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      The defence, a discussion

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      PurpleMonkey
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      The defence, a discussion
      : Sep 11, 2017 03:16:23 pm »
      From Skrtel to Sakho, then Lovren to Matip, and now wanting VVD.... maybe the CB's are not all to blame? When was the last time we upgraded Reina? how about Masch? And each time Lucas had a run in DM, we always looked stable, didn't we?
      « Last Edit: Sep 11, 2017 04:34:24 pm by JD, Reason: Split topic from old one »
      Scotia
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #1 : Sep 11, 2017 03:45:34 pm »
      From Skrtel to Sakho, then Lovren to Matip, and now wanting VVD.... maybe the CB's are not all to blame? When was the last time we upgraded Reina? how about Masch? And each time Lucas had a run in DM, we always looked stable, didn't we?

      Bottom line mate is don't expect a true DM anytime soon - it's not how Klopp wants to set up.

      He said this summer that it wouldn't have a positive impact on the goals we're conceding.

      The goalie issue is clear though and does have a detrimental impact on the overall defence as does the absence of a leader in the backline.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #2 : Sep 11, 2017 03:52:02 pm »
      Bottom line mate is don't expect a true DM anytime soon - it's not how Klopp wants to set up.

      He said this summer that it wouldn't have a positive impact on the goals we're conceding.

      The goalie issue is clear though and does have a detrimental impact on the overall defence as does the absence of a leader in the backline.

      I get we won't see a pure DM (which is all good, not what I want tbh), but how many clubs these days play with a pure DM? Not many. A specialist is what I am asking for,, a natural #6 not a box-boxer in that #6 role. Lucas was a proper DM, yet he adapted to the setup well enough, bossing the midfield and shielding the back 4.

      I genuinely feel we would be stronger defensively if we fix these 2 positions, and our CB's will probably look more competent !

      fckmediocrity
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #3 : Sep 11, 2017 03:56:53 pm »
      We have no defence ..... whats to discuss  ?  ;D

      Roll on three and half years later and this statement is still valid..so depressing :-[
      Scotia
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #4 : Sep 11, 2017 04:01:55 pm »
      I get we won't see a pure DM (which is all good, not what I want tbh), but how many clubs these days play with a pure DM? Not many. A specialist is what I am asking for,, a natural #6 not a box-boxer in that #6 role. Lucas was a proper DM, yet he adapted to the setup well enough, bossing the midfield and shielding the back 4.

      I genuinely feel we would be stronger defensively if we fix these 2 positions, and our CB's will probably look more competent !



      I get you - I just think the way he wants to set up he'll ask one of his cb to do part of that role (in possession) and accepts that we sacrifice the other "screen" and instead look to win it back more aggressively further up the park.

      The "in possession" part is (I believe) why he was so sold on VVD and not just another "better than Lovren" defender.....

      HScRed1
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #5 : Sep 11, 2017 04:09:30 pm »
      I think PM makes a very valid point especially away from home we should look at playing with a DM.

      Now obviously we don't have a specialist DM since Lucas left, Henderson in my opinion is not the best as a defensive minded player, he still thinks like an attacking midfielder.
      I was hoping to see Can in that position this year and maybe that is one of the issues behind him not signing a new contract.

      Funnily enough City don't play with a DM because Fernandino just like Hendo is a converted Number 8. No great surprise both teams have defensive issues, the flip side is that both are devastating when attacking.

      So if we are not to play with a dedicated DM then the onus on the 3 midfielders to play as a unit is even more imperative.
      Can and Gini when played together don't seem to work on the same wavelength. The game on the weekend and the huge gaps in midfield for Silva and KdB makes my eyes water.
      If Coutinho plays midfield it would leave them with less to think about and more likely keeping a solid shape, this might be our way forward?
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #6 : Sep 11, 2017 04:18:56 pm »
      I get you - I just think the way he wants to set up he'll ask one of his cb to do part of that role (in possession) and accepts that we sacrifice the other "screen" and instead look to win it back more aggressively further up the park.

      The "in possession" part is (I believe) why he was so sold on VVD and not just another "better than Lovren" defender.....



      Different to how it was at Dortmund, wasn't it? 99% of the time, he played 2x #6 (4213 formation), but I think that was because of the #9 he had there (lewandowski & Aubameyang), where as us, we have a false 9 that loves to press, so perhaps it's partly the reason why Klopp sees sacrificing the screen to press more aggressively further up is more playing to Firmino's strengths?
      -LFC-
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #7 : Sep 11, 2017 04:19:35 pm »
      Lucas isn't my idea of a guy to transform our set up. It is more to do with a lack of quality in the spine of the team (CB, CM, GK) and how open we are in attack. The more attacking you are, the more you need to be on it defensively. We don't have the players to play as open as we do and not get punished.
      Scotia
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #8 : Sep 11, 2017 04:24:47 pm »
      Different to how it was at Dortmund, wasn't it? 99% of the time, he played 2x #6 (4213 formation), but I think that was because of the #9 he had there (lewandowski & Aubameyang), where as us, we have a false 9 that loves to press, so perhaps it's partly the reason why Klopp sees sacrificing the screen to press more aggressively further up is more playing to Firmino's strengths?

      Yeh a bit different but even there I don't think he operated in a pure "no.6" sense either - he had hummels playing out and the 2 we're launching attacks and hitting the wider forwards early.

      They couldn't play as high because Hummels doesn't have the wheels our guys (for all their flaws!) have and certainly that VVD has......should he ever arrive!
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #9 : Sep 11, 2017 04:25:58 pm »
      If Coutinho plays midfield it would leave them with less to think about and more likely keeping a solid shape, this might be our way forward?

      Because of his possession play, I agree. I think Hendo is superb defending the counter attacks, but when we sit back, I find his defensive play poor, and he struggles to get hold of the ball and dictate.

      Now, with Coutinho in midfield, we will gain a lot more control in the middle, so just like City, not only will we have the brunt of the possession, but we are less likely to sit deep which plays to our defensive advantage?
      JD
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #10 : Sep 11, 2017 04:57:35 pm »
      In 5 of Klopp's 7 seasons at Dortmund they shipped between 37 and 42 goals in their 34 game season.  More than a goal a game.  Those were the years they didn't win the league!

      The two seasons they won the title they conceded 22 and 25 goals respectively - which shows that he can achieve it.

      Then with the same back four they finished miles behind Munich in 2012-13 and conceded more than 40 again. 

      If someone can work out what went wrong in that season then maybe they can reverse engineer our problems now!  (Oh, and not forgetting the fact that actually our defenders and keeper are not really that great - that doesn't help!)
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #11 : Sep 11, 2017 05:30:51 pm »
      There is always going to be an element of risk with jurgen's style with playing a high defensive line, issue is better quality of players to implement it.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #12 : Sep 11, 2017 05:38:32 pm »
      In 5 of Klopp's 7 seasons at Dortmund they shipped between 37 and 42 goals in their 34 game season.  More than a goal a game.  Those were the years they didn't win the league!

      The two seasons they won the title they conceded 22 and 25 goals respectively - which shows that he can achieve it.

      Then with the same back four they finished miles behind Munich in 2012-13 and conceded more than 40 again. 

      If someone can work out what went wrong in that season then maybe they can reverse engineer our problems now!  (Oh, and not forgetting the fact that actually our defenders and keeper are not really that great - that doesn't help!)

      I'd be willing to bet that, as with the games here where Klopp's team has kept a clean sheet, that those teams were that much better quality when it came to moving the ball,a that they won more midfield battles and after they did, just didn't give up the ball for long stretches. I don't mean playing tiki-taka, but just passing with purpose and keeping possession as we attack.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #13 : Sep 11, 2017 07:01:56 pm »
      No matter how much we like to think VVD would have been the answer to all our problems, it really wouldn't have been. He'd have been a vast improvement for sure but until we replace that complete and utter clown in goal we will always ship goals no matter how good our defence is.
      We've signed Robertson who looks quite tidy, certainly looks an upgrade on Moreno and Milner but he seems to be way down the pecking order for some reason.

      Look at under Rafa when we had Pepe in goal and we had 3 class CB's in Carra, Hyypia and Agger. One of the main things they had in common aside from actually being capable of defending was that them 3 and Reina were all vocal and had leadership about them. Somebody dropped out of position or was sloppy and they'd soon let them know about it. When we concede a goal Migs and whoever is playing in defence all look like they are wanting to hide away in a corner, that includes Matip!

      Can't remember who it was out of Matip and Lovren but one of them said the CBs spend the whole game talking German to each other, we've got Moreno who's been at he club 3/4 years now but can barely speak a word of English. There is just never any proper communication going on within our defence and it's been like this for years now. It's like the keeper, RB, CB and LB are all playing a different game to one another. Nobody has the bollocks to take charge. When we let in a goal or nearly let in a goal, the look on their faces is instantly like they don't care because of the threat of our attack to other teams. The fact Migs picked the ball out his net 7 times from about 10/11 attempts against City is abysmal but that's standard with him, let in what is it, 11 goals in 4/5 games this season?

      Klopp is on his 3rd season now, it's about time he got a grip on that defence, he's doing a lot of talking about how it should have been done but I don't see any improvement because the same things keep happening. Needs to stop wasting money on the likes of Ox and actually improve the areas of the team that really need it.
      David Wright
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #14 : Sep 11, 2017 07:06:31 pm »
      Defence a priority, I would have thought. Urgently need a couple of defenders, to shore up our defence. Cost should be no object, even for FSG.
      althebest1
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #15 : Sep 30, 2017 02:31:09 pm »
      Winning the league, in fact anything is not all about the defence it's about the team, you defend as a team and attack as a team but getting the balance right is the trick. For what it's worth I don't think there are many "great CB's" in today's football. We want to win the league? We go out and win more games than the rest, I don't care if we let in 50 a season as long as we can score 3 or more a game. The defence gets a lot of critisism and sometimes rightly so but some of the goals are not solely to blame on the back four it's a wider argument. Get the balance right like 75% of last season (by pushing that figure up to 85%) and we are in with a good chance. Sorry for rambling  ;D
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #16 : Sep 30, 2017 03:16:48 pm »
      And each time Lucas had a run in DM, we always looked stable, didn't we?

      Did we though? I decided to take a look at which league games Lucas started as DM.

      Those are the matches I identified - they're not many:

      (01/04) LFC 3-1 Everton
      (05/04) LFC 2-2 Bournemouth
      (16/04) WBA 0-1 LFC
      (23/04) LFC 1-2 Crystal Palace
      (01/05) Watford 0-1 LFC
      (07/05) LFC 0-0 Southampton

      It's not a huge sample I'm afraid and, apart from the final two games, when we as a whole played far more defensively and struggled to create (only beating Watford because of a wondergoal, while the game vs Saints was one of the most boring I've seen at Anfield), it doesn't look like introducing Lucas changed a huge amount? We still failed to beat Bournemouth and Crystal Palace at home, not changing much about our struggles against the smaller clubs in the league last season.
      PastorGeek
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #17 : Sep 30, 2017 04:08:38 pm »
      i think, while we sometimes suffer from individual mistakes. I think we don't defend well enough as a team.
      IMHO no matter who we bring in at CB we will leak goals.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #18 : Sep 30, 2017 04:40:35 pm »
      Did we though? I decided to take a look at which league games Lucas started as DM.

      Those are the matches I identified - they're not many:

      (01/04) LFC 3-1 Everton
      (05/04) LFC 2-2 Bournemouth
      (16/04) WBA 0-1 LFC
      (23/04) LFC 1-2 Crystal Palace
      (01/05) Watford 0-1 LFC
      (07/05) LFC 0-0 Southampton

      It's not a huge sample I'm afraid and, apart from the final two games, when we as a whole played far more defensively and struggled to create (only beating Watford because of a wondergoal, while the game vs Saints was one of the most boring I've seen at Anfield), it doesn't look like introducing Lucas changed a huge amount? We still failed to beat Bournemouth and Crystal Palace at home, not changing much about our struggles against the smaller clubs in the league last season.


      With Lucas, we had more control of midfield because of his distribution, and being defensive minded, he shields the back 4 more often than not, so I always felt a more stability in the team when Lucas played.

      As for our struggles vs lesser clubs in the league last season, there were so many factors that came into play, from no Mane, unbalanced attack, lack of creativity in midfield to poor attacking full backs.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #19 : Sep 30, 2017 04:48:03 pm »
      With Lucas, we had more control of midfield because of his distribution, and being defensive minded, he shields the back 4 more often than not, so I always felt a more stability in the team when Lucas played.

      As for our struggles vs lesser clubs in the league last season, there were so many factors that came into play, from no Mane, unbalanced attack, lack of creativity in midfield to poor attacking full backs.


      Yeah it's always difficult to judge a player's influence based solely on results, as there were many other factors at play which also impacted the final score... Mane's absence near the end of the season, for example, as you mention.

      For what it's worth though - just because I checked, and someone might find interesting - this is how LFC have fared with and without Lucas as DM:

      Lucas as DM
      6 games, 8 goals scored, 5 goals conceded (GD +3), 11 points.
      1.33 goals scored per game, 0.83 goals conceded per game, 1.83 points per game.

      Without Lucas as a DM
      32 games, 70 goals scored, 37 goals conceded (GD +33), 65 points.
      2.19 goals scored per game, 1.16 goals conceded per game, 2.03 points per game.
      bigmick
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #20 : Sep 30, 2017 04:59:10 pm »
      Yeah it's always difficult to judge a player's influence based solely on results, as there were many other factors at play which also impacted the final score... Mane's absence near the end of the season, for example, as you mention.

      For what it's worth though - just because I checked, and someone might find interesting - this is how LFC have fared with and without Lucas as DM:

      Lucas as DM
      6 games, 8 goals scored, 5 goals conceded (GD +3), 11 points.
      1.33 goals scored per game, 0.83 goals conceded per game, 1.83 points per game.

      Without Lucas as a DM
      32 games, 70 goals scored, 37 goals conceded (GD +33), 65 points.
      2.19 goals scored per game, 1.16 goals conceded per game, 2.03 points per game.

      Like everyone else I only take any notice of stats when they confirm one of my opinions. These stats appear to indicate Lucas's positive influence on proceedings was massively exaggerated.

      As such I think these stats are spot on ;D.

      Diego LFC
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #21 : Sep 30, 2017 09:45:20 pm »
      Like everyone else I only take any notice of stats when they confirm one of my opinions. These stats appear to indicate Lucas's positive influence on proceedings was massively exaggerated.

      As such I think these stats are spot on ;D.



      Haha tbh those are pretty worthless stats really. I mean, there's so much that can influence a result, that I'm not a fan of those "results with / without" a certain player. But they might perhaps indicate something. We conceded less, but also scored significantly less with Lucas as DM, achieving poorer results overall. This is a fact. Whether that actually says something about Lucas' ability, or our defensive system, I'm not so sure.
      bazspeedman
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #22 : Sep 30, 2017 10:17:36 pm »
      It's sh*t.

      We need two quick, strong, intelligent, ball playing CB's.

      End of discussion.
      clint_call01
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #23 : Oct 01, 2017 07:38:22 am »
      We need to improve over Mignolet but not Karius. We need a commanding defender that puts his life on the line and play with balls. Solve and improve zonal marking, I would say to go man marking but man marking needs men not boys. Men with some O O :D
      Magillionare
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #24 : Oct 01, 2017 02:09:00 pm »
      Our defence will never be good with a clown as our last line of it. It is no coincidence Mignolet doesn't have 1 trophy in his cabinet.
      bigmick
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #25 : Oct 01, 2017 02:35:40 pm »
      Our defence will never be good with a clown as our last line of it. It is no coincidence Mignolet doesn't have 1 trophy in his cabinet.

      Fair enough mate but if we were judging the squad by that criteria, it'd only have about four blokes left in it I should think!
      Dmasta
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #26 : Oct 01, 2017 02:51:05 pm »
      No matter how much we like to think VVD would have been the answer to all our problems, it really wouldn't have been. He'd have been a vast improvement for sure but until we replace that complete and utter clown in goal we will always ship goals no matter how good our defence is.
      We've signed Robertson who looks quite tidy, certainly looks an upgrade on Moreno and Milner but he seems to be way down the pecking order for some reason.

      Look at under Rafa when we had Pepe in goal and we had 3 class CB's in Carra, Hyypia and Agger. One of the main things they had in common aside from actually being capable of defending was that them 3 and Reina were all vocal and had leadership about them. Somebody dropped out of position or was sloppy and they'd soon let them know about it. When we concede a goal Migs and whoever is playing in defence all look like they are wanting to hide away in a corner, that includes Matip!

      Can't remember who it was out of Matip and Lovren but one of them said the CBs spend the whole game talking German to each other, we've got Moreno who's been at he club 3/4 years now but can barely speak a word of English. There is just never any proper communication going on within our defence and it's been like this for years now. It's like the keeper, RB, CB and LB are all playing a different game to one another. Nobody has the bollocks to take charge. When we let in a goal or nearly let in a goal, the look on their faces is instantly like they don't care because of the threat of our attack to other teams. The fact Migs picked the ball out his net 7 times from about 10/11 attempts against City is abysmal but that's standard with him, let in what is it, 11 goals in 4/5 games this season?

      Klopp is on his 3rd season now, it's about time he got a grip on that defence, he's doing a lot of talking about how it should have been done but I don't see any improvement because the same things keep happening. Needs to stop wasting money on the likes of Ox and actually improve the areas of the team that really need it.

      Completely agree about the lack of leaders, I don't think I watched a match that Carra was involved in that you couldn't hear him shouting instructions to his teammates.

      On the point about Migs I remember when we signed him and for all his failings in commanding his box and coming out for crosses he was arguably one of the best pure shot stoppers in the league yet he's gone backwards in what should be the time of his career that he should be hitting his peak. Then there's Karius, a highly rated and extremely self confident young goalkeeper who comes in and plays like a nervous wreck aswell as Pepe going backwards in his last season with us. As far as I'm concerned that's a damning indictment on Achterberg our goalkeeping coach.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #27 : Oct 02, 2017 11:27:54 pm »
      https://twitter.com/DistanceCovered/status/914528553462583302

      Excellent analysis here and credit to Corbs for retweeting this. Showing at the end how VvD would look different in very similar shape and defending that we get into.

      Very interesting this, well worth your time, pause to read the analysis as it goes, enjoy! (Or not at our defenders, but at the prospect of VvD changing at least some of our issues).
      racerx34
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #28 : Oct 02, 2017 11:32:18 pm »
      https://twitter.com/DistanceCovered/status/914528553462583302

      Excellent analysis here and credit to Corbs for retweeting this. Showing at the end how VvD would look different in very similar shape and defending that we get into.

      Very interesting this, well worth your time, pause to read the analysis as it goes, enjoy! (Or not at our defenders, but at the prospect of VvD changing at least some of our issues).

      Except VvD would be passing back to Mignolet.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #29 : Oct 02, 2017 11:33:50 pm »
      Except VvD would be passing back to Mignolet.

      Ward will be our number 1 by next year, or Oblak... :D Please, not another year of Migs, why plant that thought in my head?

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