Loris Karius (End of Contract)

Mate, there are first times for everything, unfortunatley for us it was a first time for us
I remember when Utd bought De Gea think he was not all that, same with  ter Stegen

This De Gea was sh*t in his first season is very much overblown, he was a bit nervy at handling crosses, that is true, but you could immediately see there was a class goalkeeper there, sadly the same can't be said of Karius, I simply do not feel he has excellence in him. He is a fairly good goalkeeper prone to overconfidence and mistakes and we need better if are to challenge for top honours, its that simple.

Remember... We were saying the same thing re-starting LB about Moreno

Yeah but maybe Klopp has learned that sticking with a sh*t player is not the best policy, he certainly learned that with Moreno, hence why we now have Robertson as our main LB.

Brucie's comments about karius are spot on for me

This De Gea was sh*t in his first season is very much overblown, he was a bit nervy at handling crosses, that is true, but you could immediately see there was a class goalkeeper there, sadly the same can't be said of Karius, I simply do not feel he has excellence in him. He is a fairly good goalkeeper prone to overconfidence and mistakes and we need better if are to challenge for top honours, its that simple.

Heim' did not say De Gea was sh*t, just said i didn't think he was all that... Saw some things with Karius that, makes me think he can be a great goal keeper...

was really quick off the line to take a ball away from Benzema in the final even though it was given offside in the end (Karius didn't know that) ...
If you take away his two mistakes could you really fault how the performed in the Finals...

Yeah but maybe Klopp has learned that sticking with a sh*t player is not the best policy, he certainly learned that with Moreno, hence why we now have Robertson as our main LB.

Moreno was good before he was injured, think it was more of Robertson being better than Moreno being bad

This De Gea was sh*t in his first season is very much overblown, he was a bit nervy at handling crosses, that is true, but you could immediately see there was a class goalkeeper there, sadly the same can't be said of Karius, I simply do not feel he has excellence in him. He is a fairly good goalkeeper prone to overconfidence and mistakes and we need better if are to challenge for top honours, its that simple.

Not to mention De Gea was what, 19? Karius turns 25 this month, he is far from being a youngster.

If you take away his two mistakes could you really fault how the performed in the Finals

Unfortunately one mistake can easily cost you everything you’ve worked so hard for in a season. 2 mistakes will cost you everything and essentially makes everything good he done in the game irrelevant.

The first mistake luckily didn’t cost us in the end because Mane levelled the score soon after, but that 2nd one killed us, there was never any coming back from that one. If the game had gone on any longer, I have no doubts they would have gotten a 4th goal because Bale and Ronaldo would have just started to pepper shots at him at any given second, his nerve was gone and he’d have dropped another clanger.

1 mistake can be accepted, mistakes happen. But 2, in a game of this magnitude cannot be. It was bad enough when he had his mare vs Bournemouth in his first season.

I’ve been a supporter of Karius but I think it’s time to accept that he simply hasn’t got what it takes to be a top class, reliable keeper and will continue to be a weak link.

Not to mention De Gea was what, 19? Karius turns 25 this month, he is far from being a youngster.

I've already provided an analysis on the previous page which shows that De Gea in his 1st season had a far higher save:shot ratio. That is the crucial stat in my opinion, as clean sheets can be due to anything from a good defence, to a low number of shots on goal. To identify a good keeper, we must consider how many shots on target the keeper actually saves. Of course, there is a further issue of how good the shot was (how saveable), but there is no stat to consider that.

Clearly, we cannot compare De Gea's 1st season or use it as an excuse for Karius. De Gea was better than Karius back then.

Unfortunately one mistake can easily cost you everything you’ve worked so hard for in a season. 2 mistakes will cost you everything and essentially makes everything good he done in the game irrelevant.

The first mistake luckily didn’t cost us in the end because Mane levelled the score soon after, but that 2nd one killed us, there was never any coming back from that one. If the game had gone on any longer, I have no doubts they would have gotten a 4th goal because Bale and Ronaldo would have just started to pepper shots at him at any given second, his nerve was gone and he’d have dropped another clanger.

1 mistake can be accepted, mistakes happen. But 2, in a game of this magnitude cannot be. It was bad enough when he had his mare vs Bournemouth in his first season.

I’ve been a supporter of Karius but I think it’s time to accept that he simply hasn’t got what it takes to be a top class, reliable keeper and will continue to be a weak link.

Not just that, but Karius was poor throughout. He saved Ronaldo's header but pushed it to Benzema, and was the goal was only marginally offside. We were lucky there. Karius did not know there was an offside call and should have deflected the ball away from the incoming player.

Then there was the shot from Isco (?) which hit the bar. Karius came running out, got no where near the ball, and Isco easily chipped the ball over him. So lucky that did not go in.

Brucie's comments about karius are spot on for me

Yep.

I’d like a guaranteed match winner but I remember Brucie at the start  .......and that worked out ok 👌

I've already provided an analysis on the previous page which shows that De Gea in his 1st season had a far higher save:shot ratio. That is the crucial stat in my opinion, as clean sheets can be due to anything from a good defence, to a low number of shots on goal. To identify a good keeper, we must consider how many shots on target the keeper actually saves. Of course, there is a further issue of how good the shot was (how saveable), but there is no stat to consider that.

Clearly, we cannot compare De Gea's 1st season or use it as an excuse for Karius. De Gea was better than Karius back then.

Not just that, but Karius was poor throughout. He saved Ronaldo's header but pushed it to Benzema, and was the goal was only marginally offside. We were lucky there. Karius did not know there was an offside call and should have deflected the ball away from the incoming player.

Then there was the shot from Isco (?) which hit the bar. Karius came running out, got no where near the ball, and Isco easily chipped the ball over him. So lucky that did not go in.

Well, your analysis was wrong. Save/shot ratio is arguably the worst stat to compare goalkeepers. All it shows are goalkeepers having higher save % numbers when they're playing for teams that usually play low defensive lines.

Think about it for a second, why do you think the likes of De Gea and Pope have such high save numbers and high % to go with them? De Gea is obviously a top goalkeeper. Pope is distinctly average and his weaknesses are masked in Burnley's system. If you play a low block, you invite the opposition to take shots from long distance or difficult angles. You'll see crazy numbers where they concede 20 odd shots in a game with like 8 on target or whatever. Goalkeepers in those systems will always deal with a lot of low quality shots. If you play open, expansive football with a high line, the purpose of the system is to limit the amount of shots, which is why the likes of City, us and Spurs concede the lowest amount of shots. Yet the shots the goalkeepers do face, are of higher quality, so their save % will likely be a little bit lower. Doesn't mean they're worse goalkeepers, they just face more difficult shots when the system in front of them fails to prevent them. I once made a map with all spots we conceded goals from, 90% of those were from relatively close range in central areas.

Our whole system is set up to limit the amount of shots the opposition gets and we succeed at that. Bar City (from what I can remember), we face the fewest shots on target in the league. Karius (or any sweeper keeper), plays a big part in that. How often do you see him rushing off of his line to clear the ball? How often do you see him come out and collect through balls? He prevents shots so they don't show in his save numbers, which is why his number is lower. The difference with goalkeepers like De Gea and Pope is that they don't prevent these shots, they try to save them and so they face far more shots.

People that think Alisson is the answer and is worth the £60-70 million we would be paying for him, obviously haven't watched him enough. Is it possible that he is marginally better than Karius? Maybe. Is he £60-70 million better than Karius? No way. Don't forget that he'll likely take at least a season to adapt to the Premier League and the physicality when it comes to crosses and set pieces. He has shown to be pretty average at that department of his game, while Karius actually has stellar numbers coming for crosses (amongst the best in Europe). He also likes to take on attackers doing Cruijf-turns and stuff on a regular basis. People shat themselves when Mignolet did it and want Karius to play it long and safe, yet when Alisson does it, it probably is alright and amazing? Double standards. Allison, at this moment in time, is a near carbon copy of Karius, in my opinion.

Oblak isn't the answer either. It would be like buying a top striker who has only ever played as a target man and out and out 9, as good as he might be as a target man, we don't use one in our system. He's probably amazing, but he won't fit the system and we will be facing far more shots than we do now, unless we would adapt our whole style of play. Oblak will look like a fool in our system when he has to leave the box or play it out from the back. Put Oblak in United's set-up and he'll look like the best goalie in the world (and rightly so, he is an amazing goalkeeper). Courtois will have the same issues in our system. Anyone who has watched Chelsea frequently this season, will have seen him struggling to play it out from the back or messing up when he has to leave the box.

Karius is still my number 1 going into next season, on the condition that he recovers mentally.

Yep.

I’d like a guaranteed match winner but I remember Brucie at the start  .......and that worked out ok 👌

Remember watching motd and us losing at home to citeh and being 12th towards the end of 1981 and brucie having a mare and being written off

Well, your analysis was wrong. Save/shot ratio is arguably the worst stat to compare goalkeepers. All it shows are goalkeepers having higher save % numbers when they're playing for teams that usually play low defensive lines.

Think about it for a second, why do you think the likes of De Gea and Pope have such high save numbers and high % to go with them? De Gea is obviously a top goalkeeper. Pope is distinctly average and his weaknesses are masked in Burnley's system. If you play a low block, you invite the opposition to take shots from long distance or difficult angles. You'll see crazy numbers where they concede 20 odd shots in a game with like 8 on target or whatever. Goalkeepers in those systems will always deal with a lot of low quality shots. If you play open, expansive football with a high line, the purpose of the system is to limit the amount of shots, which is why the likes of City, us and Spurs concede the lowest amount of shots. Yet the shots the goalkeepers do face, are of higher quality, so their save % will likely be a little bit lower. Doesn't mean they're worse goalkeepers, they just face more difficult shots when the system in front of them fails to prevent them. I once made a map with all spots we conceded goals from, 90% of those were from relatively close range in central areas.

Our whole system is set up to limit the amount of shots the opposition gets and we succeed at that. Bar City (from what I can remember), we face the fewest shots on target in the league. Karius (or any sweeper keeper), plays a big part in that. How often do you see him rushing off of his line to clear the ball? How often do you see him come out and collect through balls? He prevents shots so they don't show in his save numbers, which is why his number is lower. The difference with goalkeepers like De Gea and Pope is that they don't prevent these shots, they try to save them and so they face far more shots.

People that think Alisson is the answer and is worth the £60-70 million we would be paying for him, obviously haven't watched him enough. Is it possible that he is marginally better than Karius? Maybe. Is he £60-70 million better than Karius? No way. Don't forget that he'll likely take at least a season to adapt to the Premier League and the physicality when it comes to crosses and set pieces. He has shown to be pretty average at that department of his game, while Karius actually has stellar numbers coming for crosses (amongst the best in Europe). He also likes to take on attackers doing Cruijf-turns and stuff on a regular basis. People shat themselves when Mignolet did it and want Karius to play it long and safe, yet when Alisson does it, it probably is alright and amazing? Double standards. Allison, at this moment in time, is a near carbon copy of Karius, in my opinion.

Oblak isn't the answer either. It would be like buying a top striker who has only ever played as a target man and out and out 9, as good as he might be as a target man, we don't use one in our system. He's probably amazing, but he won't fit the system and we will be facing far more shots than we do now, unless we would adapt our whole style of play. Oblak will look like a fool in our system when he has to leave the box or play it out from the back. Put Oblak in United's set-up and he'll look like the best goalie in the world (and rightly so, he is an amazing goalkeeper). Courtois will have the same issues in our system. Anyone who has watched Chelsea frequently this season, will have seen him struggling to play it out from the back or messing up when he has to leave the box.

Karius is still my number 1 going into next season, on the condition that he recovers mentally.

But so you bring in another keeper to challenge him or one to be a backup? That’s making the assumption that Migs is gone.

Remember watching motd and us losing at home to citeh and being 12th towards the end of 1981 and brucie having a mare and being written off

Don’t remember who they were against but there was a couple in the same category as Bale’s 2nd over first 18-24 months......

Well, your analysis was wrong. Save/shot ratio is arguably the worst stat to compare goalkeepers. All it shows are goalkeepers having higher save % numbers when they're playing for teams that usually play low defensive lines.

Think about it for a second, why do you think the likes of De Gea and Pope have such high save numbers and high % to go with them? De Gea is obviously a top goalkeeper. Pope is distinctly average and his weaknesses are masked in Burnley's system. If you play a low block, you invite the opposition to take shots from long distance or difficult angles. You'll see crazy numbers where they concede 20 odd shots in a game with like 8 on target or whatever. Goalkeepers in those systems will always deal with a lot of low quality shots. If you play open, expansive football with a high line, the purpose of the system is to limit the amount of shots, which is why the likes of City, us and Spurs concede the lowest amount of shots. Yet the shots the goalkeepers do face, are of higher quality, so their save % will likely be a little bit lower. Doesn't mean they're worse goalkeepers, they just face more difficult shots when the system in front of them fails to prevent them. I once made a map with all spots we conceded goals from, 90% of those were from relatively close range in central areas.

Our whole system is set up to limit the amount of shots the opposition gets and we succeed at that. Bar City (from what I can remember), we face the fewest shots on target in the league. Karius (or any sweeper keeper), plays a big part in that. How often do you see him rushing off of his line to clear the ball? How often do you see him come out and collect through balls? He prevents shots so they don't show in his save numbers, which is why his number is lower. The difference with goalkeepers like De Gea and Pope is that they don't prevent these shots, they try to save them and so they face far more shots.

Right, so what stat would you rely on to show your analysis?

Like I say, there is an issue of the quality of the shots, but as a stat, a shot:save ratio gives a very strong account. It is reliable.

In his 1st season, De Gea saved many more shots before conceding than did Karius. That remains the case now.

But so you bring in another keeper to challenge him or one to be a backup? That’s making the assumption that Migs is gone.

Migs is gone, I don't think there's any doubt about that. It's a tough question to answer.

I honestly don't really know what I'd prefer. How many clubs have two goalkeepers at the same level, competing for one spot? That rarely works out well. The last situation I can remember that being the case, is Cech and Courtois, though Cech was already a bit older then.

If we bring in genuine competition, let's say Alisson, you need to give that goalkeeper the time to adapt to the system and the league and there will be mistakes made during that time. What do we do then? Change goalkeepers straight away again because the fans get on his back (Karius situation last season)? Or do we give him the time and space to make mistakes? Can we afford spending that kind of money on a goalkeeper that will make mistakes? Wouldn't we be better off sticking with what we've got in that situation?

I think the best option is bringing in an experienced goalkeeper, used to playing in a system relatively similar to ours and who can step in for the rest of the season if Karius can't rediscover his end of season form. The only issue is that I can't think of any experienced goalkeeper that fits that profile  .

Ramos really is an evil genius

If he can use this moment to really knuckle down and learn how concentration at this level is almost important as skill he could still be a top goalkeeper.
Come on we love an underdog and a redemption story why not Karius
Incidentally I saw Dudek let in more than his fair share of howlers yet some how he played a massive part in the best night this club has had for over 30 years.
He may not comeback it may be too difficult for him but I hope if he leaves its not because he wasn't supported when he needed it most.

Concussion would explain his moments of madness, probably still doesn’t know what happened.

Karius is still my number 1 going into next season, on the condition that he recovers mentally.

Which he won't. The level of criticism and scrutiny from LFC fans and the media in general will be too much for him. The tears at the final whistle probably said it all and giving the doctors permission to leak the news of his concussion also speaks volumes for me. He has already been wrapped in cotton wool and taken out of the lime-light for protection in his first season. Even if he somehow comes through this he is only one mistake away from a similar level of criticism. Klopp is bonkers if he risks it, absolutely bonkers but I don't think he will.

A few posters have made references to other top keepers making errors and coming back from them and they are right, I can remember the likes of Seaman and Schmeichel making some absolute howlers and coming back from them BUT they had already proved themselves to be TOP TOP keepers by this point.

Karius' play in the latter part of the season has been an upgrade on Mignolet, of that there is no doubt but Karius' play has been massively over-played by a few in here. He did ok but still looked shaky to me and didn't inspire much confidence in me. The lad is 6 '2 but at times he plays like he is 5 '9. I appreciate he is quick off his line and play the sweeper keeper role but again, this gets over played for me. Yes the lad is quick off his line but he's hardly the first keeper to do so. 

Migs will obviously go, the best place for Karius to repair his shattered confidence and psyche is as the back-up keeper. Fingers crossed we get a decent one. VVD has made a massive difference and I really quite like our starting back 4 gong into next season. We just need a genuinely decent Keeper to round it off and give us a defence to be proud of.

Concussion would explain his moments of madness, probably still doesn’t know what happened.

Can just about buy that at a stretch for the first goal. Not having that for the other clanger though given it wasn’t his first time, happened the round previous vs Roma but got saved by the bar, there was no concussion then.

Actually, I can’t really accept it for the first goal either thinking about it because he had no problem rushing off his line to collect the ball in front of Benzema in the first place. He just wasn’t expecting Benzema to be switched on and stick his leg out.

Feel all this concussion stuff coming out is just a way to take the heat off him a bit. But, I’m not a doctor and I don’t know how he was feeling. Regardless though we’ve lost, not going to change anything, we all know Ramos is a c**t. Doesn’t look to be too bad for Karius so hopefully he can return to pre season as normal still.

Fair play to the lad though, so many players or managers would have come out and used this as an excuse, but he hasn’t so good to see he means it when he’s accepting responsibility for the goals.

Can just about buy that at a stretch for the first goal. Not having that for the other clanger though given it wasn’t his first time, happened the round previous vs Roma but got saved by the bar, there was no concussion then.

Actually, I can’t really accept it for the first goal either thinking about it because he had no problem rushing off his line to collect the ball in front of Benzema in the first place. He just wasn’t expecting Benzema to be switched on and stick his leg out.

Feel all this concussion stuff coming out is just a way to take the heat off him a bit. But, I’m not a doctor and I don’t know how he was feeling. Regardless though we’ve lost, not going to change anything, we all know Ramos is a c**t. Doesn’t look to be too bad for Karius so hopefully he can return to pre season as normal still.

Fair play to the lad though, so many players or managers would have come out and used this as an excuse, but he hasn’t so good to see he means it when he’s accepting responsibility for the goals.

So in one sentence you say you can't accept the concussion as an excuse for the 1st goal, then go on to say that you are not a doctor and don't know how he was feeling. Contradicting views in a single post.

Ever been concussed? If you haven't, then you would not have anything to back your assessment that it's not an excuse for the 1st goal other than bias.  I personally have not, but have read plenty of stories in the US from players who have had concussions and how it affects them, so when 26 of 30 tests performed come back positive, it's quite obvious the hit had an effect on the player.

Of course, if i put my tinfoil hat on, i'd also say it is just part of a cover him to make him feel better about himself.

Can just about buy that at a stretch for the first goal. Not having that for the other clanger though given it wasn’t his first time, happened the round previous vs Roma but got saved by the bar, there was no concussion then.

Actually, I can’t really accept it for the first goal either thinking about it because he had no problem rushing off his line to collect the ball in front of Benzema in the first place. He just wasn’t expecting Benzema to be switched on and stick his leg out.

Feel all this concussion stuff coming out is just a way to take the heat off him a bit. But, I’m not a doctor and I don’t know how he was feeling. Regardless though we’ve lost, not going to change anything, we all know Ramos is a c**t. Doesn’t look to be too bad for Karius so hopefully he can return to pre season as normal still.

Fair play to the lad though, so many players or managers would have come out and used this as an excuse, but he hasn’t so good to see he means it when he’s accepting responsibility for the goals.

I assume you know the effects of concussion?

as much as I absolutely love his saves against Newcastle & Everton, we need new no1. At least competition for him, someone who will help him (Mignolet and his mistakes won't help Karius tbh)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt89gy9CmRM&t

So in one sentence you say you can't accept the concussion as an excuse for the 1st goal, then go on to say that you are not a doctor and don't know how he was feeling. Contradicting views in a single post.

Ever been concussed? If you haven't, then you would not have anything to back your assessment that it's not an excuse for the 1st goal other than bias.  I personally have not, but have read plenty of stories in the US from players who have had concussions and how it affects them, so when 26 of 30 tests performed come back positive, it's quite obvious the hit had an effect on the player.

Of course, if i put my tinfoil hat on, i'd also say it is just part of a cover him to make him feel better about himself.

Yes, saying I’m not a doctor or know how he was feeling because it’s just IMO and none of us actually know and can only speculate and give our opinion.

That ok with you is it?