We need to talk about Henderson...

Like I said, the missed passes are all long balls,

It shows lots of sideways passing yes, but there are lots of forward passes too that just get ignored.

So even Mags agrees Hendo plays a lot of sideways passes, but when he does play forward passes he is not very accurate at long balls, but he still rates Hendo...

So even Mags agrees Hendo plays a lot of sideways passes, but when he does play forward passes he is not very accurate at long balls, but he still rates Hendo...

I don't agree with him on Hendo but I don't think he's saying quite that. Besides Rib - didn't you rate Roy Hodgson's England? What next? Queen with Adam Lambert?

So even Mags agrees Hendo plays too many sideways passes, but when he does play forward passes he is not very accurate at long balls, but he still rates Hendo...

Yea I like a small adjustment can be made where he could be a little more adventurous.

There is a big difference between a forward pass and a long ball. A long ball is often used to pressure a full back, for example Herrera has multiple 'missed' long balls from the weekend because he was pressuring Moreno into 50/50 situations.

Henderson has an excellent success rate with forward passing, with long balls there is an expected dip in completion percentages due to the nature of the pass.

Even this is moving away from my point earlier, I don't even think it's his role in the team to create these chances, yet he's still doing it more than our other midfielders. His defensive work is more impressive than his attacking, but that also gets ignored too.

I really don't get the negativity. People are either lying to themselves or just not seeing it. I'm sure some would argue I'm doing the same... but that's why I'm checking the stats to make sure, and I'm sorry but I firmly believe they show what I'm seeing is pretty accurate.

Yea I like a small adjustment can be made where he could be a little more adventurous.

There is a big difference between a forward pass and a long ball. A long ball is often used to pressure a full back, for example Herrera has multiple 'missed' long balls from the weekend because he was pressuring Moreno into 50/50 situations.

Henderson has an excellent success rate with forward passing, with long balls there is an expected dip in completion percentages due to the nature of the pass.

Even this is moving away from my point earlier, I don't even think it's his role in the team to create these chances, yet he's still doing it more than our other midfielders. His defensive work is more impressive than his attacking, but that also gets ignored too.

I really don't get the negativity. People are either lying to themselves or just not seeing it. I'm sure some would argue I'm doing the same... but that's why I'm checking the stats to make sure, and I'm sorry but I firmly believe they show what I'm seeing is pretty accurate.

The stats show he has an excellent success rate of short forward passes all four of them, however this masks the fact that his forward pass numbers are such a significantly small proportion of his total passes.

They also show he has a sh*te success rate of long forward passes eleven of them. So suddenly the statement could change to most of his forward passes are sh*te.

I think the issue is not that he never makes a forward pass, successful or otherwise but that the vast majority of his passes are pretty much sideways or backwards and as I see it the diagram you put up supports this.

I really think people are more alluding to his safe passing when mentioning side and back passes, so the way I see it from the stats you posted, it proves little to dispel mine and others opinion on his distribution.

Absolutely.

Each pass must be measured with what alternative options were available, that's why your analysis earlier about his missed opportunities in the Man U game was excellent. This is what frustrates people seeing him go side to side and safety first, it's not as if the other option is of such substantial risk that it would give the opposition an overload counter it's that he completely misses the passes that would break lines in favour of safety.

Henderson has a useless role then. All midfielders should be creative and all the back four need to passing to all midfielders.

I take it you were not a fan of Javier Mascherano then?

I take it you were not a fan of Javier Mascherano then?

Or busquets

Imagine Javier Mascherano in that team, being asked to play "like a #6" as is the new fashion of saying here, or play the "Alonso role". I guess there would be people making one of the best DMs in the game to sound like sh*t if certain standards of play were applied to him. Btw that "I expect Hendo to play the Alonso role" saying is a load of bullshit, for I haven't seen the same posters going on about "I expect Firmino to play the Suarez/Torres role". They're different players obviously, Hendo a lesser one for sure, but just because people compare players it doesn't mean they should be playing the same role or style.

As for Henderson - hardly a world beater, surely not a terrible player as many make him out to be. It's so easy to cherry pick situations during a game to show where a midfielder could've done better, and Henderson is faced with that in every single situation. If he's covering for the right back and a goal is scored in the middle, someone will say: "look at where our DM is!". If our right fullback is exposed on the right and a cross comes in, "why isn't our DM covering for our fullback". For people who don't really rate Henderson, the expectations placed upon him are quite ridiculous - unless, of course, that's the way people find to confirm their own opinions.

Ideally I'd love to see a player in his position that is more comfortable in tight spaces, capable of moving around with the ball - I think of the master of the position, Fernando Redondo, whom I loved to watch so much. However those players are not easy to find, and I can  perfectly imagine a successful midfield with Hendo in his current role, as long as his partners are more balanced than the likes of Emre Can. Hendo, Keita and Lallana sounds pretty good to me.

I take it you were not a fan of Javier Mascherano then?

Masch was both defensive whilst still creating chances, he had excellent passing ability. Not like Hendo.

The stats show he has an excellent success rate of short forward passes all four of them, however this masks the fact that his forward pass numbers are such a significantly small proportion of his total passes.

They also show he has a sh*te success rate of long forward passes eleven of them. So suddenly the statement could change to most of his forward passes are sh*te.

I think the issue is not that he never makes a forward pass, successful or otherwise but that the vast majority of his passes are pretty much sideways or backwards and as I see it the diagram you put up supports this.

I think that is the issue though. People are saying 'he only passes sideways', that's my biggest complaint.

If people say 'he doesn't pass forward enough' or 'he could choose to be more adventurous' I think that's a fair argument and there are valid reasons behind it and evidence to back it up.

But to say 'he's sh*te he only passes sideways' just isn't an argument. It's pretty clear that he does pass forward, a lot more than what I feel he gets credit for. This is also impressive as I feel he's not even in the team to be making chances, I think Can and Gini are meant to be doing that but they're not really pulling their weight in the creative department at all.

I basically disagree with the entire premise of the thread. We actually don't need to be talking about Henderson he's the player we talk about the most, we need to be talking about some of the other players for a change.

Imagine Javier Mascherano in that team, being asked to play "like a #6" as is the new fashion of saying here, or play the "Alonso role". I guess there would be people making one of the best DMs in the game to sound like sh*t if certain standards of play were applied to him. Btw that "I expect Hendo to play the Alonso role" saying is a load of bullshit, for I haven't seen the same posters going on about "I expect Firmino to play the Suarez/Torres role". They're different players obviously, Hendo a lesser one for sure, but just because people compare players it doesn't mean they should be playing the same role or style.

As for Henderson - hardly a world beater, surely not a terrible player as many make him out to be. It's so easy to cherry pick situations during a game to show where a midfielder could've done better, and Henderson is faced with that in every single situation. If he's covering for the right back and a goal is scored in the middle, someone will say: "look at where our DM is!". If our right fullback is exposed on the right and a cross comes in, "why isn't our DM covering for our fullback". For people who don't really rate Henderson, the expectations placed upon him are quite ridiculous - unless, of course, that's the way people find to confirm their own opinions.

Ideally I'd love to see a player in his position that is more comfortable in tight spaces, capable of moving around with the ball - I think of the master of the position, Fernando Redondo, whom I loved to watch so much. However those players are not easy to find, and I can  perfectly imagine a successful midfield with Hendo in his current role, as long as his partners are more balanced than the likes of Emre Can. Hendo, Keita and Lallana sounds pretty good to me.

With Keita and Lallana there I suppose Henderson only has to work on the defensive side so his remit might become clearer. Even with that he's got a lot of work to do.

Masch was both defensive whilst still creating chances, he had excellent passing ability. Not like Hendo.

Are you on LSD? Mascherano created chances? I don't even have to look at the numbers to know that Henderson creates a hell of a lot more. There's a reason why he was moved to centre back at Barcelona despite being 1.74m tall.

At LFC however Masch had the good fortune of playing alongside Xabi Alonso, so he didn't even had to create anything. His job was a lot easier - just pass it to the pass master. Whereas Henderson is asked to do everything and a bit more, by people who seemingly don't rate him.

With Keita and Lallana there I suppose Henderson only has to work on the defensive side so his remit might become clearer. Even with that he's got a lot of work to do.

Exactly.

Comparing Henderson to Mascherano in some way to balance out the argument is pushing it a bit far in my opinion.

Mascherano was understood to not be as offensive minded as he offered far more protection. Henderson is neither Mascherano in defence, nor Alonso in attack, in fact the comparisons with either are ridiculous he's so far from them.

If like scales you can put Mascherano on one side and Alonso on the other and what you sacrifice in one you gain of the other, that's what we need. Henderson falls way short on both sides of that scale, neither his offensive ability compensate for his lack of defensive ability and neither does his defensive contribution and positional/threat awareness compensate for his poor attacking contribution.

As Frankly says, he can be hidden, but while we haven't had Lallana, he has been exposed once more.

Exactly.

Comparing Henderson to Mascherano in some way to balance out the argument is pushing it a bit far in my opinion.

Mascherano was understood to not be as offensive minded as he offered far more protection. Henderson is neither Mascherano in defence, nor Alonso in attack, in fact the comparisons with either are ridiculous he's so far from them.

If like scales you can put Mascherano on one side and Alonso on the other and what you sacrifice in one you gain of the other, that's what we need. Henderson falls way short on both sides of that scale, neither his offensive ability compensate for his lack of defensive ability and neither does his defensive contribution and positional/threat awareness compensate for his poor attacking contribution.

As Frankly says, he can be hidden, but while we haven't had Lallana, he has been exposed once more.

I'm not comparing Henderson to Mascherano, just saying that such a great player like Masch would also be found wanting if such ridiculously high standards were applied to him. Everything that goes wrong seems to be Henderson's fault. If we don't score, it's somehow the fault of our deep lying midfielder who doesn't do as good a job of passing the ball forwards, even though our attackers see plenty of the ball and we seem to create enough chances to win nearly every game. If we concede, then it's because the midfield isn't protecting the defence well enough, even though we play a high line with midfielders clearly instructed to press the ball high up the field, as Hendo himself is often chasing players in the final third of the pitch. He can't do everything.

I think our team lacks balance and many players suffer with it. Mascherano was a defensive monster, but it only worked well enough for him whilst he had Xabi Alonso next to him. The moment you changed Xabi for Lucas, Masch struggled, for he couldn't do everything at once. And no one seemed to blame him individually for that, but rather the composition of the team that was unbalanced and simply not good enough.

If you ask a player to do both the "Masch role" and the "Alonso role", that's exactly what you'll get: someone who isn't one nor the other, not as good defensively, nor passing the ball. Btw, I don't think that's what he's being asked to do by the manager, but rather the expectations some seem to have of his game.

With Keita and Lallana there I suppose Henderson only has to work on the defensive side so his remit might become clearer. Even with that he's got a lot of work to do.

We can definitely upgrade on him. My opinions on Henderson changed with time. I used to think he was utter rubbish when first signed. He surely was terrible on the right wing. Now I think he's a decent player, nowhere near top class, but good enough for LFC, at the very least as a squad player. I just don't really agree with the focus on him. As Mags has said - do we need to talk about Hendo? Yes, perhaps so. But do we do anything but? There were already at least two or three threads that basically existed so people could abuse Henderson every time he miss-timed a tackle or made a bad pass.

We can definitely upgrade on him. My opinions on Henderson changed with time. I used to think he was utter rubbish when first signed. He surely was terrible on the right wing. Now I think he's a decent player, nowhere near top class, but good enough for LFC, at the very least as a squad player. I just don't really agree with the focus on him. As Mags has said - do we need to talk about Hendo? Yes, perhaps so. But do we do anything but? There were already at least two or three threads that basically existed so people could abuse Henderson every time he miss-timed a tackle or made a bad pass.

Do we need to talk about Hendo? As you note yes. Given the amount of responses to this thread, I'd say it's a pressing concern for many out there and needs to be highlighted - not buried below other headlines. Aside from that I'm struggling to find these active threads that deal specifically with Henderson aside from the obligatory player thread.

Too many questions I know but the fact there are so many perhaps says enough.

Questions like... He doesn't pick himself: are the folk, who don't rate Hendo, ALL too yellow to "pull" Jürgen? 😂

That aside, when the Club eventually get rid; there'll just be a new witch to hunt. 😉

Like Pepe, then Danny [Agger] and then Martin... be careful what you wish for (out loud) Redmen - you just might get it.

On the lad himself: he's been picked and made Captain by people way more qualified than me. I'll readily bow to their superior knowledge of the lad and if I'm being honest...

There's been a pile of sh*te bought and played behind him that I'm more concerned about.

It's as simple as this - I'd have Jordan in front of the Spurs back five before I'd have Kante in front of ours. 😉

Great points being made on this, especially Mags, Diego and now BBB!

When its balanced and reasoned and backed up, this IS a thread worth running with, not because "Jordan's crap", because he isn't, but because those who say so ad-nauseum without evidence or insight need to understand that this is a far more complex TEAM game than MOTD and Football Manager games would have you believe. 

It's not about individual players being 'sh*te' or 'world class'.  its about a blend of team balance and individual quality and ingenuity overcoming an infinite and ever-changing set of physical, mental and emotional challenges. 

If you can't get behind our lads, if you'd rather knock them down than build them up, go and 'support' some other club. 

Questions like... He doesn't pick himself: are the folk, who don't rate Hendo, ALL too yellow to "pull" Jürgen? 😂

That aside, when the Club eventually get rid; there'll just be a new witch to hunt. 😉

Like Pepe, then Danny [Agger] and then Martin... be careful what you wish for (out loud) Redmen - you just might get it.

On the lad himself: he's been picked and made Captain by people way more qualified than me. I'll readily bow to their superior knowledge of the lad and if I'm being honest...

There's been a pile of sh*te bought and played behind him that I'm more concerned about.

It's as simple as this - I'd have Jordan in front of the Spurs back five before I'd have Kante in front of ours. 😉

It's natural for fans to question choices made. Has happened since the year dot and will happen until the end of time. Roy Hodgson bought Paul Konchesky but because he is more qualified to manage than me or you doesn't mean that we shouldn't question it. And question it we did and rightly so.

It'd be pretty boring if we just sat back and said 'well I think you're all just magnificent'

It's a bizarre argument that if applied everywhere would leave this and hundreds more forums completely redundent.

Ever pass forward tonight seeing as our ball and chain won't be there side-to-siding it ....

Anyone else think that if Henderson didnt look the way he did, he would have been long gone from the club, and never been in the England squad? Never been handed the captaincy? This doesnt explain everything, he has shown glimpses of quality, but I honestly believe that if he looked like, say, Charlie Adam, we wouldnt even remember his name by now.

I know this is pretty out there, but anyone else ever have this thought cross their head? 

Every pass forward tonight seeing as our ball and chain won't be there side-to-siding it ....

Anyone else think that if Henderson didnt look the way he did, he would have been long gone from the club, and never been in the England squad? Never been handed the captaincy? This doesnt explain everything, he has shown glimpses of quality, but I honestly believe that if he looked like, say, Charlie Adam, we wouldnt even remember his name by now.

I know this is pretty out there, but anyone else ever have this thought cross their head? 

Not far off being the worst post of the year if not the decade..