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      Q. What will be your vote in the EU referendum?

      Remain
      33 (41.8%)
      Leave
      31 (39.2%)
      Not voting
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      8 (10.1%)
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      2 (2.5%)

      Total Members Voted: 76

      Voting closed: Jun 24, 2016 09:29:22 pm

      EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me

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      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #25: May 26, 2016 02:03:02 pm
      BNP - Hitler Level Far Right

      UKIP - Far Right

      Conservative - Right

      Labour - Left to Middle but probably edging more left with Corbyn

      Lib Dems - Far left

      The Green Party - Super Left

      That's what my mate in the office just told me anyway ;)
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #26: May 26, 2016 02:05:27 pm
      BNP - Hitler Level Far Right

      UKIP - Far Right

      Conservative - Right

      Labour - Left to Middle but probably edging more left with Corbyn

      Lib Dems - Far left

      That's what my mate in the office just told me anyway ;)

      Ok when folks talk about Tories....or Thatcher...that's Conservative party I assume?
      Ribapuru
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #27: May 26, 2016 02:10:23 pm
      Maybe this isn't the place but  could someone school me on the political parties in the UK? I hear about the Tories, the Labour Party, UKIP...not sure I understand what they all are for. Trying to figure out who I would align with (even though I don't really like pigeonholing myself into any one political party).
      Tory are the party that seem to help the rich get richer and make the poor suffer even more, they do the opposite of robin hood, take from the poor and give to the rich. Elitism and capitalism is a good way to describe.
      Labour party want to share the wealth more equal but seem allowed a free ride for jobless people.
      UKIPs main policy is to exit the EU, they are a bit like conservatives but conservatives are split between staying and going, which is why so many conservatives left and joined UKIP. UKIP are quite new and a lot of people don't trust them.
      There is also Lib dems that are a small party now, somewhere in the middle of labour and conservatives.
      Green party is a bit like labour but put an emphasis about taking care of the environment.
      I have no idea what monster raving loony party stand for, they are an actual party believe it or not.
      Tories are the conservative party, they kind of have two names.
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #28: May 26, 2016 02:17:12 pm
      Ok when folks talk about Tories....or Thatcher...that's Conservative party I assume?

      Yes mate. The people who have their people hound the lower class of this country and swarm all over them with force at the hint of any benefit cheating whilst they look down at that 'scum' whilst planning their next tax avoidance scheme.

      Those ones.

      I think they are why I am swaying to wanting to stay. The thought of a room full of people discussing what happens with things that affect me and my family provides me with some comfort that there is likely to be people fighting my corner or at the very least providing balance. The thought of everybody walking out of that door and then it closing tight with just me, Cameron and Co left behind actually scares me.
      s@int
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #29: May 26, 2016 02:41:38 pm
      Not too sure what you mean here s@int?

      I am probably one of the few on here that can really remember what life was really like before we joined mate. We can never go back to what we had unfortunately, but we can re-establish the good trade we had with the Colonies, get back to growing things that we might actually use and stop carrying the French farmers on our backs every year.

      Big business doesn't want us to leave, just as big business wants as many migrants/immigrants/people over here as possible. Cheap labour and more desperate people to sell their goods to, ...what's not to like. Sadly for the average person in this country it means lower wages, housing shortages reduced services, NHS waiting lists, Benefit cuts and higher food prices along a whole range of goods.

      Does anyone really believe that the greedy incompetent politicians that we have will defend this country from "unfair practices" in the E.U...Nah me neither. The only real shortage in Brussels is for brown paper bags.

      I could go on mate but I'm starting to bore myself never mind you. If you care about your kids future vote out.

      BTW your youngest has the same birthday as me and Alan Hansen   

         

      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #30: May 26, 2016 02:45:37 pm
      I am probably one of the few on here that can really remember what life was really like before we joined mate. We can never go back to what we had unfortunately, but we can re-establish the good trade we had with the Colonies, get back to growing things that we might actually use and stop carrying the French farmers on our backs every year.Big business doesn't want us to leave, just as big business wants as many migrants/immigrants/people over here as possible. Cheap labour and more desperate people to sell their goods to, ...what's not to like. Sadly for the average person in this country it means lower wages, housing shortages reduced services, NHS waiting lists, Benefit cuts and higher food prices along a whole range of goods.Does anyone really believe that the greedy incompetent politicians that we have will defend this country from "unfair practices" in the E.U...Nah me neither. The only real shortage in Brussels is for brown paper bags.I could go on mate but I'm starting to bore myself never mind you. If you care about your kids future vote out.

      Food for though s@int.

      BTW your youngest has the same birthday as me and Alan Hansen

      And my older brother who is a complete c**t.
      JD
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #31: May 26, 2016 03:11:39 pm
      Was in favour of staying but now sitting on the fence WAHS, and can't see my opinion swinging dramatically either way.

      Primarily because I don't think it will make a huge impact either way.  Big business benefit from immigration, and they always control the government, so if we left they would just have a very 'open-door' immigration system to replace the current free movement.
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #32: May 26, 2016 03:12:55 pm
      Tory are the party that seem to help the rich get richer and make the poor suffer even more, they do the opposite of robin hood, take from the poor and give to the rich. Elitism and capitalism is a good way to describe.
      Labour party want to share the wealth more equal but seem allowed a free ride for jobless people.
      UKIPs main policy is to exit the EU, they are a bit like conservatives but conservatives are split between staying and going, which is why so many conservatives left and joined UKIP. UKIP are quite new and a lot of people don't trust them.
      There is also Lib dems that are a small party now, somewhere in the middle of labour and conservatives.
      Green party is a bit like labour but put an emphasis about taking care of the environment.
      I have no idea what monster raving loony party stand for, they are an actual party believe it or not.
      Tories are the conservative party, they kind of have two names.

      Ok, so it sounds like I  wouldn't fit in any of those parties then.

      I'm all for capitalism as I think it's the only fair economic system. But the Christian side of me is all for helping and taking care of the poor. I just don't think the government should be telling me how to do it or taking my money in the name of helping the poor, only to help lazy people that have no desire to actually help themselves (and I should differentiate...I don't think  the system  suckers and  the poor are the same, there are people that are legitimately poor not of their own doing or their own lack of trying, they just need help...I'm all for helping them). Immigration is a tough on eh? I have no issue with legal immigrants coming into my country to contribute to the fabric of the country and to try and make a better life. That's basically what this country was founded on. What I don't like is illegal immigrants that skirt the rules, skirt taxes, take advantage of government services (which then makes them more expensive  for people that are here legally) and then bi*ch and moan because people want to kick them out. Then again...for those illegals that are here already, there are a good many that contribute  more to this country than some of the dead beat citizens we have leaching off the system...and I think we should try to find a way to make those people citizens...even though they shouldn't have skirted the rules to start with. Big corporations aren't evil per se...but many times the people in charge of them are. Corruption starts at the single person level and then as it goes unfettered, spreads into a larger entity. Punishing corporations isn't the answer...punishing crooks and criminals is. And in America, most of the crooks and criminals have jobs in the government. Ultimately I think I should be responsible for myself and my family first and foremost, and then for my fellow man after that.  If the government would  get out of my way with their corrupt taxation policies and their politically correct policing of what people can feel, do or say, I'd be able to be the kind of citizen that I think would ultimately be able to do that very thing...take care of my family and then take care of my fellow citizens as well. But the government sticks it's nose into my business far too much and as far as I'm concerned,  that's when I  pull back, tell everyone to eff off and leave me alone.

      So what party would I fit into in the UK? ;D
      Arab Scouse
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #33: May 26, 2016 03:25:12 pm
      Ok, so it sounds like I  wouldn't fit in any of those parties then.

      I'm all for capitalism as I think it's the only fair economic system. But the Christian side of me is all for helping and taking care of the poor. I just don't think the government should be telling me how to do it or taking my money in the name of helping the poor, only to help lazy people that have no desire to actually help themselves (and I should differentiate...I don't think  the system  suckers and  the poor are the same, there are people that are legitimately poor not of their own doing or their own lack of trying, they just need help...I'm all for helping them). Immigration is a tough on eh? I have no issue with legal immigrants coming into my country to contribute to the fabric of the country and to try and make a better life. That's basically what this country was founded on. What I don't like is illegal immigrants that skirt the rules, skirt taxes, take advantage of government services (which then makes them more expensive  for people that are here legally) and then bi*ch and moan because people want to kick them out. Then again...for those illegals that are here already, there are a good many that contribute  more to this country than some of the dead beat citizens we have leaching off the system...and I think we should try to find a way to make those people citizens...even though they shouldn't have skirted the rules to start with. Big corporations aren't evil per se...but many times the people in charge of them are. Corruption starts at the single person level and then as it goes unfettered, spreads into a larger entity. Punishing corporations isn't the answer...punishing crooks and criminals is. And in America, most of the crooks and criminals have jobs in the government. Ultimately I think I should be responsible for myself and my family first and foremost, and then for my fellow man after that.  If the government would  get out of my way with their corrupt taxation policies and their politically correct policing of what people can feel, do or say, I'd be able to be the kind of citizen that I think would ultimately be able to do that very thing...take care of my family and then take care of my fellow citizens as well. But the government sticks it's nose into my business far too much and as far as I'm concerned,  that's when I  pull back, tell everyone to eff off and leave me alone.

      So what party would I fit into in the UK? ;D

      Not a fan of Bernie Sanders are you then? :P
      Shabs
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #34: May 26, 2016 03:35:36 pm
      The country needs to bet back to doing what it does best and thats manufacturing...f**k this financial Canary Wharf malarkey....

      Europe needs England more than England needs Europe & we need to re-establish ties with the commonwealth countries again which will become stronger emerging markets...

      Tired of all this bailout austerity crap we face in the EU...

      Revert back to old currencies too...
      s@int
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #35: May 26, 2016 03:40:04 pm
      Ok, so it sounds like I  wouldn't fit in any of those parties then.

      I'm all for capitalism as I think it's the only fair economic system. But the Christian side of me is all for helping and taking care of the poor. I just don't think the government should be telling me how to do it or taking my money in the name of helping the poor, only to help lazy people that have no desire to actually help themselves (and I should differentiate...I don't think  the system  suckers and  the poor are the same, there are people that are legitimately poor not of their own doing or their own lack of trying, they just need help...I'm all for helping them). Immigration is a tough on eh? I have no issue with legal immigrants coming into my country to contribute to the fabric of the country and to try and make a better life. That's basically what this country was founded on. What I don't like is illegal immigrants that skirt the rules, skirt taxes, take advantage of government services (which then makes them more expensive  for people that are here legally) and then bi*ch and moan because people want to kick them out. Then again...for those illegals that are here already, there are a good many that contribute  more to this country than some of the dead beat citizens we have leaching off the system...and I think we should try to find a way to make those people citizens...even though they shouldn't have skirted the rules to start with. Big corporations aren't evil per se...but many times the people in charge of them are. Corruption starts at the single person level and then as it goes unfettered, spreads into a larger entity. Punishing corporations isn't the answer...punishing crooks and criminals is. And in America, most of the crooks and criminals have jobs in the government. Ultimately I think I should be responsible for myself and my family first and foremost, and then for my fellow man after that.  If the government would  get out of my way with their corrupt taxation policies and their politically correct policing of what people can feel, do or say, I'd be able to be the kind of citizen that I think would ultimately be able to do that very thing...take care of my family and then take care of my fellow citizens as well. But the government sticks it's nose into my business far too much and as far as I'm concerned,  that's when I  pull back, tell everyone to eff off and leave me alone.

      So what party would I fit into in the UK? ;D

      Depends which you prefer mate. If you prefer to be lied to before you are robbed, the Tory party is for you. If however you prefer false promises before you are robbed, go with Labour. If you prefer a party that agrees that you should be robbed but never quite plucks up the courage to do more than cheer on the robbers, go with the Libs. 

      Although over the last 15 years or so it's become harder and harder to differentiate between them, but you can always tell a politician... he's the one with his hand in your pocket.
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #36: May 26, 2016 03:44:00 pm
      Not a fan of Bernie Sanders are you then? :P

      Not a fan of Sanders, Hillary or Trump.

      They are all egomaniacle douche wranglers.
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #37: May 26, 2016 03:44:37 pm
      Depends which you prefer mate. If you prefer to be lied to before you are robbed, the Tory party is for you. If however you prefer false promises before you are robbed, go with Labour. If you prefer a party that agrees that you should be robbed but never quite plucks up the courage to do more than cheer on the robbers, go with the Libs. 

      Although over the last 15 years or so it's become harder and harder to differentiate between them, but you can always tell a politician... he's the one with his hand in your pocket.

      Hahaha....good analogy that.
      Shabs
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #38: May 26, 2016 03:47:02 pm
      Not a fan of Sanders, Hillary or Trump.

      They are all egomaniacle douche wranglers.

      Ted Cruz?... Please be no... ;D

      I prefer Sanders to Trump.
      I prefer Trump to Hillary.

      I was against Trump being elected but I'm for it now.....
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #39: May 26, 2016 03:48:48 pm

      Let's put it this way,  I'll be writing my own name on the presidential ballot in November.  There wasn't one person from any party that I could in good conscience vote for.
      Shabs
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #40: May 26, 2016 03:51:48 pm
      Let's put it this way,  I'll be writing my own name on the presidential ballot in November.  There wasn't one person from any party that I could in good conscience vote for.

      It's a shame men like Ron Paul will never make office ....

      Anyways...EU....
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #41: May 26, 2016 03:56:14 pm
      To not completely derail this thread, my personal opinion as an outsider would be why would one of the most influential countries in the world being the UK, want to be part of a larger governing body that at best won't always have her best interests in mind and at worst, may NEVER have her best interests in mind?
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #42: May 26, 2016 03:56:54 pm
      It's a shame men like Ron Paul will never make office ....

      Anyways...EU....

      I could have voted for his son Rand without too much consternation...not ideal but loads better than the others. His dad is just a little bit too north of crazy for me.
      Arab Scouse
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #43: May 26, 2016 03:58:19 pm
      To not completely derail this thread, my personal opinion as an outsider would be why would one of the most influential countries in the world being the UK, want to be part of a larger governing body that at best won't always have her best interests in mind and at worst, may NEVER have her best interests in mind?

      you should start a US presidential election thread, I'm interested in American politics. :D
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #44: May 26, 2016 03:59:10 pm
      Lobbying in the European Union, also referred to officially as "European interest representation", is the activity of representatives of diverse interest groups or lobbies who attempt to influence the executive and legislative authorities of the European Union through public relations or public affairs work. The Treaty of Lisbon introduced a new dimension of lobbying at the European level that is different from most national lobbying. At the national level, lobbying is more a matter of personal and informal relations between the officials of national authorities, but lobbying at the European Union level is increasingly a part of the political decision-making process and thus part of the legislative process. "European interest representation" is part of a new participatory democracy within the European Union.

      ...

      In other words big business such as BMW/VW etc etc influencing legislation/laws, legislation/laws that protect their best interests other than mine or yours.
      Shabs
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #45: May 26, 2016 04:01:19 pm
      you should start a US presidential election thread, I'm interested in American politics. :D

      Easy...

      Bush 4years.
      Clinton 8years.
      Bush 8 years.
      Obama 8 years.
      Clinton 8 years.

      Most Americans have only ever known an Bush/Clinton presidency with the Obama jammed inbetween.....
      David Wright
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #46: May 26, 2016 04:12:30 pm
      Going off topic, I think the present Tory government is less extreme than the Thatcherite lot. Labour to my mind have lost touch with working people in my view. Although whoever is in power should not be bound by European law.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #47: May 26, 2016 04:17:08 pm
      I am probably one of the few on here that can really remember what life was really like before we joined mate. We can never go back to what we had unfortunately, but we can re-establish the good trade we had with the Colonies, get back to growing things that we might actually use and stop carrying the French farmers on our backs every year.

      Big business doesn't want us to leave, just as big business wants as many migrants/immigrants/people over here as possible. Cheap labour and more desperate people to sell their goods to, ...what's not to like. Sadly for the average person in this country it means lower wages, housing shortages reduced services, NHS waiting lists, Benefit cuts and higher food prices along a whole range of goods.

      Does anyone really believe that the greedy incompetent politicians that we have will defend this country from "unfair practices" in the E.U...Nah me neither. The only real shortage in Brussels is for brown paper bags.

      I could go on mate but I'm starting to bore myself never mind you. If you care about your kids future vote out.

      BTW your youngest has the same birthday as me and Alan Hansen   

         



      We surely need to get one thing absolutely straight here - immigration to the UK is NOT the fault of the EU but was a direct result of the institutional reforms implemented by Blair's government after his second election victory in 2001. The control of immigration is a matter entirely down to the UK government and not the European Union.

      What occurred after 2001 was the joining up of government - connecting the Treasury to the Home Office - to the point that the Home Office became subservient to Treasury demands/interests. Economic think tanks began informing and directing Home Office policy (such as the IPPR and the establishment of the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) ). Now as you so rightly note - immigrants bring in fairly cheap labour and are an easy access to economic growth and so it proved and because of the dominance of the Treasury in dictating policy on to the Home Office a succession of Home Secretaries delivered home office policies and laws that were passed with economic interests at heart, hence the reason why immigration levels exploded and were exploited by millions from countries within and without the EU.

      The barriers that kept net migration fairly low pre Blair were successful in keeping Britain as the most restrictive and hardest to get to nation in Europe. That all changed with the radical institutional reforms of government that Blair implemented and despite his posturing on getting net migration down to the 'tens of thousands', Cameron's lot continue to very much work with and support the changes that have in turn helped their economic policy. All this happened BECAUSE of changes made within UK government under Blair and have NOTHING to do with the EU.

      If the UK wants to get net migration levels back down to the 'tens of thousands' as it was in the decades prior the 00s, then breaking the current institutional setup and the 'joined up government' between the Treasury and the Home Office, reverting back to its pre Blair state, is what would be required, not exiting the EU. Leaving the EU will not make a jot of difference to net migration if such an institutional setup within government exists.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #48: May 26, 2016 04:49:56 pm
      Ok, so it sounds like I  wouldn't fit in any of those parties then.

      I'm all for capitalism as I think it's the only fair economic system. But the Christian side of me is all for helping and taking care of the poor. I just don't think the government should be telling me how to do it or taking my money in the name of helping the poor, only to help lazy people that have no desire to actually help themselves (and I should differentiate...I don't think  the system  suckers and  the poor are the same, there are people that are legitimately poor not of their own doing or their own lack of trying, they just need help...I'm all for helping them). Immigration is a tough on eh? I have no issue with legal immigrants coming into my country to contribute to the fabric of the country and to try and make a better life. That's basically what this country was founded on. What I don't like is illegal immigrants that skirt the rules, skirt taxes, take advantage of government services (which then makes them more expensive  for people that are here legally) and then bi*ch and moan because people want to kick them out. Then again...for those illegals that are here already, there are a good many that contribute  more to this country than some of the dead beat citizens we have leaching off the system...and I think we should try to find a way to make those people citizens...even though they shouldn't have skirted the rules to start with. Big corporations aren't evil per se...but many times the people in charge of them are. Corruption starts at the single person level and then as it goes unfettered, spreads into a larger entity. Punishing corporations isn't the answer...punishing crooks and criminals is. And in America, most of the crooks and criminals have jobs in the government. Ultimately I think I should be responsible for myself and my family first and foremost, and then for my fellow man after that.  If the government would  get out of my way with their corrupt taxation policies and their politically correct policing of what people can feel, do or say, I'd be able to be the kind of citizen that I think would ultimately be able to do that very thing...take care of my family and then take care of my fellow citizens as well. But the government sticks it's nose into my business far too much and as far as I'm concerned,  that's when I  pull back, tell everyone to eff off and leave me alone.

      So what party would I fit into in the UK? ;D

      It's hard to say. What's your opinions on welfare? I think I know your opinions on gun control as well but even issues like that would make it easier to say. That said I think you're definitely straddling the Conservative/UKIP divide.
      FL Red
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      Re: EU Referendum Topic for Dummies Like Me
      Reply #49: May 26, 2016 05:44:00 pm
      It's hard to say. What's your opinions on welfare? I think I know your opinions on gun control as well but even issues like that would make it easier to say. That said I think you're definitely straddling the Conservative/UKIP divide.

      Welfare as is implemented by the US is horsesh*t. There are people here on welfare that live better doing nothing at all (and not attempting to do anything at all) as people that are actually trying to better themselves.  I don't believe in giving someone something for nothing, at least not from the government, with my tax dollars. If I want to give someone charity, it should be up to me.

      If welfare was implemented as a system to help those in need, until they can get back on their feet and can help themselves...then I could probably get on board with that type of system as long as it's not as wasteful as the one we have here.

      As for guns...that's just really not an issue that should be as divisive as it is. It's one that the media uses to further their agenda and sell papers when the news cycle is slow. Guns are a problem but violent people are the bigger problem. I guarantee you that 99% of legal gun owners aren't ever going to cause an issue with guns. The people that perpetrate these "mass"  shootings are almost always (maybe 100%) people that circumvented laws to get the weapons they used. Yes I own firearms, yes  I like to shoot occasionally,  although I haven't in over a year, and no I'd hate to ever have to make a decision to defend my family by taking another person's life, but I'd like to have that option should the situation ever arise. I think there are a lot of irresponsible people that own guns legally.  I know there are probably 5 times as many irresponsible people that own vehicles and drive them everyday.  In fact I know of a young girl that was killed the other day by a distracted (texting or talking on the phone while driving,  which by the way is illegal) driver in a tractor trailer.

      Anyway...I digress...don't want this to devolve into  that type of thread as I try to stay out of those...just giving you some background as requested.  I'm sure I get pigeonholed as very conservative, and I may be on a lot of things, but I do like to think I have  an open mind and an open heart if someone's willing to present arguments that are grounded in logic that I  understand. Course that might be my problem....not enough brainpower for higher  understanding  ;D

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