Manchester United 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

You'll being telling me next that we played our two biggest derbies away and a top four team at home amongst that.

2.33 points per game.  Serious slump in form that.

Why can't it be more like last season and 1.58 points per game.

What are you going on about and waffling on about points for?

We're not talking about the previous 7 league games when we had a fit squad and Mane in the team.

Referring to our current slump then we're talking about the last 3 or 4 games, two of which were cup games. One against a league two side at home for fucks sake and one a semi final where we barely tested their goalkeeper. Sunderland we looked knackered and on Sunday we still looked a little toothless going forward.

Sunday was an improvement in many ways but we still lacked our usual killer instinct going forward. Mane is a huge miss for us and it's a worry.

What are you going on about and waffling on about points for?

We're not talking about the previous 7 league games when we had a fit squad and Mane in the team.

Referring to our current slump then we're talking about the last 3 or 4 games, two of which were cup games. One against a league two side at home for fucks sake and one a semi final where we barely tested their goalkeeper. Sunderland we looked knackered and on Sunday we still looked a little toothless going forward.

Sunday was an improvement in many ways but we still lacked our usual killer instinct going forward. Mane is a huge miss for us and it's a worry.

Worry? You just gave an awnser to your own question,. As you say we had a fit squad before Sunderland, but after Sunderland ,the starters that were injured included Coutinho, Henderson, Milner, Clyne, for different matches. You take any of the main "performing" starters out of any team, anyone would struggle. So our slump came in with our key players getting injured, most of whom are returning, which also co-incides with our performance improving. If we play badly against Swansea, then you have all the reason to worry.

John Aldridge has criticised the mancs playing style on Sunday saying it showed ''a lack of class''.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/john-aldridge-liverpool-would-comfortably-12464158

What are you going on about and waffling on about points for?

We're not talking about the previous 7 league games when we had a fit squad and Mane in the team.

Referring to our current slump then we're talking about the last 3 or 4 games, two of which were cup games. One against a league two side at home for fucks sake and one a semi final where we barely tested their goalkeeper. Sunderland we looked knackered and on Sunday we still looked a little toothless going forward.

Sunday was an improvement in many ways but we still lacked our usual killer instinct going forward. Mane is a huge miss for us and it's a worry.

Since the turn of the year our ppg average has been 1.00, lower than the lofty heights of 1.58. 

Worry? You just gave an awnser to your own question,. As you say we had a fit squad before Sunderland, but after Sunderland ,the starters that were injured included Coutinho, Henderson, Milner, Clyne, for different matches. You take any of the main "performing" starters out of any team, anyone would struggle. So our slump came in with our key players getting injured, most of whom are returning, which also co-incides with our performance improving. If we play badly against Swansea, then you have all the reason to worry.

Yeah I know? That's exactly what I'm saying.

Whenever we have had a fit squad to choose from this season then we have usually won - and won in style too. But we haven't had a full squad to choose from for the past 3 or 4 games or so and that's where our slump has occurred. 

JD and Kopite are referring to matches that we played several weeks ago where we did have a full squad to choose from. They are also referring to league games only but more recently we have played two cup games of course - so their posts are irrelevant.

Since Mane has left for the AFCON we have played three and scored one goal which was a penalty. We haven't won in our last four games which is not like us. So of course it is a worry. The posts referring to games that happened 7 or 8 weeks ago to justify our recent slump as I said, are irrelevant. We're not talking about what happened in the league back in mid December, we're talking about what's happening right now and the form we're in currently.

Anyway, the next four games for us are massive. Plymouth, Swansea, Southampton, Chelsea. All of them are must win. So we need to find our shooting boots soon and get back to winning ways.

It's a curious phenomenon on this forum, people agree with you but still attack you for making the point. A blind man can see we are struggling a bit recently, each and everyone of us agrees we aren't playing as well as we were 5 or 6 weeks ago, but say so and you come under fire. Equally, nobody who is sane and compus mentis would deny our squad is creaking, but say so and you're "losing the plot" and over reacting.

Had we had our time again I think it's fairly clear we should have stock piled a couple of players in the Summer (some of us even "said all along") but that's gone now. Saying we are looking stretched or a bit out of form tho is stating the glaringly obvious, I can't understand why it bothers people so.

It's a curious phenomenon on this forum, people agree with you but still attack you for making the point. A blind man can see we are struggling a bit recently, each and everyone of us agrees we aren't playing as well as we were 5 or 6 weeks ago, but say so and you come under fire. Equally, nobody who is sane and compus mentis would deny our squad is creaking, but say so and you're "losing the plot" and over reacting.

Had we had our time again I think it's fairly clear we should have stock piled a couple of players in the Summer (some of us even "said all along") but that's gone now. Saying we are looking stretched or a bit out of form tho is stating the glaringly obvious, I can't understand why it bothers people so.

Why does it boher people that the Boss never strengthened as much as some would have liked in the summer or this transfer window?, this is at Klopp's feet, we just have to learn that Klopp won't spend for the sake of spending & will give our promising youngsters the chance to shine...

With all the lack of signings that some are crying out for we are still in all 3 competitions...

Top 4 & a domestic cup was the target for Klopp this season for me, it's close to happening if not exceeding that target...

Why does it boher people that the Boss never strengthened as much as some would have liked in the summer or this transfer window?, this is at Klopp's feet, we just have to learn that Klopp won't spend for the sake of spending & will give our promising youngsters the chance to shine...

With all the lack of signings that some are crying out for we are still in all 3 competitions...

Top 4 & a domestic cup was the target for Klopp this season for me, it's close to happening if not exceeding that target...

Spend "for the sake of spending", how many times will that get trotted out? I'm all for not spending for the sake of it, but if it's spending for the sake of improving our chances of winning trophies, then IMHO it's a good idea. Had we have gotten ourselves a couple of credible first team players in the Summer, we would now have a bigger chance of winning the league, surely nobody would dispute that would they?

Like I say it's gone now so you could argue there's no point going on about it (and I dont) but it's not surprising that some do is it?

Worry? You just gave an awnser to your own question,. As you say we had a fit squad before Sunderland, but after Sunderland ,the starters that were injured included Coutinho, Henderson, Milner, Clyne, for different matches. You take any of the main "performing" starters out of any team, anyone would struggle. So our slump came in with our key players getting injured, most of whom are returning, which also co-incides with our performance improving. If we play badly against Swansea, then you have all the reason to worry.

That only really applies to the forwards and mid fielders(Lallana), we can get away with it in the defensive line to a extent, because of the goal threat we carry with the attack/midfield, but lose one from that attack/midfield a that goal threat drops off quite rapidly

Why does it boher people that the Boss never strengthened as much as some would have liked in the summer or this transfer window?, this is at Klopp's feet, we just have to learn that Klopp won't spend for the sake of spending & will give our promising youngsters the chance to shine...

With all the lack of signings that some are crying out for we are still in all 3 competitions...

Top 4 & a domestic cup was the target for Klopp this season for me, it's close to happening if not exceeding that target...

But do you not find it frustrating knowing that once we have gotten ourselves into such a strong position like this, then a signing or two might give us that final push to get over the line?  We might miss out on the title, or even the top four for that matter, all because our squad is too thin.

Take Sundays game for example. We take Coutinho and Mane out of our XI and who are we left with? It means Lallana is playing further forward which is not ideal, we have to take him out of the deeper position where he has played for us all season and has really excelled there too. He has been the midfielder who has been arriving late into the box so they say and making all of those crucial forward runs. We have missed that recently.  He also lacks the pace required to play as part of the front three too in my opinion.

We have to play Origi. Now I like Origi, but playing him means we have to move Firmino. Similar to Lallana, Firmino has really excelled leading the line for us this season and his best performances have come from that position. Its not ideal is it? Our attacking play has suffered because of it.  I know all teams have injuries and that if you take any two key attacking players out from our rivals team then they would also struggle too....the difference is though, I think they can cope better. They have more options than what we do.

Also, Trent was completely out of his depth on Sunday if we're being brutally honest with ourselves so if he is our back up to Clyne then again, its a worry. 

We need more bodies and it would be nice if FSG said we have a real shot of the title here, lets bring one or two players in now and really go for it.

JD and Kopite are referring to matches that we played several weeks ago where we did have a full squad to choose from. They are also referring to league games only but more recently we have played two cup games of course - so their posts are irrelevant.

Since Mane has left for the AFCON we have played three and scored one goal which was a penalty. We haven't won in our last four games which is not like us. So of course it is a worry. The posts referring to games that happened 7 or 8 weeks ago to justify our recent slump as I said, are irrelevant. We're not talking about what happened in the league back in mid December, we're talking about what's happening right now and the form we're in currently.

Anyway, the next four games for us are massive. Plymouth, Swansea, Southampton, Chelsea. All of them are must win. So we need to find our shooting boots soon and get back to winning ways.

It's not irrelevant at all mate, if we are talking recent form then how can the last 6 league games be classed as irrelevant?

I'm not saying at all we are playing the free flowing football from earlier in the season but a fair chunk of my the reasoning for that is how teams are setting up against us as well as injuries, I don't think we have really been at full strength since Watford at home? But the way we have beaten Everton, City and scrapped a point at Utd is just as valid and shows a different type of form than just wiping teams away.
The quality of the opposition,  how they approach it, the magnitude and passion of the games all dictate that.

I agree we haven't been free flowing, Sunderland was a disappointing result,  Southampton we were poor yes.. but the Plymouth result is less relevant in my opinion due to who we sent out (not saying we shouldn't still expect to win) than the results in the league prior to Christmas

Currently we have had a couple of poor results,  one stinking performance but all teams have those. 

Completely agree that the next four are key, 100%.. Hopefully we get through those and then we can be somewhere near fill strength again

It's a curious phenomenon on this forum, people agree with you but still attack you for making the point. A blind man can see we are struggling a bit recently, each and everyone of us agrees we aren't playing as well as we were 5 or 6 weeks ago, but say so and you come under fire. Equally, nobody who is sane and compus mentis would deny our squad is creaking, but say so and you're "losing the plot" and over reacting.

Had we had our time again I think it's fairly clear we should have stock piled a couple of players in the Summer (some of us even "said all along") but that's gone now. Saying we are looking stretched or a bit out of form tho is stating the glaringly obvious, I can't understand why it bothers people so.

There's a fine line again imo with struggling a bit and having to dig in because teams make it difficult for you. . We aren't playing as well as 5-6 weeks ago no but that's because teams aren't allowing us to play that way, they camp in to negate the press as much and also don't allow us to spring on them on the counter. . That's clear, so games have become less free flowing than they were

It will help us grow as a team working it out

Our squad is creaking, (not sure if it was aimed at me Mick that but yor the record) what I said yesterday was that we have had a lot of key injuries but going into the season we had a decent squad cover for a squad with no European football. As it's turned out that once we have 4-5 key injuries the back up looks less convincing,  but I'm not sure (especially with no European football) you can cover for 4-5 key injuries.
What's exasperated the situation is that those 4-5 key injuries 2-3 of them are in the same area of the pitch and then we look vulnerable

Without European footy can we really have a squad of 22 top top class internationals?  Where do they get their games?  I think we built a squad this season for a domestic campaign with the idea of adding more quality next summer once we have European footy again.. we are creaking now but you can't cover for worse case scenarios all the time. Not when you are run like a business like we are

The bench has looked weal recently and I'm sure that's something that will be looked at in the summer

Doesn't bother me at all saying we are stretched or a bit out of form, but on the flip side you need context which is all I tried to give

Apologies to you and any others if you mean it's me who over reacts and calls people names.  I didn't think I did

Spend "for the sake of spending", how many times will that get trotted out? I'm all for not spending for the sake of it, but if it's spending for the sake of improving our chances of winning trophies, then IMHO it's a good idea. Had we have gotten ourselves a couple of credible first team players in the Summer, we would now have a bigger chance of winning the league, surely nobody would dispute that would they?

Like I say it's gone now so you could argue there's no point going on about it (and I dont) but it's not surprising that some do is it?

We still have a good chance of winning a trophy this season mate, granted I would have loved a couple of signings this window but it's hard to get your targets if the clubs you want to buy from don't want to let go this half of the season...

I understand the frustration as we all want to win the league as the Boss has given us that hope, plenty of twist yet in the campaign...City were flying in the fist few games look at them now, free fall, Chelsea we stuttering but now perched on top, swings in roundabouts and I still believe we are in with a very string shout for the title..

Things can change so quickly we beat Chelsea and say they all only manage a draw at OT.

That's a 2 pt difference and they still have to play Spurs, City, Arse.

All to play for we just need to make sure we put the cannon fodder away, although Klopp has made huge strides it still suggests a mentality issue.

It's a curious phenomenon on this forum, people agree with you but still attack you for making the point. A blind man can see we are struggling a bit recently, each and everyone of us agrees we aren't playing as well as we were 5 or 6 weeks ago, but say so and you come under fire. Equally, nobody who is sane and compus mentis would deny our squad is creaking, but say so and you're "losing the plot" and over reacting.

Had we had our time again I think it's fairly clear we should have stock piled a couple of players in the Summer (some of us even "said all along") but that's gone now. Saying we are looking stretched or a bit out of form tho is stating the glaringly obvious, I can't understand why it bothers people so.

Retrospect is a wonderful thing Mick but wouldn't you think with the collective skills available and in place to make this club/company successful, the reasons for our successive failings would have been identified and eradicated?

Could there be an underlying obstacle to the solution of the chink in our armour? 

We have at last a man at the helm quite possibly in the mould of some of the greatest managers this club has known, retrospect is not a part of his itinerary.
Stretching an overstretched squad will not allow Jürgen to achieve the glory of his legendary predecessors.

For the good of the club, along with the likes of Dalglish and Benitez, Klopp is willing to put his head on the block and attempt to achieve the impossible while confronting the seemingly impassable.

How long before he gets pissed off with brick walls and the German national team poach him?
 

Spend "for the sake of spending", how many times will that get trotted out? I'm all for not spending for the sake of it, but if it's spending for the sake of improving our chances of winning trophies, then IMHO it's a good idea. Had we have gotten ourselves a couple of credible first team players in the Summer, we would now have a bigger chance of winning the league, surely nobody would dispute that would they?

Like I say it's gone now so you could argue there's no point going on about it (and I dont) but it's not surprising that some do is it?

''Spend for the sake of spending'' is a ludicrous trot out when the long ball game robbed us of victory at OT.
Spending to prevent us being robbed of points by a side that was devoid of answers is a lot more fitting.

Spending on a recognised striker and spending to shore up a shaky defence does sound like a reasonable long term proposition instead of the Scrooge anthem of keeping the purse strings tight at all costs, ignoring the repercussions. 

Things can change so quickly we beat Chelsea and say they all only manage a draw at OT.

That's a 2 pt difference and they still have to play Spurs, City, Arse.

All to play for we just need to make sure we put the cannon fodder away, although Klopp has made huge strides it still suggests a mentality issue.

That's assuming we beat them firstly then assuming we beat Arsenal and Spurs at home and go to City and win. Wouldn't see all that happening at present. Oh not mentioning the games we like to mess up in against say West Brom or west ham.

Yes all to play for but every likelihood well drop as many points as Chelsea the way were playing at the minute

It's not irrelevant at all mate, if we are talking recent form then how can the last 6 league games be classed as irrelevant?

I think it was, because when we are referring to our current slump, I presume we are discussing the last four games in which we haven't won a match. You have gone as far back as the 14th December though. That is over a month ago and a lot of things have happened since then such as injuries, Mane going the AFCON, not playing Matip etc.

I'm not saying at all we are playing the free flowing football from earlier in the season but a fair chunk of my the reasoning for that is how teams are setting up against us as well as injuries, I don't think we have really been at full strength since Watford at home? But the way we have beaten Everton, City and scrapped a point at Utd is just as valid and shows a different type of form than just wiping teams away.
The quality of the opposition,  how they approach it, the magnitude and passion of the games all dictate that.

Well that's not exactly true is it? We were at full strength against both Southampton and Sunderland who we played after Watford. Coutinho got injured and we were without him for a few games but Henderson and Mane for example played in the games against Boro, Everton, City and Stoke.   Its only since Mane & Henderson have been missing where we have looked a bit crap to be honest. Its not surprising that we played much better on Sunday once Hendo returned to the team.

I agree we haven't been free flowing, Sunderland was a disappointing result,  Southampton we were poor yes.. but the Plymouth result is less relevant in my opinion due to who we sent out (not saying we shouldn't still expect to win) than the results in the league prior to Christmas

Currently we have had a couple of poor results,  one stinking performance but all teams have those. 

Its the lack of goals that worries me and again I refer to Mane. We've been without him for three games and we haven't scored in open play during that time. 

The Plymouth game is relevant because the players who featured in that game are our back up/reserve players.  Without Mane who did we play? Ojo? Woodburn? Im sorry, but they couldn't break down Plymouth, so how are they gonna break down a side like West Brom?

The Southampton cup game was probably our worst of the season and we weren't much better at Sunderland either.  Sunday was better, but we were still missing that firepower.

Lets hope we get back to winning ways sharpish because the next four games will define our season.

Retrospect is a wonderful thing Mick but wouldn't you think with the collective skills available and in place to make this club/company successful, the reasons for our successive failings would have been identified and eradicated?

Could there be an underlying obstacle to the solution of the chink in our armour? 

We have at last a man at the helm quite possibly in the mould of some of the greatest managers this club has known, retrospect is not a part of his itinerary.
Stretching an overstretched squad will not allow Jürgen to achieve the glory of his legendary predecessors.

For the good of the club, along with the likes of Dalglish and Benitez, Klopp is willing to put his head on the block and attempt to achieve the impossible while confronting the seemingly impassable.

How long before he gets pissed off with brick walls and the German national team poach him?
 

What on earth are you going on about here?

Even when Klopp has acknowledged that he will only sign players if he wants to it becomes FSG's fault (I assume that's what's being implied here).

He's just signed a 6 year contract and has given absolutely no indication that he's unhappy.

Hyperbole at its best.

What on earth are you going on about here?

Even when Klopp has acknowledged that he will only sign players if he wants to it becomes FSG's fault (I assume that's what's being implied here).

He's just signed a 6 year contract and has given absolutely no indication that he's unhappy.

Hyperbole at its best.

We live in an age of Post-truth. What else would you expect?

What on earth are you going on about here?

Even when Klopp has acknowledged that he will only sign players if he wants to it becomes FSG's fault (I assume that's what's being implied here).

He's just signed a 6 year contract and has given absolutely no indication that he's unhappy.

Hyperbole at its best.

I did not mention the owners in that post. The suggestion as to the cause of any failings does however point in their direction.

Did you not see the manc game?

The failings over 90 minutes were as plain as the nose holding the rose tinted glasses on your face.
I did see the full 90 minutes and you can attempt to tell me all is well and the manager has unrestrained access to the transfer markets which will prompt the response 'you are talking out of your arse'.

Jürgen might indicate he is not restricted in that sense and at this time use his unbelievable perception and repartee with the players to coax out skills nobody else can see; he knows what the club has achieved in previous years and will be well aware of expectation levels.
FSG have done their best to smother expectation levels with talk of ''success in the long term'' in spite of there being absolutely no sign of the buds of success sprouting now or anytime soon with the apparent forced acquisition of squad players and journeymen.

The truth is our business orientated owners have no loyalty, interest or will to champion LFC.
A sound commercial model that is self-sustaining and requires minimal or no financial input is NESV's perfect acquisition.

I did not mention the owners in that post. The suggestion as to the cause of any failings does however point in their direction.

Did you not see the manc game?

The failings over 90 minutes were as plain as the nose holding the rose tinted glasses on your face.
I did see the full 90 minutes and you can attempt to tell me all is well and the manager has unrestrained access to the transfer markets which will prompt the response 'you are talking out of your arse'.

Jürgen might indicate he is not restricted in that sense and at this time use his unbelievable perception and repartee with the players to coax out skills nobody else can see; he knows what the club has achieved in previous years and will be well aware of expectation levels.
FSG have done their best to smother expectation levels with talk of ''success in the long term'' in spite of there being absolutely no sign of the buds of success sprouting now or anytime soon with the apparent forced acquisition of squad players and journeymen.

The truth is our business orientated owners have no loyalty, interest or will to champion LFC.
A sound commercial model that is self-sustaining and requires minimal or no financial input is NESV's perfect acquisition.

Look I'm no fan on theirs but you need to stop the blame game, if we fail to hit our targets then turn your anger towards Klopp who has stated more than once that he as the money but will spend when & where...

If we had won the FA Cup with Kenny, League with Rodgers & the League Cup & Europa Cup with Klopp I'm sure you would not be too vocal in blaming the owners...

Very small margins which could have seen us lift 4 more trophies under their ownership...

Look I'm no fan on theirs but you need to stop the blame game, if we fail to hit our targets then turn your anger towards Klopp who has stated more than once that he as the money but will spend when & where...

I am not playing the blame game, I am unfortunately stating fact.
We have a threadbare squad and knowing what I do about Klopp cannot imagine it being his doing or choice.

If we had won the FA Cup with Kenny, League with Rodgers & the League Cup & Europa Cup with Klopp I'm sure you would not be too vocal in blaming the owners...

If we had won those trophies and do win some under Jürgen I would be made up, as made up as anyone on this forum.
We didn't and the threadbare squad Jürgen juggles with the lack of quality in depth means the manager is facing an uphill task.

Very small margins which could have seen us lift 4 more trophies under their ownership...

Small margins, very small margins, large margins, multicolour margins - they all translate as winning zilch.

We have a threadbare squad and knowing what I do about Klopp cannot imagine it being his doing or choice.

I normally stay out of this Stuey, really don't like getting into this argument but to be honest with you this is exactly how Klopp operates and every legitimate source out there said he did not want a big squad for this season, and is not into buying ready-made players if they do not meet his very strict criteria; and that he sees very little value in the January winter. It has been noted ad nausea that he refuses to buy a player for the short term and if a target that he wants is unavailable then he won't go out and get a poor mans version just for the sake of it, he'd rather see what he has in his own system to fill gaps and give them a chance.

Even a cursory review of his pressers and statements say's that this is either the truth and/or he is lying out his arse. The manager is not a yes man and if he was underwhelmed or under-supported by the owners than he would not of signed an extension...fact is he could angrily walk tomorrow and have a top job anywhere in the world he wanted.

I really have little doubt that he has carte blanche at LFC with money, authority, final word and everything that does or does not happen is up to him because that is exactly how he told us it was.