I was reading Bergkamp's autobiography (the ONLY footballer biography you should read as it is very intelligent and thought provoking - not some half baked cliched tripe - take note Fowler and Gerrard) and he himself stated how Wenger didn't explicitly tell him what to do in matches - it was merely 'do your own thing' as Wenger trusted Bergkamp. And that trust was rewarded with thrilling performances from Bergkamp. But he also has a word to say about Luis Suarez in his autobiography - he does not believe Suarez would have been the player he is if he had been brought up in the heavily coaching oriented Europe.

      His rebellious instinctive streetwise game was self taught on the tough streets of where he was brought up in Uruguay. To have over coached him at a young age (which Bergkamp believes would have happened to him in some sections of Europe) would have been to dull his capabilities as a youngster with a coach thinking for him as opposed to letting the player think for himself. Now it is not to say that all young players shouldn't be coached - some just don't have the ability so it is a prerequisite - but even in England it is definitely the case. Wayne Rooney has never bettered his early form from 2004-2005 because Ferguson over coached him. While temperament was improved, Rooney's instinctive killer touch was dulled. Now and then we see it reappear but it is fleeting. A warning to our footballing culture which emphasises strict positioning, organisation and 'knock it long' tactics which stifle young players development. There is no way a world class player will come from this.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #5: Oct 25, 2015 04:16:12 am
      Quote
      But he also has a word to say about Luis Suarez in his autobiography - he does not believe Suarez would have been the player he is if he had been brought up in the heavily coaching oriented Europe.

      His rebellious instinctive streetwise game was self taught on the tough streets of where he was brought up in Uruguay. To have over coached him at a young age (which Bergkamp believes would have happened to him in some sections of Europe) would have been to dull his capabilities as a youngster with a coach thinking for him as opposed to letting the player think for himself.

      I would agree with Bergkamp re Luis - specifically in relation to England/Britain.

      The thing is, when you have a special player like Luis, who joins Liverpool in his prime and knowing what he can do; like Wenger, with Bergkamp, you'd just have to let the player 'get on with it'. There is no need to 'over-coach' players like Luis Suarez or Dennis Bergkamp.

      However, you may need to balance the instinct out with discipline in certain instances, while remembering not all your players are as gifted and as talented as Suarez - that's part of being a good manager.

      Take Rafa Benitez, where his Liverpool team's synergy was down to the 'whole being greater than the sum of it's parts', the Red grinding machine. I remember he tugged Gerrard off at Goodison for Lucas (and IIRC this proved a good decision), where Gerrard's instinct was to go 'hell for leather', and he didn't have the discipline to tame his instincts.

      I would have to say almost all footballers are instinctive. I don't think this is the issue with our team in general. I would say due to average form, and the quality of some of our players, their instinct/mentality goes into 'safe' mode: Not taking risks, not taking a man on in the event that possession is turned over and the crowd groan again, taking snap shots with no composure, not being able to play that final pass with the perfect weight etc. In order to do these things, you need the ability and consistency to do them in your locker in the first place. If you don't, your instinct is to be more pragmatic and efficient with the ball.

      I look at Coutinho, his instincts are still there, to create, to try something that has a high percentage of coming to nothing. He's still trying the same things as he has always done. This to me, says that his mentality/instinct isn't shot but his form has terribly dropped. His instinct to create and attack is still there, his composure and form isn't. He may actually need to go back to basics in order to rediscover his form. He may need to curb his instinct in order to build his form back up.

      Do some of our players need their instinct brought out by the manager? Yes, Perhaps. I'd be inclined to look at the quality first in the player before giving them carte blanche --imagine that-- it could end up a right dogs dinner, with headless chickens swanning about doing Fanny Adams.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #6: Oct 25, 2015 10:50:59 am
      Do we really have some instinctive players at LFC? And if so, how much work is needed to bring it out?
      Alright Kenny, great to see you back braw.  8)

      I'm guessing (and you can correct me if I've picked you up wrong) by 'instinctive' you mean creative players; players who can make something 'out of nothing'? For me that would be Firmino, Sturridge, Coutinho and Henderson - all of which are players who, when let loose, have a creative spark. [I'd also be tempted to add Lallana to that list]

      In my opinion players like this, whilst possessing that individual spark, also need each other to bounce off for maximum impact. To that end, rather than having been stifled; 'we' have been unlucky - particularly with injuries. When was the last time any manager has been able to field even three of those four, at full fitness, in a game?  :-\

      As for 'bringing it out' again... an injury-free, fully fit, run of games will see the players (and therefore team) benefit. So, I suppose, Jürgen, just like the rest of us, will be hoping for a bit of 'luck'. 'Til then patience is the order of the day.



       
      Swab
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #7: Oct 25, 2015 12:15:02 pm
      It seems to be a trend football is moving more and more towards in this country, and the FA have to take a large share of blame for the way even grass roots football is approached.
      They have missed a crucial aspect imo and have taken "well drilled" into "automaton" territory.

      We've seen previously how FA idea's can flourish and infect the whole game during the long ball period debacle in the 80's, where some suit worked out that the less passes you played and the quicker you got the ball forwards, the more goals you score.
      It looked good to them on paper, and so it was put into practise, with results we all know too well.

      As teams started getting back into Europe, it became more and more apparent that the long ball philosophy simply didn't work, so managers started to look for other systems, as did the FA.
      We saw then throughout the first decade more and more "technocrat" managers like Rafa as monitoring equipment became more sophisticated, and players were micro managed or "micro coached".
      Now this "technocrat" approach works well in one on one sessions, and combined with other coaching techniques, but the fact is that it is just another tool to be used.

      Unfortunately, the FA (as usual) take something, look at it the wrong way and then F**k it up, which is what we now see with young players being told "when x happens, you must do y", but crucially with no instruction or coaching to allow freedom of expression, so we see the players on the pitch; "OK, x has happened, I'm supposed to do y, but that leaves me out of position because the opposition have changed what we expected, so what the F**k do I do now? I'll just do Y anyway because I won't get a bollocking for sticking rigidly to instructions".
      In short, it's become a mess, a farce even, with kids being over coached, stifled and confused.

      The really unfortunate part of this is that you now have 2 types of manager: the foreign managers who look around, think "what the F**k is this sh*t", and implement their own plans, and the career managers found in mostly lower leagues who stick to FA "guidelines" to qualify for development money and other extras. Of course there are a few British managers who buck the trend, and play the way they want to but curiously they are nearly always described as "mavericks" or some other nonsense.
      I think what we saw with BR was a man who wanted to play a certain way (very much like Klopp) but was either ineffective at communicating what he wanted or being so involved in technical details that he literally micro managed players into confusion.
      My own feeling is that it was the latter which was the problem.

      So we come full circle to LFC players and the question of whether we have instinctive players.
      Yes, we do, but it's going to take some time for them to realise (subconsciously) that the shackles have been loosened, and that's when we'll sort the wheat from the chaff: over coached players reliant on managers instructions (and don't forget we still need them as well), and "street footballers" like Coutinho who aren't necessarily better players but are quicker in the mind because they haven't had it coached out of them at a young age.
      If I was Klopp, I'd be tempted to take young players who have played internationals (U16, U18 etc etc) to one side when they come back and stress to them that they should forget what the FA coaches have been telling them, and concentrate solely on what the club is telling them because in the long run it will make them better players in the physical and the mental sense.

      For instance, it's clear to me that Ibe has flair, and lots of it, but he gets a bit stuck sometimes because he's done "x" but "y" hasn't happened so he needs a moment to think.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #8: Oct 25, 2015 12:21:53 pm
      I think players are over drilled and over coached yet how many times do you see a player try to cross a ball and fail to get it past the first man. The best players in the world are not over coached just let the flare players do there thing first and the nasty stuff second
      Scotia
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #9: Oct 25, 2015 12:36:14 pm
      Alright Kenny, great to see you back braw.  8)

      I'm guessing (and you can correct me if I've picked you up wrong) by 'instinctive' you mean creative players; players who can make something 'out of nothing'? For me that would be Firmino, Sturridge, Coutinho and Henderson - all of which are players who, when let loose, have a creative spark. [I'd also be tempted to add Lallana to that list]

      In my opinion players like this, whilst possessing that individual spark, also need each other to bounce off for maximum impact. To that end, rather than having been stifled; 'we' have been unlucky - particularly with injuries. When was the last time any manager has been able to field even three of those four, at full fitness, in a game?  :-\

      As for 'bringing it out' again... an injury-free, fully fit, run of games will see the players (and therefore team) benefit. So, I suppose, Jürgen, just like the rest of us, will be hoping for a bit of 'luck'. 'Til then patience is the order of the day.
       

      I'd actually add Moreno to that list.

      Rather than polish the kid's attributes and educate him we seemed intent last season on coaching the adventure out of him.

      This kid has serious potential - let him be a McGrain / Carlos / Cafu "type" and learn the game......don't try to turn him into Wayne Bridge........ because you won't turn him back........ 
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #10: Oct 25, 2015 12:51:25 pm
      I'd actually add Moreno to that list.
      I'd thought about him Scotia but reneged simply because a gut instinct to attack, when you're a defender, isn't necessarily a good thing - to that end; I believe it's important that the instinct is controlled to some extent. We can't, on the one hand, slate him for being caught upfield and leaving us exposed but on the other, demand more adventure - I guess, when we are scoring freely 'adventure' is easier accepted.

       The thing is [at his age]; he's still learning that the balance has to be right but it's really not a question of him being stifled (in my opinion, obviously).
      Scotia
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #11: Oct 25, 2015 01:12:15 pm
      I'd thought about that Scotia but reneged simply because a gut instinct to attack, when you're a defender, isn't necessarily a good thing - to that end; I believe it's important that the instinct is controlled to some extent. We can't, on the one hand, slate him for being caught upfield and leaving us exposed but on the other, demand more adventure - I guess, when we are scoring freely 'adventure' is easier accepted.

       The thing is [at his age]; he's still learning and the balance has to be right but it's really not a question of him being stifled (in my opinion, obviously).

      Partially agree Bad Boy but for me - last season at least - he ended up playing in 3 minds. I also think he carried the can for rank bad defending across the backline at times. I've said before that he also rescued us on a number of occasions sweeping because of his pace.

      With my kids (2003 age group) I work a lot with the full backs on watching their position when not in possession (or when play is on the opposite side) and defending narrow - ensuring communication with the centre halves.

      However when in possession - I want them high and early......if play goes inside then revert to above......if there is an opportunity to advance and create extra man then I want them to be brave..........but don't get me wrong we work really hard physically and mentally on recovery. They know that bravery includes the fact that recovery is going to hurt and they go forward knowing that if it doesn't come off they must recover.

      Even with kids it's funny how quickly they start (usually) to make better, balanced, choices. I think it encourages responsibility.

      For me - I don't want to play this kid handcuffed. As last season wore on I actually think that contributed to his issues (when he played).

      Then again........maybe I've swallowed a volume of two too many of the positive coaching ethos......;)   

      waltonl4
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #12: Oct 25, 2015 01:18:14 pm
      I believe Sir Bob seldom told the player what to do it seemed to work ok.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #13: Oct 25, 2015 02:07:10 pm
      Partially agree Bad Boy but for me - last season at least - he ended up playing in 3 minds.
      Not arguing with that Scotia - merely suggesting that this was down as much to circumstance [lack of goals/attacking prowess/concentration therefore on defence] than any concerted effort (by anyone) to stifle the kid's natural instinct to blaze forward.

      More a case of 'needs must', if you will and that will continue until such times as we are playing free-flowing, goal-scoring football again. It can't not buddy.
      Scotia
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #14: Oct 25, 2015 02:15:51 pm
      Not arguing with that Scotia - merely suggesting that this was down as much to circumstance [lack of goals/attacking prowess/concentration therefore on defence] than any concerted effort (by anyone) to stifle the kid's natural instinct to blaze forward.

      More a case of 'needs must', if you will and that will continue until such times as we are playing free-flowing, goal-scoring football again. It can't not buddy.


      I get that - I think we're essentially saying the same thing.

      The only difference is I'd put him the instinctive pot and say "harness" it and you have a game changer (+) whereas (understandably) you'd say until there's more balance through the team you'd "rein" it in a tad to avoid producing a game changer (-).

      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #15: Oct 25, 2015 03:51:01 pm
      Fascinating debate, everyone, and some really well-argued posts.  I want to see more risk-taking.

      'Playing the percentages' is a phrase that's come into the game in the last 20 years thanks mainly to Hansen's punditry, I believe.  It's a good one for defenders, who are often faced with a dilemma regarding keeping possession in risky areas and looking for a pass, or putting the ball out of play, thereby gifting possession to the opposition.  Unfortunately, it seems to apply to all positions now, and the safe option for an attacker in an advanced position seems to be to hold up play and keep possession until reinforcements arrive rather than take a chance to beat a man or have a go at goal, particularly when team form is low.

      Strangely, it seems to be the so called 'big clubs' that suffer most from this, perhaps due to weight of expectation and pressure from management, media and fans?  I get the impression from MOTD that the 'lower-expectation sides' of the Prem tend to attack with more instinct, pace and aggression and their players are more prepared to take responsibility for getting a crack in on goal.  It may also be that they are often in counter-attacking mode and therefore aren't usually facing the massed ranks of a defence as we so often are.

      But I'm convinced that saying to Coutinho, Lallana or Firmino, "take a risk in the final third, try something special,"  would result in more goals.  These are technically excellent players.  Yet they are content to limit themselves to displaying, say, 75% of their prowess.  Let's face it, our attacks have looked predictable for months, and the lack of goals is firm evidence of that. 

      I for one wouldn't criticize a player for having a pop at goal.  I know Coutinho likes a shot, and has been lambasted for it, but I say fair play to him.  If you don't shoot, you don't score.  If I was him, seeing limited options in a crowded box and little movement around me, I'd be looking to bend it into the top corner.  Let's back these guys to entertain us, not knock them for trying what most of us can only dream of doing.
      barrymanulow
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      Re: Instinctive Players for LFC
      Reply #16: Oct 28, 2015 05:54:30 am
      I think Coutinho fits into the style Man City play, with clever players like Silva, Nasri, Aguero opening up defences with one-twos and reverse passes. The problem is the closest thing we had was Sterling and he is now gone. Always feel that he is too clever for the others around him and thus has become ineffective recently. Because he is not on the same wavelength as his team mates he feels all there is left is to do is shift the ball to the right and smash it from too far out. To me he is the most instinctive player, but sadly we don't have the players around him to compliment his game.

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