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      A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!

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      bigmick
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      A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      : May 15, 2017 09:31:50 am »
      I enjoyed yesterday, a lot. Not just because we put our best performance in for weeks, not just because we've now given ourselves a great chance of actually being able to spend some money in the Summer, but because finally, belatedly, we appear to have arrived at a potential solution to bus parkers. Whether it was Buvak the brain who thought it up, whether it was Jürgen, one of his analysts or whether someone had a word in his shell-like and said "read the LFC Reds forum FFS" matters not a jot, we've gotten there in the end and the future looks a lot brighter.

      Lets look at the alterations and how they panned out:

      1. Playing a proper striker. I've put this one first simply because it's been the one most people have been banging on about for longest. Danny Sturridge is a PROPER striker, the only one in our squad arguably, and man did it show? Yes he doesn't run around a lot, I'm afraid he doesn't put lots of slide tackles in nor will he ever get into double figures in the "sprints for no discernible reason" table, but what he does do he's pretty good at. Having been told for long enough now that he hasn't the pace to run in behind anymore, it was heartening to see him run in behind for half the length of the pitch for the first goal. No surprise that when he got there he finished, as proper strikers do that. See running in behind isn't just about pace (which Sturridge undoubtedly has less of these days) it's also about instinct, anticipation, subtlety, desire. Without the last four (which Danny has in buckets) the first one ain't a lot of chop to you. Otherwise Man Utd would have signed Usain Bolt long ago, which sadly they didn't.

      So what does a proper striker give you? Well a kill or be killed desire to score a goal at all costs in the main thing. It was a surprise to see Sturridge miskick from four yards out when the ball ricoched to him in the second half, but it wasn't a surprise that he was there, ready to knock it in. Neither was it a surprise that he bust a gut on many occasions getting in front of his man and open in the box, the ball didn't come but it will, that's what proper strikers do. It wasn't a surprise that he frustrated on occasions by always taking the shot on. Step over, shift it, hit it, that's what proper strikers do. And it wasn't a surprise that as a team we looked massively more potent, proper strikers do that.

      Lets be clear here, Sturridge isn't the answer longer term, or even medium term. He'll be gone at the end of the season and rightly so IMHO given his injury record. What his cameo did yesterday though surely is demonstrate once and for all that a PROPER striker or two in the squad is a must, and having one on the pitch if fit equally a given. Neither Firmino nor Origi are a PROPER striker in the Sturridge class, and it's imperative that we replace him with a bona fide alternative, then play that man regularly.

      Sturridge was a breath of fresh air yesterday and part one of the solution to the parked bus emerging from the fog. I'll do the others later or it'll be a book.         
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      bigmick
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #1 : May 15, 2017 09:52:39 am »
      Reasons to be cheerful number 2: Coutinho in midfield.


      I've always felt it a good starting point in sport to by and large do whatever it is that your opponent would really rather you didn't do. If I was playing against us, minimising the number of times our best player touches the ball would form a significant part of the game plan, much as it does when you play Chelsea with Hazard or Arsenal with Sanchez. Too often when Phil is wide left (particularly if we aren't playing well) he gets very isolated. Clever teams bomb the right back on a bit and force him to track back too. Before you know where you are you've got someone putting up a heat map with a big splodge on the pitch somewhere (which apparently shows that he's had more touches around the half way line than anywhere else), who'd have thunk it? 

      So the midfield switch made sense to me. I actually think we've been toying with it for a while now, Phil has been getting deep[er and deeper and more and more central for a few games recently. Yesterday was IMHO the first time we actually selected him there as opposed to encouraging him to gravitate towards the pocket, but we've been looking at it for a bit. It worked brilliantly yesterday and it's no surprise.

      A WORD OF CAUTION: Bus parkers won't ask Phil a question defensively very often, but better teams will. He'll need proper players with lots of legs in and around him, Lucas would absolutely not be an option. Equally, we are going to need a solution when somebody man marks him (which I undoubtedly would if we lined him up there regularly). Switching him and Lallana at the points of the diamond and so playing Phil in the 10 would pose a new problem (flipping the triangle maybe ;D), but it'll need to be worked on.

      Anyway Coutinho is a God and I agree with Beerbelly, he reminds me a lot of Aimar in there. Not so easy to park the bus when you've got our best player pulling the strings.       
      Beerbelly
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #2 : May 15, 2017 10:18:21 am »
      Two good posts there that I agree with.

      You're right, on reflection Coutinho has been dropping deeper more recently so we may have been toying with the idea. I insinuated this was another reason for Firmino being out and Sturridge coming back in - having two orthodox strikers in tandem (Origi & Studge). But credit to Jürgen for doing this, he could have easily have played Couts out wide.

      The only thing that won't be in your "book" which I think we should have tried a while back is playing Milner at RB, and Clyne LB. I think this would have helped us against all those bus parkers. Let's be fair here, Clyne's delivery and threat down the right hand flank is pretty non-existent, and when we've needed to use the width to aide in breaking down those parkers we haven't had it. Milner if played on his natural foot will attack those flanks better and whip in quality crosses that we've pretty much missed all season long.

      It should also be said, that we do need a left footer in the LB position eventually. Yesterday was a perfect example, in the first half Sturridge was on the shoulder of their defense and in space waiting for an early pass from Milner. Milner had to readjust and get the ball back onto his right foot before he could try and play Sturridge through. Sturridge tried to hold the run but it was too late by the time Milner realised it and he was offside.

      Playing Milner at LB has hindered us against the bus parkers, and Clyne at RB. All season long, and nothing was changed, we should have just swapped those two and then, at least one flank would have offered threat from wider areas.
      bigmick
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #3 : May 15, 2017 10:22:36 am »
      RTB number 3: "Much more direct!".

      "We told the boys at half time, much more direct please!" and I think in that moment, at that after match interview, Jürgen began to "get" what is needed to win lots of football matches in the Premiership against bus parkers. If the opposition are going to sit on the edge of their own box and give you the ball back without a murmur, it isn't necessary for us to waste 90 seconds each time passing the ball slowly from side to side before trying a pass in their final third. All the oppo are trying to do is nick the ball off of us while we're building and then break on us, so give them LESS opportunity not more. Ball retention isn't the be all and end all it normally is, because they are quite simply going to give it back to us in any case PROVIDING WE LOSE IT IN THEIR DEFENSIVE THIRD.

      Very significant this. If the opposition insist on sitting on the edge of their own box, lets then play the entire game with the ball in and around their final third. Lets be quicker, bolder, YES more direct if necessary, and lets get the ball in and around their box ALL OF THE TIME. Gegenpresse the second ball, recycle and go again. My guess is pretty quickly teams will not fancy sitting in so deep ( as they don't against Man City, Tottenham and Chelsea) and will feel the need to get their defensive line up the pitch ten paces. We've then got to be a little more careful as they become more dangerous, but we'll find it far easier to break teams down.

      Against bus parkers, go MUCH more direct. Amen Jürgen.,         
      andylfcynwa
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #4 : May 15, 2017 10:48:49 am »
      I enjoyed yesterday, a lot. Not just because we put our best performance in for weeks, not just because we've now given ourselves a great chance of actually being able to spend some money in the Summer, but because finally, belatedly, we appear to have arrived at a potential solution to bus parkers. Whether it was Buvak the brain who thought it up, whether it was Jürgen, one of his analysts or whether someone had a word in his shell-like and said "read the LFC Reds forum FFS" matters not a jot, we've gotten there in the end and the future looks a lot brighter.

      Lets look at the alterations and how they panned out:

      1. Playing a proper striker. I've put this one first simply because it's been the one most people have been banging on about for longest. Danny Sturridge is a PROPER striker, the only one in our squad arguably, and man did it show? Yes he doesn't run around a lot, I'm afraid he doesn't put lots of slide tackles in nor will he ever get into double figures in the "sprints for no discernible reason" table, but what he does do he's pretty good at. Having been told for long enough now that he hasn't the pace to run in behind anymore, it was heartening to see him run in behind for half the length of the pitch for the first goal. No surprise that when he got there he finished, as proper strikers do that. See running in behind isn't just about pace (which Sturridge undoubtedly has less of these days) it's also about instinct, anticipation, subtlety, desire. Without the last four (which Danny has in buckets) the first one ain't a lot of chop to you. Otherwise Man Utd would have signed Usain Bolt long ago, which sadly they didn't.

      So what does a proper striker give you? Well a kill or be killed desire to score a goal at all costs in the main thing. It was a surprise to see Sturridge miskick from four yards out when the ball ricoched to him in the second half, but it wasn't a surprise that he was there, ready to knock it in. Neither was it a surprise that he bust a gut on many occasions getting in front of his man and open in the box, the ball didn't come but it will, that's what proper strikers do. It wasn't a surprise that he frustrated on occasions by always taking the shot on. Step over, shift it, hit it, that's what proper strikers do. And it wasn't a surprise that as a team we looked massively more potent, proper strikers do that.

      Lets be clear here, Sturridge isn't the answer longer term, or even medium term. He'll be gone at the end of the season and rightly so IMHO given his injury record. What his cameo did yesterday though surely is demonstrate once and for all that a PROPER striker or two in the squad is a must, and having one on the pitch if fit equally a given. Neither Firmino nor Origi are a PROPER striker in the Sturridge class, and it's imperative that we replace him with a bona fide alternative, then play that man regularly.

      Sturridge was a breath of fresh air yesterday and part one of the solution to the parked bus emerging from the fog. I'll do the others later or it'll be a book.         

      Good post nice to see you back Mick
      Joey B
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #5 : May 15, 2017 11:06:04 am »
      Yep !! I enjoyed above too Mick.No moaning or slagging.A very good analyse.Well in mate.
      tezmac
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #6 : May 15, 2017 12:01:03 pm »
      Very thoghtfull post Mick enjoyed reading it
      FL Red
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #7 : May 15, 2017 03:19:05 pm »
       Great to see you back fella but really....three separate posts just to maximize your pluses? You're better than that :D
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #8 : May 15, 2017 04:01:36 pm »
      INRAT
      Scottbot
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #9 : May 15, 2017 04:31:28 pm »
      RTB number 3: "Much more direct!".

      "We told the boys at half time, much more direct please!" and I think in that moment, at that after match interview, Jürgen began to "get" what is needed to win lots of football matches in the Premiership against bus parkers. If the opposition are going to sit on the edge of their own box and give you the ball back without a murmur, it isn't necessary for us to waste 90 seconds each time passing the ball slowly from side to side before trying a pass in their final third. All the oppo are trying to do is nick the ball off of us while we're building and then break on us, so give them LESS opportunity not more. Ball retention isn't the be all and end all it normally is, because they are quite simply going to give it back to us in any case PROVIDING WE LOSE IT IN THEIR DEFENSIVE THIRD.

      Very significant this. If the opposition insist on sitting on the edge of their own box, lets then play the entire game with the ball in and around their final third. Lets be quicker, bolder, YES more direct if necessary, and lets get the ball in and around their box ALL OF THE TIME. Gegenpresse the second ball, recycle and go again. My guess is pretty quickly teams will not fancy sitting in so deep ( as they don't against Man City, Tottenham and Chelsea) and will feel the need to get their defensive line up the pitch ten paces. We've then got to be a little more careful as they become more dangerous, but we'll find it far easier to break teams down.

      Against bus parkers, go MUCH more direct. Amen Jürgen.,         

      Three good posts mate, particularly this one. I fully agree, lets not fall into the trap of getting sucked further and further forward to the point where (when it breaks down) we are very easy to counter and our lads can't press it because the majority of them are then beyond the ball.

      the fact Jürgen played two up top for much of the game yesterday was also a huge difference maker, it much easy to be direct if you've got two lads in contact and able to play off of eachother as Studge and Origi were able to do yesterday. It's funny because some are already saying that "Studge has been frozen out all season" but the truth is that he has been poor almost everytime he has played this season. So either he has suddenly found some extra layer of fitness OR he benefited a great deal from having a partner in crime playing in and around him in the final third.

      I'm convinced that if we could find a forward who can get anywhere near the tradition of the club in recent years (ie. Suarez, Torres, Fowler, Owen) we'd be challenging for the title. A better frontman (frontmen) means we don't have to take 10 minutes to get from one end of the pitch to the other and it also means we don't have to throw so many bloody players forward which leaves the back 4 (or should I say two!) vulnerable everytime we lose the ball.

      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #10 : May 15, 2017 05:32:57 pm »
      the fact Jürgen played two up top for much of the game yesterday was also a huge difference maker, it much easy to be direct if you've got two lads in contact and able to play off of eachother as Studge and Origi were able to do yesterday.

      Question is, would our 2 strikers be as effective as they were yesterday without Coutinho playing in that deeper role?

      Not once have we had a player like that throughout the season in the middle of the park. Not Hendo, Lucas, Can, Wijnaldum, and as good as Lallana has been in the middle and linking midfield and attack, he does not do what Coutinho does.
      HScRed1
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #11 : May 15, 2017 05:33:36 pm »
      RTB number 3: "Much more direct!".

      "We told the boys at half time, much more direct please!" and I think in that moment, at that after match interview, Jürgen began to "get" what is needed to win lots of football matches in the Premiership against bus parkers. If the opposition are going to sit on the edge of their own box and give you the ball back without a murmur, it isn't necessary for us to waste 90 seconds each time passing the ball slowly from side to side before trying a pass in their final third. All the oppo are trying to do is nick the ball off of us while we're building and then break on us, so give them LESS opportunity not more. Ball retention isn't the be all and end all it normally is, because they are quite simply going to give it back to us in any case PROVIDING WE LOSE IT IN THEIR DEFENSIVE THIRD.

      Very significant this. If the opposition insist on sitting on the edge of their own box, lets then play the entire game with the ball in and around their final third. Lets be quicker, bolder, YES more direct if necessary, and lets get the ball in and around their box ALL OF THE TIME. Gegenpresse the second ball, recycle and go again. My guess is pretty quickly teams will not fancy sitting in so deep ( as they don't against Man City, Tottenham and Chelsea) and will feel the need to get their defensive line up the pitch ten paces. We've then got to be a little more careful as they become more dangerous, but we'll find it far easier to break teams down.

      Against bus parkers, go MUCH more direct. Amen Jürgen.,         

      Agree with your first two posts but not the this one.

      You don't beat the bus parkers by being more direct, it makes no difference  to them as their back line will gobble up anything thrown at them in such a manner.
      You don't see City, Chelsea or Spurs beating the dross in such a manner.
      Its a fallacy that the teams above don't face bus parkers regularly its just a fact we have not figured out how to beat such teams regularly with any frequency.

      West ham yesterday certainly did not park the bus, in fact they did f**k all with any conviction leaving space all over the park for us to exploit.

      The way you beat such teams is with your superior skills creating overlaps and 1v1 situations with quick crisp passing of course the caveat is having forwards you can exploit the dross.

      Leaving Chelsea aside Spurs and City have consistently twatted the dross this season and it certainly was not by going direct.

      Thats not to say the long ball cannot be effective.

      BTW Good to see you posting again.

      Robby The Z
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #12 : May 15, 2017 06:06:40 pm »
      RTB number 3: "Much more direct!".

      "We told the boys at half time, much more direct please!" and I think in that moment, at that after match interview, Jürgen began to "get" what is needed to win lots of football matches in the Premiership against bus parkers. If the opposition are going to sit on the edge of their own box and give you the ball back without a murmur, it isn't necessary for us to waste 90 seconds each time passing the ball slowly from side to side before trying a pass in their final third. All the oppo are trying to do is nick the ball off of us while we're building and then break on us, so give them LESS opportunity not more. Ball retention isn't the be all and end all it normally is, because they are quite simply going to give it back to us in any case PROVIDING WE LOSE IT IN THEIR DEFENSIVE THIRD.

      Very significant this. If the opposition insist on sitting on the edge of their own box, lets then play the entire game with the ball in and around their final third. Lets be quicker, bolder, YES more direct if necessary, and lets get the ball in and around their box ALL OF THE TIME. Gegenpresse the second ball, recycle and go again. My guess is pretty quickly teams will not fancy sitting in so deep ( as they don't against Man City, Tottenham and Chelsea) and will feel the need to get their defensive line up the pitch ten paces. We've then got to be a little more careful as they become more dangerous, but we'll find it far easier to break teams down.

      Against bus parkers, go MUCH more direct. Amen Jürgen.,       

      So would you use a different lineup for bus parkers vs. the one you use for teams try to play?
      Scottbot
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #13 : May 15, 2017 07:07:09 pm »
      Agree with your first two posts but not the this one.

      You don't beat the bus parkers by being more direct, it makes no difference  to them as their back line will gobble up anything thrown at them in such a manner.
      You don't see City, Chelsea or Spurs beating the dross in such a manner.
      Its a fallacy that the teams above don't face bus parkers regularly its just a fact we have not figured out how to beat such teams regularly with any frequency.

      West ham yesterday certainly did not park the bus, in fact they did f**k all with any conviction leaving space all over the park for us to exploit.

      The way you beat such teams is with your superior skills creating overlaps and 1v1 situations with quick crisp passing of course the caveat is having forwards you can exploit the dross.

      Leaving Chelsea aside Spurs and City have consistently twatted the dross this season and it certainly was not by going direct.

      Thats not to say the long ball cannot be effective.

      BTW Good to see you posting again.



      I don't think Mick is talking about playing long balls mate, I think he is talking about getting the ball into strikers feet far earlier rather than playing around the houses and being in a position (once we lose the ball) of being very easier to counter against.

      As for the other sides? I think City simply have more talent in their front three (and in particular with Aguero) than we do. Also, they have two genuine wide players in Sterling and Sane so they are not nearly as reliant as we are on the full backs to provide the width. I guess the same applies to the other sides, Costa and Kane are far superior in the number 9 position and have the physicality and mobility to play the line striker role (something that Studge does not possess)
      Scottbot
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #14 : May 15, 2017 07:10:11 pm »
      So would you use a different lineup for bus parkers vs. the one you use for teams try to play?


       You can't really knock Jürgen's tactics and line-up vs the better sides given he has turned most of them over and has us unbeaten against our rivals this season (not to mention big wins vs City twice and Chelsea last season). The better sides have too much ego to set up like the lower sides (mourinho aside) and play the spoiler game.
      HScRed1
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #15 : May 15, 2017 07:15:42 pm »
      I don't think Mick is talking about playing long balls mate, I think he is talking about getting the ball into strikers feet far earlier rather than playing around the houses and being in a position (once we lose the ball) of being very easier to counter against.

      As for the other sides? I think City simply have more talent in their front three (and in particular with Aguero) than we do. Also, they have two genuine wide players in Sterling and Sane so they are not nearly as reliant as we are on the full backs to provide the width. I guess the same applies to the other sides, Costa and Kane are far superior in the number 9 position and have the physicality and mobility to play the line striker role (something that Studge does not possess)

      Get the ball to the strikers quicker?

      Yup its the holy grail but without pulling defenders out of position it wont make any difference. Not even Kane and Costa can magic up goals on a regular basis.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #16 : May 15, 2017 07:53:12 pm »
      You can't really knock Jürgen's tactics and line-up vs the better sides given he has turned most of them over and has us unbeaten against our rivals this season (not to mention big wins vs City twice and Chelsea last season). The better sides have too much ego to set up like the lower sides (mourinho aside) and play the spoiler game.

      Understood. I'm talking about lineups. In an pen game, like we have against top sides, Mane, Phil, Adam and Firmino have a magic understanding. But against teams that bunker in, not sure Firmino is terribly effective.
      PastorGeek
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #17 : May 15, 2017 08:35:22 pm »
      If Sturridge leaves we will need 2 strikers. This is a squad game and we will have CL football with only Origi (and Ings) as recognizable strikers. Even 1 'world class' striker would not be enough in terms of squad depth. IMO Klopp needs to do everything to have him feel like he's an important part of the squad and then add another striker to the team.

      In addition, even Origi looked better when playing with a partner.
      bigmick
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #18 : May 16, 2017 09:07:14 am »
      Fair comment from FL Red about the pluses LOL although that wasn't the intention.

      I was going to make my last "Plan B" observation the revision to a two up top formation, but as many are already onto it there seems no point in repeating it. Like all things in football, one action impacts upon another and it just makes sense to have more people in and around the opposition box if we're going to get the ball in there quicker and more often.

      This idea of being more "direct" (which actually Jürgen talked about) doesn't of course mean we are just going to lump it into the mixer. It sounds like that so I get why people have reservations, but Scott was onto it in that it means just speeding up the elements a bit, being bolder, more expansive, being prepared to concede possession in order to try something (AS LONG AS IT'S IN THEIR THIRD). More "direct" means committing people in there ahead of the ball and then not being scared to put it in, it means less of the passing it around for 90 seconds on our half way line. Indeed that tactic is largely pointless against bus parkers, they ain't coming out unless you score, you could pass it around all day if you want. It means hitting the front man quicker, earlier, AND getting midfielders in and around him if the pass bounces off of him or is blocked. Cranking up the tempo and the pressure is what I took Jurgens "more direct" to mean, and that's how I saw us play the minute the second half kicked off.

      Last couple of points:

      Would we line up differently against bus parkers to top of the table teams? Absolutely. I'd go to Watford away and look to dominate from the off, two up top and play the game in their third. If that means they are going to take a point at home and bus park, then we have to force the issue. Chelsea away though? Obviously a different approach, and there a striker with Sturridge's lack of legs is probably uncarryable. A different more pragmatic, gegenpresse approach would continue to be our best bet.

      As for next season, fairly obviously two fullback who are more expansive going forward would make a huge difference. Like Belly I'm surprised Jürgen hasn't considered them switching sides this season, but next season two bombers is what we need.           
      billythered
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #19 : May 16, 2017 09:33:07 am »
      Three good posts mate, particularly this one. I fully agree, lets not fall into the trap of getting sucked further and further forward to the point where (when it breaks down) we are very easy to counter and our lads can't press it because the majority of them are then beyond the ball.

      the fact Jürgen played two up top for much of the game yesterday was also a huge difference maker, it much easy to be direct if you've got two lads in contact and able to play off of eachother as Studge and Origi were able to do yesterday. It's funny because some are already saying that "Studge has been frozen out all season" but the truth is that he has been poor almost everytime he has played this season. So either he has suddenly found some extra layer of fitness OR he benefited a great deal from having a partner in crime playing in and around him in the final third.

      I'm convinced that if we could find a forward who can get anywhere near the tradition of the club in recent years (ie. Suarez, Torres, Fowler, Owen) we'd be challenging for the title. A better frontman (frontmen) means we don't have to take 10 minutes to get from one end of the pitch to the other and it also means we don't have to throw so many bloody players forward which leaves the back 4 (or should I say two!) vulnerable everytime we lose the ball.




      James Rodriguez,  he'd fit the bill nicely, I'd go get him and piss the MUtants off, the Moaneyone wants him but we are a more attractive proposition with CL almost guaranteed, he'd love it here under Klopp et al

      YNWA
      Eddieo
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #20 : May 16, 2017 11:22:47 am »
      I'm not sure we can make any real judgments on Sundays game. I think we could of played almost any formation and we would of won. I my lifetime can't remember having seen a West Ham team play so poorly against us.

      The moment we scored the first goal they gave up.

      It was still a great game to watch and we made loads of chances but they helped
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #21 : May 16, 2017 01:52:23 pm »

      True that WHU were poor but I'm not sure that they gave up, as much as we suddenly found self-belief.  We got the confidence to start playing aggressively instead of tentatively.  The first goal and Sturridge dancing again was enough to trigger it.  Then we were just too good and WHU too depleted and demoralised to operate as a unit.

      This is a bloody talented bunch of players, no doubt about it, but sometimes they seem to have a collective attack of nerves that sends them into their shells.  I thought we came out fighting and thinking 'Sod it, let's make bloody sure; let's hold nothing back.'  Fair play to the lads and JK for that, its been a long time coming.

      Big Mick, thanks for the time and effort you put into those posts, excellent to see some real thinking and analysis.  May there be more of it. 
      I think you're pretty much right, although I'm not sure our approach on Sunday would have worked against the bus drivers of Watford and Southampton.  There wouldn't have been space for Phil to thread through-balls and dance around centre backs like he was able to.  The wings are the key.  Get down the flanks, get round the back, get it across, get bodies in quick, be first to the 2nd ball.  Sturridge, for me, is part of that equation because of his positional awareness and poacher's instincts and because he needs no time to pick out a shot.  Origi should be, as a presence with his physique, but seems not to have it in him.  Plus we keep the option of 1-2s and quick pass-and-gos when the defence is stretched wide to cover the wings. We've been too narrow for too long, partly a result of Clyne's weakness at delivery and Milner's predictability as a right-footer.

      Interesting to see what occurs in the summer as regards buying players to build on the tactics, or building tactics to suit the players!

      I reckon some mental and leadership strength needs buying in, as a priority, regardless of positions that need strengthening.

      YNWA
      redkop63
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #22 : May 16, 2017 09:52:46 pm »
      How well we performed in the game against the Hammers compared to the last few games was so contrasting in style that I find it difficult to understand why we couldn't perform like the way we did against west ham in every game? Was it because of the wrong tactics, lack of quality players, lack of self belief, lack of commitment or something else. But one thing for sure we're pretty inconsistent along the way.

      In hindsight, if we could turn 10 of those draws into wins, we could be challenging chelski to the very last game. 

      We simply need to be more consistent next season.
      althebest1
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #23 : May 17, 2017 11:16:08 am »
      The amount of points Jürgen has got out of this team, and outplaying our rivals without a proper striker is phenomenal, excited to see what we can do once he has dipped his toe into the transfer market.
      PastorGeek
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #24 : May 17, 2017 03:43:03 pm »
      The amount of points Jürgen has got out of this team, and outplaying our rivals without a proper striker is phenomenal, excited to see what we can do once he has dipped his toe into the transfer market.

      Not having 'a proper striker' is surely his fault isn't it? We sold (and didn't replace) a proven premier league goal scorer who got 15 goals for relegation fodder. Should he get credit for making our situation worse?
      althebest1
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #25 : May 17, 2017 04:05:15 pm »
      Not having 'a proper striker' is surely his fault isn't it? We sold (and didn't replace) a proven premier league goal scorer who got 15 goals for relegation fodder. Should he get credit for making our situation worse?

      Have you stopped to think that maybe "the" or any striker that he wanted was not available? He won't just buy anyone to keep us happy. Looks like he has made the right choice as he will no doubt have more options over the summer window. I don't understand your quote of making our situation worse? he has just got us in a position to play CL and push on?
      PastorGeek
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #26 : May 17, 2017 10:16:14 pm »
      Have you stopped to think that maybe "the" or any striker that he wanted was not available? He won't just buy anyone to keep us happy. Looks like he has made the right choice as he will no doubt have more options over the summer window. I don't understand your quote of making our situation worse? he has just got us in a position to play CL and push on?

      it's great that we got into a CL position. I feel like it's there or there about's to what is expected for us as a team tbh.

      I'm just thinking about the possibility that we could have been challenging for the title.

      I'm thinking about what a difference 10+ extra goals from a forward player could have meant to our season. Particularly when Mane was out. Perhaps if we were more willing to try 2 up front earlier. If it would make us a different proposition.

      Also what a difference Sahko would have made in our season. IMO we have voluntarily made our squad weaker and didn't get replacements.

      There is the theory that more 'pragmatic' managers do well in the premier league. Managers that come in and use the tools available and get the best out of the players they have (like Conte), rather than have a system that they stick to and are rigid in their beliefs (like Pep).

      It's just a theory of course. I personally think our season could have been better
      althebest1
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #27 : May 17, 2017 11:16:56 pm »
      it's great that we got into a CL position. I feel like it's there or there about's to what is expected for us as a team tbh.

      I'm just thinking about the possibility that we could have been challenging for the title.

      I'm thinking about what a difference 10+ extra goals from a forward player could have meant to our season. Particularly when Mane was out. Perhaps if we were more willing to try 2 up front earlier. If it would make us a different proposition.

      Also what a difference Sahko would have made in our season. IMO we have voluntarily made our squad weaker and didn't get replacements.

      There is the theory that more 'pragmatic' managers do well in the premier league. Managers that come in and use the tools available and get the best out of the players they have (like Conte), rather than have a system that they stick to and are rigid in their beliefs (like Pep).

      It's just a theory of course. I personally think our season could have been better

      To be honest, it was Chelsea's year, lots of points and would take a hell of a lot of beating....
      MIRO
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #28 : May 17, 2017 11:35:04 pm »
      So Mick ... put simply .... are you now giving a sh*t about Sunday and qualifying for the CL by coming in 4th?

      Cos you couldn't get excited about it a month ago.
      harrydunn08
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      Re: A "plan B" begins to emerge from the fog!
      Reply #29 : May 18, 2017 12:22:18 am »
      Nice thread Mick.  There is merit in a lot of what you say, but I'll play devil's advocate:

      finally, belatedly, we appear to have arrived at a potential solution to bus parkers.... we've gotten there in the end and the future looks a lot brighter.

      Lets look at the alterations and how they panned out:

      1. Playing a proper striker.... Danny Sturridge is a PROPER striker, the only one in our squad arguably, and man did it show?....  And it wasn't a surprise that as a team we looked massively more potent, proper strikers do that.

      What his cameo did yesterday though surely is demonstrate once and for all that a PROPER striker or two in the squad is a must, and having one on the pitch if fit equally a given.     

      Yes, we looked more potent with Studge, a natural #9, starting up top than we have in recent weeks.  But if we think back to the first half of the season, we were regularly blowing teams away -- even bus parkers -- and scoring 4+ goals on numerous occasions.  Was the team performance with Studge as the focal point better than we were seeing back in October/November with Firmino as the #9?  For me, we would need to see more evidence than just 1 game to draw this conclusion. 

      As for Phil in midfield, he's a world class player who is capable of playing several positions to a high standard.  I do recall one game earlier in the season (I just can't remember which game) when Coutinho started in a deeper CM role, and was moved to LW at halftime because he wasn't getting any touches near the opposition's penalty area.  The switch helped free Coutinho of his defensive responsibilities and made us more threatening in attack.  I personally agree with you that Phil is naturally suited to a more central role, but sometimes you have to move players around to get the best out of the unit. 
      « Last Edit: May 18, 2017 01:00:16 am by harrydunn08 »

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