Trending Topics

      Next match: LFC v Villa [Premier League] Sat 11th Dec @ 3:00 pm
      Anfield

      Today is the 8th of December and on this date LFC's match record is P20 W10 D2 L8

      Malfunctioning Midfield

      Read 13595 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      Magillionare
      • Official LFC Reds Sig Maker. Lives on Sesame Street.
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 14,918 posts | 2381 
      • Hold on a minute, John Wayne hasn't arrived yet.
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #25: Sep 22, 2017 12:26:07 am
      We can talk changing things all we want, however the facts remain we are yet to field a full strength midfield. I'll wait until we see Hendo, Lallana and Phil before talking about changing formation etc.
      Magillionare
      • Official LFC Reds Sig Maker. Lives on Sesame Street.
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 14,918 posts | 2381 
      • Hold on a minute, John Wayne hasn't arrived yet.
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #26: Sep 22, 2017 12:30:01 am

      So many of those goals are coming from individual errors or goalkeeping ineptitudes. Frightening.
      5timesacharm
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,507 posts | 948 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #27: Sep 22, 2017 01:21:18 am
      We can talk changing things all we want, however the facts remain we are yet to field a full strength midfield. I'll wait until we see Hendo, Lallana and Phil before talking about changing formation etc.

      We fielded a full strength midfield last season and leaked like an old shoe. The midfield is only part of the problem.
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #28: Sep 22, 2017 05:34:29 am
      We can talk changing things all we want, however the facts remain we are yet to field a full strength midfield. I'll wait until we see Hendo, Lallana and Phil before talking about changing formation etc.

      In the meantime, while games are coming thick and fast we'll just carry on losing and dropping points until we can discuss our midfield at full strength - which we know does work more often than not.

      Nah, unfortunately decisions/amendments need to be made now because we'll be out the hunt for anything by the time we get our ideal midfield back.

      Mind you, as indolent as your suggestion is - I bet Klopp carries on flogging that horse to.
      « Last Edit: Sep 22, 2017 05:39:56 am by Beerbelly »
      Magillionare
      • Official LFC Reds Sig Maker. Lives on Sesame Street.
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 14,918 posts | 2381 
      • Hold on a minute, John Wayne hasn't arrived yet.
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #29: Sep 22, 2017 07:27:53 am
      In the meantime, while games are coming thick and fast we'll just carry on losing and dropping points until we can discuss our midfield at full strength - which we know does work more often than not.

      Nah, unfortunately decisions/amendments need to be made now because we'll be out the hunt for anything by the time we get our ideal midfield back.

      Mind you, as indolent as your suggestion is - I bet Klopp carries on flogging that horse to.

      Yes it's all doom and gloom after 2 defeats, let's change everything.

      Not for me.
      bobobobo
      • Forum Ian St John
      • ***

      • 439 posts | 20 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #30: Sep 22, 2017 07:30:11 am
      What about the diamond we played at West Ham last year? We already play narrow and through the middle so would probably benefit from having an extra man in midfield?

                           Karius
      Trent    Matip           Lovren      Moreno

                          Hendo

                  Can              Wijnaldum

                          Coutinho

                  Bobby           Mane


      Can would automatically drop a bit deeper to help Hendo, When Lallana's back thats another 'hard grafter' off the ball to win it back...Trent and Alberto could go forward more and Hendo could hold his position more as a result...we're being walked through because our midfielders can't control a game...so surely if we haven't got good enough players to control it - the best thing we can do is outcrowd the oppositions midfield
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 16,752 posts | 3574 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #31: Sep 22, 2017 07:38:32 am
      What about the diamond we played at West Ham last year? We already play narrow and through the middle so would probably benefit from having an extra man in midfield?

                           Karius
      Trent    Matip           Lovren      Moreno

                          Hendo

                  Can              Wijnaldum

                          Coutinho

                  Bobby           Mane


      Can would automatically drop a bit deeper to help Hendo, When Lallana's back thats another 'hard grafter' off the ball to win it back...Trent and Alberto could go forward more and Hendo could hold his position more as a result...we're being walked through because our midfielders can't control a game...so surely if we haven't got good enough players to control it - the best thing we can do is outcrowd the oppositions midfield

      You would drop Salah?

      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #32: Sep 22, 2017 08:13:59 am
      Yes it's all doom and gloom after 2 defeats, let's change everything.

      Not for me.

      We've been shipping soft goals now for way more than two games.

      It's been starring us in the face for too long just to dismiss, and rightly the midfield has been called into question.
      Magillionare
      • Official LFC Reds Sig Maker. Lives on Sesame Street.
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 14,918 posts | 2381 
      • Hold on a minute, John Wayne hasn't arrived yet.
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #33: Sep 22, 2017 08:16:16 am
      We've been shipping soft goals now for way more than two games.

      It's been starring us in the face for too long just to dismiss, and rightly the midfield has been called into question.


      Valid points mate, however I think the goalkeeper and centre backs come first on my list of things to blame for that.
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #34: Sep 22, 2017 08:19:04 am
      Valid points mate, however I think the goalkeeper and centre backs come first on my list of things to blame for that.

      Ah yes, Mignolet and the shot to goal ratio stat that has also undone Karius and Ward. If it were only that simple eh?

      Of course, we wouldn't want to discuss an ill disciplined midfield in which Henderson's an integral part of, would we.  :f_tongueincheek:
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,547 posts | 3159 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #35: Sep 22, 2017 09:58:14 am
      Which brings me on to thinking even though our defence is a bit gash but how much better would they look with a proper DM giving providing more protection than Hendo is managing at the moment.

      I'm pretty sure that those, who said they know J├╝rgen, also said he doesn't [wouldn't] use a conventional holding/defensive midfielder.

      If that is the case then a call for a "proper" defensive midfielder is really a call for a change to how "J├╝rgen likes to play".

      Is that what we want? I don't know. Anyhows...

      If we believe the midfield is indeed dysfunctional [not saying it's not btw] then a few questions really need asking.

      Given that our midfield, more often than not, dominate possession; logic dictates the problem can not be our passing or ball winning ability. So...

      * Is it not working because it can't hit runners in front? Where are those runners? Who are those runners?

      * Maybe we believe that it isn't working because the players behind are leaking goals and need protection? How good then are defenders/keeper who need constant nursing and protection; especially when a sh*t load, of goals conceded, come when the opposition by-pass our midfield with balls over the top?

      * Again [setting aside people's player bias] the question must be -  is it personnel or the 'stystem' which is dysfunctional?

      * Would (for example) Mignolet/Karius, Moreno, Lovren, Klavan and TAA be a better proposition behind Dier or would you prefer (for example) Henderson and Gini in front of Lloris, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Aurier, Sanchez and Trippier? 🤔

      What we are saying is that, like J├╝rgen, we are sick of sh*te defending and each of us have our own PoV on what's behind that.

      Personally I believe it's down, in the main to the calibre of defender we have, more than any dysfunctional midfield but listen: if you, honestly, believe that dropping, chopping and changing (anyone in the middle) can make our back 5 defend better.... I say go for it. 😊👍
      « Last Edit: Sep 22, 2017 10:39:39 am by bad boy bubby »
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 16,752 posts | 3574 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #36: Sep 22, 2017 10:07:48 am
      I'm pretty sure that those, who said they know J├╝rgen, also said he doesn't [wouldn't] use a conventional holding/defensive midfielder.

      If that is the case then a call for a "proper" defensive midfielder is really a call for a change to how "J├╝rgen likes to play".

      Is that what we want? I don't know. Anyhows...

      If we believe the midfield is indeed dysfunctional [not saying it's not btw] then a few questions really need asking.

      Given that our midfield, more often than not, dominate possession; logic dictates the problem can not be our passing or ball winning ability. So...

      * Is it not working because it can't hit runners in front? Where are those runners? Who are those runners?

      * Maybe we believe that it isn't working because the players behind are leaking goals and need protection? How good then are defenders/keeper who need constant nursing and protection; especially when a sh*t load, of goals conceded, come when the opposition by-pass our midfield with balls over the top?

      * Again [setting aside people's player bias] the question must be -  is it personnel or the 'stystem' which is dysfunctional?

      * Would (for example) Mignolet/Karius, Moreno, Lovren, Klavan and TAA be a better proposition behind Dier or would you prefer (for example) Henderson and Gini in front of Lloris, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Aurier, Sanchez and Trippier? 🤔

      What we are saying is that, like J├╝rgen, we are sick of sh*te defending and each of us have our own PoV on what's behind that.

      Personally I believe it's down, in the main to the calibre of defender we have, more than amy dysfunctional midfield but listen: if you, honestly, believe that dropping, chopping and changing (anyone in the middle) can make our back 5 defend better.... I say go for it. 😊👍

      All his success at Dortmund came with playing Bender or Kehl as the DM's so not sure where people are coming up with the he doesn't play with a DM
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #37: Sep 22, 2017 10:27:22 am
      I'm pretty sure that those, who said they know J├╝rgen, also said he doesn't [wouldn't] use a conventional holding/defensive midfielder.

      If that is the case then a call for a "proper" defensive midfielder is really a call for a change to how "J├╝rgen likes to play".

      Is that what we want? I don't know. Anyhows...

      If we believe the midfield is indeed dysfunctional [not saying it's not btw] then a few questions really need asking.

      Given that our midfield, more often than not, dominate possession; logic dictates the problem can not be our passing or ball winning ability. So...

      * Is it not working because it can't hit runners in front? Where are those runners? Who are those runners?

      * Maybe we believe that it isn't working because the players behind are leaking goals and need protection? How good then are defenders/keeper who need constant nursing and protection; especially when a sh*t load, of goals conceded, come when the opposition by-pass our midfield with balls over the top?

      * Again [setting aside people's player bias] the question must be -  is it personnel or the 'stystem' which is dysfunctional?

      * Would (for example) Mignolet/Karius, Moreno, Lovren, Klavan and TAA be a better proposition behind Dier or would you prefer (for example) Henderson and Gini in front of Lloris, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Aurier, Sanchez and Trippier? 🤔

      What we are saying is that, like J├╝rgen, we are sick of sh*te defending and each of us have our own PoV on what's behind that.

      Personally I believe it's down, in the main to the calibre of defender we have, more than amy dysfunctional midfield but listen: if you, honestly, believe that dropping, chopping and changing (anyone in the middle) can make our back 5 defend better.... I say go for it. 😊👍

      Good post young Bubby.

      Like Mag's and yourself, I think the defence are culpable. And yes, I'd prefer the entire Tottenham back line to one Dier, I think their CB's are very very good.

      However, we're 'stuck' with our back line and keeper for the foreseeable - coaching hasn't worked, buying the right replacements wasn't a goer either.

      So, until we can physically do something about that I think the OP and others in here have made a good case that midfield can offer more protection. After all, this is a team game and at the moment the midfield looks way more geared to support the attack than it does the defence. Klopp's got the personnel and system in midfield to go forward, but I don't think he has the same going backwards, which is why I think it's unbalanced.

      Our defence is that hapless that it does need 'constant nursing and protection'; even great defences get adequate protection yet our midfield seems a bit soft in the centre. We can't do much about the defence, maybe tweaking the midfield to support it more is a much more viable alternative than simply wishing our defensive inabilities away.
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #38: Sep 22, 2017 10:29:31 am
      All his success at Dortmund came with playing Bender or Kehl as the DM's so not sure where people are coming up with the he doesn't play with a DM

      I don't know but what I do know is that has been pontificated on here quite regularly.
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 16,752 posts | 3574 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #39: Sep 22, 2017 10:39:15 am
      I don't know but what I do know is that has been pontificated on here quite regularly.

      No idea why because Henderson has been playing that role for us, admittedly not as a traditional DM like Kante who is a pure destroyer.

      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,547 posts | 3159 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #40: Sep 22, 2017 10:43:57 am
      All his success at Dortmund came with playing Bender or Kehl as the DM's so not sure where people are coming up with the he doesn't play with a DM
      Aye.

      I've written a number of posts highlighting that truth...[that and an out and out striker 😉]. I am glad I'm not alone.

      Doesn't change my opinion on the standard of our defenders (the topic in hand) by the way but yes... 👍
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,077 posts | 2766 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #41: Sep 22, 2017 10:46:16 am
      Good post young Bubby.

      Like Mag's and yourself, I think the defence are culpable. And yes, I'd prefer the entire Tottenham back line to one Dier, I think their CB's are very very good.

      However, we're 'stuck' with our back line and keeper for the foreseeable - coaching hasn't worked , buying the right replacements wasn't a goer either.

      So, until we can physically do something about that I think the OP and others in here have made a good case that midfield can offer more protection. After all, this is a team game and at the moment the midfield looks way more geared to support the attack than it does the defence. Klopp's got the personnel and system in midfield to go forward, but I don't think he has the same going backwards, which is why I think it's unbalanced.

      Our defence is that hapless that it does need 'constant nursing and protection'; even great defences get adequate protection yet our midfield seems a bit soft in the centre. We can't do much about the defence, maybe tweaking the midfield to support it more is a much more viable alternative than simply wishing our defensive inabilities away.


      That's a point, whatever did happen to that "he prefers to work with players and improve them on the training pitch" stuff? You don't hear that bandied about so much these days. That and that game where you say who you're going to pass to before the bloke has passed to you, that doesn't get talked about anywhere near so much these days. Similarly "doesn't do big money signings, look at his record", and "Pep Ljinders" in any form at all. Neither does that bloke who was the fitness fella at Bayern Munich who was going to stop all injuries, stuff just comes in and out of fashion like a flash on here.
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,547 posts | 3159 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #42: Sep 22, 2017 10:53:52 am
      Henderson has been playing that role for us, admittedly not as a traditional DM

      So he hasn't been playing that role then... BvB  4 - 2 - 3 - 1 LFC 4 - 3 - 3. Its been discussed quite a bit mate.

      You pays your money, you takes your choice.

      Like I said; drop Hendo (and play x,y, or z) or change a dysfunctional system or start spending money on better defenders, I honestly couldn't give a f**k as long as it works. 👍
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 16,752 posts | 3574 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #43: Sep 22, 2017 11:00:29 am
      So he hasn't been playing that role then... BvB  4 - 2 - 3 - 1 LFC 4 - 3 - 3. Its been discussed quite a bit mate.

      You pays your money, you takes your choice.

      Like I said; drop Hendo (and play x,y, or z) or change a dysfunctional system or start spending money on better defenders, I honestly couldn't give a f**k as long as it works. 👍
      .

      It's all semantics mate the deepest midfielder is the DM.
      It's just that you have different type of players in that role from Pirlo, Busquets, etc to Matic, Kante

      I like to keep things simple.

      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,547 posts | 3159 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #44: Sep 22, 2017 11:04:14 am
      .

      It's all semantics mate the deepest midfielder is the DM.
      It's just that you have different type of players in that role from Pirlo, Busquets, etc to Matic, Kante

      I like to keep things simple.


      Keeping it simple then:

      Saying as you introduced it [the two] and the term "proper DM" by the way - Would you like to see J├╝rgen revert to the 4 - 2 - 3 - 1 he used at BvB?
      billythered
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 8,435 posts | 3368 
      • From Doubters to Champions of the World
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #45: Sep 22, 2017 11:10:51 am
      I'm pretty sure that those, who said they know J├╝rgen, also said he doesn't [wouldn't] use a conventional holding/defensive midfielder.

      If that is the case then a call for a "proper" defensive midfielder is really a call for a change to how "J├╝rgen likes to play".

      Is that what we want? I don't know. Anyhows...

      If we believe the midfield is indeed dysfunctional [not saying it's not btw] then a few questions really need asking.

      Given that our midfield, more often than not, dominate possession; logic dictates the problem can not be our passing or ball winning ability. So...

      * Is it not working because it can't hit runners in front? Where are those runners? Who are those runners?

      * Maybe we believe that it isn't working because the players behind are leaking goals and need protection? How good then are defenders/keeper who need constant nursing and protection; especially when a sh*t load, of goals conceded, come when the opposition by-pass our midfield with balls over the top?

      * Again [setting aside people's player bias] the question must be -  is it personnel or the 'stystem' which is dysfunctional?

      * Would (for example) Mignolet/Karius, Moreno, Lovren, Klavan and TAA be a better proposition behind Dier or would you prefer (for example) Henderson and Gini in front of Lloris, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Aurier, Sanchez and Trippier? 🤔

      What we are saying is that, like J├╝rgen, we are sick of sh*te defending and each of us have our own PoV on what's behind that.

      Personally I believe it's down, in the main to the calibre of defender we have, more than any dysfunctional midfield but listen: if you, honestly, believe that dropping, chopping and changing (anyone in the middle) can make our back 5 defend better.... I say go for it. 😊👍

      Been saying it for far too long mate, put it simply our midfield are just not good enough for the system J├╝rgen wants to use, Can is a good player we've all seen what he's capable of, sadly tho its not too often,
      Henderson was at his best in a Rodgers level side but thats a far cry from the levels Klopp wants hence he being consistently out of his depth,
      Wijnaldom again is inconsistent however he's a player who can play in a Klopp system if surrounded by better players,
      AOC,
      Too early just yet to pass judgement tbf on him but it remains to be seen whether J├╝rgen can prise more out of him than Wenger did, but I'd say he's unlikely to pull up any trees but you never know?

      With Naby next season id love it if Klopp brought in Julien Weigl as our DM, hopefully he'd have either finally gotten Van Dijk, Hummels or both(wishful thinking)
      And then just maybe we'll start seeing the team that Klopp would be happy with, right now though I think he's starting to lose patience and is realising that he just can't polish the turds any brighter !


      YNWA
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,547 posts | 3159 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #46: Sep 22, 2017 11:27:10 am
      Henderson was at his best in a Rodgers level side
      Jaysus Billy... what does that mean; Rodgers "level" was somehow lower?

      You'd need to be careful there mate because most stats are unlikely to support that assertion.

      It's easy to blame Hendo; I get that. He's a lot of folks least favourite player but the truth is (again backed by stats) - a Klopp team is more successful with Jordan in than out. Still not as successful as a Rodgers team mind you but anyway... I digress. Maybe that is why J├╝rgen always picks him?

      A change to system rather than personnel then? 🤔

      Listen: I understand why an awful lot of you believe J├╝rgen has got it wrong defensively  - the results tend to prove that. Heck I even agree things need fixing but where we differ is that I believe his f**k up is by not buying better defenders - remembering that he did actually bring in a keeper, two centre backs and, eventually, a left back; spending under ┬ú20m total.

      A lot blame the midfield and Hendo in particular - I don't. I can agree to disagree. 😎

      « Last Edit: Sep 22, 2017 11:35:26 am by bad boy bubby »
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,077 posts | 2766 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #47: Sep 22, 2017 11:57:42 am
      On the subject of managerial stats, how are we standing at the moment Rodgers v Klopp. I know J├╝rgen pulled clear last season, it's probably closer now?

      DISCLAIMER: I'm simply curious, I'm happy to have J├╝rgen, don't want Brendan back etc etc.
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #48: Sep 22, 2017 12:03:15 pm
      On the subject of managerial stats, how are we standing at the moment Rodgers v Klopp. I know J├╝rgen pulled clear last season, it's probably closer now?

      DISCLAIMER: I'm simply curious, I'm happy to have J├╝rgen, don't want Brendan back etc etc.

      DISCLAIMER: By showing these stats it does not mean I want rid of J├╝rgen and Rodgers back. you need to do that around here



      http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/jurgen-klopps-liverpool-record-worse-11205510

      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 8,723 posts | 2756 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #49: Sep 22, 2017 12:03:29 pm
      So he hasn't been playing that role then... BvB  4 - 2 - 3 - 1 LFC 4 - 3 - 3. Its been discussed quite a bit mate.

      You pays your money, you takes your choice.

      Like I said; drop Hendo (and play x,y, or z) or change a dysfunctional system or start spending money on better defenders, I honestly couldn't give a f**k as long as it works. 👍

      Unless he's lying - and he might well be if some are to be believed......re the CB videos - the most salient point of the midfield  vs defence debate comes from J├╝rgen.

      He has stated more than once that a CDM wouldn't stop the goals we're conceding and, to that end, sold the nearest we have to that in the summer in Lucas.

      For me it's pretty straightforward.......th e defence as a whole isn't good enough. At top level the unit  is positionally irresponsible, lacks cohesion and is short of top level concentration.

      The midfield can do more but EVEN with Bender, Kehl, Kanye, Makalele etc etc.......we'd still be pissing vinegar about the goals we're losing in my humble blah blah blah 😱

      Quick Reply