The defence, a discussion

I echo the system argument, as it always allows us to be vulnerable. But I also think that the personnel would make a massive difference also.

We are not so inept that teams are putting 20 shots at us a game ala Burnley for example, yet if a team has 3 on target, I would bet my life that 1 will ALWAYS go in. That's down to the keeper.

Matip would walk into any top 4 team, all the rest (minus Clyne who we miss badly) wouldn't get a sniff. Gomez and Trent in 2 years maybe, but not right now.

The attacking 4 don't do a lot to cover our full backs, and without lallana (who we also badly miss) no one is 'triggering' the press as when we are at top form. Firmino is only one half decent at it and when he's off boil, we falter.

I believe most people here have over hyped Matip. He's Average folks I'm afraid, if Brendan signed him he would get a tougher time on here I'm sure.

Can't understand why Robertson not get games he good player better then what we have

Very interesting indeed and that actually highlights two things for me:

1. The CB's themselves
2. The starting position of our goalkeeper and his 1 vs 1 ability

1. The CB's

The funny thing is, in terms of 'skillsets' both Lovren and Matip should complement each other perfectly. Lovren the more agressive one winning / attacking most of the high balls and Matip with a bit more pace sweeping behind him. I don't know what it is with the two though, seems to be a lack of understanding / communication.

Before people get their knickers in a twist, our CB's aren't the best out there, not at all, but the criticism they often face is somewhat undeserved in certain situations in my opinion and that analysis shows why. The space they sometimes have to defend and the decisions they have to make are so big and difficult.

It also highlights what I've been trying to explain so often: why not just any CB can play in our system. All the claims that "there's hundreds of CB's out there who can improve us" are simply not true. Do people really think that if there had been another CB available similar to Van Dijk, that Klopp wouldn't have tried to get him? Van Dijk (if fit and at his best) is exactly what we need and he can play both roles: the sweeper (as highlighted in the analysis because he anticipates the pass and has the pace to make up ground) but he's also agressive in attacking the ball, the perfect mix and able to play with any partner next to him (a more passive Matip or an agressive Lovren). I really hope Klopp gets his man.

2. The goalkeeper

Very simply put it looks like this (sorry for amateurish image):



That's the difference a pro-active goalkeeper makes in helping defend the space in behind the CB's. It's also why I desperately want to see Karius in goal for the rest of the season. He's no worse than Mignolet at the things Mignolet is supposedly good at, but he offers so much more in terms of pro-active defending as the last man and quick, precise distribution. He's also much better than Mignolet in these 1 vs 1 situations.

Just imagine for a second a defence with Van Dijk and Karius (or any sweeping goalkeeper). Not only would the space our CB's have to defend be smaller, with Van Dijk we'd also have more pace to defend the space. The combination of both makes defending with a high line no problem at all because any ball by the opposition would have to be inch perfect in behind the space of our CB's and in front of the space of our goalkeeper.

An excellent post Danzel and I think you're bang on the money about the CBs. It's fair that people continue to question whether there were 100s or just the odd one out there (myself included) but the above does demonstrate quite clearly how his inclusion would have strengthened the system considerably. If Jürgen manages to nab him in January, the above gives me great encouragement how we'll look going forward.

This leads me to the next point regarding system or players. When we've had the most shots in the league, creating the most chances in the league and conceding some of the fewest shots then I really think people questioning the system are a little misguided. Sure it appears right now not to be working due to results, but when you take the analysis a step deeper than the blindingly obvious you can see that a large part of what we do is actually functioning extremely well. In fact Jürgen himself is growing irritated with this because as he rightly puts it we've been the better team in almost all our matches and even against City for the time it was 11 v 11 we were the better side. I guess this gives us a good insight into which way people are leaning though, personally I think the system will be fine as long as we get Jürgen's targets, I do think this system can deliver success and a league title, so for me it is most certainly more a personnel issue than structure.

I also agree with you about Karius, while I was bitterly disappointed with his attempt at the free-kick save I do think he is far more adept at sweeping and distribution, both quick and long to be honest. Also in total agreement about his 1v1 ability compared to Migs, who rarely seems to get a hand on much that isn't hit straight at him in those scenarios. The thing about Karius is that he has to be doing better in the shot stopping department and right now we have two lads who are really failing quite hard in the primary skill of a goal-keeper. I haven't seen enough of Ward to know if he is naturally front footed, or if his distribution is up to scratch, or indeed if his 1v1 ability is up to standard but I've seen a little of him and I'd like him to be given more of a look in than having to wait for the F.A. Cup for his next game. It's fine if the other lads are keeping him out of contention with brilliant performances, but they're not and they need to know it's not good enough.

               

2. The goalkeeper

Very simply put it looks like this (sorry for amateurish image):



That's the difference a pro-active goalkeeper makes in helping defend the space in behind the CB's. It's also why I desperately want to see Karius in goal for the rest of the season. He's no worse than Mignolet at the things Mignolet is supposedly good at, but he offers so much more in terms of pro-active defending as the last man and quick, precise distribution. He's also much better than Mignolet in these 1 vs 1 situations.

Just imagine for a second a defence with Van Dijk and Karius (or any sweeping goalkeeper). Not only would the space our CB's have to defend be smaller, with Van Dijk we'd also have more pace to defend the space. The combination of both makes defending with a high line no problem at all because any ball by the opposition would have to be inch perfect in behind the space of our CB's and in front of the space of our goalkeeper.

Which begs the question, why why why does Klopp continue to play Migs? Even us amateurs can see he is not the right keeper for our system.  It just doesn't make sense at all. It was the same with Rodgers too.

Its difficult to nail down the issues we are having to one specific area. The more I look at it the more i feel its our shape and formation thats the problem. Would we be better suited playing 4 2 3 1 with Hendo and Gini as the two. Mane and Salah out wide and Phil behind Bobby.I know we play something quite similar at the moment but having two CM players with their main focus on protecting the back four.
Until we get better players in like a specialist no 6 and a top centre half we should go like this.

Which begs the question, why why why does Klopp continue to play Migs? Even us amateurs can see he is not the right keeper for our system.  It just doesn't make sense at all. It was the same with Rodgers too.

Brendan dropped him, Jürgen tried to replace him and has dropped him only for the competition / replacement not to be good enough. Brendan for buying Migs, Bogdan and selling Reina, Jürgen for buying Karius and either not having the faith in him required or accepting he isn't good enough to replace Migs.

The problem with the above is with the low starting point of Migs you would think it would be relatively easy to improve on him and there's no other way to put it than to say both managers failed. The biggest issue I still have is that it was Brendan who decided to bring him here in replace of a far better keeper who was suited perfectly to how we played under him and under Jürgen.

Just how good would this and Brendan's team have looked with Reina type sweeping and Reina type distribution. That's not dwelling on the shot stopping because even those who thought Reina had declined would concede that he could save at least 50% of the shots on target and his command of the box was far better than both Migs and Karius.

Did I mention I miss Reina?!

Brendan dropped him, Jürgen tried to replace him and has dropped him only for the competition / replacement not to be good enough. Brendan for buying Migs, Bogdan and selling Reina, Jürgen for buying Karius and either not having the faith in him required or accepting he isn't good enough to replace Migs.

The problem with the above is with the low starting point of Migs you would think it would be relatively easy to improve on him and there's no other way to put it than to say both managers failed. The biggest issue I still have is that it was Brendan who decided to bring him here in replace of a far better keeper who was suited perfectly to how we played under him and under Jürgen.

Just how good would this and Brendan's team have looked with Reina type sweeping and Reina type distribution. That's not dwelling on the shot stopping because even those who thought Reina had declined would concede that he could save at least 50% of the shots on target and his command of the box was far better than both Migs and Karius.

Did I mention I miss Reina?!

Let’s get Reina back then, F**k it

Brendan dropped him, Jürgen tried to replace him and has dropped him only for the competition / replacement not to be good enough. Brendan for buying Migs, Bogdan and selling Reina, Jürgen for buying Karius and either not having the faith in him required or accepting he isn't good enough to replace Migs.

The problem with the above is with the low starting point of Migs you would think it would be relatively easy to improve on him and there's no other way to put it than to say both managers failed. The biggest issue I still have is that it was Brendan who decided to bring him here in replace of a far better keeper who was suited perfectly to how we played under him and under Jürgen.

Just how good would this and Brendan's team have looked with Reina type sweeping and Reina type distribution. That's not dwelling on the shot stopping because even those who thought Reina had declined would concede that he could save at least 50% of the shots on target and his command of the box was far better than both Migs and Karius.

Did I mention I miss Reina?!

You guys are selling people dreams.

I loved Pepe Reina, but he was declining, and he has done well in his stint in Italy, but some of the things people are saying do not make sense.....at all.

Manchester City replaced Joe Hart with a goalkeeper that suited the way they like to play, and Claudio Bravo did not deliver. Would he have performed better with the setup and increased protection that they now have? Absolutely.

When Manchester United needed a goalkeeper, they bet big on De Gea, and Atletico replaced him with Courtois, who was then replaced by big money signing Oblak. Manchester City spent big on Claudio Bravo, it did not work out, so they spent big money on Ederson.

Goalkeeper is a vital position in the team, but one where this team has been trying to be cheap about. Mignolet was not expensive, and there were a lot of good goalkeepers around. Karius was cheap, and when concerns were raised about him, talk was the manager wants him and that should be good enough.

It was the same with Matip. Free transfer, and someone who was fourth choice behind Nastasic, Howedes and Neustadter was now being hyped as being one of the best additions of the last window. If you can scout, and there are teams that are really good at this, then you skimp on money and trust your ability. If that department is wanting, then you need help as a football club, and not only that, you have to put up the money that is needed to get a quality addition.

Rodgers may have been to blame for not replacing Reina adequately, but if that is the case, Klopp should also carry his fair share for not replacing Mignolet, but getting someone who is now his understudy.

Rodgers may have been to blame for not replacing Reina adequately, but if that is the case, Klopp should also carry his fair share for not replacing Mignolet, but getting someone who is now his understudy.

At the top you say I'm selling dreams and you conclude like this, re-read what I wrote, I held Jürgen just as accountable as Brendan. My only gripe with Brendan was that it was his choice to replace Reina, yes he may have been on decline, but not so much so as he still wouldn't have been much better than Migs, as you say he's played well in Italy by all accounts.

In either case I'm in total agreement with you about it being a crucial and difficult position to fill and if we were to spend big on a goalkeeper we were sure would do a job then I'd have no issue whatsoever as we've had to endure sub standard performances from every single one of them Migs/Bogdan/Karius (Ward less so) and I'm tired of it.

Very interesting indeed and that actually highlights two things for me:

1. The CB's themselves
2. The starting position of our goalkeeper and his 1 vs 1 ability

1. The CB's

The funny thing is, in terms of 'skillsets' both Lovren and Matip should complement each other perfectly. Lovren the more agressive one winning / attacking most of the high balls and Matip with a bit more pace sweeping behind him. I don't know what it is with the two though, seems to be a lack of understanding / communication.

Before people get their knickers in a twist, our CB's aren't the best out there, not at all, but the criticism they often face is somewhat undeserved in certain situations in my opinion and that analysis shows why. The space they sometimes have to defend and the decisions they have to make are so big and difficult.

It also highlights what I've been trying to explain so often: why not just any CB can play in our system. All the claims that "there's hundreds of CB's out there who can improve us" are simply not true. Do people really think that if there had been another CB available similar to Van Dijk, that Klopp wouldn't have tried to get him? Van Dijk (if fit and at his best) is exactly what we need and he can play both roles: the sweeper (as highlighted in the analysis because he anticipates the pass and has the pace to make up ground) but he's also agressive in attacking the ball, the perfect mix and able to play with any partner next to him (a more passive Matip or an agressive Lovren). I really hope Klopp gets his man.

2. The goalkeeper

Very simply put it looks like this (sorry for amateurish image):



That's the difference a pro-active goalkeeper makes in helping defend the space in behind the CB's. It's also why I desperately want to see Karius in goal for the rest of the season. He's no worse than Mignolet at the things Mignolet is supposedly good at, but he offers so much more in terms of pro-active defending as the last man and quick, precise distribution. He's also much better than Mignolet in these 1 vs 1 situations.

Just imagine for a second a defence with Van Dijk and Karius (or any sweeping goalkeeper). Not only would the space our CB's have to defend be smaller, with Van Dijk we'd also have more pace to defend the space. The combination of both makes defending with a high line no problem at all because any ball by the opposition would have to be inch perfect in behind the space of our CB's and in front of the space of our goalkeeper.

There might not be hundreds of defenders out there who can improve us but equally ridiculous is the suggestion there is only one.

Holding a high defensive line and you run the risk of being split by a raking pass, as it happened yesterday. Basically you are level with the attacker but have far to much space to defend in behind. It's risky business.With both full backs supporting we are laid open to the quick counter attack.

Klopp will be thinking lets get at United and show how classy we are, our quick football will be their undoing. May be he should look to stiffle, hold, keep it tight, take a 0-0 and build on some sort of defensive solidity.Full backs first job is to defend, hold your position, ditto Matip and Lovren, don't sit to high when we are on the attack. Be more aggressive in the air, attack the ball. Midfield get back to double up down the flanks, give the full backs more cover.

Goes against the grain but we have to start getting clean sheets one way or the other.

At the top you say I'm selling dreams and you conclude like this, re-read what I wrote, I held Jürgen just as accountable as Brendan. My only gripe with Brendan was that it was his choice to replace Reina, yes he may have been on decline, but not so much so as he still wouldn't have been much better than Migs, as you say he's played well in Italy by all accounts.

In either case I'm in total agreement with you about it being a crucial and difficult position to fill and if we were to spend big on a goalkeeper we were sure would do a job then I'd have no issue whatsoever as we've had to endure sub standard performances from every single one of them Migs/Bogdan/Karius (Ward less so) and I'm tired of it.

I honestly lost count of the amount of goals Reina conceded at the near post before he got binned. He was not golden glove Pepe Reina.

Rodgers made the mistake of replacing him with someone not good on the ball and slow out of his line but continuing to blame him for that when Klopp has had the time needed to address the issue and chose to go for the cheap Bundesliga player that he started and then dropped is neither here not there.

Since we are talking about the defense, it is Klopp that decided to buy bring in someone who was only starting at Schalke because others were injured, then decided to bring Klavan on the cheap and extend Lovren's stay. He then decided that the goalkeepers and defenders he had were good enough. The left back that he had dropped for a central midfielder is now starter maybe because the other guy he brought in is maybe not good enough, or maybe needs more time to get comfortable, or maybe both.....who knows? The only thing we know is that he is not starting regularly, and the team is a shambles at the back.

Klopp has had four windows to try and shape this team into his own, and to date he has more misses in the market than he has hits, that is on him.

Don't know whether he's had his misses in the market...that's his own business. But he has may be only the Jan window to do something about the defense and he also has to sign a proven top line goal scorer and they start at £50m+

...I was hoping Karius would be that player, and his average position seems to be indeed further up the pitch in comparison to Mignolet, but so far he's failed to impress in the other aspects of his game, including on the ball.

The thing about Karius is that he has to be doing better in the shot stopping department and right now we have two lads who are really failing quite hard in the primary skill of a goal-keeper.           

@ Diego and Luke, fully agree that he hasn't shown yet what he can do in a few other aspects of his game, including shot stopping. Though I think, other than the Arsenal game, his distribution (kicking and throwing) has been very good and we've seen him succesfully sweeping quite a few times too, so there's that at least. A lot of that is down to a combination of pressure and wanting to impress.

Without wanting to make excuses, it has been far from easy for Karius since he has come in. The majority of Liverpool fans were sick of the sight of Mignolet in goal and wanted a replacement to come in that would immediately take his place and set the league on fire. That's a huge amount of pressure on a young goalkeeper. That rarely happens when young goalkeepers from other leagues come to the PL. Almost all of them, no matter how good they were in La Liga, The Bundesliga, Ligue 1, ... Needed time to adapt to the PL, time Karius just hasn't had yet (he has played about 7 games in the PL, that's just not enough). Both De Gea and Lloris were benched early on in their careers too for Lindegaard and I think Friedel back then. Should look up some vids of the howlers they made in their early years in the PL.

A quick summary of his Liverpool career so far:

He arrives and gets to play a few games in pre-season where he ends up breaking his hand on Lovren's head. He's out for about 1.5 months (?) and misses the start of the PL. At the end of October 2016, Mignolet is suddenly dropped in favour of Karius, who starts off his Liverpool career with a decent run of games, winning 3 games and drawing 1, conceding 3 in the process (2-4 at Palace and 6-1 against Watford, cracking games). Don't remember him having to make any spectacular saves, but did look shaky on high balls / set pieces, which shouldn't be a surprise at all after having broken his hand and still adapting to the league.

Bring on the Bournemouth game, 4-3. Both the media and the fans are on his and Klopp's back, he's not good enough. The week after, West-Ham at home, 2-2 (Payet's free kick I think?) and he gets dropped. Pressure from both the media and the fans was getting ridiculous and Klopp decides to take him out of the spotlight.

Things settle down a bit and then comes the month January. Karius is given some gametime again against Plymouth and Southampton in the League and FA Cup. Both Southampton games were, in my opinion, his best games for us so far actually. He kept us in that tie on multiple occasions. We get kicked out of both cups and that's his season over.

So far this season, three competitive games: Arsenal, Sevilla and Spartak.

It's just way too early to cast a judgement on the lad, so many keepers take at least a full season to adapt to the PL.

Which begs the question, why why why does Klopp continue to play Migs? Even us amateurs can see he is not the right keeper for our system.  It just doesn't make sense at all. It was the same with Rodgers too.

The media and the fans play a big role in that decision for me, mate. I think Klopp still has the belief that Karius can be his long term #1, you don't give CL games to a keeper you don't trust or who you don't think is good enough. Playing the European games takes the spotlight of the English media off of him a bit. With the focus already being on our defence and goalkeeper so much, every foot he'd set wrong would be highlighted and analysed into oblivion. I'm pretty sure Mignolet will be gone after this season and that next season, with Klopp's spine (Van Dijk, Keita, Firmino) hopefully in place, we'll see Karius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UtsMmVUFa8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXtTRokJbKU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAVVoC7KgyE

These are full game videos of Karius at Mainz, not just highlights, so you can see both the good and the bad he does. Look at all the 1 vs 1 situations, the distribution, how quick he is across his line (his footwork is so much better than Mignolet's). He is everything we were looking for in a goalkeeper, it just hasn't come out yet and we should give him the time to show us what he can do. Not lable him 'not good enough' after the handful of games he has played for us.

There might not be hundreds of defenders out there who can improve us but equally ridiculous is the suggestion there is only one.

I never suggested there was only one. There's plenty at the top clubs in Europe. Good luck getting them to come to Liverpool. That's just the whole availability discussion all over again. We actually made a list of a handful CB's, all of which I agreed with would improve us.

People were raving about Sule for example, have a look at him now at Bayern. He's shitting himself and he has been piss poor so far in a side that plays dominant football.

That's an other reason why I think Klopp is fixed on Van Dijk so much, he doesn't want to take the risk of bringing in a CB from Spain, Germany, France, ... who would need both the time to adapt to the PL (if they can adapt at all) and to the system we play. Van Dijk wouldn't need to adapt to the PL, he has been here for a full season already.

I was watching Sporting Clube de Braga the other day in the Europa League, and also in the Portuguese league, and was impressed with the sweeping work done by their goalkeeper Matheus, always ready to get out of the box and anticipate attacks, in nearly a reckless manner if I'm being honest... but then again I'm of the opinion that building from the back / GK sweeping is supposed to look uncomfortable, otherwise you're not doing it right, because then it would mean you're just playing safe (passing sideways all the time, or only anticipating easy balls you're certain to win) when the whole purpose is to know how to deal with danger and make good decisions under pressure.

I forgot to answer to this part, I agree with that too. The goalkeepers who sweep are mad men and it does indeed look 'reckless'. Sometimes it'll make them look like a fool though if they miss the interception, but that's the risk they take.

I also think that it's something our fans have to get used to, the whole playing out from the back. Whenever our CB's, a midfielder and Mignolet try to play it out from the back, you can just feel the anxiety amongst the fans in the stadium and the reactions on the live match thread speak volumes too. Klopp instructs them to do that to draw players out. It's something our players have to keep doing, it has to become 2nd nature to them to be comfortable in playing it out from the back. Fans getting on their backs because they are doing so, doesn't help the players at all.

I never suggested there was only one. There's plenty at the top clubs in Europe. Good luck getting them to come to Liverpool. That's just the whole availability discussion all over again. We actually made a list of a handful CB's, all of which I agreed with would improve us.

People were raving about Sule for example, have a look at him now at Bayern. He's shitting himself and he has been piss poor so far in a side that plays dominant football.

That's an other reason why I think Klopp is fixed on Van Dijk so much, he doesn't want to take the risk of bringing in a CB from Spain, Germany, France, ... who would need both the time to adapt to the PL (if they can adapt at all) and to the system we play. Van Dijk wouldn't need to adapt to the PL, he has been here for a full season already.

I forgot to answer to this part, I agree with that too. The goalkeepers who sweep are mad men and it does indeed look 'reckless'. Sometimes it'll make them look like a fool though if they miss the interception, but that's the risk they take.

I also think that it's something our fans have to get used to, the whole playing out from the back. Whenever our CB's, a midfielder and Mignolet try to play it out from the back, you can just feel the anxiety amongst the fans in the stadium and the reactions on the live match thread speak volumes too. Klopp instructs them to do that to draw players out. It's something our players have to keep doing, it has to become 2nd nature to them to be comfortable in playing it out from the back. Fans getting on their backs because they are doing so, doesn't help the players at all.

Your first paragraph makes no sense if we want a player there is absolute no reason why the 9th richest club in the world can't get him.

The excuses of we don't have CL, players won't come to play for Rodgers, can't get value in January.
Don't buy the FSG spin buddy.

Whatever we were willing to pay Saints we could easily have prised any top talent away from a European club.

Klopp doesn't want to risk bringing in someone in case he doesn't adjust quick enough!
That's hilarious because that risk has probably already back fired as there will be no title chase and possibly even no Top 4 this season.

Your first paragraph makes no sense if we want a player there is absolute no reason why the 9th richest club in the world can't get him.

The excuses of we don't have CL, players won't come to play for Rodgers, can't get value in January.
Don't buy the FSG spin buddy.

Whatever we were willing to pay Saints we could easily have prised any top talent away from a European club.

Klopp doesn't want to risk bringing in someone in case he doesn't adjust quick enough!
That's hilarious because that risk has probably already back fired as there will be no title chase and possibly even no Top 4 this season.

Good luck getting teams like Real Madrid, Bayern, PSG, City, Juventus and even Tottenham (look at the money they get for their top players each time) for example, to sell to us, unless they want to get rid off the player. That's the European top teams I was talking about. Then we had Napoli for example who were asking near £70 million for Koulibaly two seasons ago. That's still a good amount of money more than we were willing to offer for Van Dijk.

Being the 9th richest team in the world means f**k all if you don't act like the 9th richest team in the world, does it?

Yes, he took a risk and it back fired. Had he been able to see into the future he might have decided otherwise. He trusted the defenders who had gotten him into top 4 last season, to be able to do so again. Blame the man for trusting his players.

I'm pretty sure I read, more than once, that we "would only buy players who fit". I assumed that meant "fit" the system.

The defenders we brought in (presumably because they were a "fit")to supplement a pish poor defence: Karius, Matip, Klavan & Robertson.

Really like?

What came first the chicken or the egg?😊

That's an other reason why I think Klopp is fixed on Van Dijk so much, he doesn't want to take the risk of bringing in a CB from Spain, Germany, France, ... who would need both the time to adapt to the PL (if they can adapt at all) and to the system we play.

Hmm... 🤔

He brought both Klavan and Matip in from Germany so that theory really doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny mate, unless... unless you're inferring he thinks 'once bitten, twice shy.'

AND...

Not forgetting, of course, that his other centre-half actually came from the P.L. unless... unless you believe Jürgen is actually thinking 'we need more just like that'. 😊

Nah. More like the T.C's options [B, C & D] were even more pish than what we have. In my opinion, obviously. 👍

Hmm... 🤔

He brought both Klavan and Matip in from Germany so that doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny unless... unless you're inferring he thinks 'once bitten...'

AND...

Not forgetting, of course, that his other centre-half actually came from the P.L. unless... unless you're inferring Jürgen is thinking 'we need more just like that'. 😊

Nah. More like the T.C's options [B, C & D] were even more pish than what we have. In my opinion, obviously. 👍

Yep - B, C & D in my humble blah blah likely comprised two prospects and a slightly shopworn out of contract.

Of course I have zero physical proof......just 7 years of experience 🙄

I never suggested there was only one. There's plenty at the top clubs in Europe. Good luck getting them to come to Liverpool. That's just the whole availability discussion all over again. We actually made a list of a handful CB's, all of which I agreed with would improve us.

People were raving about Sule for example, have a look at him now at Bayern. He's shitting himself and he has been piss poor so far in a side that plays dominant football.

That's an other reason why I think Klopp is fixed on Van Dijk so much, he doesn't want to take the risk of bringing in a CB from Spain, Germany, France, ... who would need both the time to adapt to the PL (if they can adapt at all) and to the system we play. Van Dijk wouldn't need to adapt to the PL, he has been here for a full season already.

I forgot to answer to this part, I agree with that too. The goalkeepers who sweep are mad men and it does indeed look 'reckless'. Sometimes it'll make them look like a fool though if they miss the interception, but that's the risk they take.

I also think that it's something our fans have to get used to, the whole playing out from the back. Whenever our CB's, a midfielder and Mignolet try to play it out from the back, you can just feel the anxiety amongst the fans in the stadium and the reactions on the live match thread speak volumes too. Klopp instructs them to do that to draw players out. It's something our players have to keep doing, it has to become 2nd nature to them to be comfortable in playing it out from the back. Fans getting on their backs because they are doing so, doesn't help the players at all.

Tottenham had the best defense in the league last season, that did not stop them from getting Davinson Sanchez for £42M.

There is always this excuse about the system and how it cannot be tampered with. Petr Cech is not great with the ball at his feet, neither is Thibaut Courtois......they are not anywhere close to the level of Cabellero, Claudio Bravo, De Gea or Ederson, and Hugo Lloris is not much better with the ball at his feet. That has not stopped these teams playing their football.

Lovren, Matip, Klavan are all making mistakes this season, but somehow people are now debating that staying with them and not risking the money on someone else from another league is something that could not be risked because they might not adapt as fast? Eric Bailly, John Stones, Shkodran Mustafi, Joel Matip all came into the league last season. Bailly is the only player that looked assured last season, but as this season has progressed, he has got better, as has Stones, and Mustafi has to a great degree cut out the silly moments he had, Matip is regressing.

Over at Chelsea, who were champions, the addition of Rudiger and Christensen (who both made their name outside England) has not meant that the team has gone backwards, but that they have improved their depth with two players who can come in, start games and you do not have a great drop in quality.

It is the same excuse that is given when you mention a striker....you will always be met by ''Firmino fits the system and despite his lack of goals, sticking with him is the best thing to do.''

Systems are built for players, and changed to suit players.

At the end of the day, this is another excuse post. We cannot get good players because there is no champions league....but United, Chelsea, Arsenal do not seem to have an issue in that regard. Players do not want to join.....even the one that wanted to join was not sold because the team tapped him up.

Tottenham had the best defense in the league last season, that did not stop them from getting Davinson Sanchez for £42M.

There is always this excuse about the system and how it cannot be tampered with. Petr Cech is not great with the ball at his feet, neither is Thibaut Courtois......they are not anywhere close to the level of Cabellero, Claudio Bravo, De Gea or Ederson, and Hugo Lloris is not much better with the ball at his feet. That has not stopped these teams playing their football.

Lovren, Matip, Klavan are all making mistakes this season, but somehow people are now debating that staying with them and not risking the money on someone else from another league is something that could not be risked because they might not adapt as fast? Eric Bailly, John Stones, Shkodran Mustafi, Joel Matip all came into the league last season. Bailly is the only player that looked assured last season, but as this season has progressed, he has got better, as has Stones, and Mustafi has to a great degree cut out the silly moments he had, Matip is regressing.

Over at Chelsea, who were champions, the addition of Rudiger and Christensen (who both made their name outside England) has not meant that the team has gone backwards, but that they have improved their depth with two players who can come in, start games and you do not have a great drop in quality.

It is the same excuse that is given when you mention a striker....you will always be met by ''Firmino fits the system and despite his lack of goals, sticking with him is the best thing to do.''

Systems are built for players, and changed to suit players.

At the end of the day, this is another excuse post. We cannot get good players because there is no champions league....but United, Chelsea, Arsenal do not seem to have an issue in that regard. Players do not want to join.....even the one that wanted to join was not sold because the team tapped him up.

1. They sold Wimmer, their only other CB. Did you expect them to go into the season with only Alderweireld, Vertonghen and Dier while most of the time playing a system with three CB's? And can you tell me how Sanchez has looked so far? To me he has looked pretty shakey and is lucky to be playing in the middle of the three CB's where teams can't isolate him like we do to all the CB's who play in a back three. (Bayern, Hoffenheim, Arsenal, City). We always identify the weak link in the back three, put Salah and Mane on them and made them look sh*t. Sanchez would be that weak link. Alderweireld and Vertonghen are top CB's though and I'd have them here in a heartbeat.

2. Courtois, Cech and Lloris indeed aren't good with the ball at their feet. Courtois showed us again as such against City where they tried to play out from the back a few times and it went completely wrong, resulting in him hoofing everything up the pitch and constantly losing possession because they didn't have a focal point on the pitch. He's no good as a sweeper keeper either, look at some of the penalties Chelsea have conceded over the years because he's too late, he actually has gotten a red card or two too because of that. Also the complete opposite goalkeeper of what we need, Chelsea sit deep a lot of the time, can't compare it to how we play.

Cech is an other good example, he is nowhere near the goalkeeper he once was and has faced plenty of criticism from analysts and fans because he has become so slow and his kicking is about as bad as Mignolet's.

Lloris is another perfect example you give there and he gets away with so much it's ridiculous. He is one of the worst in the PL with the ball at his feet. Plenty of times they nearly conceded because he fu**ed up trying to play it out from the back or when he's too late to intercept the ball. Just last week against Nicosia again, almost conceded because he fu**ed up yet again and the ball just went past the wrong side of the goalpost for Nicosia. Yet Lloris gets nowhere near the stick some of the other goalkeepers get.

Of course it hasn't stopped their teams playing the football they want. But where did Arsenal end last season? Has Spurs won anything yet with Lloris as their goalkeeper and their magnificent defence?

3. You're just making my points for me. How did Stones look in his first season at City? He was atrocious, even coming from a PL team, needed a year to adapt and he's still a weak link in that City defence. Mustafi isn't that good a CB either, most of the Arsenal fans I know want him gone and Wenger even benched him. The only player in that list that adapted really well is Bailly and he has looked very good I have to admit. I don't agree that Matip has regressed, if anything, he has stagnated in his development due to the players he's playing with. He has got some stick and rightly so, though.

Since we are talking about the defense, it is Klopp that decided to buy bring in someone who was only starting at Schalke because others were injured, then decided to bring Klavan on the cheap and extend Lovren's stay. He then decided that the goalkeepers and defenders he had were good enough. The left back that he had dropped for a central midfielder is now starter maybe because the other guy he brought in is maybe not good enough, or maybe needs more time to get comfortable, or maybe both.....who knows? The only thing we know is that he is not starting regularly, and the team is a shambles at the back.

Klopp has had four windows to try and shape this team into his own, and to date he has more misses in the market than he has hits, that is on him.

Would you mind explaining me how a 4th choice CB for Schalke ends up playing about 100 league games and a dozen CL games in his last three seasons?

Matip was always first choice and the only reason he missed games was due to a broken foot and at the end because we had signed him in January on a free after he refused to extend his contract. He was loved by all the Schalke fans. So that's a lie.

Klavan was indeed a cheap option, but have you actually looked into why Klopp decided to sign him? Klopp has said he had watched and followed him for years in the Bundesliga. Or is it just easy enough putting the 'failure' lable on him after now seeing he has difficulties adapting to the pace of the PL? He was brought in as a 3rd CB behind Matip and Lovren and to cover the period after which Klopp would be able to bring in the CB's he wants. He thought he could do a decent job, turns out that if he has to play multiple games, he can't.

Moreno is a starter because right now he deserves to be a starter. He has improved significantly. Still plenty of room for improvement though. The only reason Robertson isn't getting too many starts is because he's getting used to the tactics and the system as a whole. How many players Klopp has brought in have gone in straight away without having a pre-season?