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      Q. LFC Man of the Match v Watford?

      Simon Mignolet
      4 (4%)
      Trent Alexander-Arnold
      21 (20.8%)
      Dejan Lovren
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      Joel Matip
      0 (0%)
      Alberto Moreno
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      Jordan Henderson
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      Georginio Wijnaldum
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      Mohammed Salah
      24 (23.8%)
      Sadio Mane
      26 (25.7%)
      Roberto Firmino
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      James Milner
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      Total Members Voted: 100

      Voting closed: Aug 16, 2017 02:31:55 pm

      Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      GERNS
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #870 : Aug 13, 2017 09:01:12 am »
      Also, if we keep performing like this, with little or no squad quality to afford meaningful changes, the likes of Lallana, Firmino and Mane will be off at the first offer, never mind Coutinho ! 
      We'll be left with the remains which is really only midfield quality.
      billythered
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #871 : Aug 13, 2017 09:08:49 am »
      Well, that was worryingly sh*t.

      Our defence is embarrassingly poor. Carragher nailed it on the head when he asked what have we been working on in pre season? It's the same old sh*te. The way we defend set pieces or balls into the box in general is just comical.

      He didn't do too badly today in all honesty but Moreno isn't good enough, neither is lovren, neither is Mignolet. These three need f**king off asap otherwise we will continue to concede soft goals and drop points.

      We had major problems in midfield today by playing three number 6's.  Can, Henderson and wijnaldum are all too similar. It was too noticeable that we were missing both coutinho and lallana who act as our number 8 and 10. Yes, they are both big players for us and if you take out two players from any other team then they will struggle too, but it is just further evidence of how thin our squad is. We have no depth.

      I thought henderson had a shocking game today, he still looks injured to me. Wijnaldum was a passenger yet again away from home. The two of them were dreadful and can wasn't much better (if he actually was any better).

      I think it's a bit of a myth that we were good going forward today too. The first half was really hard to watch and apart from manes genius for the goal, I thought we were toothless, out of ideas, and just generally dreadful in our play.

      The second half we did improve slightly and looked better, scored two goals in quick succession but a lot of that was down to the shitness of Watford. Just like their goals came down the shitness of us! We weren't electric or anything of the sort going forward today, we were poor all over the park and if we play like that against hoffenheim then we're getting knocked out.

      For the time being Jürgen has to play firmino in the 10 role to give us some flair and some movement in the middle. He simply cannot persist with the three that played today. Take either hendo or wijnaldum out and put solanke in.

      If today wasn't enough to give Klopp and the club a reality check then I don't know what else will. We need 5-6 new players here and f**king urgently. Presuming our business is done for this window then I seriously worry for us.







      Been shouting out similar mate, Keeper not good enough, defending average at best, not good enough, central mids, not good enough, no support to our frontline,

      You could argue that the Coutinho sh*t has fu**ed up the dressing room but that's a pretty lame excuse for a professional outfit,

      Like you said we are once again woefully short in quality and short in numbers, we cannot expect to have any success with virtually the same group from last season, but yet it looks like we will be,

      Jürgen is a intelligent bloke as is Buvac, surely they can recognise that we need further additions or are they blinded by their own singlemindedness or should that stubbornness?

      We all know we need a leading commanding CB, that's a given, our midfield just simply isn't good enough even if Phill stays, it still needs two perhaps 3 better than we have now players who will take us up a level,

      I'm sorry but Hendo,can & Gini are at their level and will NOT  get much better, that is simply not good enough if we are going to compete not only domestically but also in Europe,

      Mignolet, again won't improve he's had plenty of time to prove us all wrong yet he still flounders has no out ball and has the breaking strain of a f**king mars bar,

      Lovren back up CB at best, similar to Klavan neither will improve us, Moreno although flattering to deceive will never be good enough, TAA  has potential impressed yesterday superb delivery and will improve a shining light in our back 4,

      We need 5-6 new quality additions imo, and we need them in asap, ok 'A' plan targets may escaped this time but surely a 'B' plan is better than NO plan at all ?

      We ain't winning sh*t this season unless we get new faces in, why Klopp, Buvac, et al can't see that is beyond me.

      YNWA
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      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #872 : Aug 13, 2017 09:10:15 am »
      We have to sort this defence  for once, we could have won the league  by now is   just  we keep on giving precious  points away.We don't  have  a leader in defence  and this a problem  when it comes to defending  set pieces,  our defence  have no confidence  no  communication at the back  at all and no one to lead the defence .Can  we PLEASE  get at least one  captain  material  CB.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #873 : Aug 13, 2017 09:58:03 am »
      The level of defending in the Premier League is utterly atrocious at the moment, and we're the poster boys for it.

      If only we hadn't messed up on signing our primary CB target and brought in someone to actually start at LB, instead of a bench warmer for Alberto f**king Moreno!
      Ebieahi
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #874 : Aug 13, 2017 10:34:35 am »
      I was hopeful that we would see an improvement by our defence...instead i witnessed another shambolic performance by the 8 players behind our forward line.
      It is clear for all to see that our attack, even with reserves like Solanke, Sturridge or Origi, will be good enough 90% of the time and all have goals in them...however the midfield and defence is simply not good enough.

      JK will need to sign a world class CB and CM in order to have any chance of challenging and if Coutinho goes this season, we will need a world class playmaker as well.

      When last have you had the feeling that we can hold onto a lead? I just knew the equaliser was inevitable. Poor poor poor.
      Muzzman1969
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #875 : Aug 13, 2017 10:37:15 am »
      That just shows our best and worse.  Going forward we can be as good as anyone, but the defence will not see us challenging unless drastic changes are made.

      Only first game though, so let's look forward to Hoffenheim, one of the most important games for a few years.
      bazspeedman
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #876 : Aug 13, 2017 11:01:31 am »
      That just shows our best and worse.  Going forward we can be as good as anyone, but the defence will not see us challenging unless drastic changes are made.

      Only first game though, so let's look forward to Hoffenheim, one of the most important games for a few years.

      Challenging for what mate the league cup?

      We need 3 more quality players before the window shuts to challenge for anything else.

      Pity the transfer window is only 18 days long.

      Oh wait.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #877 : Aug 13, 2017 11:52:55 am »
      Why would we sell Cou for less next season?

      If anything his value will rise even more.

      What's the point in having  £100 million to panic buy with?

      Have you not seen now this worked out for us in past seasons?
      Baz' It is debatable whether or not his value would rise, May become better, in which case yes, But less time on his contract usually means he goes for less...That a side, no one is suggesting "panic" buying, said else where, we get VVD, and wait till next season to try and sign Keita and other targets, use the players we have,yes and that includes Sakho...

      In the past we have panicked bought and as you pointed out it did not work out well 
      bmck
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #878 : Aug 13, 2017 11:53:37 am »
      If today wasn't enough to give Klopp and the club a reality check then I don't know what else will. We need 5-6 new players here and f**king urgently.


      Frustrating thing is that yesterday was nothing new, we've seen it all before. Many times. So to expect things to be different, without making meaningful changes, seems close to the height of stupidity. If we've waited till near the end of the VERY much hyped summer window for a 'reality check', kinda leaves you pulling your hair out.
      bmck
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #879 : Aug 13, 2017 12:00:09 pm »
      Mignolet, again won't improve he's had plenty of time to prove us all wrong yet he still flounders has no out ball and has the breaking strain of a f**king mars bar,


      Think that last goal would've gone across the goal had Migs not knocked it towards goal/up against the bar. Got himself into a bad position, should have muscled that guy off him. Kicking balls directly into touch, I recall one woeful throwout that had Emre roaring at him, etc etc.

      The fact that Mignolet has started this season as (apparently) our number 1, when he shouldn't really been replaced last season, says a lot about that is wrong right now.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #880 : Aug 13, 2017 01:59:20 pm »
      He has covered as a CB in the past, which says about Lovren me saying that I would rather have him as a CB than Lovren who is a CB by trade
      lreland
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #881 : Aug 13, 2017 02:22:15 pm »
      Jordon captain Liverpool club says all really he so poor in midfield grujic should be playing he play well in per season our midfield a joke
      Fourbrick
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #882 : Aug 13, 2017 02:30:25 pm »
      If you watch the replay carefully enough the player pulled the ball backwards when he crossed for Watford's third goal, it was Mignolet's hand that moved the ball forward so can't be offside

      The guy was in an offside position when the ball was crossed. Whether it hit Mignolet's hand or not, or whether the ball was pulled back, he was offside.
      clint_call01
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #883 : Aug 13, 2017 04:57:03 pm »
      Eddieo
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #884 : Aug 13, 2017 05:27:18 pm »
      Imagine how many goals our forwards would score against our defence

      Someone else said that to me
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #885 : Aug 13, 2017 06:07:45 pm »
      I don't know much about defensive coaching, or what defensive coaching goes on at LFC, or who is responsible for it, or what the hell zonal marking is.

      But as a fan who used to play a bit I can seen five things very clearly:

      1)   Our players (and I don't just mean the defenders) seem to know WHERE to be at corners.  Its as if someone has said, "Right Bobby, (or whoever) you stand HERE. Now Dejan, you stand HERE."  And left it at that.
      2)   They don't attack the ball, but watch it and remain largely stationary.  The ball goes in.  Then they turn and look around to see who the hell should have been doing the things that NONE of them did.
      3)   They don't anticipate the moves of opponents attacking the ball (much less beat them to it). 
      4)   We only defend the corner well when it is delivered exactly to one of our players and he clears or controls it. 
      5)   There are too many of our lads in a small space in front of goal, and they either impede each other, hit clearances AT each other, or leave it to each other.

      My solution (and feel free to shoot me down if you know more about it than me, this is after all just my interpretation of what I'm watching time and time again, since time - or the EPL - began) is this:

      Have a mix of zonal marking and man-to-man marking.  Identify the danger men and mark them closely using the most appropriate defending player (big lad on big lad is an obvious one).   Have other players mark zonally but emphasise that they must ATTACK the ball and win it.  Communication is clearly vital, so players don't go for the same ball.
      (Old fashioned this, but I think it works more often than not) Put two guys on the goal line at corners, defending the corners of the net.  They stay there until the ball is cleared or they have an opportunity to win it or clear it.
      Aside from the keeper and two lads on the goal line, there are no more than 5 or 6 LFC players in the box.  2 or 3 are free outside the box and up to halfway, to capitalise on a quick break or clearance. 

      Finally.  Have a goalkeeper (or at least a CB) who ALWAYS is the undisputed king of his area (Mignolet exudes this quality only on occasions, and the result is hesitancy in the minds of the defenders), and who the defenders KNOW will bollock the living daylights out of them should they mess up their jobs at corners.

      If all that's in place and the opponents score, fair play to them.  At least we're not tearing what's left of our grey hair out watching comedy Bertie and the Chuckle brothers falling over each other while a big centre forward taps it in.

      Am I talking sh*te?
      « Last Edit: Aug 13, 2017 06:12:10 pm by TheleftpegofRayKennedy »
      heimdall
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #886 : Aug 13, 2017 07:00:31 pm »
      I don't know much about defensive coaching, or what defensive coaching goes on at LFC, or who is responsible for it, or what the hell zonal marking is.

      But as a fan who used to play a bit I can seen five things very clearly:

      1)   Our players (and I don't just mean the defenders) seem to know WHERE to be at corners.  Its as if someone has said, "Right Bobby, (or whoever) you stand HERE. Now Dejan, you stand HERE."  And left it at that.
      2)   They don't attack the ball, but watch it and remain largely stationary.  The ball goes in.  Then they turn and look around to see who the hell should have been doing the things that NONE of them did.
      3)   They don't anticipate the moves of opponents attacking the ball (much less beat them to it). 
      4)   We only defend the corner well when it is delivered exactly to one of our players and he clears or controls it. 
      5)   There are too many of our lads in a small space in front of goal, and they either impede each other, hit clearances AT each other, or leave it to each other.

      My solution (and feel free to shoot me down if you know more about it than me, this is after all just my interpretation of what I'm watching time and time again, since time - or the EPL - began) is this:

      Have a mix of zonal marking and man-to-man marking.  Identify the danger men and mark them closely using the most appropriate defending player (big lad on big lad is an obvious one).   Have other players mark zonally but emphasise that they must ATTACK the ball and win it.  Communication is clearly vital, so players don't go for the same ball.
      (Old fashioned this, but I think it works more often than not) Put two guys on the goal line at corners, defending the corners of the net.  They stay there until the ball is cleared or they have an opportunity to win it or clear it.
      Aside from the keeper and two lads on the goal line, there are no more than 5 or 6 LFC players in the box.  2 or 3 are free outside the box and up to halfway, to capitalise on a quick break or clearance. 

      Finally.  Have a goalkeeper (or at least a CB) who ALWAYS is the undisputed king of his area (Mignolet exudes this quality only on occasions, and the result is hesitancy in the minds of the defenders), and who the defenders KNOW will bollock the living daylights out of them should they mess up their jobs at corners.

      If all that's in place and the opponents score, fair play to them.  At least we're not tearing what's left of our grey hair out watching comedy Bertie and the Chuckle brothers falling over each other while a big centre forward taps it in.

      Am I talking sh*te?


      Nope I'd go along with that , we seem to employ zonal marking but without the players owning their zones and attacking the ball. If the players can't do zonal marking, and they very bloody obviously can't, then stop trying to do it and go back to old fashioned man marking which is much easier to control as you set your best defenders on their best attackers.
      Zonal marking is probably the better system BUT only if done correctly and it takes a hell of a lot of discipline and organisation and we don't seem to have to personnel or coaching to do this so wake the f**k up Klopp and change the system back to man-marking so that each opposition corner isn't a 50-50 chance of them scoring!
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #887 : Aug 13, 2017 07:30:23 pm »
      I don't know much about defensive coaching, or what defensive coaching goes on at LFC, or who is responsible for it, or what the hell zonal marking is.

      But as a fan who used to play a bit I can seen five things very clearly:

      1)   Our players (and I don't just mean the defenders) seem to know WHERE to be at corners.  Its as if someone has said, "Right Bobby, (or whoever) you stand HERE. Now Dejan, you stand HERE."  And left it at that.
      2)   They don't attack the ball, but watch it and remain largely stationary.  The ball goes in.  Then they turn and look around to see who the hell should have been doing the things that NONE of them did.
      3)   They don't anticipate the moves of opponents attacking the ball (much less beat them to it). 
      4)   We only defend the corner well when it is delivered exactly to one of our players and he clears or controls it. 
      5)   There are too many of our lads in a small space in front of goal, and they either impede each other, hit clearances AT each other, or leave it to each other.

      My solution (and feel free to shoot me down if you know more about it than me, this is after all just my interpretation of what I'm watching time and time again, since time - or the EPL - began) is this:

      Have a mix of zonal marking and man-to-man marking.  Identify the danger men and mark them closely using the most appropriate defending player (big lad on big lad is an obvious one).   Have other players mark zonally but emphasise that they must ATTACK the ball and win it.  Communication is clearly vital, so players don't go for the same ball.
      (Old fashioned this, but I think it works more often than not) Put two guys on the goal line at corners, defending the corners of the net.  They stay there until the ball is cleared or they have an opportunity to win it or clear it.
      Aside from the keeper and two lads on the goal line, there are no more than 5 or 6 LFC players in the box.  2 or 3 are free outside the box and up to halfway, to capitalise on a quick break or clearance. 

      Finally.  Have a goalkeeper (or at least a CB) who ALWAYS is the undisputed king of his area (Mignolet exudes this quality only on occasions, and the result is hesitancy in the minds of the defenders), and who the defenders KNOW will bollock the living daylights out of them should they mess up their jobs at corners.

      If all that's in place and the opponents score, fair play to them.  At least we're not tearing what's left of our grey hair out watching comedy Bertie and the Chuckle brothers falling over each other while a big centre forward taps it in.

      Am I talking sh*te?

      The system is only part of the problem, there's a lack of concentration too. Look at first goal we conceded yesterday and notice how Matip failed to even attempt to clear the ball. Instead of attempting to head it away he actually ducked beneath it. No system in the world is going to work if your players do the opposite of what they're meant to. It's also not a new thing, and defensive frailities from set peices go as far back as Rafa's time at the helm, with the media slamming his zonal marking. This narraitve has got to a point that it's become a self fullfilling prophecy within the player's heads. They think they will concede from a set peice so invariably we do. The cycle can only be broken by having someone in there with greater mental strength, one who won't let this get into his head and can and will organise the defence appropriately.

      Then there's the goalkeeping situtation, specifically Mignolet and his propensity for punching the ball away when he should be catching it. Punching the ball away makes the defence nervous because they have no idea where the ball is going to end up. They should be able to rely on their keeper coming and collecting the ball comfortably, something he's never been very good at even before his time with us. Until these two issues are fixed we'll continue to leak like a rusty old bucket and so long as we do, we'll never be successful at winning things.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #888 : Aug 13, 2017 07:45:33 pm »
      The system is only part of the problem, there's a lack of concentration too. Look at first goal we conceded yesterday and notice how Matip failed to even attempt to clear the ball. Instead of attempting to head it away he actually ducked beneath it. No system in the world is going to work if your players do the opposite of what they're meant to. It's also not a new thing, and defensive frailities from set peices go as far back as Rafa's time at the helm, with the media slamming his zonal marking. This narraitve has got to a point that it's become a self fullfilling prophecy within the player's heads. They think they will concede from a set peice so invariably we do. The cycle can only be broken by having someone in there with greater mental strength, one who won't let this get into his head and can and will organise the defence appropriately.

      Then there's the goalkeeping situtation, specifically Mignolet and his propensity for punching the ball away when he should be catching it. Punching the ball away makes the defence nervous because they have no idea where the ball is going to end up. They should be able to rely on their keeper coming and collecting the ball comfortably, something he's never been very good at even before his time with us. Until these two issues are fixed we'll continue to leak like a rusty old bucket and so long as we do, we'll never be successful at winning things.

      I completely agree.  But I think its collective mentality. 
      We do need one man to be the leader, the yeller, the bollocker.  The others all look like lads who are waiting for somebody to tell them what to do.  We haven't had a defensive leader in that mould since Carra, have we?
      jabv
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #889 : Aug 13, 2017 07:47:24 pm »
      I wonder if anyone still thinks Lovren is a better CB than Sakho. I honestly can't stand watching him play. He's so average it hurts.

      Not that he was solely at fault for anything, the whole defensive performance was pretty sad TBH.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #890 : Aug 13, 2017 07:56:18 pm »
      I wonder if anyone still thinks Lovren is a better CB than Sakho. I honestly can't stand watching him play. He's so average it hurts.

      Not that he was solely at fault for anything, the whole defensive performance was pretty sad TBH.

      I found both of them hard to watch at times, always looking prone to a mistake or a misunderstanding.  But Sakho I liked, because he'd always put himself in harms way to prevent a goal, no matter what. 

      I don't think our lads communicate well at the back - I don't really pick up much talking between them - and that's where it starts  because they have to operate as a unit, don't they?  Not a set of individuals. 
      Breeding-Reds-In-The-434
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #891 : Aug 13, 2017 08:13:20 pm »
      We need a nasty son of a bi*ch to come in here to play CB. I like Matip, but he plays soft. Lovern pretends to be hard with that mean muggin, but he gets pushed around to often aswell. We need a Carragher type fella who comes in doing dirty crap and playing the CB hard and physical. I don't think anyone respects our defense, especially when teams cross the ball into the box. We need to get in a guy who demands that respect the way Jamie did. I know technically a lot needs to change systematically, but we still need that dirty rotten b***ard type player to man the defense and garner teams respect with his tenacious and physical play.
      Norfolk Red
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #892 : Aug 13, 2017 08:48:55 pm »
      Well I'm stating the obvious here, but how come the fans can see the problems, but the club can't, ffs buy someone who can defend. Surely its not rocket science.  :mad:
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #893 : Aug 13, 2017 09:35:41 pm »
      And they're off...

      Same old Liverpool, and I don't mean same old from last season but same old since the turn of this decade really. For years upon years now we've shot ourselves in the foot with the same mistakes. We've been linked with anybody with a heartbeat but never materialised in signing a number of players with real quality. Rather one, potentially, decent signing and a couple of players who will only be squad players at best. Think about it honestly, what was the last summer that excited you in terms of our transfers - regardless of how they eventually turned out.

      I'll be honest I was excited by the signing at Lovren, I thought he looked a quality centre half at Southampton and for us to get him gave me optimism going into that year. The other signings that year, not so much so. And that's been one of the problems for so long. We don't have signings who grip our imagination, just a lorry load of "solid hands" or "potential".

      Another constant problem we've had for a number of years is defending. This is not exclusive to the Klopp era, nor is it exclusive to the current set of defenders. It's a long installed problem at the club that, I imagine, each and every manager/coach we've had since the days of Hyypia/Carragher at the heart of our defence has tried addressing. And every manager with his coaching staff has failed to sort it out for whatever reason.

      I used to be totally anti-zonal marking, even going back to Rafa's early days with Sami and Carra back there. I hated it. I'm old fashioned, your best header of the ball picks up their best header and everybody knows who to blame when we concede. Then Sami Hyypia scored an absolute belter of a header against Arsenal in the European Cup from one of our corners. And they used man-marking at the time. And I decided that regardless of the system you implement, if the delivery is good, the movement is good and the connection on the ball is good then you stand a fair old chance of conceding from a set piece.

      So for me it's not a case of we need to change the system. Klopp is an advocate of zonal marking, so we're gonna stick with it. Sound. That's fine and dandy, as long as we've got the players suited to that system. We don't. But as I said earlier, it's not a new problem. I was never overly confident with opposition set pieces when we had Skrtel, Agger, Toure, Sakho, Klavan, Lucas, Ilori, Coates, Gomez or any other of our most recent centre halves at the back. It's a problem we've had for years.

      And one of the main contributing factors to that problem is commanding centre halves don't exist any more. The old guard of player who'd throw their head on anything has gone in favour of somebody who can play nice passes out from the back. Matip being a prime example. The fella is, what, six two? Six three? Maybe taller. And he looks like a strong wind would knock him over. But he's alright with the ball at his feet. And that's what most people say when they explain why he should be in the team. It's one reason why Danny Agger was so adored as well. Now I'm not knocking that reason at all, or even that type of player, but while that sort of player is your main centre half, you're going to struggle defending when the ball is in the air. And we have, for years. Benteke bullied our defenders, Carlton f**king Cole ran us ragged one game for West Ham. Because we don't have that type of defender any more who is up for the physical fight and aerial battles because they don't exist. The game has moved on from that sort of player. And if you look throughout the opening weekend, so many teams have struggled with set pieces.

      Players don't wanna go and really compete for headers any more in case it messes their hair up. Even long punts up the field now from a goal kick, there's no defender throwing everything he's got to knock it back where it came from. It's all nice and gentle little jumps to tap it five yards.

      Which brings me round to another long standing problem, our scouts. We moan religiously about the owners, not spending enough or over spending on others or doing this that and the other wrong. But what the f**k are our scouts doing? It's another part of the game that's moved on, you don't see managers/scouts on scouting missions at the game any more. In today's world, everybody in football knows of anybody with an ounce of talent before they've hit puberty. But are our scouts feeding Klopp with information that Van Dijk is the only centre half in the world we can get? Surely it's their job to say, there's a lad playing in Romania who has a bit about him or that kid from Dundalk looks a prospect or have you seen Smith and Jones down at Bury? Everybody might know about these players because in the modern world, that's how it works, but surely a scout is there to find them before they actually become the interest of the globe.

      But maybe the scouts are giving Klopp this information and he's choosing to ignore it or the owners are choosing to ignore him when he says it to them. If it's Klopp refusing to listen then that again is another problem we've had for many years, once again something not exclusive to Klopp. But the stubbornness of our managers. Stubbornness in their persistence to stick with players who aren't good enough rather than trusting a young kid. People like to talk about how Klopp gives the young lads a go, he gives them a run out in games he basically doesn't give a toss about - or that's how I've seen it during his time here. Arnie is only starting at the minute because Clyne is injured. Woodburn and Kent have both been refused loan deals yet are being kept off the bench by Divock Origi who has proven to not be up to the required standard. Solanke was only on the bench because of Sturridge's latest injury. Danny Ward is told he's in the mix for the number one shirt but can't even make the bench on our opening game despite Mignolet and Karius showing that they're not good enough. Now young kids will make mistakes but f**k me so are the seasoned professionals. And they're making mistakes that I wouldn't expect a school kid to make let alone a full international. At least a young kid might show some f**king desire and heart, something else we've lacked for many a year. As a collective we don't fight. We might have the odd individual who shows some passion and looks like he cares but on the whole, nowhere near enough. And a kid is only going to get better by playing alongside the better players as opposed to the squad players who get thrown into the League Cup ties?

      So the problems we experienced against Watford are issues we've had to deal with for years. It's nothing new really and it shouldn't come as a surprise when we experience the same issues throughout this season. We've changed personnel on and off the field in that time frame and still had the same sort of problems.

      But on to the game itself;

      Mignolet - will cop his usual amount of blame due to people just having it in for the lad. He could be man of the match and he'd still cop the blame for that throw in we conceded in the 73rd minute just outside their box. But against Watford, I thought he was average. Made a couple of saves, mainly routine ones in all honesty. Had his usual flap, the one where he told Lovren to leave it springs right to mind. And the goals, I don't blame him for any of them really. It's defensive errors more than goalkeeping errors that cost us.

      Alexander-Arnold - had a solid game for his first start in a Premier League game at Anfield and only his third in total. (But of course I'm going to say that aren't I? He's Scouse). He was part of the problem that led to their second because it was a poor clearance. Even if it didn't hit Matip, it was still going right back across goal. Should of just put it out. But at least he did get in front of his man, unlike any other defender during that move and most of Watford's attacks came down the left. I thought overall it was a solid start, some f**king brilliant deliveries as well on the other side of the game.

      Matip - I don't recall him doing anything that sh*t other than a few sloppy passes. But I don't recall anything great either. I think he's sort of in the category of us thinking he's a lot better than he is because a) he was a free and b) he's a good footballing centre half. His game, along with the entire back four, needs to improve massively.

      Lovren - as I stated very early into this post, when we signed him I was made up. But he has gone dramatically down hill with the odd run of form here and there to think he's finally turned the corner. Only to revert back to old ways and show he hasn't. The performance against Watford demonstrated that with him as our first choice centre half, we're gonna struggle. On the plus side, what a ball to Firmino that led to our third.

      Moreno - impressed during pre-season so maybe he warranted the starting birth against Watford. And while he didn't perform anywhere near as badly as we know he can, he still didn't convince me that he should be playing for Liverpool Football Club on a regular basis. You know there's a mistake there just waiting to happen. Unfortunately that's something you can label all our defenders with.

      Henderson - always said I liked the lad. Never shied away from that, there's something there. But that something isn't there when he's expected to be the creative midfielder. He can move the ball around the park no problem and ensure we keep possession but too often he'll take the shithouse option rather than put his foot on the ball, look up and try a much much riskier pass with higher reward. It's why he was excellent in 13/14 because he had Gerrard beside him to do the creative work, it's why he looks so below par beside Can and/or Wijnaldum.

      Can - I've often been critical of the German and while he was, clearly, the best of the three central midfielders against Watford, that f**king back heel that gave them the throw for the second goal is unforgivable. Just f**king clear your lines Emre. Leave the fancy dan sh*t for those who can do it or in an area that isn't so dangerous. But that seems to be the mindset of so many of our players, we must do a flick here or a bit of skill there for no reason other than to show off. Just do the simple things. That aside, I thought Can did a good solid job. That run where he carried the ball forty or fifty yards and won us a free kick for example, exactly what was required at the time. Kept it simple and drew a foul.

      Wijnaldum - again he's a player I like. Does a lot of the donkey work in the middle of the park. Unfortunately though so do Henderson and Can. Having three in the middle who all do much of the same doesn't get you very far. We needed somebody to be the creative spark and none of the three did, which left our attacking play very average for most of the game. And of course Gini will take the blame for failing to clear a routine corner. Again, just do the basic things right. It was at a height where he couldn't of taken a touch and launched it up the field. But instead he's trying a little nice soft header, as I said earlier players nowadays don't want to go and attack the ball.

      Mane - wonderful goal and some nice touches here and there. Nasty foul from him as well, which isn't nice to see but maybe what we need is a few more players with a bit of bite to them. His goal aside, wasn't anywhere near his best. But I really put that down to a lack of creativity from the midfield failing to find him and his attacking comrades on a regular basis.

      Salah - winning a pen and scoring a goal on his debut, not too bad really. Few poor efforts on goal in positions he really should of done better but given how poor we were creatively, to find himself in those positions in the first place is a plus. And if he keeps finding himself in those areas, he's going to get a few goals this year. Grew into the game as he was quiet initially but looked a lot better by the time he came off.

      Firmino - scored a pen and got an assist, so he'll get his man of the match votes from the usual suspects. Like the other two in the front three, he was below par due to the lack of creativity behind him. There were flashes of his ability but it was the exception as opposed to the rule. And for their first, again he didn't want to attack the ball. He makes a move towards it then stops stock still as the Watford forward bangs it in. Too quiet for too long but when he made a noise it resulted in goals, which is really what a forward is there to do.

      Origi - did he actually touch the ball? (genuine question because I can't remember seeing it)

      Milner - I'm guessing the idea of bringing him on was to use his experience to see the game through. That worked well didn't it? I've never been a James Milner fan, he's certainly not somebody I believe to be good enough for this club and I don't get excited when I see him coming on. He's another central midfield in the same mould as the three who started, all donkey work players so I don't see the point in him coming into the midfield.

      Gomez - poor f**ker doesn't have a position does he? He wants to be a centre half but is being operated on either side of the back four whenever he gets a chance. I'd throw him in for the Palace game in place of either Lovren or Matip. Probably looked the most assured centre half of any during pre-season.

      Overall, it's a bad result and an even harder one to accept. Throughout the build up, Watford's biggest problem was their inability to score. Their first choice forward is in the stands, injured and their record transfer fee forward is sat on the bench. Yet they still manage to put three past us. What's that say about our defence? Going forward we looked a shadow of what we did at times last year, yet still scored three so what does that say about our attack? And the midfield needs a huge f**king revamp if we're to ever sort out our problems at either end of the pitch.

      But it's one game into the season and far too early to go slitting our wrists. There's going to be dozens and dozens of shock results this season, a few have already happened. We might return to this game later on in the season and say it was the game that finally made the penny drop and Klopp changed something drastically because of this one game. Maybe we needed this result to give us the kick up the arse we need.

      Thirty-seven games to before we're crowned champions!!!
      AussieRed
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      • You'll Never Walk Alone
      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #894 : Aug 13, 2017 11:24:10 pm »
      Same sh*t, different Season.

      F**k!
      Breeding-Reds-In-The-434
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #895 : Aug 14, 2017 12:05:13 am »
      Yesterday was my first trip watching a game in a pub. I live in Appomattox, VA and 4 of us made the two hour hike to Richmond to watch it in a football bar. Needless to say the morning started before 5 AM. :o I was eating steak and eggs and washing it down with a cold stout when we the game started and all in all it was a neat experience. However, one of my buddies failed to mention that the other soccer pub in town was a LFC bar. Maybe it was because he's an Everton fan (which BTW there are a lot of them in this area. Must be because of Timmy Howard. Anyways, though we lost (or it felt like it to me anyways) I found my pleasures for the rest of the morning at the expense of the Chelsea fans that were in the bar. A few of them took it real hard :f_wah:

      Not that it matters, but my ratings for the game were:

      Migs: 6. The goals were on the defense and not him. But the yellow for wasting time and some of his kicks were sh*t. He also screwed us rolling the ball out when no one was around and led to a counter attack for them.

      Matip: 5. He played real weak yesterday. He ducked out of the way on the first corner and just seemed to never mark anyone on any of the corners. His passing was sloppy as well.

      Lovern: 5. Same old Lovern same bad tune

      TAA: 8. Outside the one clearance on the 2nd goal I pretty much loved him. I think we may have found our new corner taker boys. We almost scored on 2 yesterday manly because of how sweet the balls came in. We only scored on 3 all of last year, so ALMOST is saying something.

      Moreno: 6. He really screwed up on the 2nd goal over playing that ball. His attack looked good, but that's nothing new. It's his D that scares me. All of their attacks, corners, etc. came to his side. They tried to pick on him all day. He did play better in the second. Though I am ready for Andy Rob we will prolly get Mily on Tuesday.  :roll:

      Can: 6-7. I like what he does mostly. The free kick he got for us was nicely done. He disrupted their rhythm enough by just being him (running into people and contesting their passes) without getting a yellow. His pass to Mane was pretty. However, he is so damn slow, and its hard to get anything going with him moving forward.

      Hendo: 6. He looked bad. Side to side passes are that guys specialty. If Phil were playing his weaknesses wouldn't be looked at so closely, but alas that isn't the case. His failure to track the runner set up the second goal, and he knows better. People are killing the lack of creativity for this MF, but what did you expect. With Adam and Phil out you knew that would happen. I put most of that on Klopp and FSG.

      Gini: 4. There are no words......

      Mane: 7-8. Goal was nice, and that dummy to to set up the pass for the goal was even nicer. Maybe a little to much ISO for me, but that's sort of what great players do.

      Salah: 7. Missed a lot of chances and probably didn't have a great game performance wise. And yet he still got a penalty chance for us and a goal. Even on his bad games he can give us a lot. I love this dude. He will score 15 + goals on cheap clean up plays this season.

      Bobbi: 7. Bad first half. Sloppy with the ball IMO. However, his PK was a 10 out 10, unblock-able. His assist was probably a shot, but it still gives Salah a chance. Maybe move him back Tuesday? 

      Klopp: 5. We love the attack, but set piece D is sh*t and his substitutes were mind boggling. Bringing in a guy for 5 minutes sets him up to fail, IMO. And why Origi over Solanke?
      « Last Edit: Aug 14, 2017 02:48:37 am by Breeding-Reds-In-The-434 »
      iBleedRed82
      • Forum Youth Player

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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #896 : Aug 14, 2017 03:41:17 am »
      Just gonna throw this out there:

      The Scum have bought the trophy. Lukakau and Matic are a match made in heaven. Add the rest of the squad and they are the team to beat

      I'm a LFC supporter through and through but this season is only about who's spent the most to buy the trophy
      althebest1
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #897 : Aug 14, 2017 06:59:15 am »
      For what it's worth I will throw my opinion in. I don't think any defence in the league could have stopped that first goal, you get 3 players running in who are 6'5" it's always gonna be difficult and they will score more goals like this against anyone. The only thing I would say is I thought Migs should have come out and punched his head off. The 2nd goal was just unlucky with the ball playing ping pong off our defenders. The 3rd goal Gini only had to head it out and he bolloxed up. Credit to Watford that they pressed really well, looked hungry, were organised and had bits of luck for the last 2 goals. For our own part we didn't/couldn't get going in part to the organisation of Watford, but we did score 3 goals so I am not going to start crying just yet, yes it's easy to sit back and blame the same old players and set pieces etc and create scapegoats, but come on it's the first match in the most competitive league in the world, let's get back to backing the team and the gaffer and stop f*cking moaning like bitches as if we are entitled to win. Just my thoughts nothing more.
      redkop63
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      • 5,880 posts | 264 
      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #898 : Aug 14, 2017 07:22:12 am »
      I was just wondering does the players even feel guilty at all, time and again concede last 5 minutes goal and we fans become the laughing stock???

      Perhaps to the lads, no worries Klopp would just make some noise after the match. We put on our mickey mouse like stereo headphones and bear with it for a while. Klopp would soon forgotten and we gets selected in the next game. Make sure we impress Klopp in training.

      I'm amazed Klopp could endure these mistakes time and again and not punished any of the players. Shankly and Sir Bob would have shot these players alive or offload them.

      I only have one message for Klopp, stop the fatherly figure you are over stretching things. Players are taking full advantage of you. When such incidents occurs too often either the players are simply not good enough, plain lazy or that they are taking advantage of Klopp.

      Klopp must start to use the sledgehammer. Players future doesn't lie in those few off season friendly games. If that's the case, how Klopp retain the players then he got it all wrong. It stretches over 38 games.

      There must be a point system somewhere to say if you fall below a certain point you will be a back up player or sold.

      Stop that fatherly figure Klopp. These players are on huge paycheck and there is no such thing as free lunch in this world. They are expected to perform. Say I'm a slave driver, yes i am but that's they way to go if we want any kind of success. Anyone who can't withstand the stress just hand in a transfer letter.

      The problem lies with Klopp. He has the authority to get things right but he's just being too soft.

      Torched me, whacked me, i don't care anymore. That's how i sees the situation now.

      How can we concede 8 minutes into a game? Either the players are not committed enough or they take things too lightly.

      Some drastic actions is needed here.

      RobieSlick
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
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      Re: Watford 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #899 : Aug 14, 2017 09:44:53 am »
      I don't understand Klopp. Why did he buy Gruijic if he is not going to play him? We need something different then the three stooges in the middle of the park we have now. As I have always said Henderson is just average. Wijnuldum should only play when Henderson is not playing and at home only. Can is Can. One good game every 10 games or so.

      Klopp: Give other guys a chance. I thought he was the real deal but I think his stubborness will be his downfall. Not making changes early enough, not enough changes within the game and not buying players when we need them. I am really really disappointed in Klopp but can't see anyone better to take over quite frankly.

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