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      Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)

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      KS67
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #23: Jun 22, 2016 12:25:55 am

      Top memeing mate.

      Again you miss the point entirely ....really just woosh right over the head.

      I understand your point.

      I just don't agree with it. You think because Klopp shopped at the lower end of the market in the first few years of his time at Dortmund that means it is always how he intends to work.

      I'd dispute that. The latter years at Dortmund, as he got more to spend and lost players, was actually a period of relatively high spending in comparison to the rest of the Bundesliga and certainly compared to his earlier seasons at Dortmund.

      Klopp at Dortmund attempted to buy better, more 'ready' players as the side progressed. Our side is further along development than the Dortmund side he inherited.

      You're correct he turned some low fee players into really top players but that wasn't under the same expectation we have at Liverpool recently or in the same league as we compete. But to say Klopp is only interested in performing alchemy simply isn't true, it just fits with how some are seeking to excuse the transfer strategy imposed on him.

      As for comparisons to Mainz, he has managing Mainz. Of course he was working on a shoe string.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #24: Jun 22, 2016 12:31:02 am
      It just strikes me as completely ridiculous people can claim he is in total control yet he isn't able to shift the overall strategy.

      New television deal, increased stadium capacity and Jürgen Klopp at the helm and he has freely chosen Leicester's second choice leftback, Zielinski and Mane?

      It's so ridiculous surely no one believes that.

      So of course the budget plays a huge part in the transfer process.

      If you worked for any normal company where you are in charge of purchasing then you often don't set the overall budgets or have free choice of suppliers but you have power over the stuff within your remit.

      But you wouldn't claim you had total control over purchasing. The criteria within which Klopp is working is not going to change from Rodgers and as a result he has to deal with many of the same issues, compromising on the quality of players bought.

      Why do you assume the players signed/targets are not that of Klopp's say rather than Klopp's say for a strategy that FSG are looking to carry on with?

      A lot of people seem to be pretty much criticizing the players we are being linked with but if you look back at Klopp's time at Dortmund to being with us now, he seems to be looking to carry out the same sort of business. I get what the likes of Michael (BigMick) and others are saying about signing "proven" players but here are some of the signings that Klopp made at Dortmund, where he had control over transfers. A team where he had a lot of success.

      Mats Hummels - Looked far from having a decent career when he was at Munich. Loaned and then signed for £4mill by Dortmund at around 19/20 years of age, and now regarded as one of the best defenders around and will be back at Munich next season after a big fee.

      Piszczek - Free transfer to Dortmund at the age of 25 having hardly brightened the world of football and was relatively unknown but has been a key player for Dortmund and one of the most solid FBs around.

      Lewandowski - A decent goal record in Poland led to a £4mill move to Dortmund at the same age as Hummels, 19/20. Was a back up player to the side at first but is now regarded as one of the best strikers around and since gone to Munich. Free transfer due to his contract but if he moved now, he would command a massive fee.

      Reus - Although already had a lot of promise and an ever growing reputation so more known than the ones I have listed so far, he was still only 22/23 when he went to Dortmund for around £13mill.

      Gündoğan - Virtually an unknown 20 year old when he signed for Dortmund but is now one of the best players around in his position and secured a move to City for a big fee.

      Not forgetting the likes of Kagawa, Subotic and Bender either.
      Also am I right in saying he has only spent £20mill+ twice? Mkhitaryan at around £24mill and Immobile at £22mill. On of those worked out and one didn't.

      If them players were in that position and signing for us now, the views would be exactly the same to what the views are for our current signings/targets when in actual fact, there is every chance Klopps signings could go on to have the exact same impact as the ones listed above.
      I think it's a case of Rodgers making so many bad signings to try and match the clubs player philosophy along with not really knowing what sort of team he wanted/strategy etc that has gotten people almost desperate now to see us sign "proven" players.

      Klopp's not an idiot and he wont be backed into a corner over people above him trying to dictate transfers. He knows what kind of team he wants to build, he knows exactly what areas need to be improved on and he will have players he feels can genuinely make a difference on his list of targets.
      « Last Edit: Jun 22, 2016 12:41:09 am by 7-King Kenny-7 »
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #25: Jun 22, 2016 12:38:36 am
      I'd dispute that. The latter years at Dortmund, as he got more to spend and lost players, was actually a period of relatively high spending in comparison to the rest of the Bundesliga and certainly compared to his earlier seasons at Dortmund.

      Yup 2014 was the biggest spend in they're history, that one worked out not so good.

      So we will agree to disagree and leave it at saying if you expect him to go out and buy his squad the way you are speaking your going to be nothing but disappointed...because he probably has 35-40 million + sales this window...and what you want is probably somewhere around 100-150 million this window.

      Like the man said:


      Quote
      Nobody starts a development from the top of the table,' he added. 'Let’s try to be the hardest team to beat in the world first.
      Expectations can be a really big problem. It’s like a backpack – 20 kilos more!

      At the moment, the LFC family is too nervous, pessimistic and in doubt. They don’t believe in this moment.

      I believe it’s the biggest challenge in world football, but I was never a guy for the easy way. Nobody is patient any more or satisfied with results.

      Everything in life takes time, the only thing nobody gives time is development.'


      I will go with the gaffer on this one and again we will just agree to disagree; I personally plan on enjoying the journey with this guy from start to finish.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #26: Jun 22, 2016 12:41:57 am
      Klopp's not an idiot and he wont be backed into a corner over people above him trying to dictate transfers. He knows what kind of team he wants to build, he knows exactly what areas need to be improved on and he will have players he feels can genuinely make a difference on his list of targets.

      That's what I keep saying...if FSG is holding Klopp back then I am pretty damn sure he will walk and we will all know about it; which in effect will be the end of the FSG/LFC relationship.

      Give the guy a little benefit of the doubt, a little patience and some time.
      KS67
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #27: Jun 22, 2016 12:46:23 am
      Yup 2014 was the biggest spend in they're history, that one worked out not so good.

      So we will agree to disagree and leave it at saying if you expect him to go out and buy his squad the way you are speaking your going to be nothing but disappointed...because he probably has 35-40 million + sales this window...and what you want is probably somewhere around 100-150 million this window.

      Like the man said:



      I will go with the gaffer on this one and again we will just agree to disagree; I personally plan on enjoying the journey with this guy from start to finish.

      People may not like my interpretation of the situation but I'm far from thick or a kneejerker.

      I think people are pretty selective about what aspects of the Dortmund story are played up. It is beyond doubt that Klopp, partially through having players poached, looked to shift his transfer business as time progressed at Dortmund. It wasn't always Lewandowski for a pittance.

      We aren't in Dortmund's position of 2007 and we are in a league with potentially eight decent teams next season including us.

      There is a huge risk in not adequately backing this manager and I don't necessarily think it would take 150m either. Jürgen Klopp is the best possible candidate we could have gotten but he could have chosen far easier jobs than us. Frankly we are lucky to have him, but we do so I'd like to see us make the most of it.

      I am more than happy to agree to disagree with you on this but no amount of telling me to "keep the faith in Jürgen" is going to convince me that we've got a coherent and plausible transfer strategy until I see evidence over the next few windows.
      s@int
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #28: Jun 22, 2016 12:51:12 am
      People tend to forget that Dortmund were a club who were 200 million in debt and were so desperate they had to take a loan from Bayern Munich just to pay their players wages only a couple of years before Jürgen joined them. No wonder he had to watch the pennies in his early days there.

      I don't see any reason why he should still shop at Lidl when he could be shopping at Waitrose if not at Harrods now.

      https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/02/bayern-munich-dortmund-champions-league

       

      harrydunn08
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #29: Jun 22, 2016 12:57:26 am
      I don't see any reason why he should still shop at Lidl when he could be shopping at Waitrose if not at Harrods now.

      Maybe Jürgen genuinely believes he will get more bang for his buck by shopping in the bargain bin.  Maybe he wants a major overhaul in the next season or two and needs to buy several players rather than 1 or 2 mega signings. 
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #30: Jun 22, 2016 01:02:28 am
      People tend to forget that Dortmund were a club who were 200 million in debt and were so desperate they had to take a loan from Bayern Munich just to pay their players wages only a couple of years before Jürgen joined them. No wonder he had to watch the pennies in his early days there.

      I don't see any reason why he should still shop at Lidl when he could be shopping at Waitrose if not at Harrods now.

      https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/02/bayern-munich-dortmund-champions-league

       



      Again Gary over the past 5 years we are behind United, City & Chelsea in net spend and 5th behind those 3 + Arsenal on wages...I don't think he needs to shop the blue light special either...but that does not mean he won't.
      s@int
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #31: Jun 22, 2016 01:03:35 am
      Maybe Jürgen genuinely believes he will get more bang for his buck by shopping in the bargain bin.  Maybe he wants a major overhaul in the next season or two and needs to buy several players rather than 1 or 2 mega signings. 

      There are plenty of maybe's mate, not seen anything yet that convinces me that we will get success faster, more assured, or more sustained buying prospects than we would buying quality players.
      s@int
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #32: Jun 22, 2016 01:11:40 am
      Again Gary over the past 5 years we are behind United, City & Chelsea in net spend and 5th behind those 3 + Arsenal on wages...I don't think he needs to shop the blue light special either...but that does not mean he won't.


      I think the point is that we were and are already behind them. If someone is in front in a Ferrari you are not going to catch them in a mini.

      Some of you may be happy trundling along taking in the sights as we drift further and further off the pace, but I want to see a genuine effort to pass them and not by asking our manager to get out and push. 

      I don't want to get into the stupid argument in the other thread about Brendan, but (this is were I stupidly get into the argument) if Brendan was still here the accusations of our manager being frightened of and unable to handle big name players would be flying around... fact.   
      FL Red
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #33: Jun 22, 2016 01:44:47 am
      Again Gary over the past 5 years we are behind United, City & Chelsea in net spend and 5th behind those 3 + Arsenal on wages...I don't think he needs to shop the blue light special either...but that does not mean he won't.


      So we are behind those teams and they happen to be the ones we need to overtake? So how do we do that if we don't compete financially?
      FL Red
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #34: Jun 22, 2016 01:45:36 am
      Maybe Jürgen genuinely believes he will get more bang for his buck by shopping in the bargain bin.  Maybe he wants a major overhaul in the next season or two and needs to buy several players rather than 1 or 2 mega signings. 

      You only need to worry about bang for the buck if you are on a strict budget, otherwise you just want BANG!

      Or

      BOOM!
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #35: Jun 22, 2016 01:47:52 am
      I think the point is that we were and are already behind them. If someone is in front in a Ferrari you are not going to catch them in a mini

      A whole other discussion there mate...you and I and everyone else knows that were not going to spend £150 million to catch up to them this season; Ingerland has a better chance of winning the Euro's than that happening and it's something that we are not going to change now is it?
      s@int
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #36: Jun 22, 2016 02:16:16 am
      A whole other discussion there mate...you and I and everyone else knows that were not going to spend £150 million to catch up to them this season; Ingerland has a better chance of winning the Euro's than that happening and it's something that we are not going to change now is it?

      No mate...that is the whole discussion. We don't need to spend £150million, we just need to show some ambition and with a bit of German engineering we will be able to compete. We may not be able to afford the leather seats, but I am certainly not going to write off our chances because I believe we can afford the right engine.

      We do imo need to do it now though because I think another season without CL could see us have real problems...

      We have a golden opportunity this season (for one season only). We need to take full advantage of that... 

      Or we can continue to trundle along as we are and firmly establish ourselves as another mid table club that has the odd good cup run.




       

       
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #37: Jun 22, 2016 02:28:33 am
      You only need to worry about bang for the buck if you are on a strict budget, otherwise you just want BANG!

      Or

      BOOM!

      Not true.  I don't live on a strict budget, but I always look for the best value whenever I buy something.  It doesn't matter if it is the most expensive, the cheapest, or somewhere in between -- overall value is what is the most important.  The size of the budget shouldn't matter....
      FL Red
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #38: Jun 22, 2016 02:44:44 am
      Not true.  I don't live on a strict budget, but I always look for the best value whenever I buy something.  It doesn't matter if it is the most expensive, the cheapest, or somewhere in between -- overall value is what is the most important.  The size of the budget shouldn't matter....
      Some things I buy for value and like a good deal, but others I pay extra for quality. Surely most people are the same?
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #39: Jun 22, 2016 02:57:33 am
      Some things I buy for value and like a good deal, but others I pay extra for quality. Surely most people are the same?

      I pay extra for quality, as long as it can be justified.  It's why I drive a Honda rather than a Chevy, and also why I drive a Honda rather than a Mercedes.  The Honda  (in my opinion) offers the best value -- a blend of quality parts, top level customer service, and cost effectiveness.  Often times the cheapest option isn't actually the best value. 
      FL Red
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #40: Jun 22, 2016 03:04:39 am
      I pay extra for quality, as long as it can be justified.  It's why I drive a Honda rather than a Chevy, and also why I drive a Honda rather than a Mercedes.  The Honda  (in my opinion) offers the best value -- a blend of quality parts, top level customer service, and cost effectiveness.  Often times the cheapest option isn't actually the best value. 

      You should be driving a Tesla, better than a Honda and a Mercedes.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #41: Jun 22, 2016 03:15:41 am

      I actually quite like what I'd seen of Robertson when Hull was in the Prem two seasons ago, for what it's worth. Not sure he's that finished product we need, though. Still needs to develop a bit.
      FL Red
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #42: Jun 22, 2016 03:36:21 am
      Hull? Really?
      American Red
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #43: Jun 22, 2016 04:21:34 am

      At that rate I don't understand how we'd be improving on Brad Smith. Even with Chilwell I'm not sure we'd be improving all that much, certainly not for the money.
      Del Boca Vista
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #44: Jun 22, 2016 05:52:30 am
      we don't beat our rivals to the top of the league by spending more money than them, we beat them by getting a better team together and beating them down in the 90 minute opportunities we get. people overcomplicate it all for themselves. if Klopp wants a LB who plys his trade at Leicester City get excited because he could be the best LB in the world in a few years. or do you know better than him?
      HScRed1
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      Re: Ben Chilwell (Leicester City)
      Reply #45: Jun 22, 2016 08:07:30 am
      Another year of Moreno and his moronic defending   :mad:

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