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      Interfaith dialogue

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      YANK_LFC_FAN
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #125: May 29, 2017 01:10:14 am
      Can we all agree that Scientology is the biggest bullshit religion ever created?
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #126: May 29, 2017 01:37:28 am
      Can we all agree that Scientology is the biggest bullshit religion ever created?

      Oh you're going to f**king get it now. Don't say I didn't warn you!

      « Last Edit: May 29, 2017 02:02:40 am by Frankly, Mr Shankly »
      bigvYNWA
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #127: May 29, 2017 02:58:03 am
      Can we all agree that Scientology is the biggest bullshit religion ever created?

      To an extent I definitely agree - but then, to play devils advocate - I feel like it's pretty much just a modern version of any of the predominant religions of this day and age. Give Scientology a few thousand years in closed minded non-internet age as others have, where is it then? For me, Scientology is so easy to pick apart because people (who have somewhat open eyes) can see through the bullshit of something that has only just begun - somewhat like Mormonism. To me, some of the biggest hypocrites are those who align themselves with another religion or whatever, and yet deride something like Scientology. There's no more or less proof for either.

      Now, do I believe Scientology is a particularly ridiculous religion with many aspects that go far beyond those of the more traditional religions? Absolutely. My point simply being that, in my opinion, they're all just 50 shades of bullshit.

      So as most of you will have gathered, I am an atheist. Not an asshole atheist, not militant about it (don't ask me about it after 10 beers though) I just believe what I believe. Or believe nothing and have no purpose, according to some in this thread :D

      I'm gonna respond to a few ideas I've seen posited here - not directly, just my thoughts on it really. I mean no offence to anyone when I say what I say - you may take offence, but just understand one thing: Many atheists see things in religious speak and ideology DAILY that is, in a way, offensive to us. However, being that we understand it's not direct - it's just archaic belief - we go about our purposeless day.

      I saw some posters say something along the lines that if there is no creator, then we serve no purpose. That you can't find a reason to function, in essence, if you don't believe there is some greater good to it. I find this belief flabbergasting, and is something I will absolutely go in to bat for and explain why life is so much more beautiful when you embrace the randomness of the cosmos. For me, I look around and see beauty in everything - and I think it is so f**king cool that it is purely random. It is by the will of the universe that all this random sh*t happens. And, also why so much horrific sh*t happens - hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados etc etc etc. It is much easier to explain than "Why did god tear up this town in Oklahoma and kill innocent children and parents?" - my belief there is, if proof of a god ever does come, then that guy is a f**king c**t of man/woman/flying spaghetti monster.

      The world is beautiful. The stars are beautiful. The endless expanse of the universe, from my chair outside at least, is f**king beautiful. If god is simply an all powerful cloud version of man that is obsessed with what us humans do on earth and is constantly judging, he couldn't have f**king done all that! No cynic who is obsessed with what other people do with their lives ever has that greater expanse of mind, openness, or ability to create the beauty that is the natural world. He woulda planted some flag in his yard and been all, f**k yeah what a house. Cracked a Pabst and called it Sunday. I truly believe that when you open your mind up to the possibility that the world is just a wonderful clusterfuck of random events and chance, it makes your own self more maleable to the world, its movements, its changes. You start seeing more, start experiencing more - you take chances, because that is what the world is. A world full of chance, experience, and random beauty at its very finest.

      To extend this point, I've also seen some suggest - and this is the classic argument - that "ALL OF THIS CAN'T COME FROM NOTHING?!" That by simply being 'here' that this is in itself proof of a creator. Beside the fact this logic would be thrown out of court in a nanosecond, lets delve into it - why is this proof? There wasn't "nothing" before the big bang anyway, it was simply not "this" - just because the universe was not in it's current status, does not mean that there was nothing. In fact, for the "Big Bang" to take place, there still had to be "something" - it's just greater things than many minds have been able to grasp until recent history, and even then the worlds smartest and brightest scientists (all atheists, by the way - thats just straight up fact, not meant to be offensive) are working constantly to better understand the construct of the universe. The fact is, we simply don't know so many things about the universe still. What we do know is, that there is no proof of god, but there is proof of random events leading us to now. BEFORE anyone, by the way, says "simply look around us the proof of the creator is there" - NO, that is not PROOF. That is your belief. Proof is evidence. That is like me walking into a bank and saying "Hi, I'm Steve Jobs can I have my billions thanks" and the dude being like, "Yeah you look like a Steve, that's proof enough for me. Here you go old mate, enjoy the shrooms and creating cool-ass sh*t."

      Furthermore, my belief is, always has been, and always will be - you give me proof of a god, like scientific 100% proof. And I'll be f**king stoked. Because then I can actually call god a c**t to his face for all the sh*t he does. But I will also then believe. As will every scientist and atheist on earth. Atheism isn't hateful of religion, it's the absence of belief in it. We believe in many things - the beauty of life, the beauty of nature, the beauty of the universe. Added to that, is the belief in our own life. It is what we make it. We can experience life in any which way we can. I derive my morals from the fact that we are here on this earth as our own beings, completely controlled by ourselves, and to make every man and woman enjoy life as they deserve to is what each and every one of us should be trying to do. Kinda like that pay it forward sh*t. Treat everyone as you want to be treated. I'm an emotional dude inside. I get incredibly sad when I see a fellow human struggling with life, whether it be financial, family, whatever. We all deserve happiness if it isn't at the expense of someone else - because we can all be happy without affecting anyone else, despite what the nutcases protesting gay marriage will tell you.

      Be good to each other. Whether you're atheist, christian, muslim, jew, gay, black, white, pastafarian - we're all in this together.

      I'd love to see this thread continue, but I fear that some simply can't hide from personal biting so I guess we'll see. An old bartender mate of mine once said to me - "There are two topics that should never be allowed in a bar - religion and politics."
      -LFC-
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #128: May 29, 2017 08:51:26 am
      What we do know is, that there is no proof of god, but there is proof of random events leading us to now. BEFORE anyone, by the way, says "simply look around us the proof of the creator is there" - NO, that is not PROOF. That is your belief. Proof is evidence. That is like me walking into a bank and saying "Hi, I'm Steve Jobs can I have my billions thanks" and the dude being like, "Yeah you look like a Steve, that's proof enough for me. Here you go old mate, enjoy the shrooms and creating cool-ass sh*t."

       :lmao:
      stuey
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #129: May 29, 2017 09:10:16 am
      Adam, Eve, Apple, tree, garden, choice, guilt, admonishment, God.

      One of the above, in spite of being denoted as a capital word, is not an accepted entitie, is a concept, is open to interpretation and therefore not a subject for reasoned dialogue.

      As with the opening jumble of words, the suggestion that there might be a glimmer of credibility to the notion is used to promote some wafer-thin context.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #130: May 29, 2017 12:31:25 pm
      Can we all agree that Scientology is the biggest bullshit religion ever created?

      I'd go with most recent bullshit, the freshest pat but, technically, the same old bullshit.
      clint_call01
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #131: May 29, 2017 02:47:45 pm
      I understand the concept, I was more curious as to how you reconcile the inherent flaws and seeming lack of logic in it, which is something I have never been able to do, which is probably to do with my lack of faith.

      That aside, it's a good explanation for young people, or as good as I've heard anyway. :)

      Thanks mate.

      If we start examining it logically, we will not be satisfied with the explanation. It is a mystery and we based everything on our faith in the the Trinity.
      Swab
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #132: May 29, 2017 03:19:42 pm
      Thanks mate.

      If we start examining it logically, we will not be satisfied with the explanation. It is a mystery and we based everything on our faith in the the Trinity.

      Would you say then Clint, that the logical examination you speak of is the difference between faith and no faith, or at least a contributing factor?
      FL Red
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #133: May 29, 2017 08:01:11 pm
      Thanks mate.

      If we start examining it logically, we will not be satisfied with the explanation. It is a mystery and we based everything on our faith in the the Trinity.

      True, but logic is a construct of the human mind and as such, is just as flawed as any other human construct (philosophy, morality, etc....).

      Someone said it earlier, humankind screws up everything we do. Ultimately, no matter how much faith you or I have, or how little someone else may have, we aren't going to be proven right/wrong until the day you take your last breath. 
      -LFC-
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #134: May 29, 2017 10:30:05 pm
      I find it revealing, not to say hypocritical in the extreme, at how keen the faithful are to dispense with the use of logic when it poses questions about their faith, only to rely on it in every other aspect of their lives that requires any kind of thought.

      The fact of the matter is that it is precisely because people got smart and dispensed with superstition that we now no longer burn people at the stake or take women as chattel in law.

      Religion has been been trying to keep up ever since.
      FL Red
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #135: May 30, 2017 02:40:04 am
      I find it revealing, not to say hypocritical in the extreme, at how keen the faithful are to dispense with the use of logic when it poses questions about their faith, only to rely on it in every other aspect of their lives that requires any kind of thought.

      The fact of the matter is that it is precisely because people got smart and dispensed with superstition that we now no longer burn people at the stake or take women as chattel in law.

      Religion has been been trying to keep up ever since.
      I pose questions of my own faith so I'm not so sure what you are on about.

      "People got smart and dispensed with superstition"

      :lmao:

      Yea, sure we have.

      Religion is a weakness that people without strong faith use to try and prove to themselves that they are "good".
      clint_call01
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #136: May 30, 2017 02:18:59 pm
      Would you say then Clint, that the logical examination you speak of is the difference between faith and no faith, or at least a contributing factor?

      True, but logic is a construct of the human mind and as such, is just as flawed as any other human construct (philosophy, morality, etc....).

      Someone said it earlier, humankind screws up everything we do. Ultimately, no matter how much faith you or I have, or how little someone else may have, we aren't going to be proven right/wrong until the day you take your last breath. 

      There are Scripture evidence in the New testament but I was developed fully from the Tradition of the Church.

      This Tradition, the catholic church, believes a lot in it. They are based on the Fathers of the Church, like St Augustine, St T Aquinas, St Bonaventure, etc and all of them were philosophers/thinkers.
      Shabs
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #137: May 30, 2017 02:20:58 pm
      There are Scripture evidence in the New testament but I was developed fully from the Tradition of the Church.

      This Tradition, the catholic church, believes a lot in it. They are based on the Fathers of the Church, like St Augustine, St T Aquinas, St Bonaventure, etc and all of them were philosophers/thinkers.

      Clint, I have some questions about the trinity I would like to ask but I don't want to offend..
      clint_call01
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #138: May 30, 2017 04:33:32 pm
      Clint, I have some questions about the trinity I would like to ask but I don't want to offend..

      Go ahead mate.
      RC9
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #139: May 30, 2017 04:41:17 pm
      All for people having their religion. I think religion can do real good for certain individuals, for example my Nan is a devout christian and her faith helps her when family or friends can't be there for her and i love that she has that.

      But what i do hate is the belief that everyone must follow a religion and if you don't your somehow lesser of an individual. I was brought up Muslim and slowly have become further and further distant from the religion, with my belief and motivation to practice. Some around me can't fathom it but i am happier being honest with myself and not pretending to be a Muslim when i barely practice, it is not fair on the religion itself.

      People need to accept others differences and appreciate them and what they give to that individual.


      Shabs
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #140: May 30, 2017 04:48:06 pm

      Can man be God?.

      Surely the attributes of God cannot be attributed to man?.

      Jesus (Pbuh) was a man,he was given birth by to our Mother Mary,he suckled,he would rest after being tired,he ate food & drank water to sustain himself,he relied upon his family,he would have had to use a toilet all the things man would do from birth to death are actions that you do not associate with God..

      God is above all what man does..

      Am I making sense?

      Then we have the issue Jesus (Pbuh) being crucified, did God die on the cross? If yes,who was in charge of the affairs in his absence due to death & how dud he reassure t himself after death?.

      clint_call01
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #141: May 30, 2017 05:12:05 pm
      Can man be God?.

      Surely the attributes of God cannot be attributed to man?.

      Jesus (Pbuh) was a man,he was given birth by to our Mother Mary,he suckled,he would rest after being tired,he ate food & drank water to sustain himself,he relied upon his family,he would have had to use a toilet all the things man would do from birth to death are actions that you do not associate with God..

      God is above all what man does..

      Am I making sense?

      Then we have the issue Jesus (Pbuh) being crucified, did God die on the cross? If yes,who was in charge of the affairs in his absence due to death & how dud he reassure t himself after death?.



      These are not offensive questions!

      Yes, we believe that God became Man. We believe that Jesus lived a human life with all its good and bad. He take upon himself human suffering, sin, evil, etc by dieing on the cross. By doing on the cross, God still remain in 'charge' because that is the mystery of the Trinity.

      Being God, Jesus resurrected on the third day. That shows that he is God.
      clint_call01
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #142: May 31, 2017 07:38:13 pm
      FL Red
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #143: May 31, 2017 07:48:32 pm
      These are not offensive questions!

      Yes, we believe that God became Man. We believe that Jesus lived a human life with all its good and bad. He take upon himself human suffering, sin, evil, etc by dieing on the cross. By doing on the cross, God still remain in 'charge' because that is the mystery of the Trinity.

      Being God, Jesus resurrected on the third day. That shows that he is God.

      Also Jesus himself made the claim (in the Bible and several times) that he WAS God. So if you take him for his word, then the other suppositions don't really matter.
      clint_call01
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #144: May 31, 2017 07:51:09 pm
      Also Jesus himself made the claim (in the Bible and several times) that he WAS God. So if you take him for his word, then the other suppositions don't really matter.

      Exactly!
      Shabs
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #145: May 31, 2017 08:35:00 pm
      Also Jesus himself made the claim (in the Bible and several times) that he WAS God. So if you take him for his word, then the other suppositions don't really matter.

      Which part of the bible mate?
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #146: May 31, 2017 09:17:45 pm
      I think if you look in the book of John there is reference to him answering a question saying "I am"..and later on saying he was "One with the Father"; but no he never uttered the words of "I am God"
      FL Red
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #147: May 31, 2017 09:18:49 pm

      John 10:30
      John 8:58

      Those are two with the more direct language from Jesus himself. There are plenty of other verses where he is referred to as God or where the Jews response to him and his preaching showed that they believed him to be making blasphemous statements. I mean the gospels are all very clear that the reason the Jews wanted Jesus crucified was because they believed him to be claiming to be God in man form.
      Shabs
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #148: May 31, 2017 09:34:47 pm
      I think if you look in the book of John there is reference to him answering a question saying "I am"..and later on saying he was "One with the Father"; but no he never uttered the words of "I am God"

      He never claim to be God? People claimed he was the son & Gid himself..

      The Jews went after him because he was the messiah.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Interfaith dialogue
      Reply #149: May 31, 2017 09:46:46 pm
      He never said the words "I am God"....he alluded to it when answering questions, he did not deny it when pressed by the Jew's, He made statements such as I am who I am...when asked if he was or "I am one with the Father"  and again " Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

      I think the Jews went after him not because they thought he was the messiah but rather a heretic claiming to be so.

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