We AREN'T going to win the league this season, it's OK, get used to it.

Can you win the league without a 25-30 goal a season forward? 

It's something we don't have.  I know we have a number of midfielders that are going to chip in with a bag full of goals, but we don't have that one player which all title winning sides seem to have. 

It was one of the first thing moanhino got sorted, and it hurts me to say but he knows how to win the league.

Yes you can win the league without a 25-30 goal forward. In fact Chelsea have done it twice in 3 years with Costa their top scorer with only 20 goals. Key thing about their team in both title winning seasons was a monumentally consistent defence and the ability to take the lead and see out a game. So I don't buy that you need a player getting 25/30 goals because we've had that before, we had Suarez hit 30+ and Sturridge hit 21 (both more than Costa in 2 title winning seasons), and the season before that Suarez got 23 which is again more than Costa. What do we have to show for it? Nothing. Why? Because our defence hasn't been anywhere good enough. It's all well and good having a forward, maybe even 2 forwards smashing in the goals and hitting over 20 but if you can't stop conceding a vast amount of goals then it's irrelevant when it comes to gaining success.

Can you win the league without a 25-30 goal a season forward? 

It's something we don't have.  I know we have a number of midfielders that are going to chip in with a bag full of goals, but we don't have that one player which all title winning sides seem to have. 

It was one of the first thing moanhino got sorted, and it hurts me to say but he knows how to win the league.

I reckon Salah will hit 20 this season, possibly mane. But just imagine how many goals we'd have with a Van Nistlerooy type or even Javier Hernandez.

Players who are just deadly in the box would have a field day with our chances. They'd probably be on 20 already.

Can you win the league without a 25-30 goal a season forward?

Chelsea last year - top scorer Costa 20.
Leicester year before - top scorer Vardy 24
Chelsea year before - top scorer Costa 20

Can't be arsed going any further back but I'd say that kind of proves that you can. 

I guess you can interpret these how you like. Obviously it's LEAGUE ONLY, both Kane and Lukaku have scored very heavily in other comps, Aguerro and Sterling too probably.



Sergio Agüero
Man City
78 mins per goal
467 mins played
6 Goals scored
3 Assists


Álvaro Morata Chelsea
76 mins per goal
457 mins played
6Goals scored
2 Assists


Romelu Lukaku Man Utd
90 mins per goal
540 mins played
6 Goals scored
1 Assists


Raheem Sterling Man City
59 mins per goal
297 mins played
5 Goals scored
0 Assists


Jamie VardyLeicester
103 mins per goal
517 mins played
5 Goals scored
0 Assists


Mohamed Salah Liverpool
108 mins per goal
430 mins played
4 Goals scored
1 Assists


Gabriel Jesus Man City
82 mins per goal
327 mins played
4 Goals scored
0 Assists


Alexandre Lacazette Arsenal
105 mins per goal
420 mins played
4 Goals scored
0 Assists


Harry Kane Tottenham
134 mins per goal
534 mins played
4 Goals scored
0 Assists


Leroy Sané Man City
78 mins per goal
234 mins played
3 Goals scored
2 Assists


Anthony Martial Man Utd
40 mins per goal
121 mins played
3 Goals scored
1 Assists


Danny Welbeck Arsenal
134 mins per goal
403 mins played
3 Goals scored
1 Assists


Sadio Mané Liverpool
97 mins per goal
291 mins played
3 Goals scored
0 Assists


Shinji Okazaki Leicester
101 mins per goal
303 mins played
3 Goals scored
0 Assists


Javier Hernández West Ham
167 mins per goal
500 mins played
3 Goals scored
0 Assists


Paul Pogba Man Utd
180 mins per goal
360 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Roberto FirminoLiverpool
230 mins per goal
460 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Pascal Groß Brighton
249 mins per goal
498 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Christian Eriksen Tottenham
251 mins per goal
502 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Marcus Rashford Man Utd
200 mins per goal
400 mins played
2 Goals scored
1 Assists


Tomer Hemed Brighton
219 mins per goal
437 mins played
2 Goals scored
1 Assists


Dele AllivTottenham
266 mins per goal
532 mins played
2 Goals scored
1 Assists


Oumar Niasse
Everton
18 mins per goal
35 mins played
2 Goals scored
0 Assists

I guess you can interpret these how you like. Obviously it's LEAGUE ONLY, both Kane and Lukaku have scored very heavily in other comps, Aguerro and Sterling too probably.



Sergio Agüero
Man City
78 mins per goal
467 mins played
6 Goals scored
3 Assists


Álvaro Morata Chelsea
76 mins per goal
457 mins played
6Goals scored
2 Assists


Romelu Lukaku Man Utd
90 mins per goal
540 mins played
6 Goals scored
1 Assists


Raheem Sterling Man City
59 mins per goal
297 mins played
5 Goals scored
0 Assists


Jamie VardyLeicester
103 mins per goal
517 mins played
5 Goals scored
0 Assists


Mohamed Salah Liverpool
108 mins per goal
430 mins played
4 Goals scored
1 Assists


Gabriel Jesus Man City
82 mins per goal
327 mins played
4 Goals scored
0 Assists


Alexandre Lacazette Arsenal
105 mins per goal
420 mins played
4 Goals scored
0 Assists


Harry Kane Tottenham
134 mins per goal
534 mins played
4 Goals scored
0 Assists


Leroy Sané Man City
78 mins per goal
234 mins played
3 Goals scored
2 Assists


Anthony Martial Man Utd
40 mins per goal
121 mins played
3 Goals scored
1 Assists


Danny Welbeck Arsenal
134 mins per goal
403 mins played
3 Goals scored
1 Assists


Sadio Mané Liverpool
97 mins per goal
291 mins played
3 Goals scored
0 Assists


Shinji Okazaki Leicester
101 mins per goal
303 mins played
3 Goals scored
0 Assists


Javier Hernández West Ham
167 mins per goal
500 mins played
3 Goals scored
0 Assists


Paul Pogba Man Utd
180 mins per goal
360 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Roberto FirminoLiverpool
230 mins per goal
460 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Pascal Groß Brighton
249 mins per goal
498 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Christian Eriksen Tottenham
251 mins per goal
502 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists


Marcus Rashford Man Utd
200 mins per goal
400 mins played
2 Goals scored
1 Assists


Tomer Hemed Brighton
219 mins per goal
437 mins played
2 Goals scored
1 Assists


Dele AllivTottenham
266 mins per goal
532 mins played
2 Goals scored
1 Assists


Oumar Niasse
Everton
18 mins per goal
35 mins played
2 Goals scored
0 Assists

What's your point? That just shows that according to the stats, Niasse is boss.

What's your point? That just shows that according to the stats, Niasse is boss.

Roberto FirminoLiverpool
230 mins per goal
460 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists

I believe that was his point. Our number nine compared to the rest of the league's number nine's does not score enough goals to justify his place in the side, not when the other two aren't exactly prolific either. Firmino is a luxury we can't afford right now.

What's your point? That just shows that according to the stats, Niasse is boss.

Well I did say you can interpret those numbers how you like, so I didn't have a "point" in there, they were for you to make your own mind up, draw your own conclusions.

That your conclusion from them is that "Niasse is boss" is very interesting  .

Roberto FirminoLiverpool
230 mins per goal
460 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists

I believe that was his point. Our number nine compared to the rest of the league's number nine's does not score enough goals to justify his place in the side, not when the other two aren't exactly prolific either. Firmino is a luxury we can't afford right now.

Does our number 9 not help with creating & assisting in other players scoring goals?..

Does our number 9 not help with creating & assisting in other players scoring goals?..

With two assists all season, not according to those stats he doesn't.

Well I did say you can interpret those numbers how you like, so I didn't have a "point" in there, they were for you to make your own mind up, draw your own conclusions.

That your conclusion from them is that "Niasse is boss" is very interesting  .

I can't be the only dude of a certain vintage picturing Herve Villechaize (diminutive guy from Fantasy Island) saying

"Niasse is boss, boss; Niasse is boss"

Then again, maybe I am 

Roberto FirminoLiverpool
230 mins per goal
460 mins played
2 Goals scored
2 Assists

I believe that was his point. Our number nine compared to the rest of the league's number nine's does not score enough goals to justify his place in the side, not when the other two aren't exactly prolific either. Firmino is a luxury we can't afford right now.

That's one conclusion.

Also note that the top three scorers also have assists to their name rendering the myth that a genuine #9 cannot, or does not assist in creating goals is a load of bollocks as well.

That's one conclusion.

Also note that the top three scorers also have assists to their name rendering the myth that a genuine #9 cannot, or does not assist in creating and supplying goals is a load of bollocks as well.

Interesting though.

That's pretty much what I'm saying to Shabs. Firmino has less assists than Aguero, never mind less goals. He's going to have to do one or the other a lot better before he can justify his place in the side.

That's pretty much what I'm saying to Shabs. Firmino has less assists than Aguero, never mind less goals. He's going to have to do one or the other a lot better before he can justify his place in the side.

If Klopp picks him, his place is justified.
Who else does he need to answer to?
You?

He's not in the best of form, we've played half a dozen league games, and you're seriously talking about him "having to justify his place"?

I don't give a F**k about players at other clubs.
The season is a long one full of ups and downs.
Everyone knows this, and yet some have already decided who the league champions are, how we're going to end up mid table, and that we haven't a chance of winning the league.
How did chelsea get on in their first dozen games under Conte?
What happened after that?
The start to a season is no indication of how the whole season will unfold.

With two assists all season, not according to those stats he doesn't.

Lmbo at you having to explain that 😂😂

* Sits back and waits for "Yes but do they run as many kilometres per game?"

So anyhow, all is not lost; what do you reckon... all we have to do is stay in touch until January, buy a striker, two centre halves, a keeper and the jobs a good un? 😎

If Klopp picks him, his place is justified.
Who else does he need to answer to?
You?

He's not in the best of form, we've played half a dozen league games, and you're seriously talking about him "having to justify his place"?

I don't give a f**k about players at other clubs.
The season is a long one full of ups and downs.
Everyone knows this, and yet some have already decided who the league champions are, how we're going to end up mid table, and that we haven't a chance of winning the league.
How did chelsea get on in their first dozen games under Conte?
What happened after that?
The start to a season is no indication of how the whole season will unfold.

Surely every player has to justify his place, just like I have to justify my role within my business. 

I agree there seems to be a lot negative vibes around the club at the moment, we are creating chances just need to start converting them and stop making mistakes at the back. 

I am not Firmino's biggest fan, but as he is a Liverpool Player I will continue to support him.  I do think its a position that could/should be strengthened.

Surely every player has to justify his place, just like I have to justify my role within my business. 

I agree there seems to be a lot negative vibes around the club at the moment, we are creating chances just need to start converting them and stop making mistakes at the back. 

I am not Firmino's biggest fan, but as he is a Liverpool Player I will continue to support him.  I do think its a position that could/should be strengthened.

Yes, they have to justify it to the manager, and as he keeps getting picked, he seems to be doing just that.
Klopp has never been afraid to rest players if they're tired, and has always been pretty open about it.

So, who do these players need to justify themselves to, apart from Klopp?

Yes, they have to justify it to the manager, and as he keeps getting picked, he seems to be doing just that.
Klopp has never been afraid to rest players if they're tired, and has always been pretty open about it.

So, who do these players need to justify themselves to, apart from Klopp?

In theory just Klopp......however was it not Shankly who said that these players play for you....  it's a shame that, that part of the game is long gone.

In theory just Klopp......however was it not Shankly who said that these players play for you....  it's a shame that, that part is long gone.

Have a look in any game thread when we're not winning.
Would you want people that prone to knee jerking making decisions about players?

Shanks said a lot of things, most of which are ignored by forumites, as and when it suits them.

I'm old school; the manager makes the decisions on our behalf, and stands or falls by those decisions.

Then again, during Shanks's trophyless years, many on here would be saying he needs to be sacked.

If Klopp picks him, his place is justified.
Who else does he need to answer to?
You?

He's not in the best of form, we've played half a dozen league games, and you're seriously talking about him "having to justify his place"?

I don't give a f**k about players at other clubs.
The season is a long one full of ups and downs.
Everyone knows this, and yet some have already decided who the league champions are, how we're going to end up mid table, and that we haven't a chance of winning the league.
How did chelsea get on in their first dozen games under Conte?
What happened after that?
The start to a season is no indication of how the whole season will unfold.

That's the point isn't it? How is Firmino justifying his place in the side right now? He isn't scoring and he's not creating chances. Klopp should be picking sides based upon the form of players and unfortunately right now, Firmino's form has escaped him and we're struggling in part as a result of it. Pick someone else who might do better until his form returns. Yes the season has ups and downs and I'm sure Firmino's form will return, in which case when he's given a chance he takes it and retains his place. That's how true competition for places work. That's not how Klopp's managing the side right now.

Lmbo at you having to explain that 😂😂

* Sits back and waits for "Yes but do they run as many kilometres per game?"

So anyhow, all is not lost; what do you reckon... all we have to do is stay in touch until January, buy a striker, two centre halves, a keeper and the jobs a good un? 😎

And a left back mate.

What do you mean we've got a perfectly good one we just don't play him in important games to give the opposition a chance?

I thought that's what strikers, CBs and keeper were for?

F**k these "managers".....

Rafa Kenny Brendan Klopp out

 

That's the point isn't it? How is Firmino justifying his place in the side right now? He isn't scoring and he's not creating chances. Klopp should be picking sides based upon the form of players and unfortunately right now, Firmino's form has escaped him and we're struggling in part as a result of it. Pick someone else who might do better until his form returns. Yes the season has ups and downs and I'm sure Firmino's form will return, in which case when he's given a chance he takes it and retains his place. That's how true competition for places work. That's not how Klopp's managing the side right now.

If you don't have all the information Klopp has, how can you say Firmino isn't justifying his place?
For all you know, he's doing everything Klopp asks of him, and the only negative is his goal return.
Then again, the team is scoring goals, and there's much more to creating goals than assists, which only says who played the final pass to the goalscorer.
I'm sure Klopp knows his players, and what he wants from them far better than any mug on a forum (including me).

To me, Firmino looks a bit tired and leggy, but I don't have access to his training and match stats, showing his heart rate, oxygen saturation in the blood, or indeed his blood work which shows fatigue poisons, so my opinion is basically worthless, because I don't have enough information.

It's the same when people say "he isn't doing his job" when they have no idea what Klopp wants him to do.
Goals are a part of it, sure, but there's a lot more to a players game in Klopp's setup than just goals.

Yet again, people have become fixated on a simplistic explanation of what they think a player should be doing, while having no idea what the manager instructs him to do.

If Klopp picks him, his place is justified.
Who else does he need to answer to?
You?

He's not in the best of form, we've played half a dozen league games, and you're seriously talking about him "having to justify his place"?

I don't give a f**k about players at other clubs.
The season is a long one full of ups and downs.
Everyone knows this, and yet some have already decided who the league champions are, how we're going to end up mid table, and that we haven't a chance of winning the league.
How did chelsea get on in their first dozen games under Conte?
What happened after that?
The start to a season is no indication of how the whole season will unfold.

This is season number three for Roberto Firmino at Liverpool.

In 2015/16, he started 40 games and made 9 sub appearances and he ended up with 11 goals, 11 assists.
In 2016/17, he started 39 games, and he ended with 12 goals and 11 assists.

The only season where he cracked 20 goals in all competitions was in 2013/14.

You might say that you do not care about players in other clubs, but whether you like it or not, that is the standard to whih Firmino is going to be judged; it is always going to be against other players in the same position at other clubs.
It is also funny that you compare Liverpool to Chelsea last season. Antonio Conte adapted when things were not going well for him; he went to a back three that he was comfortable with and by the time the season was coming to an end, he had a top 3 defense, the second best attack in the land, and 16 clean sheets to boot. He had also led Chelsea to the title, and got them to the FA Cup final.

As we speak, only three teams have conceded more goals in the league season i.e. Crystal Palace, Leicester, and West Ham. Everton and Bournemouth have conceded the same amount of goals.

If you were to look at clean sheets, there are two total this season in 9 games. If you are reaching and you want to include the Champions League qualifiers, it is still two clean sheets in 11 games. Now Klopp trusts, or maybe hopes that the defenders will get better, that there will be a decrease in mistakes. I would assume that he also reckons that the goalkeeping department is not too shabby.

I can understand why Klopp keeps picking Firmino; he believes that pressing is the best playmaker any team can have, and he is on record as saying that. That at the end of the day is the system that he has built, and no other forward lends himself more to it that Firmino. Some people complain about the player, but it is a system issue that can only be resolved the moment the manager comes up with another formation that can create for a striker that is not a pressing merchant.

Until that happens, the man who has averaged 11 goals the last three seasons, is the man that leads the line for Liverpool.

This is season number three for Roberto Firmino at Liverpool.

In 2015/16, he started 40 games and made 9 sub appearances and he ended up with 11 goals, 11 assists.
In 2016/17, he started 39 games, and he ended with 12 goals and 11 assists.

The only season where he cracked 20 goals in all competitions was in 2013/14.

You might say that you do not care about players in other clubs, but whether you like it or not, that is the standard to whih Firmino is going to be judged; it is always going to be against other players in the same position at other clubs.
It is also funny that you compare Liverpool to Chelsea last season. Antonio Conte adapted when things were not going well for him; he went to a back three that he was comfortable with and by the time the season was coming to an end, he had a top 3 defense, the second best attack in the land, and 16 clean sheets to boot. He had also led Chelsea to the title, and got them to the FA Cup final.

As we speak, only three teams have conceded more goals in the league season i.e. Crystal Palace, Leicester, and West Ham. Everton and Bournemouth have conceded the same amount of goals.

If you were to look at clean sheets, there are two total this season in 9 games. If you are reaching and you want to include the Champions League qualifiers, it is still two clean sheets in 11 games. Now Klopp trusts, or maybe hopes that the defenders will get better, that there will be a decrease in mistakes. I would assume that he also reckons that the goalkeeping department is not too shabby.

I can understand why Klopp keeps picking Firmino; he believes that pressing is the best playmaker any team can have, and he is on record as saying that. That at the end of the day is the system that he has built, and no other forward lends himself more to it that Firmino. Some people complain about the player, but it is a system issue that can only be resolved the moment the manager comes up with another formation that can create for a striker that is not a pressing merchant.

Until that happens, the man who has averaged 11 goals the last three seasons, is the man that leads the line for Liverpool.

If you think Klopp has him in the team just for his pressing, I'd suggest you are barking up the wrong tree, because he does so much more than that, and is the main reason Salah and Mane find so much space.