Liverpool 2-2 Sevilla : In game and Post Match discussion

https://twitter.com/Ifcmatt/status/908093943606333440

If we do go in for VvD in January (please god) then the price just went up another £10m. I know Jürgen is saying that we need to concentrate more and it's up to others to shout/coach/whip into line but there comes a point when you simply accept some players are accidents waiting to happen and we've known this for a long time about Lovren.

Sure Jürgen can claim that he went for VvD and all the rest of it but when you watch our CBs and then listen to him defend them they really do owe him some bloody good performances for that massively overspent loyalty.

There comes a time Jürgen when lines must be drawn and acceptances made. You can coach a lot of things but to coach the calamitous nature of players and that god given ability to just f**k up the simplest of tasks can't, in my opinion, ever be fixed.

Honestly mate are you trying to torture the fan base by putting up that horror show 

I think the absolute worst is this, instead of signing a quality defender, we let the only one we had go to Crystal fecking Palace.

Honestly mate are you trying to torture the fan base by putting up that horror show 

I actually laughed watching it there to be honest, it has got to that point with Dejan. Sure I was pissed off with him at the time but now, looking back I just wonder how in the name of sweet F**k is it possible to do that in your first CL game for an awful long time. All that takes is concentration, nothing else, all of us here could clear that. It just doesn't make a single bit of sense unless you know the lad is capable of the most bizarre F**k ups imaginable.

The same, imo, is one of the problems with Mignolet and that "there's a F**k up coming" lingers over us constantly when these types of players are playing. As FMS said it's like the chuckle-brothers and it does put an extra level of mental strain on things. Even just watching it you feel the tension building as legs and arms go flailing, the lads playing with them are only human and of course they feel it too.

Their manger conte knows that defense is most important thing in football no way we get any better we just same as Brenden Rogers team very good going forward but sh*t in defense l feel klopp seem pick same players even when piss poor

I actually laughed watching it there to be honest, it has got to that point with Dejan. Sure I was pissed off with him at the time but now, looking back I just wonder how in the name of sweet f**k is it possible to do that in your first CL game for an awful long time. All that takes is concentration, nothing else, all of us here could clear that. It just doesn't make a single bit of sense unless you know the lad is capable of the most bizarre f**k ups imaginable.

The same, imo, is one of the problems with Mignolet and that "there's a f**k up coming" lingers over us constantly when these types of players are playing. As FMS said it's like the chuckle-brothers and it does put an extra level of mental strain on things. Even just watching it you feel the tension building as legs and arms go flailing, the lads playing with them are only human and of course they feel it too.

Its amazing isnt it? You look back at the players we have had, Hyypia, Hansen, Lawrence, then you look at the others we have had, Piechnik, Tanner, Hysen, and the goalkeepers, Grobbelaar, Clemence, Reina and of course Arphexaad, Hooper and Carson.

However much we laugh and miss the players of the past, this lot, simply, has to be the worst of the lot. And like you say, it is laughable at how inept they are. Never before have we had such a shambles in defence as bad as we have now.

Why did we spent 40 million on ox when we need maybe two cbacks in summer

https://twitter.com/Ifcmatt/status/908093943606333440

Lampard was blaming Moreno for that too, but seriously, how can you? I bet if Maldini was able to get back and in front of that striker, he wouldn't as he would expect a defender in Lovren's position to clear that ball 1000/1000.

I smoke 40 ciggies a day and could have cleared that 😡Wouldn't have that c**t lovren in a Sunday league team he's f***in useless

Lampard was blaming Moreno for that too, but seriously, how can you? I bet if Maldini was able to get back and in front of that striker, he wouldn't as he would expect a defender in Lovren's position to clear that ball 1000/1000.

If Maldini, Baresi, Costacurta et al were the enlightenment of football defending then we are single handedly dragging that aspect of the game back to the dark ages. It is hellish to watch and to go into football matches expecting your players to make mistakes is a very poor state of affairs for all involved.

A genuinely hateful aspect of our game and my biggest fear is that Klopp is being at best naive on the issue and at worse utterly flippant on the matter.

Looks like I didn't miss much having no power (thanks Irma) and spotty cell service trying to follow the game. Unfortunately had you told me the score line I probably could have guessed how the game went. Same old problems it sounds like. Ugh......

Do find it slightly odd that a someone who misses a penalty gets sympathy while others get abuse, yeah managers have favorites but so do fans

All the time.

If Mignolet was in goals there and did exactly what Karius did, he would be slaughtered here.

Yet, unbelievably, I have read fans (who regularly mock Mignolet) state that Karius was not at fault for either goal, and commanded his area well.

Firmino had a great game. He tapped in a cross that if he hadn't, another player would (Mane if I recall), and then he missed an easy penalty (keeper had already dived) - but that was okay. Apparently. So I am told.

The hypocrisy is amusing.

Our team will not win anything this season, they will be out of a CL spot too. Not with this defense. It's brutal, but it's realistic. I see City, United, Chelsea, Tottenham cleary better than us, then we'll fight with Everton, Saints and Arsenal for No. 5. I am dissappointed, because this year was the first that really counts and Jürgen did a step backward overall.

Only positive is the treatment of Coutinho: no booing and he'll be ready for us from now on.

Jürgen Klopp admitted to feeling disappointed after a late Sevilla equaliser denied Liverpool all three points in their opening Champions League group game, but the boss insisted his side will learn from Wednesday's 2-2 draw.

Jürgen Klopp admits Liverpool have a 'a lot of things to learn' from Saturday's defeat to Manchester City.

Seriously, if they havent F***ing learned anything by now, they never F***ing will!

So tired of hearing this learning sh*t. Its the go to phrase that in itself is saying, they havent learned anything yet in there career and the chances are, we will see more of this as they NEVER FECKING WILL!

Noticeable now for me that the midfield is not offering enough protection to the back four, who (Matip apart) aren't particularly good. 

For me, this is the biggest conundrum.  In theory, the trio we play in midfield should offer decent protection for our back four, but it just doesn't happen.  It's like they get in each other's way and step on each other's toes....  I think with a fit Coutinho/Lallana we will only ever see 2 of the other's in the team at a time. 

I can't help but feel that our gung-ho tactics will always leave us extremely vulnerable at the back regardless of who is in the side.  With that in mind, I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be best to say F**k it, and only play 1 of Hendo / Gini / Can as the anchor, with 2 of Coutinho / Lallana / Ox ahead of them.  If our game plan is "we'll score more than you" then let's just lean into it.....

Side note:  I've never been a fan of Can at CM, and Hendo has been less than convincing this season.  I can't help but feel like Gini would do a great job if tasked with playing the "Makelele role" at CDM.  Probably won't happen, but I actually think he'd be a good fit for that job. 

Covers many people's comments really.  You can be nearly men - edge into top four, get to quarter finals/semi finals but it's very hard to go all the way when you can't defend.

Noticeable now for me that the midfield is not offering enough protection to the back four, who (Matip apart) aren't particularly good.  Lovren falling over for their first was pretty standard.  Their second they picked up the ball from the throw under absolutely no pressure - not sure what Henderson was doing there.

Silly initial yellow card as well from Gomez for the shirt tug.  Just so needless - highlights his immaturity really (and probably the unconscious belief he had that Lovren wouldn't help him out).

Doesn't look like we're getting a defender anytime soon - can't imagine us doing anything of interest in note in January. 

I'm fairly positive though in the sense that I think just changing Henderson and Lovren could make a fairly significant difference.  Keita will be next summer and hopefully a quality centre-back to join him.

Also, I'm struggling to see the reason behind the purchase of Oxlade Chamberlain.  We've paid £35M for a player who we could have signed for free next summer and he's playing 3 minutes of a game at Anfield.

A few points on this mate:

1) Totally agree with the nearly men label, I don't think we'll win anything with this squad because, as you suggest, the consistency is so unlikely.

2) It was actually very early on that the acres of space were highlighted in the midfield and how on counter attacks we appear outnumbered even when we shouldn't be. Our central lads, specifically Can and Henderson, have no threat awareness. Sure they know when to press and when to support the other lads in relation to where the ball is, but when there's a threat developing around or behind them they're fairly oblivious to it and I think is a very difficult thing to coach as to me you've either got this or not. Usually it's a talent any DM absolutely needs and one I used to praise Lucas for plenty, right now we don't have a player in the squad who could play that 6 role effectively imo.

3) Your point on Gomez I believe is a large problem why we concede a lot of goals because players don't have faith in others. Unfortunately they're right not to and again I'm not sure that Dejan or Mignolet can be fixed, it's just natural instincts that make them do the things that make the rest of us go WTF!?

4) January I expect to be different this time around, Jürgen admitted to learning from the last time when he chose not to add, I'll take him on his word with that.

5) Agreed on your last point especially, bringing in a top midfielder and CB to replace Henderson and Lovren and we'd improve enormously.

6) I think AOC has been bought with cover in mind as much as anything and with his versatility he'll get an awful lot of minutes as the suspensions and injuries kick in. Just think we already have Mane missing for 3 games, he'll get plenty of minutes just off the back of that.

I can't help but feel that our gung-ho tactics will always leave us extremely vulnerable at the back regardless of who is in the side.

I honestly don't understand why we need to go gung ho. Our players in Mane, Salah, Firmino and Coutinho/Lallana are way more than good enough, and then you have Moreno and TAA as full backs, Is that not enough?

I honestly don't understand why we need to go gung ho. Our players in Mane, Salah, Firmino and Coutinho/Lallana are way more than good enough, and then you have Moreno and TAA as full backs, Is that not enough?

Backed ourselves into a corner with it too, selling Lucas is looking more and more like a bad mistake in my book. I'd have him playing right now without a shadow of doubt and I'm fairly certain you would too.

I think the absolute worst is this, instead of signing a quality defender, we let the only one we had go to Crystal fecking Palace.

This.

A typical frustrating Liverpool performance.

Not the end of the world, but I'd like to quality from the group with games to spare. We don't want to be going to Spain on matchday 6 needing a result.

And we're not.

It's been long forgotten but the Istanbul side drew 0-0 against Coruna at home in the group phase, lost two other away games, and made it out of the group in a second place spot with 5 minutes to spare. And when we made it, everyone said we couldn't possibly win it. Indeed we went behind in our first ever game in this format inside 2 minutes against Boavista in 2001, yet got all the way to the quarter finals.

We had 25 attempts, so the performance wasn't frustrating, the result is, but given we were behind inside 5 minutes, a draw isn't the end of the world, or worth the Armageddon analysis that it's got.

Our first task is to get through the group, then take it from there. We haven't achieved it for 9 years, and we are third seeds for this. If it comes down to the last game at home to get there, so be it. If we don't make it, then we can say how rubbish every player and everything at the club is.

We're not buying anyone until January and probably next summer, so constantly moaning about the defence every week isn't going to make any difference. The shop has shut, we have who we have, and we now somehow have to make the best of it. If Djimi Traore could be a European champion, then surely Dejan Lovren can be. Or at least have a good go at it. It's 7 weeks before European Cup football is back here. I'm sure our group situation will have improved by then.

Game of two halves for me, first half the hangover from the City game seemed to carry on for the first five minutes including the defending, once we started playing we looked good. Had the penalty gone in, we could have even gone on and steam-rollered them. But yet again we don't take our chances and we're made to pay.

That second half was sh*te though, whatever way you look at it, everyone in the ground knew in that second half what way the game was going and it wouldn't be in our favour. We literally seemed to run out of steam from around the 60th minute mark and they were then virtually the better team and should of won it.

We should pick up points from the other two teams and qualify, but I don't fancy our chances in the knockout stages with our defence.

For me, this is the biggest conundrum.  In theory, the trio we play in midfield should offer decent protection for our back four, but it just doesn't happen.  It's like they get in each other's way and step on each other's toes....  I think with a fit Coutinho/Lallana we will only ever see 2 of the other's in the team at a time. 

I can't help but feel that our gung-ho tactics will always leave us extremely vulnerable at the back regardless of who is in the side.  With that in mind, I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be best to say f**k it, and only play 1 of Hendo / Gini / Can as the anchor, with 2 of Coutinho / Lallana / Ox ahead of them.  If our game plan is "we'll score more than you" then let's just lean into it.....

Side note:  I've never been a fan of Can at CM, and Hendo has been less than convincing this season.  I can't help but feel like Gini would do a great job if tasked with playing the "Makelele role" at CDM.  Probably won't happen, but I actually think he'd be a good fit for that job.

Agreed and I think you are right, we will only see 1, maximum 2 of the current 3 in midfield in the future. I posted it in the Emre Can Player Thread: Klopp's first choice midfield has always been Wijnaldum, Lallana and Henderson. The dynamic of that midfield three is completely different to the current midfield three. If you think about it, Can has never been a starter in the years Klopp has been here. He has always only filled in for injuries, both as the CDM and the more advanced midfielders.

The fact that we're seeing the three on the pitch together is more due to the circumstances and out of necessity than Klopp really wanting to play all three at the same time. With Lallana injured, the whole Coutinho saga and Alex only having just arrived and still getting up to speed with the tactics, Klopp has very few other options than playing the three most experienced midfielders in these kind of games. Sure Grujic and Woodburn are talented youngsters, but you can't start them in games like these.

The original plan to me seemed to be to rotate Wijnaldum, Coutinho and Lallana in the #8 positions and Can and Henderson in the #6 position. Things obviously haven't gone to plan...

Disappointing result to say the least. This one feels much worse for me than the city loss. Especially considering our last meet with them... and the fact that that c*** of a manager deserved a telling.
But when all is said and done, I can't blame Klopp or his tactics for the draw. 24 attempts on target versus whatever they had. The game could and should have been put to bed at half time. Thought we had a first half performance for the ages except we didn't score the 4 that we deserved. Asides from Lovren and Gomes who wasn't on his best game, I thought everyone was stellar for the first 45.
A few things to reflect on after this performance:
- Our defense is shambolic and one may wonder how good we good be with a solid defense (something I can blame Klopp for)
- It seems we can only control a game if we're up 3-0 at half-time. Doesn't matter how well we play, if we're not up by at least 2 at half, the winds of sh*t seem to somehow catch up to us.
- Stop with the corners. Just play it on the ground barca style. I am no statistical genius but I'd like to to compare the odds of us scoring from a corner (or aerial ball) and us playing the ball on the ground from the corner of the box. It's hard to remember the last we headed a corner in. Corners are my piss breaks.
- Lastly, Gini, Can and Hendo is just not good enough and Cout and Adam cannot be back soon enough,

Thought that most of our men played well for the most part, to the exception of Gomes, Lovren and Hendo. We deserved the win and we didn't get it because we can't defend for Shi*

I actually laughed watching it there to be honest, it has got to that point with Dejan. Sure I was pissed off with him at the time but now, looking back I just wonder how in the name of sweet f**k is it possible to do that in your first CL game for an awful long time. All that takes is concentration, nothing else, all of us here could clear that. It just doesn't make a single bit of sense unless you know the lad is capable of the most bizarre f**k ups imaginable.

The same, imo, is one of the problems with Mignolet and that "there's a f**k up coming" lingers over us constantly when these types of players are playing. As FMS said it's like the chuckle-brothers and it does put an extra level of mental strain on things. Even just watching it you feel the tension building as legs and arms go flailing, the lads playing with them are only human and of course they feel it too.

Like HS, not a fan of reliving that moment on loop. But you're on point about Migs and Lovren. It's players like that that make a 2 goal lead seem like an eternity and disaster waiting to happen. Glad to see Moreno has been getting his sh** together and hope he can continue to do so... because even today, on his yellow, he gave me the fear :-)