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      Q. Should we go out and buy in January?

      Yes, we need at least 2 or more signings
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      The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?

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      Kopite78
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #414: Jan 24, 2017 04:53:26 pm
      I'm sure we can and will mate.  We'll never pay what the other clubs do, certainly not when they first arrive and there's absolutely no way would I want us to go totally overboard with fees and wages just to prove we can, like utd did with Pogba.  Ffs they had no competition for him, it was all a big dick swinging excercise and a "wow!! look at us, we can spend anything we want".

      I'm not talking about going overboard,  I dont think I've said that or even suggested it

      I just want to compete and win things,  I don't think you have to be one way or the other in terms of say what Utd did with Pogba or attempting to do it completely the other way
      I just think there's flexibility in our numbers and I think we could  comfortably go a bit further and make sure we aren't short in numbers or quality like we seem to be a little rght now
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #415: Jan 24, 2017 04:55:03 pm
      And once again the point is missed.

      It wasn't that we'd used more players so therefore we don't need more players but that with better players squad size doesn't matter so much.

      The "improve the starting 11" rather than bringing in more squaddies was my point.



      I know what you mean, and for sure, if we can improve our starting 11 right now I think we should be looking to do so. But for me it goes beyond that. Having a stronger bench could also make a massive difference to our season. Think of a midfielder who might not walk into our team, but could offer more from the bench or when we're missing Hendo or Lallana to injury, than Stewart or Can. Or a pacey wide player who is not so raw and coming back from long term injury such as Ojo, as another example. I'm just saying it's somewhere in between for me - buying for numbers is obviously stupid and pointless, but we're still a bit short in the squad, and it goes beyond the starting 11. I actually think Mignolet; Clyne, Matip, Lovren, Milner; Hendo, Wijnaldum, Lallana; Coutinho, Firmino, Sturridge/Origi is a cracking lineup, and improving on it is not so simple (perhaps the most easily replaceable is the goalkeeper). At the same time, however, our best defender (Matip), our best defensive midfielder (Hendo) and our best finisher (Sturridge) all seem to struggle with injuries, and we don't have enough immediate replacements.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #416: Jan 24, 2017 05:07:55 pm
      I pulled the information from David Conn's stuff he has done on the guardian in the last few years

      QPR were a basket case when you look at their figures, actually in 12/13 they were running at 128% to turnover, 91% in 11/12 and 85% in 14/15
      But there's clubs the other way that balance it the opposite direction too.
      Norwich 49% in 11/12
      Swansea 54% in 11/12
      Hull 51% in 13/14
      Palace 51% in 13/14
      Burnley 37% in 14/15
      Just as some examples, it balances the other way for the basket case clubs

      I just wonder at times if we could push it a little more in terms of wages we can offer the top players to try to bridge that gap


      For this type of info I highly recommend reading The Swiss Ramble (in case you don't know it already): http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/

      You can filter by all the posts which mention LFC: http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Liverpool
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #417: Jan 24, 2017 06:12:14 pm
      I'm not talking about going overboard,  I dont think I've said that or even suggested it

      I just want to compete and win things,  I don't think you have to be one way or the other in terms of say what Utd did with Pogba or attempting to do it completely the other way
      I just think there's flexibility in our numbers and I think we could  comfortably go a bit further and make sure we aren't short in numbers or quality like we seem to be a little rght now

      I know you're not and I did agree that there is enough "give" in the system to do so as and when the time comes.

      So for example, we bought 7 players last year, 2016, (6 really as Matip was free).  2 are still developing, 1 will become a coach, 1 was an experienced backup and 3 were starters.  Wages are as follows £15k for the young lads, £5k for the coach, £55k for the backup, £70k for the freebie and £90k each for the other 2.

      The 3 starters have undeniably improved us, so would they have improved us more if they were paid more money?  Would you be happy if we bring in 3 or more similar players this year, on similar wages?

      These discussions about money spent, wages spent, quality bought, who we need, comparisons with rivals etc etc are great but until Jürgen arrived the consensus on the forum was/appeared to be that we need the "right players" regardless of cost, that spending for spending sake had gotten us nowhere except for a blouted squad of mainly crap, yet after a mini run of bad form/results suddenly the money, fees and wages are once again a problem.

      I just don't get it.

      I know what you mean, and for sure, if we can improve our starting 11 right now I think we should be looking to do so. But for me it goes beyond that. Having a stronger bench could also make a massive difference to our season. Think of a midfielder who might not walk into our team, but could offer more from the bench or when we're missing Hendo or Lallana to injury, than Stewart or Can. Or a pacey wide player who is not so raw and coming back from long term injury such as Ojo, as another example. I'm just saying it's somewhere in between for me - buying for numbers is obviously stupid and pointless, but we're still a bit short in the squad, and it goes beyond the starting 11. I actually think Mignolet; Clyne, Matip, Lovren, Milner; Hendo, Wijnaldum, Lallana; Coutinho, Firmino, Sturridge/Origi is a cracking lineup, and improving on it is not so simple (perhaps the most easily replaceable is the goalkeeper). At the same time, however, our best defender (Matip), our best defensive midfielder (Hendo) and our best finisher (Sturridge) all seem to struggle with injuries, and we don't have enough immediate replacements.

      I've no idea mate but then I don't spend that much time drooling over or coveting other teams players and I don't play footy manager or any other footy games to make a list.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #418: Jan 24, 2017 06:15:01 pm
      I've no idea mate but then I don't spend that much time drooling over or coveting other teams players and I don't play footy manager or any other footy games to make a list.

      I wasn't suggesting you should come up with a list :D Just saying that better quality in our bench/rotation than what we currently have would be a big help towards mounting a real challenge for the rest of the season.
      Kopite78
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #419: Jan 24, 2017 06:33:43 pm
      I know you're not and I did agree that there is enough "give" in the system to do so as and when the time comes.

      So for example, we bought 7 players last year, 2016, (6 really as Matip was free).  2 are still developing, 1 will become a coach, 1 was an experienced backup and 3 were starters.  Wages are as follows £15k for the young lads, £5k for the coach, £55k for the backup, £70k for the freebie and £90k each for the other 2.

      The 3 starters have undeniably improved us, so would they have improved us more if they were paid more money?  Would you be happy if we bring in 3 or more similar players this year, on similar wages?



      I have literally no issues with what or who came in last summer apart from the fact that it was probably 2 or 3 short and that's being evidenced in front of our eyes right now in the meat of the season

      What I'm saying is that there is room on the wages to surely have signed 2 or 3 more and we would still have been perfectly fine on the books

      I know hindsight is wonderful and I'm not gnashing my teeth or anything, I'm just saying that maybe we need to and there looks to be room in the budget to get two or three more around that figure who are able to start. I'm not really bothered what the wages are but we have reduced wage % to budget, maybe now we're stable we should look to invest more to not get to the stage where we look think like we are now?

      It wasn't meant to be a complaint just an observation

      I wasn't suggesting you should come up with a list :D Just saying that better quality in our bench/rotation than what we currently have would be a big help towards mounting a real challenge for the rest of the season.

      Exactly the point,  I was just using the figures to show that it would break the bank to do so

      I'm all for developing kids, I'm all for doing it within reason

      But I'm also all for winning the league and our squad is currently a little short in depth to do so
      AZPatriot
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #420: Jan 24, 2017 06:38:10 pm
      What I'm saying is that there is room on the wages to surely have signed 2 or 3 more and we would still have been perfectly fine on the books

      I think if you asked Jürgen today he would say the same thing and wished he had done so....that being said it's water under the bridge now.
      reddebs
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #421: Jan 24, 2017 06:38:38 pm
      I wasn't suggesting you should come up with a list :D Just saying that better quality in our bench/rotation than what we currently have would be a big help towards mounting a real challenge for the rest of the season.

      No doubt but then who'd have thought Can would go backwards after how he finished last season?  Who expected Grujic to be injured all season?  Fair enough most didn't expect him to be ready straight away but he would have been another option.  Ojo still raw but without a spinal fracture keeping him out for 4 months, with the development he showed last season could very easily have stepped in when required.  Did we really think Sturridge and Origi wouldn't contribute after their form last season? 

      We've had 28 different injuries, illnesses, knock and niggles since October 1st that has for varying degrees of severity meant we've been without

      Clyne
      Matip
      Lovren
      Milner
      Hendo
      Gini
      Lallana
      Can
      Coutinho
      Firmino
      Origi
      Sturridge
      Lucas
      Ings
      Grujic

      Some may not have been out for very long but the constant rearranging of players and the disruption that causes across all areas of the pitch was bound to have an effect.
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #422: Jan 24, 2017 06:43:10 pm
      What I'm saying is that there is room on the wages to surely have signed 2 or 3 more and we would still have been perfectly fine on the books

      Yep there probably is and I'm sure Jürgen is kicking something for not doing so.  Mind you knowing our luck they'd probably have been injured all season anyway.
      Swab
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #423: Jan 24, 2017 06:44:02 pm
      As a £ figure yes but as a % no

      Wages are going up so that would inevitably mean that the overall wage bill in £ would be at its highest but as a % they have been steadily decreasing it in their time

      Our highest % was actually 1999/00 when it was around the 90% mark

      But in recent times 10/11 was a peak of around 70% they reduced that to 64% in 12/13 and now around 56%

      In that time 10/11 turnover was around £185m and now it's around £300m

      Both figures are equally viable though, although as a percentage of turnover only adds some confusion IMO
      It certainly gives us 2 ways of looking at it, and let's be honest here, the wage bill back then certainly needed trimming, especially looked at as a percentage of turnover.

      In the 50% range seems to be the magic figure that most football analysts/economists agree on, and this is backed up pretty well in the excellent book "Soccernomics" as is Klopps philosophy of doing more on the training field.

      So the myth that FSG are reducing the wage bill is untrue unless you look at it as a reduction in terms of percentage of turnover, which seems a convoluted way of making a simple stat seem like something else, otherwise, our wage bill has gone up :) as I stated ;), because our average pay has actually gone up.

      Different arguments can be made depending on how you look at it, as ever.

      Edit to add, I just saw your other post, and I think you're absolutely right that we can (easily) afford to bring in players and not have it affect us adversely.
      However, we are also due to negotiate some new contracts starting with Coutinho, who appears to be underpaid compared to others in the squad at around £75k, so perhaps that should be considered as well.
      -LFC-
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #424: Jan 24, 2017 09:32:09 pm
      Both figures are equally viable though, although as a percentage of turnover only adds some confusion IMO
      It certainly gives us 2 ways of looking at it, and let's be honest here, the wage bill back then certainly needed trimming, especially looked at as a percentage of turnover.

      In the 50% range seems to be the magic figure that most football analysts/economists agree on, and this is backed up pretty well in the excellent book "Soccernomics" as is Klopps philosophy of doing more on the training field.

      So the myth that FSG are reducing the wage bill is untrue unless you look at it as a reduction in terms of percentage of turnover, which seems a convoluted way of making a simple stat seem like something else, otherwise, our wage bill has gone up :) as I stated ;), because our average pay has actually gone up.

      Different arguments can be made depending on how you look at it, as ever.

      Edit to add, I just saw your other post, and I think you're absolutely right that we can (easily) afford to bring in players and not have it affect us adversely.
      However, we are also due to negotiate some new contracts starting with Coutinho, who appears to be underpaid compared to others in the squad at around £75k, so perhaps that should be considered as well.

      Don't think it's a "myth" at all that FSG are reducing the wage bill. I would call it a "fact", as clearly the relevant figure in that regard is wages/turnover and not overall spend.
      MIRO
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #425: Jan 29, 2017 09:53:41 am
      IN :     0


      Stuck  it is .....   fighting for a CL place at best .
      bazspeedman
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #426: Jan 29, 2017 10:13:45 am
      No doubt but then who'd have thought Can would go backwards after how he finished last season?  Who expected Grujic to be injured all season?  Fair enough most didn't expect him to be ready straight away but he would have been another option.  Ojo still raw but without a spinal fracture keeping him out for 4 months, with the development he showed last season could very easily have stepped in when required.  Did we really think Sturridge and Origi wouldn't contribute after their form last season? 

      We've had 28 different injuries, illnesses, knock and niggles since October 1st that has for varying degrees of severity meant we've been without

      Clyne
      Matip
      Lovren
      Milner
      Hendo
      Gini
      Lallana
      Can
      Coutinho
      Firmino
      Origi
      Sturridge
      Lucas
      Ings
      Grujic

      Some may not have been out for very long but the constant rearranging of players and the disruption that causes across all areas of the pitch was bound to have an effect.

      No doubt Debs. This just reinforces the need to have a strong squad of minimum 22 quality players to cope with disruptions from injuries. This is the strength in depth the clubs we're supposed to be competing with have.

      We are way short of this and we were punching above our weight for the first four months of the season with the squad we have.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #427: Jan 29, 2017 04:19:20 pm
      Weird how when we had Rafa, Kenny and even Brendan in charge the cry was 'buy quality... spend big' but now?... Well the same folk suck FSG cock just before bending over to get their star ripped asunder 😁

      F***ing dickheads. 😄
      fckmediocrity
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #428: Jan 29, 2017 04:30:46 pm
      Weird how when we had Rafa, Kenny and even Brendan in charge the cry was 'buy quality... spend big' but now?... Well the same folk suck FSG cock just before bending over to get their star ripped asunder 😁

      F***ing dickheads. 😄

      They`ve struck gold when they got Jürgen as they can play the 'he did it at Dortmund on a budget' card  :).
      Kopite78
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #429: Jan 29, 2017 04:37:28 pm
      People want Dortmunds success, but neglect to realise that even in his first two seasons there (in an easier league eh?  :) ) he finished 6th and 7th I believe it was...

      It takes time to build his philosophy onto his players, they had bumps along the way before they went onto win the league's they won

      I just hope for our sakes we show some level of patience with whats being done here
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #430: Jan 29, 2017 04:51:11 pm

      I'd prefer Bayern's success Jon. Consistent and sustained. 

      fields of anny rd
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #431: Jan 29, 2017 08:52:25 pm
      No doubt but then who'd have thought Can would go backwards after how he finished last season?  Who expected Grujic to be injured all season?  Fair enough most didn't expect him to be ready straight away but he would have been another option.  Ojo still raw but without a spinal fracture keeping him out for 4 months, with the development he showed last season could very easily have stepped in when required.  Did we really think Sturridge and Origi wouldn't contribute after their form last season? 

      We've had 28 different injuries, illnesses, knock and niggles since October 1st that has for varying degrees of severity meant we've been without

      Clyne
      Matip
      Lovren
      Milner
      Hendo
      Gini
      Lallana
      Can
      Coutinho
      Firmino
      Origi
      Sturridge
      Lucas
      Ings
      Grujic

      Some may not have been out for very long but the constant rearranging of players and the disruption that causes across all areas of the pitch was bound to have an effect.

      That's why you pack your squad out Debs to make allowances for these eventualities. I would rather see us with good players unable to get into the team/fughting for a position in the squad rather than this set up of a great first team, a few solid back ups and nothing else.
      reddebs
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #432: Jan 29, 2017 10:13:31 pm
      That's why you pack your squad out Debs to make allowances for these eventualities. I would rather see us with good players unable to get into the team/fughting for a position in the squad rather than this set up of a great first team, a few solid back ups and nothing else.

      We all would but we can only have 25 players registered that are over 21, 8 of which have to be homegrown.  We improved our starting 11 after clearing out god knows how many squad players last summer who weren't good enough and there'll be several more that go this summer.  We will improve again but it was never going to happen all at once.

      Have faith and patience in the man to do what needs to be done.

      FL Red
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #433: Jan 29, 2017 10:24:15 pm
      We all would but we can only have 25 players registered that are over 21, 8 of which have to be homegrown.  We improved our starting 11 after clearing out god knows how many squad players last summer who weren't good enough and there'll be several more that go this summer.  We will improve again but it was never going to happen all at once.

      Have faith and patience in the man to do what needs to be done.

      Faith I'm full of, I struggle with patience but that's more my problem than his. I'm working on it.
      mcarz
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #434: Jan 29, 2017 11:05:56 pm
      Faith I'm full of, I struggle with patience but that's more my problem than his. I'm working on it.


      Pretty much me in a nutshell, hence why I lost it yesterday. My lack of patience isn't aimed at the manager though, for me it's aimed at the player. In a number of games this month the teams that Klopp has put out should have gotten the game done and dusted fairly comfortably but the player failed to stand up and be counted.

      I can cope with dropping points/games if I can see that the players on the pitch are going through hell to win the game for the fans and themselves but I haven't seen that for most of the past 7 or 8 games.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #435: Jan 29, 2017 11:06:54 pm
      We all would but we can only have 25 players registered that are over 21, 8 of which have to be homegrown.  We improved our starting 11 after clearing out god knows how many squad players last summer who weren't good enough and there'll be several more that go this summer.  We will improve again but it was never going to happen all at once.

      Have faith and patience in the man to do what needs to be done.



      Patience is great Debbs, but I've had 26 years of it already! I'm fully behind Jürgen, I went be calling fit his head anytime soon, but I am on record as not believing that his transfer philosophy will work in the Premier league, so its difficult for me to have this patience when I know it's possible to get there quicker.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: The January Transfer Window - Stick or Twist?
      Reply #436: Jan 29, 2017 11:08:31 pm
      Patience is great Debbs, but I've had 26 years of it already! I'm fully behind Jürgen, I went be calling fit his head anytime soon, but I am on record as not believing that his transfer philosophy will work in the Premier league, so its difficult for me to have this patience when I know it's possible to get there quicker.

      Honest.

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