Trending Topics

      Next match: LFC v Brighton [Premier League] Sun 31st Mar @ 2:00 pm
      Anfield

      Today is the 28th of March and on this date LFC's match record is P26 W11 D3 L12

      Malfunctioning Midfield

      Read 54718 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,564 posts | 3172 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #46: Sep 22, 2017 11:27:10 am
      Henderson was at his best in a Rodgers level side
      Jaysus Billy... what does that mean; Rodgers "level" was somehow lower?

      You'd need to be careful there mate because most stats are unlikely to support that assertion.

      It's easy to blame Hendo; I get that. He's a lot of folks least favourite player but the truth is (again backed by stats) - a Klopp team is more successful with Jordan in than out. Still not as successful as a Rodgers team mind you but anyway... I digress. Maybe that is why Jürgen always picks him?

      A change to system rather than personnel then? 🤔

      Listen: I understand why an awful lot of you believe Jürgen has got it wrong defensively  - the results tend to prove that. Heck I even agree things need fixing but where we differ is that I believe his F**k up is by not buying better defenders - remembering that he did actually bring in a keeper, two centre backs and, eventually, a left back; spending under £20m total.

      A lot blame the midfield and Hendo in particular - I don't. I can agree to disagree. 😎

      « Last Edit: Sep 22, 2017 11:35:26 am by bad boy bubby »
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,078 posts | 2767 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #47: Sep 22, 2017 11:57:42 am
      On the subject of managerial stats, how are we standing at the moment Rodgers v Klopp. I know Jürgen pulled clear last season, it's probably closer now?

      DISCLAIMER: I'm simply curious, I'm happy to have Jürgen, don't want Brendan back etc etc.
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #48: Sep 22, 2017 12:03:15 pm
      On the subject of managerial stats, how are we standing at the moment Rodgers v Klopp. I know Jürgen pulled clear last season, it's probably closer now?

      DISCLAIMER: I'm simply curious, I'm happy to have Jürgen, don't want Brendan back etc etc.

      DISCLAIMER: By showing these stats it does not mean I want rid of Jürgen and Rodgers back. you need to do that around here



      http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/Jürgen-klopps-liverpool-record-worse-11205510

      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 8,965 posts | 3047 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #49: Sep 22, 2017 12:03:29 pm
      So he hasn't been playing that role then... BvB  4 - 2 - 3 - 1 LFC 4 - 3 - 3. Its been discussed quite a bit mate.

      You pays your money, you takes your choice.

      Like I said; drop Hendo (and play x,y, or z) or change a dysfunctional system or start spending money on better defenders, I honestly couldn't give a f**k as long as it works. 👍

      Unless he's lying - and he might well be if some are to be believed......re the CB videos - the most salient point of the midfield  vs defence debate comes from Jürgen.

      He has stated more than once that a CDM wouldn't stop the goals we're conceding and, to that end, sold the nearest we have to that in the summer in Lucas.

      For me it's pretty straightforward.......th e defence as a whole isn't good enough. At top level the unit  is positionally irresponsible, lacks cohesion and is short of top level concentration.

      The midfield can do more but EVEN with Bender, Kehl, Kanye, Makalele etc etc.......we'd still be pissing vinegar about the goals we're losing in my humble blah blah blah 😱
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,078 posts | 2767 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #50: Sep 22, 2017 12:15:38 pm
      DISCLAIMER: By showing these stats it does not mean I want rid of Jürgen and Rodgers back. you need to do that around here



      http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/Jürgen-klopps-liverpool-record-worse-11205510



      Since the crew aren't around, I'll answer for them:

      "Ah but Rodgers had Suarez FFS!".

      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 20,172 posts | 4401 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #51: Sep 22, 2017 12:18:01 pm
      Keeping it simple then:

      Saying as you introduced it [the two] and the term "proper DM" by the way - Would you like to see Jürgen revert to the 4 - 2 - 3 - 1 he used at BvB?

      Would I like to see him going back to 4231?

      Always pro's and con's in that 433 is more attacking so easier on the eye but also can leave you more vulnerable.

      4231, the front 4 are easy Bobby, Salah, Mane and Coutinho as the No10.
      So a ball playing midfielder Lallana? next to a more defensive mid - and here is my problem even with the 433.
      We just don't have that player, Can I think was the hope but he just doesn't have the discipline.

      Hendo has been used as a DLPM for his long range passing to unleash the flying Mane and Salah but he doesn't have the defensive instincts.His short range passing is also a bit gash.
      Certainly a shout that he is not getting much support from Can at least.

      So simple answer is I don't know  :D




      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 20,172 posts | 4401 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #52: Sep 22, 2017 12:24:38 pm
      Unless he's lying - and he might well be if some are to be believed......re the CB videos - the most salient point of the midfield  vs defence debate comes from Jürgen.

      He has stated more than once that a CDM wouldn't stop the goals we're conceding and, to that end, sold the nearest we have to that in the summer in Lucas.

      For me it's pretty straightforward.......th e defence as a whole isn't good enough. At top level the unit  is positionally irresponsible, lacks cohesion and is short of top level concentration.

      The midfield can do more but EVEN with Bender, Kehl, Kanye, Makalele etc etc.......we'd still be pissing vinegar about the goals we're losing in my humble blah blah blah 😱

      Not sure mate all our CB's have looked much better at they're previous clubs.
      Lovren
      Matip
      Klavan

      The big difference being the protection they received.

      So if Jürgen wants to play such a high risk game he needs defenders like those at Spurs, I know he tried to sign VVD.
      If he doesn't want to splash the cash then the back 4 need more protection, which incidentally is not just parking 2 lumps in front of the front 4 it also means both fullbacks don't need to be stationed in the opposition half constantly.
      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 8,965 posts | 3047 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #53: Sep 22, 2017 12:25:16 pm
      Since the crew aren't around, I'll answer for them:

      "Ah but Rodgers had Suarez FFS!".



      And Gerrard, ah but....

      "he was surviving on reputation alone and should have lost the armband and been an impact sub only at that stage......"

       :f_tongueincheek:
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 20,172 posts | 4401 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #54: Sep 22, 2017 12:25:52 pm
      Since the crew aren't around, I'll answer for them:

      "Ah but Rodgers had Suarez FFS!".



      Right answer but also a firing Sturridge    ;D
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,078 posts | 2767 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #55: Sep 22, 2017 12:33:23 pm
      And Gerrard, ah but....

      "he was surviving on reputation alone and should have lost the armband and been an impact sub only at that stage......"

       :f_tongueincheek:

      Yes Gerard's status has been elevated beyond belief during those years. Rodgers has gone from being "too intimidated to sit Gerrard on the bench" to being lucky to have had the Worlds best midfielder. How times change ;D.

      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,078 posts | 2767 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #56: Sep 22, 2017 12:34:17 pm
      Right answer but also that he picked [/] a firing Sturridge    ;D


      Fixed it for you mate.

      5timesacharm
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,507 posts | 948 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #57: Sep 22, 2017 01:00:31 pm
      Not sure mate all our CB's have looked much better at they're previous clubs.
      Lovren
      Matip
      Klavan

      The big difference being the protection they received.

      So if Jürgen wants to play such a high risk game he needs defenders like those at Spurs, I know he tried to sign VVD.
      If he doesn't want to splash the cash then the back 4 need more protection, which incidentally is not just parking 2 lumps in front of the front 4 it also means both fullbacks don't need to be stationed in the opposition half constantly.

      Because none of the clubs they played at played remotely like we do, which is why I'm sceptical about Van Dyke (albeit I got caught up in the hysteria as much as the next man). Perhaps spending £75 million isn't the answer, and signing a CB from a club that plays similar to us is.
      Kopite78
      • Guest
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #58: Sep 22, 2017 01:55:35 pm
      On the subject of managerial stats, how are we standing at the moment Rodgers v Klopp. I know Jürgen pulled clear last season, it's probably closer now?

      DISCLAIMER: I'm simply curious, I'm happy to have Jürgen, don't want Brendan back etc etc.

      What does it matter?
      MIRO
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 12,989 posts | 3124 
      • Trust The Universe
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #59: Sep 22, 2017 02:01:04 pm
      Apart from a few seasons ago the last time we finished 2nd was in 08/09 when we lost 2 games all season!*
      I'll repeat that, 2 games all season!
      and what midfield did we have?
      Gerrard,Kuyt,Mascherano,Alonso even Lucas and Benayoun.


      Irreplaceable .

      billythered
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 10,821 posts | 4920 
      • From Doubters to Champions of the World
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #60: Sep 22, 2017 02:12:41 pm
      Jaysus Billy... what does that mean; Rodgers "level" was somehow lower?

      You'd need to be careful there mate because most stats are unlikely to support that assertion.

      It's easy to blame Hendo; I get that. He's a lot of folks least favourite player but the truth is (again backed by stats) - a Klopp team is more successful with Jordan in than out. Still not as successful as a Rodgers team mind you but anyway... I digress. Maybe that is why Jürgen always picks him?

      A change to system rather than personnel then? 🤔

      Listen: I understand why an awful lot of you believe Jürgen has got it wrong defensively  - the results tend to prove that. Heck I even agree things need fixing but where we differ is that I believe his f**k up is by not buying better defenders - remembering that he did actually bring in a keeper, two centre backs and, eventually, a left back; spending under £20m total.

      A lot blame the midfield and Hendo in particular - I don't. I can agree to disagree. 😎




      Guess what I'm trying to get across is Henderson has reached his level and wont necessary get any better, but its 'better' is what we need, Henderson has had some standout performances but they are few and far between and i dont know but maybe those better performances were without the armband,

      Jürgen always picks him cos he's skipper and probably more importantly there's no one else he trusts in that position,

      I think we have definitely improved under Jurgens's tutelage playing a style of football we're all enjoying,
      Brendan gave us a nearly season with the help of one or two world class individuals in Gerrard & Suarez, with Klopp,
      Two finals have been reached and of course qualification into the holy grail CL,

      The level and ambitions are higher under Klopp and finally (possibly) the financial backing is too, but are the player's we have now really the players to take us up a level? Some are some aren't imo, and like most i dont think Henderson is one of them sadly .

      YNWA
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,000 posts | 1991 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #61: Sep 22, 2017 02:13:23 pm
      Unless he's lying - and he might well be if some are to be believed......re the CB videos - the most salient point of the midfield  vs defence debate comes from Jürgen.

      He has stated more than once that a CDM wouldn't stop the goals we're conceding and, to that end, sold the nearest we have to that in the summer in Lucas.

      For me it's pretty straightforward.......th e defence as a whole isn't good enough. At top level the unit  is positionally irresponsible, lacks cohesion and is short of top level concentration.

      The midfield can do more but EVEN with Bender, Kehl, Kanye, Makalele etc etc.......we'd still be pissing vinegar about the goals we're losing in my humble blah blah blah 😱

      Did we not improve defensively from open play when Lucas had limited run of playtimes in the #6 role last 2 seasons under Klopp? Imagine if we had Masch, Kante, Makelele, Senna, Hamann etc, or perhaps even defense minded DLPM's such as Alonso, Kroos, Schweinsteiger etc. I bet my life we would improve drastically defensively in open play, and of course possession based football without Coutinho!
      « Last Edit: Sep 22, 2017 02:18:52 pm by PurpleMonkey »
      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 8,965 posts | 3047 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #62: Sep 22, 2017 04:11:45 pm
      Did we not improve defensively from open play when Lucas had limited run of playtimes in the #6 role last 2 seasons under Klopp? Imagine if we had Masch, Kante, Makelele, Senna, Hamann etc, or perhaps even defense minded DLPM's such as Alonso, Kroos, Schweinsteiger etc. I bet my life we would improve drastically defensively in open play, and of course possession based football without Coutinho!


      Then you know better than Jürgen mate (and indeed you might) because he says it wouldn't.

      My point is more general - even if you think the midfield could/should protect more that's still an indictment of the defence no matter how you look at it.
      Danzel
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,305 posts | 1113 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #63: Sep 22, 2017 04:33:37 pm
      Then you know better than Jürgen mate (and indeed you might) because he says it wouldn't.

      My point is more general - even if you think the midfield could/should protect more that's still an indictment of the defence no matter how you look at it.

      Not necessarily I think. Look at United and Matic / Pogba. Chelsea and Kante / Bakayoko (or last season Matic), Spurs and a combination of Dier / Wanyama / Dembele. Would you say their defence having / needing that kind of protection is an indictment of their defence? How would their defenders look when playing in our system? In these cases, does the midfield make the defence look very good / better than it is? Or is all just the quality of their defenders (not denying that they do have a few quality CB's)? Any defence needs protection, either in the form of defensive minded players in front of them or a system (City) that prevents teams coming at them with full force.

      The only top team not offering as much protection to their defence and playing a similar system (domination and pressing wise, not formation wise) to ours, is City and they seem to be doing fine (most of the time)? Is that because of the huge quality of their defence? (Stones? Otamendi? Walker? Danilo?) Or is it because the players in front of the defence actually are able to do what Guardiola wants them do and in doing so don't constantly expose their defence like our midfield is currently doing to our defence?

      For me it's still more a personnel issue, mainly in midfield at the moment, than it is a system issue. The system works perfectly fine when everyone does the job he's supposed to do. When one player decides to be lazy, the whole thing falls to pieces. I'll say it again and I agree with Klopp in that aspect, the way we play and the way our midfields works right now (not saying he might not change it in the future and play with a #6) bringing in a #6 wouldn't change anything to the goals we concede. Henderson indeed isn't a 'DM', but I stand by it, he is not the issue at all. He has looked very, very good there when the other two midfields are doing their jobs.

      I'm actually going to try and look at last season and how much a difference (if any difference at all) playing Klopp's preferred midfield (Wijnaldum, Henderson, Lallana) made to whenever one of the three wasn't available (both Lallana and Henderson were out for big parts of the season). Both to goals made and goals conceded.
      « Last Edit: Sep 22, 2017 04:44:58 pm by Danzel »
      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 8,965 posts | 3047 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #64: Sep 22, 2017 04:58:22 pm
      Not necessarily I think. Look at United and Matic / Pogba. Chelsea and Kante / Bakayoko (or last season Matic), Spurs and a combination of Dier / Wanyama / Dembele. Would you say their defence having / needing that kind of protection is an indictment of their defence? How would their defenders look when playing in our system? In these cases, does the midfield make the defence look very good / better than it is? Or is all just the quality of their defenders (not denying that they do have a few quality CB's)? Any defence needs protection, either in the form of defensive minded players in front of them or a system (City) that prevents teams coming at them with full force.

      The only top team not offering as much protection to their defence and playing a similar system (domination and pressing wise, not formation wise) to ours, is City and they seem to be doing fine (most of the time)? Is that because of the huge quality of their defence? (Stones? Otamendi? Walker? Danilo?) Or is it because the players in front of the defence actually are able to do what Guardiola wants them do and in doing so don't constantly expose their defence like our midfield is currently doing to our defence?

      For me it's still more a personnel issue, mainly in midfield at the moment, than it is a system issue. The system works perfectly fine when everyone does the job he's supposed to do. When one player decides to be lazy, the whole thing falls to pieces. I'll say it again and I agree with Klopp in that aspect, the way we play and the way our midfields works right now (not saying he might not change it in the future and play with a #6) bringing in a #6 wouldn't change anything to the goals we concede. Henderson indeed isn't a 'DM', but I stand by it, he is not the issue at all. He has looked very, very good there when the other two midfields are doing their jobs.

      I'm actually going to try and look at last season and how much a difference (if any difference at all) playing Klopp's preferred midfield (Wijnaldum, Henderson, Lallana) made to whenever one of the three wasn't available (both Lallana and Henderson were out for big parts of the season). Both to goals made and goals conceded.

      Each to their own Danz - I wasn't debating the merits of a DM personally. I have two simple points: -

      1) Jürgen doesn't agree re a DM.

      2) The defence ISN'T good enough.

      They're both a matter of record not opinion.

      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,078 posts | 2767 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #65: Sep 22, 2017 05:00:33 pm

      Does any of it "matter" mate? Not really, I was genuinely just curious. It doesn't prove a thing, I was just interested.

      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 20,172 posts | 4401 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #66: Sep 22, 2017 05:04:52 pm
      Each to their own Danz - I wasn't debating the merits of a DM personally. I have two simple points: -

      1) Jürgen doesn't agree re a DM.

      2) The defence ISN'T good enough.

      They're both a matter of record not opinion.



      Any quotes from Jürgen when he has said he doesn't agree with a DM?
      Magillionare
      • Official LFC Reds Sig Maker. Lives on Sesame Street.
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 14,918 posts | 2381 
      • Hold on a minute, John Wayne hasn't arrived yet.
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #67: Sep 22, 2017 05:06:48 pm
      Ah yes, Mignolet and the shot to goal ratio stat that has also undone Karius and Ward. If it were only that simple eh?

      Of course, we wouldn't want to discuss an ill disciplined midfield in which Henderson's an integral part of, would we.  :f_tongueincheek:

      It's not just the shots to goal ratio. It's the passing game, ability to catch and savible shots he constantly misses.

      Ha yea, you know me. Look I'm well aware he has flaws but just don't see him as the go to weakness in the team at all.
      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 8,965 posts | 3047 
      Re: Malfunctioning Midfield
      Reply #68: Sep 22, 2017 05:09:24 pm
      Any quotes from Jürgen when he has said he doesn't agree with a DM?

      C'mon mate - honestly can't be arsed digging round cos it's not long ago. In the last few weeks (possibly between Watford and Hoff away) he was asked about signing one and said that he didn't believe the goals we're conceding would be helped by a DM.

      Note - and maybe I could've made this clearer - he didn't say he disagreed with DMs per se. Just that wasn't the cause of our defensive pishiness....

      Quick Reply