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      Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?

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      harrydunn08
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succed?
      Reply #23: Dec 29, 2015 05:30:29 pm
      I'm with you, pal.  We need to get away from 'philosophies' and remember the point of the game is to score more goals than the other bunch of lads. 

      Sorry mate, but I completely disagree with this. Harry Redknapp used to just put the best 11 players out with no real direction or purpose and said "just go play football."  That never worked well for him because the teams with a clear directive and proper execution would always beat them. 

      Barcelona probably have the most notable philosophy of any team in the world.  They breed the tiki-taka style into their players from very young ages, and they have been reaping the rewards for the last decade or so.  A clear vision and proper execution is the best formula for success.
      Claudio
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succed?
      Reply #24: Dec 29, 2015 05:44:56 pm
      This time I have to agree with althebest1. It's simple, really. We don't need to become more direct, we need to become better. Captain obvious, very simple but true. Let's sign players who are good enough, and let's get rid of the players who don't deserve to play for LFC. When we talk about '' lesser teams '', we do seem to forget that we ourselves are one of the '' lesser teams '' in the league. That's it! With the side that we have now, we should deal with the fact that there's no win we can take for granted. Just take a look at the starting XI, then tell me if you're surprised we keep losing to the likes of Watford, Newcastle etc.
      I'm not!

      I know that we're not talking about the transfer window in this thread, but you probably get my point.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succed?
      Reply #25: Dec 29, 2015 06:23:09 pm
      Sorry mate, but I completely disagree with this. Harry Redknapp used to just put the best 11 players out with no real direction or purpose and said "just go play football."  That never worked well for him because the teams with a clear directive and proper execution would always beat them. 

      Barcelona probably have the most notable philosophy of any team in the world.  They breed the tiki-taka style into their players from very young ages, and they have been reaping the rewards for the last decade or so.  A clear vision and proper execution is the best formula for success.

      I take your point, and its a good one.  I think I did put it clumsily in that sentence you quoted and you're right to pull me up.

      As Claudio says, we need to be better - and for me that means having players who are sufficiently able and intelligent to see what's required, be it a quick long pass or a patient, possession build up.  The thing about Barca, though, is that they only possess the ball for as long as it takes to spot a weakness in the defence and then suddenly, they'll exploit it instantly. Its not possession for possession's sake.  If they have a counter attack against a disorganized defence, and see the chance to make a long accurate (direct) forward pass, they do it. 

      The point I wanted to make is that our players seem less confident at making those instant decisions and acting on them instantly and effectively, whether that means going direct or keeping possession in the build-up play. 
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succed?
      Reply #26: Dec 29, 2015 06:40:54 pm
      We definitely need to get the ball forward faster, but then we need to make sure someone is making runs to receive the ball.
      The Chelsea game showed what we are capable of when we moved quickly, when Sturridge comes back I think we'll see more of that kind of play.
      welshred
      • Forum David Johnson
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #27: Dec 29, 2015 07:15:57 pm
      I cant think of one team that has won the league in recent years being direct.

      Manchester United - even in the days of Yorke and Cole were playing football and putting crosses in for them. Giggs was making mazy runs, Neville making overlaps and Scholes playing well crafted balls through the middle. Then Ronaldo and Valencia ran the wings with both powerful explosive runs and so forth.

      Arsenal - they basically walked it in and counter attacked teams to oblivion with Pires and Ljungberg. The most direct they ever went really was passing it into Bergkamp to play off. In fact, I'd say since going more direct with strikers like Giroud they've been emphatically worse as a team whereas when they had Henry, who'd turn and go at the opposition and link up better, they scared teams to death.

      Man City - they played football with possession being the main point - they controlled in the middle of the park and then released players with the right pass when the time was right. It was often boring but allowed players like Toure to dictate the flow of the game and keep control of it. This has been proven time and time again, because when Toure cannot dictate the flow of the game and Man City lose their midfield control and dictation, they fall to pieces, as they did to us this season.

      Chelsea - perhaps more direct than the others but still not that direct. Drogba did well at holding it up and feeding others into play. The alternative for them was Drogba falling over like he'd been shot multiple times and surrounding the referee until he gave them a decision. However, they still played some good counter attacking football at times, much like Leicester are doing now.

      Personally, even though he's bagged us winners this season, I still think Benteke was a major screw up of a signing by Rodgers, but hopefully he can adapt. Rodgers was a domestic level manager at best, we hoped could keep rising in the game, and elevate us at the same time. It didn't work out yet people kept wanting his mediocrity to turn into something more. It only ever did when we went on incredible runs of form and to expect that week in, week out is insane. We need enough quality to be able to play sh*t and still come away with the points.

      Benteke was proven domestically but to replace someone like Suarez you need someone proven on world level, and for a manager like Rodgers, its no easy task to replace him. With all due respect, no world class player is going to come and play for Rodgers. You need a well respected manager in the world to bring in these top players and make them believe. Even if you are average now you make these players buy into your vision. Klopp will be able to do that. The media furore over him is no hype job, its because he's respected for his achievements, most notably at Dortmund, and that is infectious.

      I hope Benteke works out, and if it does, it'll be more to do with Klopp's nurturing and mentoring of him, and Benteke's ability to adapt to Klopp's way, than anything else. Under Rodgers, Benteke looked completely lost. He was not a player that fitted Rodgers system and Rodgers just simply didn't have the answers. He should have signed Tevez or went all out for a hungry striker who chased down and caused problems. Instead he replaced a bloodthirsty pitbull with an elegant labrador. It just didn't make sense. Klopp either needs to get Benteke to adapt or he needs to replace him, but he shouldn't waste too much time on him or it'll be his undoing.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #28: Dec 29, 2015 08:01:25 pm
      Having a clue how to defend a corner would be a good start.
      MIRO
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #29: Dec 29, 2015 08:54:57 pm
      Look at any top team and I do mean any including your Brazil,s the Germans , them cu*ts down the east lancs the great arsenal teams in fact our very own great teams they all had one thing in common ,

      a fully functional hard tackling play making midfield , sadly we dont .


      Mascher and Alonso  the perfect pairing .

      Scottbot
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #30: Dec 29, 2015 10:09:44 pm
      Nice OP Si, I wouldn't be averse to us playing a little more direct, and by that I don't mean playing long balls but by trying to hit strikers feet early and playing off him. Ideally this would be Benteke (assuming we see some more movement from the big man following his man talk with the manager) but the key is getting players in, around and beyond him. One way to do that would be to play with two up but it can also work with Firmino, Coutinho and Henderson buzzing around the big man. I wouldn't like to see us just tossing it up there and hoping to run onto to flick ons and bits and pieces but I'd love to see Benteke setting a few shots from the edge of the box but that sort of thing needs to be scripted and patterned on the training ground first.

      The key issues (as I see it) with our current approach to home matches vs the bus-parkers is two-fold. Firstly we have no one who can bring what Studge brings to the table. On full fitness and form and is comfortably IMHO our best and most important player (even better than Coutinho). He is obviously a huge threat with his pace and finishing ability when he plays on the shoulder but if you sit deep and starve him of that space he will drop off, face up and then run beat players with skill and trickery. So that for me is our biggest problem, we've got no one else who can do that and when Studge plays he makes it easier for everyone else in the side. Does Origi get that hatrick at Saints if Studge isn't in the side? Not a chance.

      The 2nd issue (when Studge isn't in the team - which is always!) is with our CMs. Strength, tenacity, work-rate all spring to mind but there is a lack of guile and creativity between them. If it isn't happening in front of them they all struggle a little bit, we don't have what I would call a pure passer in the Alonso/Carrick/Pirlo mould and neither to we have a string puller who can thread it in the final third (think Modric but Stevie did this for us for years). Funnily enough our middies strengths actually play into a more direct style ie. Winning 2nd balls, competing for everything, engines to get up and down and some strong lads in there (particularly Can, Hendo and Lucas)
      « Last Edit: Dec 29, 2015 10:33:47 pm by Scottbot »
      Billy1
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #31: Dec 29, 2015 10:19:49 pm
      Mascher and Alonso  the perfect pairing .



      Willie Stevenson and Tommy Smith,class and agression says it all.
      andylfcynwa
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #32: Dec 30, 2015 02:20:44 am
      Willie Stevenson and Tommy Smith,class and agression says it all.

      Thsts what I'm talking about mate , until we get that balance we will struggle ,  a fully functioning midfield is  every bit as good ad a fully functioning defence only then will we be in shape to win the wholly grail the
      Class
      • Forum Jamie Redknapp
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #33: Dec 31, 2015 06:50:27 pm
      I don't see why people equate being "more direct" (as Si meant it) with hoofball. We do need to get the ball forward a lot faster than we do now.  Benteke's goal against Sunderland was as direct as they come, Clyne's pass was what a good 40 or so yards on the deck. We need that bravery in our passing and we need players with pace who are willing to run at defenders and make space for their teammates.

      Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana are nice to have but I don't see the point in having all 3 of them in the team together because they all like having the ball to feet and neither one of them attempt to stretch the opposition back line. Put a couple of players in the Pedro mould in our aide and we'd be laughing.

      Anyway Happy New Year fellow Reds. Hope you, your families and the mighty Liverpool Football Club have a prosperous 2016.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #34: Dec 31, 2015 07:07:18 pm
      Willie Stevenson and Tommy Smith,class and agression says it all.

      Souness and Case ?
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #35: Dec 31, 2015 08:31:15 pm
      Possession game is only worthwhile if it is controlled possession.

      Numerous games we may have had 70% possession but didn't look as if we were breaking down the opposition lines, and we were never in control. In fact, many teams were controlling us without the ball. Mourinho sides have shown perfect case studies where they don't have the ball but have the opposition team wrapped around their finger.

      Barca is an example of 70% possession which IS controlled. They look threatening with it because they have the players to do it - effective possession relies on quick thinking, poise, guile and good touch - it seemed as if Barca at their peak under Guardiola were always three passes ahead of the opposition, in that whoever had the ball, the team almost had a psychic like quality of where it would be in a few passes. Many times with us, the player who had the ball - and the players around him - seemed clueless. Intelligence must be another crucial factor in this type of game I think.

      Never ever take the possession stat seriously - I admit I used to do it a few years back as evidence of a much better team but it is simply one of the most misleading stats you can look at. As long as it is not an appalling stat where we only have 5% of the ball, then there is no reason to look at it I think.

      Likewise, I wouldn't equate directness with long ball. Direct play is more the case of build from the back then a few killer passes in your own half, as opposed to the last line of defence blasting it into no man's land in the hope of a big man being up front. United under Ferguson executed the direct play most effectively and we showed it many times in 13/14.

      I just wonder if Brendan's obsession with possession football eventually did it for him - he seemed to return to the default mode back in 14/15. Someone like Sanchez would have been a perfect signing to continue the style of play in 13/14 but signing the likes of Lambert and Lallana was a sign that hold up play in the final third would be emphasised a lot more than running behind the lines.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #36: Jan 01, 2016 03:16:52 am
      No, we need to become more adaptable and that's something you can clearly see Klopp working on. Happy New Year to everyone by the way o/
      redkop63
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #37: Jan 01, 2016 10:46:47 am
      In all honesty, we didn't do too badly in the opposition box, it's just that when our lads found themselves inside the opposition box they looked jittery, lost, don't know what to do, bolted to ground no movement. This is one area we need to work on quickly. as soon as we get some rhythm inside the opposition box the goals will start to flow.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Do We Need To Become More Direct To Succeed?
      Reply #38: Jan 01, 2016 11:50:12 am
      I've been thinking about his for a few weeks now and the way the league has been this season, and even last, with the 'lower' teams becoming much stronger and more capable of beating the so called top sides.

      The likes of Stoke, Palace, Leicester, Watford and others can sign better players than ever before and the middle tier of clubs can and have closed he gap to the top albeit not quite enough to seriously challenge for honours.

      We have always struggled to beat these sides, especially at home, and the most success against them I can recall was during Brendan's run to second place where we did play a more direct counter attacking style of football.

      Is the key to winning the league becoming a little more direct and a little less subtle because passing around and trying to draw this type of opposition out hasn't succeeded for us over the years so should we play two strikers and at least one wide player and try something different to win against the 'lesser' sides and build up points that will help towards a title challenge?

      I'm not advocating a long ball style but I think this league has changed and we need to find a formula to beat sides outside the traditional big clubs in order to win the title.

      Thought provoking post srslfc..... And some great points. To be quite honest I do not know. What I do know is under Rafa most of the players bought in (strikers and middle-fielders) scored on a regular basis, we pretty much maintained that up until K.D's second stint and now; in this incarnation of LFC we have no real goal scores from middle field, coupled with strikers that spend more time injured than on the pitch.... Will not use this to single out anyone striker in particular, because If we have four strikers (Ings,Origi,Benteke and Sturridge) missing lager parts of the season due to injuries its a real problem...Until we solve this problem I am not sure that a more direct/indirect approach really matters

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