Philippe Coutinho (PSG)

I find it amazing how so many on here under rate Firmino, just for comparison Sterling in his last season here scored 7 goals with 7 assists and even in the year with Suarez only managed 9 goals and 5 assists.

Firmino 11 goals with 9 assists.

So in terms of output which is how attacking players are measured how is Sterling better than Firmino.

Maybe the fact that Raheem has spent most of last season on the bench be a indicator.

Did Sterling not get 11 in all comps in his last season, same as Rob last season. Also, think Sterling had less round him - Lambo/Mario/Borini.
Don't think I'm underrating Rob, thought he did well, and can improve.

I find it amazing how so many on here under rate Firmino, just for comparison Sterling in his last season here scored 7 goals with 7 assists and even in the year with Suarez only managed 9 goals and 5 assists.

Firmino 11 goals with 9 assists.

So in terms of output which is how attacking players are measured how is Sterling better than Firmino.

Maybe the fact that Raheem has spent most of last season on the bench be a indicator.

Indeed. Next season, I can only see Bobby improving further still.

This forum is so bizarre some times. Or maybe its blind optimism.

Overall people want to sell Coutinho, Sturridge, Benteke who do you think we are going to get in attack?? Who is out there? And dont say higuain, cause there's no way in hell we're buying a 28 year old at full price. Its not what we do now.

Did Sterling not get 11 in all comps in his last season, same as Rob last season. Also, think Sterling had less round him - Lambo/Mario/Borini.
Don't think I'm underrating Rob, thought he did well, and can improve.

its not all about stats.

Sterling offers something different to Firmino as a player. BLIND PACE. Which we lack in attacking areas.

This forum is so bizarre some times. Or maybe its blind optimism.

Overall people want to sell Coutinho, Sturridge, Benteke who do you think we are going to get in attack?? Who is out there? And dont say higuain, cause there's no way in hell we're buying a 28 year old at full price. Its not what we do now.

Mmm.... No

When you say overall it would indicate the vast majority

I call bullshit or at least fishing hyperbole if you are suggesting that the vast majority on here want to sell those players

Good effort though

its not all about stats.

Sterling offers something different to Firmino as a player. BLIND PACE. Which we lack in attacking areas.

Blind pace is right , but that's all. Because he hasn't improved one jot since he left us still running up blind alleys flapping his arms about . Only looked good when surrounded by greatness  , that ship sailed long ago .

This forum is so bizarre some times. Or maybe its blind optimism.

Overall people want to sell Coutinho, Sturridge, Benteke who do you think we are going to get in attack?? Who is out there? And dont say higuain, cause there's no way in hell we're buying a 28 year old at full price. Its not what we do now.

I'm sure there are plenty out there that we don't know about.

I personally think Coutinho is replaceable. His best position seems to be in a midfield 3, but Klopp doesn't play that, does he? So the way I see it, we can improve on the left that is occupied by Coutinho. As for #10 role, idk, I feel Firmino and Lallana would be more than capable enough especially with their defensive capabilities.

As much as I love Coutinho and want him to stay and played in the 10 role, I wouldn't be overly concerned and disappointed if he left for big money. Not like we are losing a Torres, Masch, Alonso, Gerrard or Suarez , right?

Quote from harrydunn08 on Today at 01:40:28 pm
Selling Coutinho won't be a problem IF we get good value for him AND we replace him with players who both match better his productuon AND appreciate in value after coming to LFC.

Fixed that [from a football fan's PoV] and yes... it really is as simple as that. 

If only it really was that simple, but we both know that it's not.  Replacing a 20 year old on 30k per week wages with a 33 year old on 100k per week wages would be detrimental ASSUMING their contributions to the playing side were exactly the same....

Age, wages, nationality, availability (injury prone), versatility, tactical flexibility, etc, all play a role in the actual value to the playing side -- as well as the one field productivity and statistical output 

Fair points, but for what it's worth:

Selling Torres improved us.  Suarez had better production than Torres in the years following his sale to Chelsea, and the money recouped from selling Torres (which was invested into Suarez and Carroll -- about 58M in total I think) grew into about 90M from the combined sales of Luis and Andy.

Selling Sterling had little to no impact on our team.  Firmino had basically the exact same production this season as Raheem did, and the current combined value of Benteke and Firmino is probably still about even with the current value of Raheem. 

Selling Suarez is what crippled us.  None of Lovren, Lallana, Markovic, Lambert, or Balotelli have had the type of impact we needed them to have and the combined value of this group has probably depreciated from the 90M we spent on them to around 40M - 50M. 

Selling Coutinho won't be a problem IF we get good value for him AND we replace him with players who both match his productuon (10 goals and 10 assists in all competitions isn't that difficult to replace) AND appreciate in value after coming to LFC.

Selling Torres didn't improve us because it took two years, the introduction of Danny Sturridge, the promise of Barca coming in for Suarez if he performed well and being only in one competition from early in that season in order to see a significant improvement in both him and the team. There's a lot of redaction over Suarez's performances prior to 12/13 which gives us a two year window of absolutely no improvement whatsoever. There's also the fact that Suarez was never bought as a replacement for Torres but as a partner. The replacement for Torres was Carroll. Case in point right there.

Selling Coutinho is a bad idea for the very reason why we've been so unsuccessful with our replacements under FSG. It takes time to scout and properly assess a player, never mind agree terms with both club and player's representatives and the fact we're doing this as a reaction to a player leaving, and thus leaving ourselves insufficient time to do things properly is one of the reasons why our transfer record is so bad. It's bad enough in a normal off season, it's made doubly difficult in a Copa America/Euros competition Summer.

It's also a bad idea because of the message it sends. It makes us look like a club without ambition and if we're a club without ambition then why would a player want to join us? Because we're a 'Big club'? Big clubs don't sell their best players year in, year out. Big clubs challenge for honours each and every year, even if they're unsuccessful in winning them. A reputation as a club without ambition makes it harder to buy the kind of players needed to propel us higher than mid-table. That not only affects potential transfers but also potential investment. The richest investors don't want to invest in mid-table sides, they want their name/logo splashed all over Champions League advertising boards. A lack of investment makes the affordability of signing the players needed to compete that much more difficult.

So then there's a spurious argument that I should trust in Klopp. It's spurious because as the man himself has said, he's not a messiah, he's not infallible and has and will continue to make mistakes. Every player is a gamble and in a year where we have one game a week for most of the season, do we really want to gamble on replacing a player we know does perform well most weeks - and yes, he's inconsistent but on the balance of averages, he's still one of our best players - for a player who is likely as not moving to a new country, a new league, a new culture and will take time to settle in? It's not about trust or lack thereof, it's about selling him being an unnecessary gamble.

So when you examine the situation from all angles, selling Coutinho at this stage is a mistake we can ill afford to make. If he wants out, he can give us a season and we can spend the next twelve months preparing for that eventuality. We can scout players, we can examine their stats in detail, we can talk to their representatives and basically do due diligence in order to reduce to risk to as low as it can possibly get rather than being rushed into another knee-jerk reaction and avoid another Carroll/Balotelli/Benteke situation.

Selling Torres didn't improve us because it took two years, the introduction of Danny Sturridge, the promise of Barca coming in for Suarez if he performed well and being only in one competition from early in that season in order to see a significant improvement in both him and the team. There's a lot of redaction over Suarez's performances prior to 12/13 which gives us a two year window of absolutely no improvement whatsoever. There's also the fact that Suarez was never bought as a replacement for Torres but as a partner. The replacement for Torres was Carroll. Case in point right there.

Selling Coutinho is a bad idea for the very reason why we've been so unsuccessful with our replacements under FSG. It takes time to scout and properly assess a player, never mind agree terms with both club and player's representatives and the fact we're doing this as a reaction to a player leaving, and thus leaving ourselves insufficient time to do things properly is one of the reasons why our transfer record is so bad. It's bad enough in a normal off season, it's made doubly difficult in a Copa America/Euros competition Summer.

It's also a bad idea because of the message it sends. It makes us look like a club without ambition and if we're a club without ambition then why would a player want to join us? Because we're a 'Big club'? Big clubs don't sell their best players year in, year out. Big clubs challenge for honours each and every year, even if they're unsuccessful in winning them. A reputation as a club without ambition makes it harder to buy the kind of players needed to propel us higher than mid-table. That not only affects potential transfers but also potential investment. The richest investors don't want to invest in mid-table sides, they want their name/log splashed all over Champions League advertising boards. A lack of investment makes signing the players needed to compete that much more difficult.

So then there's a spurious argument that I should trust in Klopp. It's spurious because as the man himself has said, he's not a messiah, he's not infallible and has and will continue to make mistakes. Every player is a gamble and in a year where we have one game a week for most of the season, do we really want to gamble on replacing a player we know does perform well most weeks - and yes, he's inconsistent but on the balance of averages, he's still one of our best players - for a player who is likely as not moving to a new country, a new league, a new culture and will take time to settle in? It's not about trust or lack thereof, it's about selling him being an unnecessary gamble.

So when you examine the situation from all angles, selling Coutinho at this stage is a mistake we can ill afford to make. If he wants out, he can give us a season and we can spend the next twelve months preparing for that eventuality. We can scout players, we can examine their stats in detail, we can talk to their representatives and basically do due diligence in order to reduce to risk to as low as it can possibly get rather than being rushed into another knee-jerk reaction and avoid another Carroll/Balotelli/Benteke situation.

Kenny (while Hodgson was manager) came in and basically pleaded with Torres to stay and the whole idea of getting Suarez was to partner up with him. Fernando's head was turned and he was going to go and failed miserable while collecting a winners medal from the bench.

Suarez got his head turned by Arsenal and we binned them off, then his head got turned by Barca and that was that as it is for most S.American players.

If a player really want's to leave your not going to stop them, its naive at best to think that if they really want to go that you can force them at gunpoint to stay and be a team player.

I am sure Jürgen and even FSG don't want Phil to go; that being said if his head is turned I have little doubt both the ownership & manager will let him know not to let the door hit you on the way out...If you don't want to be here f**k off.

You seem to want the manager/club to get on they're knees and suck these players off. Phil wants to go to Barca...Goetze wants to go to Barca..both these players will be sitting on the bench watching matches and coming on as subs @70 minutes to give the starters a break..if that is what they want for themselves then so be it.

If Phil wants to leave, then F**k it and go for Payet. Incredible skills...

If Phil wants to leave, then f**k it and go for Payet. Incredible skills...

Payet is 29.

Coutinho is 6 years younger and will be world class in 2 years.

Had you even heard of Payet 2 years ago?

For what its worth I always thought you cant play Cout and Firm in the same midfield, not enough whoomph.

If I was honest, I would keep Coutinhio , but if he wants to f off then Firminhio can fill his boots. We need steel in midfield , anyone who watched both finals we got to would see that. At times both of the afore mention disappeared.

If we keep saying "if our best players want to go  fuckem" we are going to finish up a midtable side... oh wait we already are! 

We have to make this a club that top player want to come to, that top players want to stay at and the only way to do that is by showing that we are as ambitious as they are and you don't do that by selling your best players every f**king season.

We have to start paying them the wages that top players get at other clubs, competing again with other clubs for the best players rather than running away like little girls whenever a club bigger than Stoke put in a bid. Most of all we have to show them that we are not going to be bullied into selling our best players or get blown away with mediocre offers for them.

We are not a selling club...at least we are not if we ever want any sort of consistent success. 

If we keep saying "if our best players want to go  fuckem" we are going to finish up a midtable side... oh wait we already are! 

We have to make this a club that top player want to come to, that top players want to stay at and the only way to do that is by showing that we are as ambitious as they are and you don't do that by selling your best players every f**king season.

We have to start paying them the wages that top players get at other clubs, competing again with other clubs for the best players rather than running away like little girls whenever a club bigger than Stoke put in a bid. Most of all we have to show them that we are not going to be bullied into selling our best players or get blown away with mediocre offers for them.

We are not a selling club...at least we are not if we ever want any sort of consistent success. 

5th highest wage bill in the league suggests we are paying our players more than they deserve.

5th highest wage bill in the league suggests we are paying our players more than they deserve.

And we are paying players less than they deserve in some cases. Coutinho - 75k per week.

5th highest wage bill in the league suggests we are paying our players more than they deserve.

Nah mate, our wage bill has been inflated for years because we bring in free transfers/low cost players like Joe Cole, Jovanavic, Rodrigues, Doni, Bellamy, Toure, Milner, and Matip that can demand much higher wages because they are free transfers. Then we have the losers club, still being paid by us while they play for other teams like Balotelli and Markovic for example.

Highest paid players

Wayne Rooney - £260,000 (€358,861)
Sergio Aguero - £240,000 (€331,359)
Yaya Toure - £240,000 (€331,359)
Eden Hazard - £220,000 (€303,652)
David Silva - £200,000 (€276,063)
Mesut Özil - £190,000 (€262,212)
Raheem Sterling - £180,000 (€248,411)
Cesc Fabregas - £170,000 (€234,611)
Kevin de Bruyne - £170,000 (€234,611)
John Terry - £160,000 (€220,850)

We also pay 25% less wages than the 4th highest paid club Arsenal. £40million a season less.

Where did your post go HScRed1 ?

Nah mate, our wage bill has been inflated for years because we bring in free transfers/low cost players like Joe Cole, Jovanavic, Rodrigues, Doni, Bellamy, Toure, Milner, and Matip that can demand much higher wages because they are free transfers. Then we have the losers club, still being paid by us while they play for other teams like Balotelli and Markovic for example.

Highest paid players

Wayne Rooney - £260,000 (€358,861)
Sergio Aguero - £240,000 (€331,359)
Yaya Toure - £240,000 (€331,359)
Eden Hazard - £220,000 (€303,652)
David Silva - £200,000 (€276,063)
Mesut Özil - £190,000 (€262,212)
Raheem Sterling - £180,000 (€248,411)
Cesc Fabregas - £170,000 (€234,611)
Kevin de Bruyne - £170,000 (€234,611)
John Terry - £160,000 (€220,850)

We also pay 25% less wages than the 4th highest paid club Arsenal. £40million a season less.

My figures were for last year mate so argument still stands because only Jimmy Milner qualifies.

Highest paid players

Wayne Rooney - £260,000 (€358,861)
Sergio Aguero - £240,000 (€331,359)
Yaya Toure - £240,000 (€331,359)
Eden Hazard - £220,000 (€303,652)
David Silva - £200,000 (€276,063)
Mesut Özil - £190,000 (€262,212)
Raheem Sterling - £180,000 (€248,411)
Cesc Fabregas - £170,000 (€234,611)
Kevin de Bruyne - £170,000 (€234,611)
John Terry - £160,000 (€220,850)

WC, EC, CL, League & cup winners on that list, then you have Sterling...

Where did your post go HScRed1 ?

Sorry bud changed my mind of what I was trying to say after a bottle of wine!

Sorry bud changed my mind of what I was trying to say after a bottle of wine!

No probs, I was wondering if I was seeing things.

My figures were for last year mate so argument still stands because only Jimmy Milner qualifies.

Milner and Toure had higher wages because they were free,  Ballotelli and Markovic as players we paid to play for other clubs.

The point is that we pay 25% less than the 4th highest payer and they have won nothing since Adam was a lad.

Then we wonder why players choose other clubs, or want to leave. Low wages (comparatively) , no trophies, no CL, no ambition. Suarez wanted to leave to go to Arsenal ffs.

Top players won't hang around if they see other more ambitious clubs want them. You need to give them a reason and poor wages is not a good reason.   

No probs, I was wondering if I was seeing things.
Milner and Toure had higher wages because they were free,  Ballotelli and Markovic as players we paid to play for other clubs.

The point is that we pay 25% less than the 4th highest payer and they have won nothing since Adam was a lad.

Then we wonder why players choose other clubs, or want to leave. Low wages (comparatively) , no trophies, no CL, no ambition. Suarez wanted to leave to go to Arsenal ffs.

Top players won't hang around if they see other more ambitious clubs want them. You need to give them a reason and poor wages is not a good reason.   

But surely we pay what we can afford to pay atm and this will reduce compared to the Top 4 clubs as our commercial name admittedly way to late takes advantage of our global name.