Liverpool 2-2 West Ham United: In game and Post Match discussion

Anyone else think Origi and Firmino should be swapping positions?

Yeah, actually said that in the pre-match mate. What we gain in Origi's pace up top is lost in the ability to hold the ball and run the channels correctly.

In games where the opposition come out more then Origi might be better for the counter but against West Ham, who were mostly penned in their own half and for most of the 2nd half in their own box then Origi isn't too great.


What we gain with Bobby on the left was tonnes of space for Milner but unfortunately he did absolutely nothing with the great possession he had. To be fair to him he wasn't far away but he was still missing with those crosses and in the end that's crucial. Mane was giving Clyne the space on the opposite flank and in the end I think even Sadio gave up on passing to him.

We're such a dominant side with the ball that while defending might be their primary role they also get given the lion's share of the space when in the final third and right now we're being let down by the very poor quality coming in from Milner and Clyne. I'm not sure Moreno is the answer but I do think that TAA has to be pushing very hard for a place. I'm sure he'll get games overe Christmas and he'll have the chance to throw the challenge down. Just thinking about that delicious pass in to Bobby from TAA is exactly the type of quality we were missing today.

Nobody would, Karius is in his first season while Migs is in his 4th season. People are not as daft as you think they are.

this raises a good point.  with all the new managers stepping in. mancity F***ing up lately. manutd also stumbling.  tottenham should be gone as well. chelsea is a current surprise and there is arsenal.....  if karius needed some settling time, migs wouldve been a better fit for this year because we have a decent chance of top four and possibly more. 

burnley
bournemouth
westham

get some result from those and we would be top or right up there


also personally i like karius and i trust klopp. but i truly think mig has much better reaction and shot stopping ability, karius looks to be more calm and is better with his feet. but he isnt commanding the back at all currently.  command that back so you dont get howlers being launched at you at close range

when a keeper is 'under question', no matter what kind of goal he concedes it becomes his fault.

It reminds me of when the media decided Dudek was rubbish because Kirkland was on our bench and any time we let a goal in it was dudeks fault, even when he was saving hard shots and teams were scoring the rebound (e,g the game away at Basel 3:3).

There was nothing glaring in those goals for me to say karius made a mistake.

Anyone else think Origi and Firmino should be swapping positions?

Simple answer..No

Klopp admitted all week they were angry after the Bournmouth result so i was expecting a reaction today got off to the best start early goal thought here we go 3 or 4 nil job sadly did not happen once again Henderson passing across the park or back no pressing forward his corners are terrible eventually Milner started taking them all that hands up in the air rubbish indicating a special training ground plan then the corner is crap oh how we needed a midfeilder with driving on force likes of jimmy case sammy lee or souness character to take the came to them on a positive martin tyler mentioned we were unbeaten at home in the league for a year only winners this week end chelsea and arsenal

Klopp admitted all week they were angry after the Bournmouth result so i was expecting a reaction today got off to the best start early goal thought here we go 3 or 4 nil job sadly did not happen once again Henderson passing across the park or back no pressing forward his corners are terrible eventually Milner started taking them all that hands up in the air rubbish indicating a special training ground plan then the corner is crap oh how we needed a midfeilder with driving on force likes of jimmy case sammy lee or souness character to take the came to them on a positive martin tyler mentioned we were unbeaten at home in the league for a year only winners this week end chelsea and arsenal

Is there a full stop famine on here or something?

So what if the corner was crap? Get on with it and move onto the next one. Simple.

Last 4 games we seem to have hit a brick wall, and it's being compounded by very poor goal keeping.

Karius' confidence is clearly shot and he hasn't gotten over his goalkeeping debacle at the Vitality stadium last week. He's under the spotlight and clearly isn't coping. Any keeper worth their salt would have managed to have saved Payet's free-kick. His starting position on that FK was naive as much as it was amateurish.

And his indecision for their second goal made it easy for their striker. For his own sake (similar to De Gea in his first season), the lad needs taking out the team, his supposed confidence and cocky-ness is still in the changing room and I've seen enough now to say that he is going to be a liability for the foreseeable.

I know some have said 'hang on, he punched a ball though!' - as an argument for Karius - but that really isn't enough at this level lads. 

Origi, Firmino and to a lesser extent Mane were again all disappointing. Sturridge's return can't come soon enough, and though he is branded lazy and selfish he puts no lesser work in up top than Origi. We're missing his movement now, the team has gone flat and has run out of ideas and Origi leading our line isn't the answer. His all round general play is average, and average teams like West Ham can cope with him.

I'd prefer to have Firmino in the false 9 role than Origi there, because Firmino has been ineffective, and was clearly very frustrated today. Nothing was working for him, and having the static, no anticipation of Origi ahead of him didn't leave him options. Instead, we relied more on the runs of Gini to help break through and the Dutchman did come close once or twice. But it wasn't enough, it wasn't sustained and the intensity has gone, and for now so has our groove. 

Ah come crawling out of your cave now we're not winning I  see.

Getting predictable now. Littleface means little brains, little loyalty and little support it seems

Out of friedeggs as well.

my thoughts.....massively stepped off at 1-0. players clearly thought (like i did) would go on to be a spanking once we scored.
Origi has 4 in 4 yet i dont think has played well in any of them! seems churlish to criticize , goals pay the rent and all that..... but dont think hes helping us atm so moving firmino out wide hes having no impact at all. looks totally anonymous without his mate coutinho..

Worryingly thought some players looked shattered in the last 20 or so....didnt even have a game in midweek!
nothing on the bench....

and that second goal....my word we concede some mental ones eh...

Last 4 games we seem to have hit a brick wall, and it's being compounded by very poor goal keeping.

Karius' confidence is clearly shot and he hasn't gotten over his goalkeeping debacle at the Vitality stadium last week. He's under the spotlight and clearly isn't coping. Any keeper worth their salt would have managed to have saved Payet's free-kick. His starting position on that FK was naive as much as it was amateurish.

And his indecision for their second goal made it easy for their striker. For his own sake (similar to De Gea in his first season), the lad needs taking out the team, his supposed confidence and cocky-ness is still in the changing room and I've seen enough now to say that he is going to be a liability for the foreseeable.

Whether he is or not, there is no alternative at this time. It's either him or Migs, and right now, one is just as error prone as the other. Klopp isn't going to drop him, so you just accept that or call for Klopp to go, and I can't see that happening.

I wouldn't blame him a lot for the free kick. Maybe he should have saved it, but Payet is an expert at those free kicks, and we should have been aware of not giving him the chance, a and we handed it to him cheaply. We had all week to prepare for it, and what did the squad do? Go to Barcelona to watch them tear a pub side to shreds.

The second goal is in part, down to him. Too static when the ball gets to the penalty area, and not a great attempt to save it either.

He looks frail and fragile in goal, but right now, there's no competition for his place, Klopp is not a fan of changing goalkeepers every week, and as he's his own man and German, he's even more reluctant to do so. Compare him to a proper goalkeeper for the opposition, who denied us the three points with a stunning save from a great Hendo effort. But if it goes in, we obviously would have a different outcome and a different discussion here.

I warned about this game last week, that we would find it difficult to break them down, and we struggled to create a genuine chance after the first goal. For whatever reason, we struggle against Bilic, it's now 7 games since we last beat him, and that was on peno gate night. It's also one win in 7 against West Ham, so today was never going to be a cricket score, and anyone who thought so after 4 minutes, must have forgotten about last week already. Needing to score at least 3 against Randolph was always going to be a tough ask, and so it proved to be.

This is the one weekend where it's great to be at home, as it means you're at home on the final day of the season. 8 home teams won their games this weekend, and there were no away wins. To take advantage of being at home on the final day though, this is the time of year when the hard work gets done. We've taken 5 points since the international break (initially blamed for the results) which is not enough, and there's no let up. We have 5 league games in the next 3 weeks, and we need at least 12 points from them before we go to the toilet. If we don't take them, we really will have to settle for the original target, which is a top 4 spot. So it's now or never for this group of players to deliver.

Karius maybe in his first season, but I'm in my 45th mate ( I started watching and supporting Liverpool when I was 5). You might be quite happy to wait a couple of seasons while we find out if Karius is upto it or not, but forgive me if I haven't got quite the same patience as you. I'd quite like to see us win the league again before I hang my boots up once and for all, and you don't do it with goalkeepers who can't save shots. Hopefully Karius discovers a way to do that before too much longer.

Fair enough. I was refering to the punch the ball comment. Well, Klopp knows the best, I'm pretty sure he'll make the change if neccessary.

Whether he is or not, there is no alternative at this time. It's either him or Migs, and right now, one is just as error prone as the other. Klopp isn't going to drop him, so you just accept that or call for Klopp to go, and I can't see that happening.

Disagree. The alternative can at least position himself and dive to save shots, probably one of Mig's only saving graces.

There is no certainty now that Mignolet will be as error prone as he was. I've often believed the scapegoating of him has been well over the top and that he isn't as bad as many have made him out to be. Sure he has his faults. However, the common consensus used to be, 'Mignolet needed more competition to keep him on his toes', and even though Karius hasn't really provided that competition (as he's looked so unconvincing himself), he has kept him out the team, under Klopp's command.

Mignolet should now be afforded the opportunity to pounce, now that it has been given to him by Karius - if Klopp allows so. Mignolet has pretty much always assumed #1 spot, he's never had to earn it really, and this maybe the catalyst for him to prove himself (like so many used to call for). I don't think Klopp will reinstate Migs (btw), and I think he'll stick with Karius, unfortunately.  However, just because I don't agree with Klopp for flogging a dead horse in Karius, it does not equate that I 'must call for him to go' - bit of a  silly comment that.

This side is quite a bit different now, it doesn't concede as many shots, and even fooled many on here into believing Karius was our saviour keeper from Migs the Merciless, even though Karius is still 'learning and developing' in his new GK role at LFC. Weird that, how a new 'developing' keeper can already be better than Mignolet, but anyway...

With at least one solid center-back in Matip ahead of him, and the way the team has changed there is no way of knowing how 'prone to error' Mignolet would be in this current team. With Matip in the team we can defend corners better and do many things better that release pressure off a GK. Mig's hasn't had this luxury. And it's patently clear he is a much better shot stopper and saver of 'pot shots' than Karius, who's confidence is clearly shot. Playing Lorius through this could be detrimental to him as well. He's clearly carried this over from the Bournemouth game and he has been busy spatting with the Chuckle brother on twatter about it. I'd pull him out the firing line to give himself the chance to take stock away from the limelight; and allow the concept of 'competition' to work for Mignolet in the meantime.

Gonna be positive and say we conceded 2 and Matip was still F***ing immaculate.

And free.

It is clear that we still lack quality in the team. Hendo should not be our DM, he is not a leader and should not be protecting our defense. We need a better GK, I hope Karius improves, otherwise we should look elsewhere.

We need another attacking midfielder to replace Mane,Firmino and Coutinho when needed. No one could bring a spark yesterday. 

We looked really flat yesterday. I expected us to fly out of the blocks and harass them, it didnt happen yet we managed to get the lead early. We should then have capitalised on the advantage and pressed on, but it just didnt happen.
Karius was at fault for both goals and there will be a big decision for JK to make regarding his position over the coming weeks.

Even so, we looked clueless in the second half when we had more than 30mins within which to get the win. I thought Mane, Matip and Milner were my standaout players, but very dissapointed in both Gini and Hendo. Especially Hendo as the captain, who still insisted on playing at such a slow tempo and constantly backwards when we needed a spark.

In January, i would seriously consider 2 more attacking wide players coz without the skill and guile of Coutinho, we will need pace out wide to create opportunities. Teams are consistently putting 9/10 players behind the ball to negate our threat and it is working coz we dont play at a higher tempo.

Will be very interesting to see the lineup for the next match...

It is clear that we still lack quality in the team. Hendo should not be our DM, he is not a leader and should not be protecting our defense. We need a better GK, I hope Karius improves, otherwise we should look elsewhere.

We need another attacking midfielder to replace Mane,Firmino and Coutinho when needed. No one could bring a spark yesterday. 

We concede a free kick and a ball that bypasses the DM and your first thought is Hendo is at fault.

Ladies and gentlemen we have been through this.

De Gea or Cortoius save yesterdays free kick and make a better effort at their second goal (he was far too passive for me) and maybe some of Bournemouth's goals as well.

That's the 6 point difference dealt with.

De Gea or Cortoius save yesterdays free kick and make a better effort at their second goal (he was far too passive for me) and maybe some of Bournemouth's goals as well.

That's the 6 point difference dealt with.

Yep.

And while some are trying to deflect by looking at our lack of attacking prowess up front, which itself has it's own injury concerns. You cannot expect to win 3, 4, 5-0 every week.

Don't forget, we were 1-0 up and threw away a lead that we must learn to defend properly, if you haven't got a keeper up to task you're going to concede very soft goals like we have done in the last 105 minutes.

Chelsea win at home 1-0. Don't see anyone moaning about the fact they couldn't score more, they took all the points and kept their opponents out at the other end.

Out of friedeggs as well.

You still sore because I didn't agree with you that Stevie should be brought back to lift the premier league? Stop being a sad old man, move on mate.

Back to the game...

I think yesterday highlighted the need for a proper DM in the same sort of mold as what Chelsea have in kante. For me Hendo would have to play alongside lallana where Wijnaldum is at the moment. Hendo is not a DM. The constant sideways and back passing of yesterday proves this. I just don't think he picks up the ball from deep and starts an attack well enough for us. Yes in a more attacking role but no for a DM for me.

Lack of Bench options really killed us yesterday, when Firmino is having one of those days ideally you want him hooked around the 60min mark.
Players dilly dallying over shooting a natural striker replacement would smack one or two of those first time hoping to catch the keeper off guard or maybe a deflection - unfortunately none of that was available.

Another thing that has become really stark over the last couple of games, probably just like the rest of the team but our full backs have been very poor and more so Milner as he has the quality, Clyne we know is not the best going forward.

I'm so disappointed with that match as I really expected after the team bonding in Barcelona plus the humiliation of losing to Bournemouth that they would have been supercharged for this match but alas no and that is a HUGE worry because it means that Klopp is losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped up.

No it absolutely does not

Talk about overreaction to a couple of poor results..

Third in the league, semi final of the league cup but two poor results, not even disastrous performances and with a already thin ish squad going through some injury issues and it's now Klopp is losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped?
Do me a favour for F**k sake

We had a fairly sh*te 15 minutes in the first half yesterday and we conceded twice, yes that is frustrating as F**k and we need to cut it out but we have no God given right to win every game, they came and sat with 9 behind the ball at all times, even when they were breaking it was with two, perhaps three at a push and when we did get it back and go forward they had 6 or 7 in a line across the box, we need to perhaps be more clinical, we need to cut out the bad 15 minutes but losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped

For the love of God...

Disagree. The alternative can at least position himself and dive to save shots, probably one of Mig's only saving graces.

There is no certainty now that Mignolet will be as error prone as he was. I've often believed the scapegoating of him has been well over the top and that he isn't as bad as many have made him out to be. Sure he has his faults. However, the common consensus used to be, 'Mignolet needed more competition to keep him on his toes', and even though Karius hasn't really provided that competition (as he's looked so unconvincing himself), he has kept him out the team, under Klopp's command.

Mignolet should now be afforded the opportunity to pounce, now that it has been given to him by Karius - if Klopp allows so. Mignolet has pretty much always assumed #1 spot, he's never had to earn it really, and this maybe the catalyst for him to prove himself (like so many used to call for). I don't think Klopp will reinstate Migs (btw), and I think he'll stick with Karius, unfortunately.  However, just because I don't agree with Klopp for flogging a dead horse in Karius, it does not equate that I 'must call for him to go' - bit of a  silly comment that.

No it isn't, because that's what it is going to take if you want Karius out. That and the rest of the season with a new man in charge.

We're quite tough on our keepers tbh. Grobbelaar was seen as a lunatic when he arrived, and he made his fair share of howlers initially, but he went on to win nigh on 20 major trophies here. James is still a laughing stock, as was Friedel, Westerveld and Dudek. More recently it was Bogdan and Jones. Today it's Migs and Karius turn, but the fact is you don't find Ray Clemences every day of the week, and there are times when you just have to accept the hand you're dealt and get on with it.

I don't think his confidence is shot, but he looks very nervous, and it's showing. It's not a new thing for a new signing to struggle initially to adapt to a new league, but unfortunately that is leading to mistakes which in turn is costing us points, which continues the circle.

Migs has made plenty of mistakes here, and conceded his fair share of the type of goals that Karius has the past two weeks. 12 months ago, his attempts to clear a corner at home to West Brom while we were leading were Sunday league standard, surprise surprise the ball ended up in the net, and as 12 months ago, it was up to Divock to go and rescue a point for us. Migs is certainly no better than Karius and is a busted flush, now relegated to cup keeper status. His attempt to save the Leeds shot in his last game was pathetic. Fortunately it didn't go in, so he will get to play at Southampton next month after all.

My main gripe with Klopp these days is his frequent lectures about how the fans should support the team in the stadium which is usually completely taboo, and would be for anyone else in charge, but somehow people make excuses for it. I'm not happy about it, but I'll brush off what he says about it while the team is performing.

On this issue, we called for him to get us a new keeper to replace Migs which he has done, and good bad or indifferent he has made his choice. We have no option as fans but to accept it, support him and hope he overcomes the nerves and the jitters over time, as Bruce did. That's the reality of the situation, because it is not going to change anytime in the foreseeable future.