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      LFC Reds Poll

      Q. What will be your vote in the EU referendum?

      Remain
      33 (41.8%)
      Leave
      31 (39.2%)
      Not voting
      5 (6.3%)
      Undecided
      8 (10.1%)
      Not bothered either way
      2 (2.5%)

      Total Members Voted: 76

      Voting closed: Jun 24, 2016 09:29:22 pm

      EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me

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      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      May 25, 2016 09:22:26 pm
      Okay, I'll be completely honest and admit that I am totally clueless when it comes to politics and things like this.

      I know there is a news thread but as this is kind of big I think it should have it's own thread.

      So, I'm asking for help and advice here. I am totally undecided as I don't know anywhere near enough about it. At this point there is something from somewhere unbeknown even to me that is swaying me to remain. I'm easily swayable, though.

      I'm a co-owner of a small business that provides training and qualifications in construction with a large chunk of our work being carried out to Eastern European construction workers in London. Every now and again my company is reliant on ESF funding.

      Outside of work I have a three bedroomed semi detached house that I live in with my partner and our two sons aged one (June 13th) and six years old. Other quite big things I may or may not need to take into account is that my Dad has cancer and is currently, and has been receiving chemotherapy since early 2014 and I enjoy a pint or three when I get a chance.

      If you are pro 'remain' then why should I vote to stay? How did you come to your decision?

      If you are pro 'leave' then why should I vote to leave? How did you come to your decision?

      I'm totally up for adult discussions on immigration if it is relevant but please don't come at me with any 'Brexit, The Movie' sh*te. Especially as Kelvin McKenzie is in it.

      Maybe a 'Stay or Remain' poll as well please?

      Edit: Did I just make a poll? Get me.

      waltonl4
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #1: May 25, 2016 09:29:35 pm
      not just Europe but the world needs a reality check we need less Government from massive out of touch institutions and we need to pull the rug from under these massive corporations who feel they are above the law.
      David Wright
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #2: May 25, 2016 09:45:53 pm
      Okay, I'll be completely honest and admit that I am totally clueless when it comes to politics and things like this.

      I know there is a news thread but as this is kind of big I think it should have it's own thread.

      So, I'm asking for help and advice here. I am totally undecided as I don't know anywhere near enough about it. At this point there is something from somewhere unbeknown even to me that is swaying me to remain. I'm easily swayable, though.

      I'm a co-owner of a small business that provides training and qualifications in construction with a large chunk of our work being carried out to Eastern European construction workers in London. Every now and again my company is reliant on ESF funding.

      Outside of work I have a three bedroomed semi detached house that I live in with my partner and our two sons aged one (June 13th) and six years old. Other quite big things I may or may not need to take into account is that my Dad has cancer and is currently, and has been receiving chemotherapy since early 2014 and I enjoy a pint or three when I get a chance.

      If you are pro 'remain' then why should I vote to stay? How did you come to your decision?

      If you are pro 'leave' then why should I vote to leave? How did you come to your decision?

      I'm totally up for adult discussions on immigration if it is relevant but please don't come at me with any 'Brexit, The Movie' sh*te. Especially as Kelvin McKenzie is in it.

      Maybe a 'Stay or Remain' poll as well please?

      Edit: Did I just make a poll? Get me.



      First of all, and most importantly, hope that your dad's treatment goes well, and makes a speedy recovery. I am voting to leave. I feel the UK should stand on it's own feet and not be ruled by European laws etc. Although not entirely sure, this is my own humble view.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #3: May 25, 2016 10:10:36 pm
      A vote to stay is a vote against democracy.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
      • Guest
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #4: May 25, 2016 10:12:21 pm
      I'm strongly pro remain. Basically I like the idea of working together and prospering together and the opportunities that it provides to those who might otherwise have not had such opportunities if we weren't in the EU.

      I think on principle it seems a good idea but then I would because my own political beliefs are more or less very centrist and it offers the sort of checks and balances that wouldn't allow one state or the other to descend into aggressive right wing or left wing regimes. If the UK left it would become even more neo liberal than it is at the moment. That the EU has worked towards emphasising a 'social Europe' is important as well - an EU that seeks to protect and encourage the provision of social welfare to European citizens. I wouldn't endanger the sort of social rights that the EU is protecting by opting to leave and pursue greater profit at the expense of normal citizens. The likes of Boris Johnson has a real cheek to bring up the examples of Norway - forgetting that their economy is based upon coordinated market economy, not the every man for himself liberal market economy that is prevalent within the UK and other English speaking nations.

      Moreso I've seen the GOOD that the EU does. It's offered some vital funding to areas of the UK that have needed it desperately. Liverpool's regeneration as a city has benefitted so much from the funding of the EU. It was only in the 1980s that the Tory cabinet minister Geoffrey Howe who shockingly advised that Liverpool be put into a process of 'managed decline'. It took the efforts of a pro EU Tory, Michael Heseltine to make sure that that wasn't going to be the case by tapping into various networks of funding and some considerable planning on his own part to help revive the city and various other northern regions. Such was his efforts and accessing EU cooperation that he got the Freedom of the City just a few years ago.

      Where I'm from I've seen EU funding help build excellent infrastructure that has been so important in keeping peripheral, isolated, island regions in Scotland alive and kicking. The funding streams offered to these areas have allowed them to continue to prosper on an economic level in areas of farming, tourism and energy. It's hard to stress just how fragile life can be in Orkney, Shetland or the Western Isles and in an era where domestic economic forces are very much centralised in Glasgow/Edinburgh and London, the EU really acts as a vital guardian for keeping these regions and other regions across the UK from eroding into insignificance.

      The EU is not perfect. We could bang on for days about why the European Commission should be elected and the failures of the Euro and the debatable policies that were enforced to save it. But when we are very much in an age that is ever more integrated and where the world's problems have become globalised, whether it's global warming or the general global economy, we have to work as a collective to try and solve these really threatening and scary prospects. Supranational organisations like the EU provide that arena by which such problems could be solved. It's not perfect but the potential capacity for it to do good could be go even further than the benefits it has provided for cities like Liverpool and rural areas like Shetland/Orkney etc.
      « Last Edit: May 25, 2016 10:33:45 pm by Frankly, Mr Shankly »
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #5: May 25, 2016 10:47:28 pm
      First of all, and most importantly, hope that your dad's treatment goes well, and makes a speedy recovery. I am voting to leave. I feel the UK should stand on it's own feet and not be ruled by European laws etc. Although not entirely sure, this is my own humble view.

      Thank you, although, it's important that I stress that the reason I put that it in is to highlight that he has been getting drugs to make him better free of charge from the NHS - I do not know if the NHS would be affected by either outcome.

      A vote to stay is a vote against democracy.


      Really. How is that Daz?


      I'm strongly pro remain. Basically I like the idea of working together and prospering together and the opportunities that it provides to those who might otherwise have not had such opportunities if we weren't in the EU.

      I think on principle it seems a good idea but then I would because my own political beliefs are more or less very centrist and it offers the sort of checks and balances that wouldn't allow one state or the other to descend into aggressive right wing or left wing regimes. If the UK left it would become even more neo liberal than it is at the moment. That the EU has worked towards emphasising a 'social Europe' is important as well - an EU that seeks to protect and encourage the provision of social welfare to European citizens. I wouldn't endanger the sort of social rights that the EU is protecting by opting to leave and pursue greater profit at the expense of normal citizens. The likes of Boris Johnson has a real cheek to bring up the examples of Norway - forgetting that their economy is based upon coordinated market economy, not the every man for himself liberal market economy that is prevalent within the UK and other English speaking nations.

      Moreso I've seen the GOOD that the EU does. It's offered some vital funding to areas of the UK that have needed it desperately. Liverpool's regeneration as a city has benefitted so much from the funding of the EU. It was only in the 1980s that the Tory cabinet minister Geoffrey Howe who shockingly advised that Liverpool be put into a process of 'managed decline'. It took the efforts of a pro EU Tory, Michael Heseltine to make sure that that wasn't going to be the case by tapping into various networks of funding and some considerable planning on his own part to help revive the city and various other northern regions. Such was his efforts and accessing EU cooperation that he got the Freedom of the City just a few years ago.

      Where I'm from I've seen EU funding help build excellent infrastructure that has been so important in keeping peripheral, isolated, island regions in Scotland alive and kicking. The funding streams offered to these areas have allowed them to continue to prosper on an economic level in areas of farming, tourism and energy. It's hard to stress just how fragile life can be in Orkney, Shetland or the Western Isles and in an era where domestic economic forces are very much centralised in Glasgow/Edinburgh and London, the EU really acts as a vital guardian for keeping these regions and other regions across the UK from eroding into insignificance.

      The EU is not perfect. We could bang on for days about why the European Commission should be elected and the failures of the Euro and the debatable policies that were enforced to save it. But when we are very much in an age that is ever more integrated and where the world's problems have become globalised, whether it's global warming or the general global economy, we have to work as a collective to try and solve these really threatening and scary prospects. Supranational organisations like the EU provide that arena by which such problems could be solved. It's not perfect but the potential capacity for it to do good could be go even further than the benefits it has provided for cities like Liverpool and rural areas like Shetland/Orkney etc.

      Seems a good honest post FMS and makes me wonder, even though Cameron wants to remain, what this Conservative government would do if it had us all to themselves.
      HScRed1
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #6: May 25, 2016 11:01:23 pm
      It's a funny one this for real democrats in that the European Parliament is about as undemocratic a institution you can imagine.

      However as a institution that can contain all types of extremes from rabid Tories wanting to destroy individual workers rights in the UK to ensuring access to our biggest trade market and all those advantages it's a no brainer.

      And of course the biggie the booze cruise!
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #7: May 25, 2016 11:01:26 pm
      Thank you, although, it's important that I stress that the reason I put that it in is to highlight that he has been getting drugs to make him better free of charge from the NHS - I do not know if the NHS would be affected by either outcome.

      Really. How is that Daz?


      Seems a good honest post FMS and makes me wonder, even though Cameron wants to remain, what this Conservative government would do if it had us all to themselves.


      Yeah - I think the fact that a strong and large Thatcherite contingent remains within the Conservative Party is not the nicest of things to know about. With a benign Labour Party in opposition you think such a contingent would like to take their chances while it is still there for them.

      Oh and by the way I should have mentioned this in my above post but I wish your dad well in his battle. Stay strong for him!
      s@int
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #8: May 25, 2016 11:38:45 pm
      I voted out. Should be all you need to know WAHS ;)
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #9: May 25, 2016 11:49:06 pm

      Which EU minister/president did you vote in to office?

      None as there are no votes.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       The President of the unelected executive arm of the European Union (EU) has vowed to block all right wing populists from power across the continent, shortly after acquiring the power to exert “far-reaching sanctions” on elected governments.

      Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, promised to exclude Norbert Hofer, the leader of Austria’s Freedom Party (FPÖ), from all EU decision-making if elected ahead of yesterday’s presidential vote.

      “There will be no debate or dialogue with the far-right,” the liberal bureaucrat told AFP.

      http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/24/eu-vows-use-new-powers-block-elected-far-right-populists-power/
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Dangerous game when people we haven't elected exclude opposing voices, that's not Democracy its Dictatorship, do as we say and fall in line or be excluded.
      « Last Edit: May 26, 2016 12:03:38 am by RedLFCBlood »
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #10: May 26, 2016 01:04:32 am
      Be following this thread as a yank interested in how you all view your government, but most importantly WAHS, prayers for your dad and his comfort and recovery.
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #11: May 26, 2016 07:54:04 am
      I voted out. Should be all you need to know WAHS ;)

      Not too sure what you mean here s@int?
      Beerbelly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #12: May 26, 2016 09:13:10 am
      Quote
      .   I'm a co-owner of a small business that provides training and qualifications in construction with a large chunk of our work being carried out to Eastern European construction workers in London. Every now and again my company is reliant on ESF funding.

      That's you paid off then.

      Incidentally, I bet there are no bribes incentives for training British stock.

      'Fear' is stronger than 'hope'.

      Ribapuru
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #13: May 26, 2016 09:56:07 am
      Vote stay:

      possible population of 85m+ when Turkey and other countries join EU.
      Population will still increase to around 75 million without new countries joining.
      NHS won't cope and under TTIP public sector can be purchased by offshore investors, where pharmaceutical giants could profit.
      At the mercy of new laws made by EU.
      No gaurentee that camerons emergency brake deal will go through the motions, it is not EU law yet and MEPs could still take action against it.
      Can't establish our own trade deals.
      Bailout bills.
      £18 billion membership fee with only 4.5 billion being spent on UK and we get no say on what it gets spent on and a £5 billon rebate leading to an overall £8.5 net contribution.

      Vote leave:

      2-3% Loss of GPD until trade deals are established.
      Possible 2 year extention on austerity.
      Holidays might be slightly more expensive.
      « Last Edit: May 26, 2016 10:06:16 am by Ribapuru »
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #14: May 26, 2016 12:04:19 pm
      That's you paid off then.

      Incidentally, I bet there are no bribes incentives for training British stock.

      'Fear' is stronger than 'hope'.



      It's about 50/50 with English and foreign learners and if I had no foreign learners it would be filled by just English learners. If you are suggesting I'd stay just because I currently work with a certain amount of foreigners then you'd be wrong. We put a certain amount of funding out there and it gets filled up. We aren't and cannot be selective of who gets it but if the foreigners aren't here then I won't lose work.
      « Last Edit: May 26, 2016 01:25:39 pm by what-a-hit-son »
      Beerbelly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #15: May 26, 2016 12:26:09 pm
      It's about 50/50 with English and foreign learners and if I had no foreign learners it would be filled by just English learners. If you are suggesting I'd stay just because I currently work with a certain amount of foreigners then you'd be wrong. We put a certain amount of funding out there and it gets filled up. We aren't and cannot be selective of who gets it but if the foreigners aren't here then I won't lose work.

      There's no bearing

      Do you get funding for the Brits or is it just discriminated towards the Europeans?
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #16: May 26, 2016 12:57:41 pm
      Do you get funding for the Brits or is it just discriminated towards the Europeans?

      Ah, I get you. For both, there is no advantage given to foreigners. Since last August it has got a lot more difficult for foreigners to get the funded training as they have to have a good knowledge of English and Maths now as Functional Skills tests have to be passed. We have found ourselves telling people that they will have to upskill their English communication skills before they can benefit from any of our training programmes. If they are applying to be on one of our training programmes then they are in work and will be needing our qualifications to stay within the particular sector that we operate in. For every candidate we do put on our programme us Training Providers are also now directed to promote British values at each visit.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #17: May 26, 2016 01:11:18 pm
      Ah, I get you. For both, there is no advantage given to foreigners. Since last August it has got a lot more difficult for foreigners to get the funded training as they have to have a good knowledge of English and Maths now as Functional Skills tests have to be passed. We have found ourselves telling people that they will have to upskill their English communication skills before they can benefit from any of our training programmes. If they are applying to be on one of our training programmes then they are in work and will be needing our qualifications to stay within the particular sector that we operate in. For every candidate we do put on our programme us Training Providers are also now directed to promote British values at each visit.

      Okay.

      Let me put it this way, if you weren't training Europeans ( foreigners ), would you still get funding from the ESF?
      waltonl4
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #18: May 26, 2016 01:15:57 pm
      look at the positives if we vote leave we can get shut of Cameron and Osbourne the most ineffective political partnership in history they have absolutely no vision for this country and have no idea what people want. We need devolved power not more centralised power.
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #19: May 26, 2016 01:21:02 pm
      Okay.

      Let me put it this way, if you weren't training Europeans ( foreigners ), would you still get funding from the ESF?

      If we weren't in The EU that funding wouldn't be available. Well I imagine it wouldn't anyway.

      I don't think I've been clear enough.

      When I said:

      Every now and again my company is reliant on ESF funding.

      I should have maybe said: It is possible that I could want ESF funding when our normal pot from our Government runs out, as an extra, until more from our own government becomes available again. I think this situation came about once but now, the chances of us needing ESF is rather low.

      Also, the English are European too hence why I called people not from England 'foreigners'. So I could differentiate the two as it was relevant.

      EDIT I didn't answer the question :D

      We would get given the ESF funding before we signed anybody up. There is no condition of who we let benefit from it.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #20: May 26, 2016 01:33:02 pm
      Quote
      If we weren't in The EU that funding wouldn't be available. Well I imagine it wouldn't anyway.. 

      If we weren't in the EU there wouldn't be a "large chunk of Eastern Europeans" in London suppressing the labour market.  :)
      Beerbelly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #21: May 26, 2016 01:35:05 pm
      Quote
      We would get given the ESF funding before we signed anybody up. There is no condition of who we let benefit from it.

      At f**king last.  :lmao:

      That was like pulling teeth!
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #22: May 26, 2016 01:40:43 pm
      At f**king last.  :lmao:

      That was like pulling teeth!

      Ha ha I know. Think I was just trying to explain as well as I could that my work doesn't really have that much bearing on my decision. I imagine I'd have more options if we stayed but the Government is already making it harder to carry out my line of work as it is.

      What do people think would happen to our borders if we left? Or what would be the difference from now if we left?

      I've just been reading about the Schengen Area and that we are the only one that uses this  :confused-smiley-013:
      Ribapuru
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #23: May 26, 2016 01:53:48 pm
      The funny thing about UKIP in this is they won't want to the leave campaign to win because their whole support is based on a want to leave, if remain wins they a lot of MPs and Voters will jump to the UKIP bandwagon.
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #24: May 26, 2016 01:59:19 pm
      Maybe this isn't the place but  could someone school me on the political parties in the UK? I hear about the Tories, the Labour Party, UKIP...not sure I understand what they all are for. Trying to figure out who I would align with (even though I don't really like pigeonholing myself into any one political party). 

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