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      How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?

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      LondonRed83
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #23: May 21, 2017 09:47:13 pm
      It's comical.

      We smashed these teams early on too, so much so that each and every team played with two banks of 5, almost never leaving their own half. Apparently though, at that point "we'd been found out".

      Then we came unstuck a little, but that dip in form also coincided with our worst run of injuries and Mane having to leave for the AFCON, Jürgen adapted though, against all the bullshit you heard thrown at him that has now dimmed as it it was never there.

      Our points total by year is as follows:

      91' - 64
      92' - 59
      93' - 60
      94' - 74
      95' - 71
      96' - 68
      97' - 65
      98' - 54
      99' - 67
      00' - 69
      01' - 80
      02' - 64
      03' - 60
      04' - 58
      05' - 82
      06' - 68
      07' - 76
      08' - 86
      09' - 63
      10' - 58
      11' - 52
      12' - 61
      13' - 84
      14' - 62
      15' - 60
      16' - 76

      So, just 5 times in the last 26 years have we achieved a points tally equal or greater than this. Yet words like disaster and suicidal are thrown around. Accusations that the manager is clueless and picking the wrong players or the latest hilarious episode (just because Sturridge played ahead of Firmino) that a "plan B has emerged".

      The truth is that Jürgen has done very well taking over a weak squad and turning them, very quickly, into a squad that has qualified for the CL. Highly commendable, nothing stupid, suicidal or disastrous anywhere near what we've achieved this year.

      Absolutely agree. +16 season on season is massive!

      Fantastic job by the German. I think he's going to be brilliant in the champions league next year. Can't wait to watch him wave his magic.
      bigmick
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #24: May 21, 2017 09:49:46 pm
      Disaster's a bit much. We did get top 4 after all.

      I'm not sure disaster is a bit much mate. We'd have won the bugger if we'd have been more efficient at putting away the sh!te teams.
      bigmick
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #25: May 21, 2017 10:06:18 pm
      It's comical.

      We smashed these teams early on too, so much so that each and every team played with two banks of 5, almost never leaving their own half. Apparently though, at that point "we'd been found out".

      Then we came unstuck a little, but that dip in form also coincided with our worst run of injuries and Mane having to leave for the AFCON, Jürgen adapted though, against all the bullshit you heard thrown at him that has now dimmed as it it was never there.

      So, just 5 times in the last 26 years have we achieved a points tally equal or greater than this. Yet words like disaster and suicidal are thrown around. Accusations that the manager is clueless and picking the wrong players or the latest hilarious episode (just because Sturridge played ahead of Firmino) that a "plan B has emerged".

      The truth is that Jürgen has done very well taking over a weak squad and turning them, very quickly, into a squad that has qualified for the CL. Highly commendable, nothing stupid, suicidal or disastrous anywhere near what we've achieved this year.



      Well Luke if you don't think we have been at least to an extent "found out" by the weaker teams, you'd be in a significant minority of anyone who knows anything about football that I've listened to. As for a "plan B emerging", it is to be hoped I'm right and we are in the process of seeing it take shape. If I aren't and our intention is to once again try and play exactly the same way in absolutely all of the matches, you can be absolutely certain that we are going to come unstuck against bus parkers next season as well.

      Fortunately I have far more faith in Jürgen than most of the drum bangers. For instance I'm certain that he now realises that going into the season with such a thin squad was a huge mistake and he won't do it again, he's admitted as much. That's what top managers do, they realise they've made a mistake, they admit it, correct it and move on. Unfortunately for some of the drum bangers, they protested so loudly back in the Summer than anybody who could possibly disagree with Jürgen must by definition  be wrong, that now they're a little lost as to what to say. The problem always is of course that while Jürgen can admit he was wrong without a bother, for them it's very tough to do the same. Jürgen WAS wrong (and now of course is RIGHT as he's admitted it) and he definitely won't make the same mistake again IMHO, as I've got more faith in him than that. Equally, Jürgen could do what the drum bangers do and deny the obvious fact that teams have worked us out a bit, or he could change plan, find a plan B as it were. He could say "ah it was just down to injuries, or maybe ift was the AFCON", or maybe he could try and convince himself that we were just "unlucky". My faith in him is such though that he won't waste his time with the self delusion that the drum bangers endulge in, he and Buvak the brain have already IMHO got a plan to counter the BP's (bus parkers) next season.

      Equally, Jürgen will know that had we been better at beating the sh!te we could have won the league. Like me, the fact that the failure to do so cost us the chance I think he will consider it a "disaster". Winners, top managers think like that.   
      HScRed1
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #26: May 21, 2017 10:16:01 pm
      Can't deny if we treated the bottom feeders like the Top 2 have we would have been closer to Chelsea.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #27: May 21, 2017 10:18:10 pm
      Well Luke if you don't think we have been at least to an extent "found out" by the weaker teams

      No, I told you at the time Mick that we hadn't been found out and that Jürgen just needed to find a way to beat that style and we'd be fine. You see Jürgen had teams beat to almost submission, they came with a plan that bordered on desperate, an all out concession of possession and not to compete at all.


      Listen to Jürgen, you'll learn plenty if you do. He's explained exactly how we've set up recently and he's explained exactly how this had nothing to do with a plan B... despite the rest of your ego rubbing.

      Equally, Jürgen will know that had we been better at beating the sh!te we could have won the league. Like me

      Nah Mick, none of this washes whatsoever. At the start of the season you had us down for 6th or 7th, you actually thought that we'd never compete with the teams that spend more than us. That it was a fact that money = CL all of which Jürgen has turned on it's head. He's got a negative net spend and has us back in the CL. Those are the facts Mick.

      You actually thought the choice to go into the season with the squad we had was "suicidal" management. You don't achieve 76 points with suicidal management. You don't improve on the previous season by 16 points with suicidal management.

      So no disasters, no suicidal management, actually a season of tremendous progress and getting CL football when the league is probably filled with the best set of managers it's had in a very long time.
      bigmick
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #28: May 21, 2017 10:20:28 pm
      Can't deny if we treated the bottom feeders like the Top 2 have we would have been closer to Chelsea.

      You can, read the post directly below yours!  ;D
      bigmick
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #29: May 21, 2017 10:25:01 pm
      No, I told you at the time Mick that we hadn't been found out and that Jürgen just needed to find a way to beat that style and we'd be fine. You see Jürgen had teams beat to almost submission, they came with a plan that bordered on desperate, an all out concession of possession and not to compete at all.




      OK, we hadn't been "found out", nor did we need a "plan B". Jürgen just "needed to find a way to beat that style and we'd be fine". This is one of your odd moments I can see it in advance mate, one of those where you agree with me but swear blind you're not agreeing with me.

      Anyway you've convinced me. We weren't "found out" and we didn't "need a plan B" to counter the system where teams just gave us the ball and retreated. On the contrary, we just had to wait until Jürgen "found a way to beat that style" and now "we're fine". Glad we've cleared that one up.   :roll:

      KopiteLuke
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #30: May 21, 2017 10:31:52 pm
      OK, we hadn't been "found out", nor did we need a "plan B". Jürgen just "needed to find a way to beat that style and we'd be fine". This is one of your odd moments I can see it in advance mate, one of those where you agree with me but swear blind you're not agreeing with me.

      Anyway you've convinced me. We weren't "found out" and we didn't "need a plan B" to counter the system where teams just gave us the ball and retreated. On the contrary, we just had to wait until Jürgen "found a way to beat that style" and now "we're fine". Glad we've cleared that one up.   :roll:



      :lmao:

      No Mick, I'm telling you what Jürgen has been saying.

      I assume you've been listening. It's about patience, confidence and ability to execute the plan with less space. He's said that our lads have allowed themselves to lose faith and tried to force things far too early.

      Or should I say that if you think you've been seeing "long diagonals", "giving them the ball for long enough that they come out" then you're deluded. (these were in fact your ideas of a "plan B" at the time, that we should have kept Benteke for such a plan B")

      What do you reckon Mick, should we go after Benteke for next season, bring him back for those plan B's against the likes of Barca/Juve/Real/Bayern? :D

      bigmick
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #31: May 21, 2017 10:46:15 pm
      :lmao:

      No Mick, I'm telling you what Jürgen has been saying.

      I assume you've been listening. It's about patience, confidence and ability to execute the plan with less space. He's said that our lads have allowed themselves to lose faith and tried to force things far too early.

      Or should I say that if you think you've been seeing "long diagonals", "giving them the ball for long enough that they come out" then you're deluded. (these were in fact your ideas of a "plan B" at the time, that we should have kept Benteke for such a plan B")

      What do you reckon Mick, should we go after Benteke for next season, bring him back for those plan B's against the likes of Barca/Juve/Real/Bayern? :D



      Oh dear. I can always tell when you're struggling mate because you begin to make stuff up. It's particularly embarrassing when I haven't even been posting aside from in one thread, so when I said I saw a plan B "emerging" I didn't actually say any of the things you've put in quotes. I didn't say I'd seen "long diagonals" I said I saw us being "more direct" (so did Jürgen too which is nice). There aren't many posts to go through, I'll leave it with you. I've never heard ANYONE say that we should "give them the ball for long enough that they come out". Is it a mistype or have you lost your marbles or something?

      As for Benteke, no I wouldn't "go after him" for next season no. We might have been better served if we'd had him rather than Origi on occasions this season, but as it is I think we got a fair price for him, particularly given Jürgen doesn't rate him. He had a poor season at Palace IMHO, but I guess 13 goals or whatever it was in a team which flirted with relegation isn't a total disaster. Buy him back though? No.

      My guess is however that next season we will see a further development of a "plan B" which WILL see us playing on occasions more direct. I hope so, there has always been more than one way to win a football match.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #32: May 21, 2017 11:08:20 pm
      Oh dear. I can always tell when you're struggling mate because you begin to make stuff up. It's particularly embarrassing when I haven't even been posting aside from in one thread, so when I said I saw a plan B "emerging" I didn't actually say any of the things you've put in quotes.

      Where did I say you said that in your new thread, you said it much earlier in the season, or do you deny it?

      As for Benteke, no I wouldn't "go after him" for next season no. We might have been better served if we'd had him rather than Origi on occasions this season, but as it is I think we got a fair price for him, particularly given Jürgen doesn't rate him. He had a poor season at Palace IMHO, but I guess 13 goals or whatever it was in a team which flirted with relegation isn't a total disaster. Buy him back though? No.

      Nice to see you're learning.

      My guess is however that next season we will see a further development of a "plan B" which WILL see us playing on occasions more direct. I hope so, there has always been more than one way to win a football match.

      Yeah, it's a nice switch Mick. From earlier in the season literally remonstrating that Benteke was the answer, that allowing him to leave and having no "plan B" in place was amateurish. No worries Mick, we're now being more direct which in your opinion is a Plan B. However if you listen to Jürgen he'll describe clearly to you that what he wants is for us to move between the lines quicker. Not hitting the striker quicker but actually asking the full-backs to be that option on the outside and the midfielders to make their runs more direct between the lines therefore committing the defenders and making them have to make decisions. In fact he describes it as quite simply being better at plan A, but you carry on.

      You might have heard this exact message somewhere on the forum if you'd cared to read it.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #33: May 22, 2017 03:03:33 am
      What the season showed once again was it's the ability to consistently smash the cannon fodder which ultimately decides who gets the title or the top spots. Our record against the top 6 was enviable, but our inability to beat sh!te teams was a disaster. Equally, although the league is physically demanding, the actual quality in depth isn't anywhere near so strong as SKY would have you believe. Once you get down to Everton in 7th, the top two basically smash them Home and Away every week, racking up cricket scores in the process. Also interesting that two out of the top four had no European football, obviously a huge advantage. Luckily nobody will have that next season out of the big clubs, although both the Arsenal and the Mancs will surely take the Europa League less than seriously early on, just to ensure they do better in the league next time.   

      Our ability to beat "sh*te teams" was our glaringly obvious Achilles Heel - this is why for me the campaign was frustrating. I don't think anyone would, or honestly could try and state otherwise unless they just want to be plain silly about things - which wouldn't surprise me from one or two.

      I also believe, and stand by the point that once a few teams had seen how we couldn't cope with breaking low block teams down, after realising early on that we could just blow them away. This became the go-to manager's plan - even the ex-P.E teacher down at Plymouth earned himself an admirable reply by low blocking us. It was like every manager, was copying his previous manager's game plan that was effective against us.

      The bliiiiip lasted too long to be considered a mere hiccup. It saw us drop off the cliff in keeping apace with Chelsea who were at one point 13 points? behind us, IIRC, then extended a handsome 17 point lead on us by the end of the season. Credit to Conte, he did well in his first season proper but that swing in point difference was largely down to our failings. I didn't expect us to win the league but there was some hope there from the beginning of what, was a fantastic start from us.

      I have to say, while credit goes to Jürgen for taking us into the CL, I do think he got a few things wrong this season. He clearly underestimated the rigour of English football for one, and he'd been here three quarters of a season prior that. Then, we didn't change our shape/play until our 36th game! That is an extraordinarily slow reaction from the boss. It doesn't mean however had he have changed it prior to our 36th game things would have definitely have worked, but it was very hard to see any changes in our play at all since the turn of the year. It was at times like footballing insanity, doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome. Sometimes it would come, but it would lead you into a false sense of security, and then it would revert to type. That said, we changed the shape eventually, whether it was by design or circumstance (Sturridge coming back), is by the by, we scored 7 goals in our last two games and conceded 0. Being flexible and adaptable is something I think the boss needs to become more accustomed to IMHO.

      Another point of note - Philippe Coutinho finished the season as top goal scorer. Firstly, credit to him for being the first Brazillian (a while back he did this and it pretty much went unnoticed), to smash Juninho's record of 30 goals from a Brazilian in top flight English football. The point though, Coutinho missed a fair chunk of football, so to did Mane, but being that reliant on goals from a #10 also highlights for me, the fact we need a proper #9 chasing down goals next season, and not just chasing down space and defenders.

      Defense is an issue still, I saw yesterday Lovren (your mate) had a couple of moments, and while biased, I don't think it was a pen, but that sh*t can easily go against you 50/50. He's a liability, and there's no two ways about it. We also need fullbacks now who can offer width that we've lacked along with more attacking prowess in the final third.

      When everything is said and done and putting aside his faults, Klopp deserves a lot of credit for our final league finish, and though I  can only echo Robbie Fowler's words about finishing 4th, it's a foundation of progress that has been laid by the German. and something for him to build on. I like him, he looks, sounds and feels like a fellow fan, passionate about our success and it's one of his best traits that seem to reverberate around the whole club.

      Next season Jürgen, we go again.

      « Last Edit: May 22, 2017 10:33:58 am by Beerbelly »
      bigmick
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #34: May 22, 2017 09:23:04 am
      Brilliant post that Belly, agree with every word (except those about Dejan  :lmao:). Mind you, he was f****** brutal yesterday I must admit. When he's bad, he's proper bad.
      srslfc
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #35: May 23, 2017 11:04:51 am
      Our ability to beat "sh*te teams" was our glaringly obvious Achilles Heel - this is why for me the campaign was frustrating. I don't think anyone would, or honestly could try and state otherwise unless they just want to be plain silly about things - which wouldn't surprise me from one or two.

      I also believe, and stand by the point that once a few teams had seen how we couldn't cope with breaking low block teams down, after realising early on that we could just blow them away. This became the go-to manager's plan - even the ex-P.E teacher down at Plymouth earned himself an admirable reply by low blocking us. It was like every manager, was copying his previous manager's game plan that was effective against us.

      The bliiiiip lasted too long to be considered a mere hiccup. It saw us drop off the cliff in keeping apace with Chelsea who were at one point 13 points? behind us, IIRC, then extended a handsome 17 point lead on us by the end of the season. Credit to Conte, he did well in his first season proper but that swing in point difference was largely down to our failings. I didn't expect us to win the league but there was some hope there from the beginning of what, was a fantastic start from us.

      I have to say, while credit goes to Jürgen for taking us into the CL, I do think he got a few things wrong this season. He clearly underestimated the rigour of English football for one, and he'd been here three quarters of a season prior that. Then, we didn't change our shape/play until our 36th game! That is an extraordinarily slow reaction from the boss. It doesn't mean however had he have changed it prior to our 36th game things would have definitely have worked, but it was very hard to see any changes in our play at all since the turn of the year. It was at times like footballing insanity, doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome. Sometimes it would come, but it would lead you into a false sense of security, and then it would revert to type. That said, we changed the shape eventually, whether it was by design or circumstance (Sturridge coming back), is by the by, we scored 7 goals in our last two games and conceded 0. Being flexible and adaptable is something I think the boss needs to become more accustomed to IMHO.

      Another point of note - Philippe Coutinho finished the season as top goal scorer. Firstly, credit to him for being the first Brazillian (a while back he did this and it pretty much went unnoticed), to smash Juninho's record of 30 goals from a Brazilian in top flight English football. The point though, Coutinho missed a fair chunk of football, so to did Mane, but being that reliant on goals from a #10 also highlights for me, the fact we need a proper #9 chasing down goals next season, and not just chasing down space and defenders.

      Defense is an issue still, I saw yesterday Lovren (your mate) had a couple of moments, and while biased, I don't think it was a pen, but that sh*t can easily go against you 50/50. He's a liability, and there's no two ways about it. We also need fullbacks now who can offer width that we've lacked along with more attacking prowess in the final third.

      When everything is said and done and putting aside his faults, Klopp deserves a lot of credit for our final league finish, and though I  can only echo Robbie Fowler's words about finishing 4th, it's a foundation of progress that has been laid by the German. and something for him to build on. I like him, he looks, sounds and feels like a fellow fan, passionate about our success and it's one of his best traits that seem to reverberate around the whole club.

      Next season Jürgen, we go again.



      Great post Beer and I fully agree on the point about Jürgen being slow to react during the season and it's staggering it took us to game 36 to change things up a bit.

      I think he'll think back on that as a mistake and it won't be made next season.
      MIRO
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #36: May 24, 2017 03:41:25 pm
      Um its      76  !


      Do I get a prize ?
      ;D


      bad boy bubby
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #37: May 25, 2017 03:09:32 pm
      Um its      76  !


      Do I get a prize ?
      ;D



      I hope t'sweet F**k you do... 😉


      Nostradam🐭?
      MIRO
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      Re: How many points do we need to qualify for the CL?
      Reply #38: May 25, 2017 04:41:31 pm
      I hope t'sweet f**k you do... 😉

      Nostradam🐭?

      Fat chance .
      If I was I could have scrabbled out of the Championship in the  Prediction League. ;D

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