Liverpool 2-2 West Ham United: In game and Post Match discussion

No it absolutely does not

Talk about overreaction to a couple of poor results..

Third in the league, semi final of the league cup but two poor results, not even disastrous performances and with a already thin ish squad going through some injury issues and it's now Klopp is losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped?
Do me a favour for f**k sake

We had a fairly sh*te 15 minutes in the first half yesterday and we conceded twice, yes that is frustrating as f**k and we need to cut it out but we have no God given right to win every game, they came and sat with 9 behind the ball at all times, even when they were breaking it was with two, perhaps three at a push and when we did get it back and go forward they had 6 or 7 in a line across the box, we need to perhaps be more clinical, we need to cut out the bad 15 minutes but losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped

For the love of God...

Absolutely. I don't get people having a go at our attacking play. We were all over West ham for most of the match. We scored 2 goals, should have had a penalty and only a world class stop kept out that Hendo effort. Plus Wijnaldum had 3 ( I think) chances that just squeaked wide.

We have been scoring goals for fun all season. We scored 2 more yesterday and that should have, and would have, been enough but for a couple of defensive howlers ( again). There is F**k all wrong with the attacking side of our game. Proper defending, and goalkeeping in particular, and we'd have had a comfortable 6 points out of those last 2 games, and we'd all be praising the team to the skies - how well were coping without Coutinho etc.

Whilst the attack isn't quite clicking at the moment (I mean how F***ing unlucky do we have to be to have Sturridge fit when he wasn't getting in the team but injured the moment Coutinho's on the sidelines as well) we've still managed 5 in the last 2 which is far from terrible. I'm a bit worried about when Mane goes away but I'm we can get at least of one of Coutinho/Sturridge back by then.

Conceding 6 in those two games is just awful though. Don't think we were torn apart for any one of those goals (West Ham's second was a freak goal though to be fair), they all came from simple mistakes that we've been making for years now.

If we want to win the title we need to go out there and sign a keeper and a centre half as soon as the January window opens. You don't win the league defending like we do, it's as simple as that.

I am trying not to over react, but its clear we have gone off the boil are in a sticky period. I think injuries to Lallana and Couts have cost us big time, and of course when you need Sturridge, he pulls a something.

We need to get 4 points from the next 2 and I think we will be back on track. I am not going to mention the keeper anymore as if Jürgen doesn't see this then whats the point, he may be good in 5 years I hear?

You still sore because I didn't agree with you that Stevie should be brought back to lift the premier league? Stop being a sad old man, move on mate.

Back to the game...

What are you  on ?   

Discussing breakfast    ..........  mate .   

Still say we'll win it by March

Still say we'll win it by March

You'd get some odds on that mate!

 

I am trying not to over react.........I am not going to mention the keeper anymore as if Jürgen doesn't see this then whats the point, he may be good in 5 years I hear?

You're overreacting.

What the f**k is Jürgen meant to do? Drop Karius, oh yes, because we all f**king rate Mignolet don't we? Jesus H Christ, the shortsightenedness from folk on here is staggering.

He made one small error yesterday with a ball that was swerving from the best free kick taker in the league. The way people are talking it's as if he dropped an absolute clanger.

The hysteria over this is absolutely pathetic. The likes of the Neville brothers need to keep their mouths shut to stop them from dribbling, and it seems many of our so called 'supporters' need to do the same and stop copying those rat faced Manc wankers.

No it absolutely does not

Talk about overreaction to a couple of poor results..

Third in the league, semi final of the league cup but two poor results, not even disastrous performances and with a already thin ish squad going through some injury issues and it's now Klopp is losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped?
Do me a favour for f**k sake

We had a fairly sh*te 15 minutes in the first half yesterday and we conceded twice, yes that is frustrating as f**k and we need to cut it out but we have no God given right to win every game, they came and sat with 9 behind the ball at all times, even when they were breaking it was with two, perhaps three at a push and when we did get it back and go forward they had 6 or 7 in a line across the box, we need to perhaps be more clinical, we need to cut out the bad 15 minutes but losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped

For the love of God...

Can you explain then why we were bossed about in the second half against Bournemouth which in my opinion was a disastrous result?
Also after the first 5-10 minutes of each half against West Ham where was the intensity? And don't give me that crap about West Ham defendingsuperbly, it didn't seem to hinder Arsenal much did it? West Ham are F***ing awful and its embarrassing to not smash them on home ground.

Against West Ham we had the same shots on target as them, 3!!.  that is all that counts if you want to try and win. Oh and having a goalkeeper capable of actually saving a F***ing shot would help as well.

You may not consider 1 point from Bournemouth and West Ham a disaster but I do, especially combined with a relatively lethargic attitude from the players, compared to earlier in the season and low number of shots on target.

Can you explain then why we were bossed about in the second half against Bournemouth which in my opinion was a disastrous result?
Also after the first 5-10 minutes of each half against West Ham where was the intensity? And don't give me that crap about West Ham defendingsuperbly, it didn't seem to hinder Arsenal much did it? West Ham are f**king awful and its embarrassing to not smash them on home ground.

Against West Ham we had the same shots on target as them, 3!!.  that is all that counts if you want to try and win. Oh and having a goalkeeper capable of actually saving a f**king shot would help as well.

You may not consider 1 point from Bournemouth and West Ham a disaster but I do, especially combined with a relatively lethargic attitude from the players, compared to earlier in the season and low number of shots on target.

I love posts like these

You know ones that try to move the goalposts or slightly alter the context of their original point

You said

Klopp is losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped

That's what I called bollocks

Now you're saying I don't care that we only took a point from the last two games

Ffs 😐

The two are not linked

As for West Ham losing to Arsenal the week before, so their manager can't get a response from his players? Having slagged them off in the press about their attitude.. And because he evoked a response that was ultimately a defensive approach and we couldn't break that down then Klopp's losing his ability? That if one manager gets more of the result he wanted the other is a failure?
We had 58 touches in their box yesterday, our most of the season, they had 3, their lowest but that's Klopp's fault that they were so tightly packed that it was frustrating to get clean shots away?

Football isn't linear, it's a complicated event where 22 players can alter what happens,  because A happens one week doesn't mean it will the next week.

Know what we got the reputation (fans) that we were knowledgeable because of our ability to read games and situations, because we understand that there is another team involved and they can sometimes win or frustrate you but we often showed our appreciation of that.. Like when we stayed around and clapped AC Milan after the 2007 Champions League final to the extent where Ancelotti brought his players over to applaud us back and mentioned it after..

It's a shame that's eroding in the modern fan

Who are you gonna trust?

Jürgen or these two clowns?

I love posts like these

You know ones that try to move the goalposts or slightly alter the context of their original point

You said

Klopp is losing his ability to keep them focused and pumped

That's what I called bollocks

Now you're saying I don't care that we only took a point from the last two games

Ffs 😐

The two are not linked

As for West Ham losing to Arsenal the week before, so their manager can't get a response from his players? Having slagged them off in the press about their attitude.. And because he evoked a response that was ultimately a defensive approach and we couldn't break that down then Klopp's losing his ability? That if one manager gets more of the result he wanted the other is a failure?
We had 58 touches in their box yesterday, our most of the season, they had 3, their lowest but that's Klopp's fault that they were so tightly packed that it was frustrating to get clean shots away?

Football isn't linear, it's a complicated event where 22 players can alter what happens,  because A happens one week doesn't mean it will the next week.

Know what we got the reputation (fans) that we were knowledgeable because of our ability to read games and situations, because we understand that there is another team involved and they can sometimes win or frustrate you but we often showed our appreciation of that.. Like when we stayed around and clapped AC Milan after the 2007 Champions League final to the extent where Ancelotti brought his players over to applaud us back and mentioned it after..

It's a shame that's eroding in the modern fan

Hang on a second, I think my original point may be being blown slightly out of proportion here. I'm not suggesting that Klopp is losing the players confidence just that the drive and intensity from early season has been missing the last few games ie I'm merely saying that something is not quite right and was suggesting one possible reason. For the record I think Klopp is a brilliant manager but I am dissapointed that the players were not 100% up for the match in terms of pressing etc, especially after the painful result against Bournemouth which you described as not being a disaster, despite us conceding 3 goals in 15 minutes to a team not known for its prolific goal scoring abilities.

Think Matip has been boss so far but I have more issue with him than Karius regarding the 2nd goal. He's not ready at all for it and had he gotten his feet sorted out and made up his mind how he was going to deal with the situation, Antonio would never have gotten through in the first place.

First goal I would expect Karius to do better but the slating he has gotten from people and this witch hunt the likes of Neville seem to have about him is over the top and like I say, their 2nd goal I hold Matip responsible.

We concede a free kick and a ball that bypasses the DM and your first thought is Hendo is at fault.

Ladies and gentlemen we have been through this.

Did I write that Hendo was the cause of the goals? IMO Hendo should not be playing at DM because he is not a real leader and does not have the skills and character to play there. I think that we play better when Lucas plays there but Lucas does not bring enough forward.

Had we had another DM, a real leader in midfield, we should have won this game. Who leads this team? Not Hendo.

Isn't it funny that quite a few fans don't think he's a leader but the players who he plays with do, even our ex skipper Is vocal on how good a leader he is
Klopp, Rodgers and his national managers do.. His international teammates do

Liverpool and England skipper yet some of our fans know better

Everyone in the game must be wrong

Go figure

he is not a real leader and does not have the skills and character to play there. I think that we play better when Lucas plays there but Lucas does not bring enough forward.

Brendan? Is that you?!

Calling for Lucas to play ahead of Henderson, jesus christ.

I hope we don't lose this weekend or people will be calling for Klopps head and the return of Ryan Babel and Aquilani.

Did I write that Hendo was the cause of the goals? IMO Hendo should not be playing at DM because he is not a real leader and does not have the skills and character to play there. I think that we play better when Lucas plays there but Lucas does not bring enough forward.

Had we had another DM, a real leader in midfield, we should have won this game. Who leads this team? Not Hendo.

So if I understand this right - that Hendo should not be DM because he's not a leader - then by definition a DM should always be a leader? What is this theory based on? Are you even serious? Those are honest questions I'm asking by the way.

Last time I checked, Hendo was doing well enough in defense. And he actually got closer to score us the winning goal than our attacking players. But whatever suits your made up theories best, I guess.

Did I write that Hendo was the cause of the goals? IMO Hendo should not be playing at DM because he is not a real leader and does not have the skills and character to play there. I think that we play better when Lucas plays there but Lucas does not bring enough forward.

Had we had another DM, a real leader in midfield, we should have won this game. Who leads this team? Not Hendo.

So all DMs are leaders? Name one player we have who's more vocal on the pitch. Name one player who covers more ground and sets hard work as an example as much as Jordan. Name the 'leader' in the team and tell me how he is.

Also you clearly were trying to say it was his fault as you complained and only sited Hendo as an issue.

You know nothing.

So all DMs are leaders? Name one player we have who's more vocal on the pitch. Name one player who covers more ground and sets hard work as an example as much as Jordan. Name the 'leader' in the team and tell me how he is.

Also you clearly were trying to say it was his fault as you complained and only sited Hendo as an issue.

You know nothing.

Nowhere did I write "a DM should be a leader", right? So please, don't say I wrote things I didn't.
He should ot be a DM because :
1. It's not what he does best
2. It's important to have a leader in midfield, even more important now as DM given that Wijnaldum and Lallana are not leading the team while playing in midfield and that we're very bad at defending.
3. Hendo  is a good player, no doubt about that but he should not do something in which he is average. Gerrard was an average DM too, even though he was one of the best players we had.

In our current situation, where we cannot defend against West Ham, Bournemouth or any other team, we need a proper DM and a good leader in midfield: these are things which we lack in Hendo. I won't expect Wijnaldum or Lallana to play that role.

For f sake, I'm surprised to see how mature adults cannot dissociate simple arguments.
Saying that Hendo should not play at DM and that he is not a leader means that all DM should be leaders and that Hendo is a bad player!? Really?

I simply think that a good DM in the team or having a leader in the team who could have ensured that we remained calm would have helped. Hendo did nothing that his position as Captain or DM asked, simple...

Nowhere did I write "a DM should be a leader", right? So please, don't say I wrote things I didn't.
He should ot be a DM because :
1. It's not what he does best
2. It's important to have a leader in midfield, even more important now as DM given that Wijnaldum and Lallana are not leading the team while playing in midfield and that we're very bad at defending.
3. Hendo  is a good player, no doubt about that but he should not do something in which he is average. Gerrard was an average DM too, even though he was one of the best players we had.

In our current situation, where we cannot defend against West Ham, Bournemouth or any other team, we need a proper DM and a good leader in midfield: these are things which we lack in Hendo. I won't expect Wijnaldum or Lallana to play that role.

For f sake, I'm surprised to see how mature adults cannot dissociate simple arguments.
Saying that Hendo should not play at DM and that he is not a leader means that all DM should be leaders and that Hendo is a bad player!? Really?

I simply think that a good DM in the team or having a leader in the team who could have ensured that we remained calm would have helped. Hendo did nothing that his position as Captain or DM asked, simple...

It's basic logic, really. If you say he can't play DM because he's not a leader, one is certain to infer that you believe that, in order to play at DM, you need to be a leader.

Leaving all that aside, however, I find it interesting how more than once you point out to weaknesses in Lallana or Gini, but apparently only points the finger at Henderson. What if Hendo had better players alongside him in midfield? What if, instead of playing with an attacking midfielder, a converted winger and three strikers ahead of him, we had a bit more balance? What if other players could share the responsibility of being leaders? Good teams never rely solely on their captains.

Even Klopp has already pointed out that we're playing too risky football at this point. He actually used those words: too risky. Henderson is not the one to blame for this, and has generally done a very good job.

It's basic logic, really. If you say he can't play DM because he's not a leader, one is certain to infer that you believe that, in order to play at DM, you need to be a leader.

Leaving all that aside, however, I find it interesting how more than once you point out to weaknesses in Lallana or Gini, but apparently only points the finger at Henderson. What if Hendo had better players alongside him in midfield? What if, instead of playing with an attacking midfielder, a converted winger and three strikers ahead of him, we had a bit more balance? What if other players could share the responsibility of being leaders? Good teams never rely solely on their captains.

Even Klopp has already pointed out that we're playing too risky football at this point. He actually used those words: too risky. Henderson is not the one to blame for this, and has generally done a very good job.

Again, you mix everything. Did I point weaknesses in Lallana and Wijnaldum?
Lallana is doing an extraordinary job, goals, assists and he tracks back. As for Wijnaldum, he is new to the team and if I'm not wrong he was not a CM initially. He is doing a very decent job. I don't expect any one of them to lead there because what's not should be expected from them.

Add a good DM in this team and you have balance. Or simply, replace Wijnaldum by Hendo, keep Lallana and add a DM and we have a balanced midfield. Yes, I think that part of the issue is balance but the real issue for now is the lack of leadership in midfield and the absence of a good DM.

There is not one single cause, there are several causes to our issues. Stop mixing everything. Don't try to read my mind, lad. Stick to what I write.

Again, you mix everything. Did I point weaknesses in Lallana and Wijnaldum?
Lallana is doing an extraordinary job, goals, assists and he tracks back. As for Wijnaldum, he is new to the team and if I'm not wrong he was not a CM initially. He is doing a very decent job. I don't expect any one of them to lead there because what's not should be expected from them.

Add a good DM in this team and you have balance. Or simply, replace Wijnaldum by Hendo, keep Lallana and add a DM and we have a balanced midfield. Yes, I think that part of the issue is balance but the real issue for now is the lack of leadership in midfield and the absence of a good DM.

There is not one single cause, there are several causes to our issues. Stop mixing everything. Don't try to read my mind, lad. Stick to what I write.

You said we need a leader in midfielder because Lallana and Gini are not leading while playing in midfield. Why does that mean the fault is exclusively Hendo's, then, is beyond me. I'm not trying to read your mind, I'm trying to make sense of your arguments, which are confusing to say the least.

You think we need a leader in midfield, but you're OK with 2/3 of the midfield having no leadership at all, because that's "not what should be expected from them". So forgive me for reading this as if you're just trying to find an excuse for blaming Henderson.

You said we need a leader in midfielder because Lallana and Gini are not leading while playing in midfield. Why does that mean the fault is exclusively Hendo's, then, is beyond me. I'm not trying to read your mind, I'm trying to make sense of your arguments, which are confusing to say the least.

You think we need a leader in midfield, but you're OK with 2/3 of the midfield having no leadership at all, because that's "not what should be expected from them". So forgive me for reading this as if you're just trying to find an excuse for blaming Henderson.

Well Hendo is the captain isn't he, so wouldn't you kind of expect him to be the leader? I know people are desperate to defend Hendo at any cost but come on now please!!

Well Hendo is the captain isn't he, so wouldn't you kind of expect him to be the leader? I know people are desperate to defend Hendo at any cost but come on now please!!

And you don't think he's a leader in this team? I personally think he is, but also think to expect only one player to carry all that responsibility is ridiculous.

In fact, the whole emphasis on the captain role in England is way over the top, a massive exaggeration typical to Britain. In Brazil, in South America in general, or even in Spain for example, you don't see that sort of emphasis on captains.

Off the field, captains represent their players inside the club and lead by example, and for that I think Hendo is more than good enough. On the field, the fact is that good teams never rely on one single great leader, they have many in their lineups. And right now, one could say we don't have enough, especially with Coutinho out of the team. I'm not pessimistic about this team, however, and think other players will grow as the season and years progresses - I have faith in people like Matip and Wijnaldum, for example.