We need to talk about Henderson...

I am not the troll here, I watched Henderson play.
My evidence is the amount of fanbase that agree with me, not numbers you pull of Squawka that don't mean much, as Luke pointed out.
Enjoy being the minority on this, calling people troll and mentally challenged because they don't agree with you.
Just consider, what reputation are you giving yourself with your attitude?

Please, don't you lecture me on reputation. I'm sure I'll be just fine especially if we're using you as a measuring stick.

Say stats don't matter all you want but they are literally what has happened in a game, it's a more accurate recollection than your memory as it's a detailed account over 90 minutes not just the things you've decided matter. Not just every groan you had for a sideways pass and every time you ignore a key ball, but every sideways pass and key ball. They don't mask up anything, but the opposite a players statistics unmask their performance in a minute by minute, pass by pass detailed account... But yea, they don't matter because you know what you saw and this is one big conspiracy. Like I said earlier, you think personal opinion is the most important thing, I respect that... However my opinion should weigh as much as anyones and I also have statistics to back up my claims. You've made your claims... Can you back them up?

Try and find me a single player rated highly by you that doesn't have the stats to back it up. You won't be able to, and there's a reason for that. Saying they mean nothing is an admission that your bark is bigger than your bite. Prove what you're saying and show some substance in your posts for once.

That's not the way we play though, pressing usually means staying on your feet, only Moreno tends to go to ground (Can sometimes too) but that's usually due to them being out of position.

He did pass the ball from side to side against United, however that doesn't mean that anyone else was free. Mourinho made it very hard to cut through, I do wish Henderson was a little more decisive sometimes and went for a riskier pass more often... However once again, he did make 4 key passes for us which sparked an attack which no one seems to comment on. That's more than everyone else in the team bar Firmino. Every time Salah looked promising, look who's found him in space. Gini started 1 attacking move with a pass and Emre started 0.

I'm not saying he doesn't pass the ball sideways ever, I'm just saying it's not all he does and for some reason we're just literally ignoring the evidence. Look below:



What we see is a mixture of sideways passes, forward passes, and rarely backwards passes. In yellow are key passes (the ones I was talking about earlier.)

I'm not ignoring the sideways passes, so I urge everyone to stop pretending that's all they see and actually look, especially at when he pushes forward after the half way line. Like I said, when deep he gives the simple ball to our 'creative players' but when pushed forward he does make chances and he does start attacks. Salah had a very good game as did Gomez, can everyone see how many times Henderson gave the ball over to that wing? No coincidence that.

Mate, i have been full of praise for Henderson in the past. But i honestly feel baring that spell of good form before his injury he hasn't been the player we need in Midfield.

I hope he proves me wrong i really do, but i can't see it happening.

Try and find me a single player rated highly by you that doesn't have the stats to back it up.

Your earlier response to Luke when he debated your Hendo stats.

Good arguments in here mate, and I do agree, our system does lend to some of these.

Now you have U-Turned. I give up debating with you, U turners are impossible to debate anything with.

'm not saying he doesn't pass the ball sideways ever, I'm just saying it's not all he does and for some reason we're just literally ignoring the evidence. Look below:

That doesn't look too bad... but I don't think that's the Man United game is it?

Fair enough though (assume it was Arsenal btw) maybe he does it have it in his locker - but does he produce it consistently enough?

I think, behind the scenes, when the manager was criticising team defending in the last month I think he was including Henderson in the thrust of that and that is why in recent weeks he has been even more reticent to run into those spaces in front of him. 

If that's the case, and many different managers have backed him, then he clearly does respond to what a manager asks him to do. 

And irrespective of all of our opinions on him we really shouldn't be relying on the deepest of the 6 non-defenders to be responsible for our goal threat. 

We should be scoring goals without key input from him - I'm sure that's a point that can be agreed on, maybe?

That doesn't look too bad... but I don't think that's the Man United game is it?

Fair enough though (assume it was Arsenal btw) maybe he does it have it in his locker - but does he produce it consistently enough?

I think, behind the scenes, when the manager was criticising team defending in the last month I think he was including Henderson in the thrust of that and that is why in recent weeks he has been even more reticent to run into those spaces in front of him. 

If that's the case, and many different managers have backed him, then he clearly does respond to what a manager asks him to do. 

And irrespective of all of our opinions on him we really shouldn't be relying on the deepest of the 6 non-defenders to be responsible for our goal threat. 

We should be scoring goals without key input from him - I'm sure that's a point that can be agreed on, maybe?

Agree on the last point for sure.

Also, it was the United game, here's the link below, you can also compare that to the other players on the pitch. Lukaku's is my personal favourite.

http://epl.squawka.com/english-premier-league/14-10-2017/liverpool-vs-man-utd/matches

Like I've said in the past, I do sometimes feel like I'm watching a different game. I really noticed that against United he was pushing forward and making key passes (along with sideways), but all everyone on here was commenting on was sideways, sideways sideways... Glad to see I'm not losing my mind (not fully anyway).

Your earlier response to Luke when he debated your Hendo stats.

Now you have U-Turned. I give up debating with you, U turners are impossible to debate anything with.

Do you know what the word 'some' means? You give up because you're incapable. This happens every time we have a 'debate', you always give up because you don't have it in you to prove me wrong. Like I said, just once show some substance.

Mate, i have been full of praise for Henderson in the past. But i honestly feel baring that spell of good form before his injury he hasn't been the player we need in Midfield.

I hope he proves me wrong i really do, but i can't see it happening.

Fair enough mate. In tonights game, really pay attention to his positioning, use of verbal cues for our full backs and also when he chooses to pass forward. I've started doing that a lot more and my opinion of him just grows with each game... Now watch him have a stinker tonight after saying all this 

Fair enough mate. In tonights game, really pay attention to his positioning, use of verbal cues for our full backs and also when he chooses to pass forward. I've started doing that a lot more and my opinion of him just grows with each game... Now watch him have a stinker tonight after saying all this 

I will, but it looks like it isn't on TV .

Not sure no one is incorrect, double negative, it should be not sure anyone.

Language is fluid, rules change and comprehension is far more important than your petty grammar issues. I'm sure that not one person, other than you, will care.

That's not the way we play though, pressing usually means staying on your feet, only Moreno tends to go to ground (Can sometimes too) but that's usually due to them being out of position.

He did pass the ball from side to side against United, however that doesn't mean that anyone else was free. Mourinho made it very hard to cut through, I do wish Henderson was a little more decisive sometimes and went for a riskier pass more often... However once again, he did make 4 key passes for us which sparked an attack which no one seems to comment on. That's more than everyone else in the team bar Firmino. Every time Salah looked promising, look who's found him in space. Gini started 1 attacking move with a pass and Emre started 0.

I'm not saying he doesn't pass the ball sideways ever, I'm just saying it's not all he does and for some reason we're just literally ignoring the evidence. Look below:



What we see is a mixture of sideways passes, forward passes, and rarely backwards passes. In yellow are key passes (the ones I was talking about earlier.)

I'm not ignoring the sideways passes, so I urge everyone to stop pretending that's all they see and actually look, especially at when he pushes forward after the half way line. Like I said, when deep he gives the simple ball to our 'creative players' but when pushed forward he does make chances and he does start attacks. Salah had a very good game as did Gomez, can everyone see how many times Henderson gave the ball over to that wing? No coincidence that.

Interesting that you missed out the failed passes - of which there were 11 which were all long attacking passes.

So the stats show:-

4 key passes

11 failed passes

And the majority of the remainder are sideways passes as I see it from that diagram with an equal proportion of backwards or forwards passes in the minority

Interesting that you missed out the failed passes - of which there were 11 which were all long attacking passes.

So the stats show:-

4 key passes

11 failed passes

And the majority of the remainder are sideways passes as I see it from that diagram with an equal proportion of backwards or forwards passes in the minority

Yea I didn't add them in, was going to use them to show he does attempt longer passes however thought it would be better to focus on completed passes rather than attempted.

And yes there are more sideways than forwards... I've not been arguing that what I have been saying is that there are still an awful lot of forward passes in there with hardly any backwards.

Not sure no one is incorrect, double negative, it should be not sure anyone.

Incorrect, in this case 'no one' is treated as a collective pronoun due to the context of the original post talking about 'no one' seeming to care. In the same say 'everyone' can be treated as a collective pronoun, so must 'no one'.

But yea, keep trying troll.

Yea I didn't add them in, was going to use them to show he does attempt longer passes however thought it would be better to focus on completed passes rather than attempted.

And yes there are more sideways than forwards... I've not been arguing that what I have been saying is that there are still an awful lot of forward passes in there with hardly any backwards.

Or maybe you just left them out because you want your lord Jesus Henderson to look better than he really is

better to focus on completed passes rather than attempted.

Typical Hendite.

Or maybe you just left them out because you want your lord Jesus Henderson to look better than he really is

He's dug himself in a hole there, there is no way around it. He goes on about stats then uses them to paint a false picture by being selective over the statistics.

Or maybe you just left them out because you want your lord Jesus Henderson to look better than he really is

Lord Jesus Henderson Christ?

So that is what the H stands for.

Lord Jesus Henderson Christ?

So that is what the H stands for.

If so, I found a pic of mags

Or maybe you just left them out because you want your lord Jesus Henderson to look better than he really is

Yes, my Lord Jesus Henderson. You've foiled me.

Like I said, the missed passes are all long balls, which only further prove my point of he doesn't just pass sideways. I thought using the missed passes as part of my argument wouldn't be fair as well, they didn't connect which is why I only selected successful passes.

Is this where you ignore the longer successful passes and only focus on the failed ones? I don't get why you would go out of your way to try and find the bad in a player. Go looking for the positives in Jordan's game, I can assure you there is plenty.

If so, I found a pic of mags

It's only a henna, should wash off.

If so, I found a pic of mags

I ummm...don't get it. Sorry. Don't watch Red Dwarf.

That guy does a fab Murray Walker impression though.

Is this where you ignore the longer successful passes and only focus on the failed ones?

Reminds me of the parody video I saw on YouTube about Roy Hodgson England manager after the Iceland game.

Like I said, the missed passes are all long balls, which only further prove my point of he doesn't just pass sideways. I thought using the missed passes as part of my argument wouldn't be fair as well, they didn't connect which is why I only selected successful passes.

I really think people are more alluding to his safe passing when mentioning side and back passes, so the way I see it from the stats you posted, it proves little to dispel mine and others opinion on his distribution.

I really think people are more alluding to his safe passing when mentioning side and back passes, so the way I see it from the stats you posted, it proves little to dispel mine and others opinion on his distribution.

It's literally right in front of you though. It shows lots of sideways passing yes, but there are lots of forward passes too that just get ignored. That's my issue, the ignoring of all the positive work he does, the lack of understanding of sometimes it is ok to pass sideways (although I agree Henderson does it too much) and the 'he's sh*t, always said he's sh*t' mentality where I firmly believe the 'I've always said' part is the most important. I've always though people would rather be right and have Henderson play terribly than be proved wrong and have him play well... What I never thought I'd see is have Henderson play well and have people just not admit it even when not only is the game right in front of their face, but also literally every pass he completed, sideways and forwards and STILL it's ignored, evidence is brushed off in 'stats don't matter I know what I see'. It is truly and utterly bonkers.

Reminds me of this dress (weird analogy but stick with me). I can see the dress is blue and black, so can a lot of you... But I know for a fact that some of you will swear blind this dress is white and gold:



We're seeing the same thing... But at the same time we just must not be.