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      We need to talk about Henderson...

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      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #230: Oct 20, 2017 11:45:52 am
      6 pages since I was last in here. What's happened? Do we have a new Captain?

      Nope.

      Same sh*t different day AR
      MIRO
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #231: Oct 20, 2017 03:50:45 pm
      Its been on my mind for quite a while now, that I'm becoming more convinced that Jordan's days at LFC are numbered

      Milner took his chance last night with aplomb and if we are all honest would say keep him there, Hendo for whatever reason simply hasn't been anywhere near the level we need him to be,
      Don't get me wrong here Milner isn't the answer either, however, his mantra is to head for goal rather than opting to go sideways or back,
      I can't imagine that Klopp prefers Henderson to be more conservative and prefer seeing the play slowed down with his constant negative passing, after all isnt the objective of his system to get the ball forward asap to allow speed of attack ,

      We seen last night how much better we were going forward quicker , the result speaks for itself , imo Henderson is the least likely of our mids to take us forward, Can & Gini although not pulling up trees at least  are more attack minded and endeavour to turn towards goal at every opportunity,

      I think Henderson has reached his level/ peak of his abilities, his better performances are few and far between and obviously cannot sustain a level of consistency,

      If Liverpool are to dine at the top most table we need players way above the level of the Jordan Henderson' s of this world.

      YNWA

      https://youtu.be/h42kzEA9l8Q
      redkop63
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #232: Oct 20, 2017 03:57:25 pm
      Nar mate nothing to do with the movement we have runners everywhere in front of him.

      You only have to look at when he passes back to matip or lovren. As soon as they get the ball they usually play the forward pass Hendo should have played in the first place.

      Righly said, I have observed many times Matip ran passed Hendo and  the halfway line and made that 30 yards or so forward pass, as if telling hendo "get that ball off our half quickly".
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #233: Oct 20, 2017 06:46:50 pm
      The sad thing is, half the posts in this thread aren't even against Henderson anymore.

      Sad?  Half a dozen Kopites defending their club captain is 'sad?'  That needs explaining.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #234: Oct 20, 2017 06:59:46 pm
      Sad?  Half a dozen Kopites defending their club captain is 'sad?'  That needs explaining.
      Half a dozen out of how many? about 50?
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #235: Oct 20, 2017 07:03:28 pm
      Half a dozen out of how many? about 50?

      Yeah, well maybe that's the saddest thing.  50 is a gross exaggeration, however.
      You still haven't explained why you said sad, though.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #236: Oct 20, 2017 09:11:14 pm
      Yeah, well maybe that's the saddest thing.  50 is a gross exaggeration, however.
      You still haven't explained why you said sad, though.
      Are you anencephalous or something?
      bmck
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #237: Oct 20, 2017 11:09:27 pm
      Expecting Hendo back for Sunday.
      Having seen Milner midweek, and the reaction to him, maybe hope for a little more positivity on the ball.
      Though this is a different game, we won't be able to attack to same extent, and expect Klopp (and so Hendo) to be more cautious.
      The little bit of extra pressure for CM places can only be a good thing.

      Harrisimo
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #238: Oct 20, 2017 11:48:19 pm
      I am not sure Henderson has the ability to play those forward passes though. I seen somebody illustrate a few pages back the passes he missed, I am not sure if it is his awareness or inability. It could be he has no confidence to make that pass, who knows. It's been going on a while now, when Henderson has a few good games and all of a sudden he is validated again, then slumps into months of garbage performances and people are like Henderson okay, no other better players around...

      Very often he'll shape up to make a forward positive pass, then check as if he doesn't want to take the chance. Then knock it to a defender, then might get it back again. Obviously there are times when you do have to check and play the simple lay off but he just does it to often. This isn't a massive adjustment, just 3/4 more positive passes, bit more of a confident mentality.

      But then again he might get in a good position but over hits it, or his support play just doesn't take the eye. The telling balls just seam to be few and far between. He does just enough to justify his place, a decent holding/support player. Probably suffering by comparison to Stevie G.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #239: Oct 20, 2017 11:55:32 pm
      Do we need a " Hendo square pass count". Be more away from home obviously, but be interesting to get a clue how many times he actually does lay it off. I think it's no more than 3/4 times and it could just be only maybe 1 or even 2 more ambitious passes would make a difference.

      As it happens I don't think his game will change. We have to rely on others to make the difference
      Danzel
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #240: Oct 21, 2017 12:07:48 am
      Not sure if this has already been posted, it's pre-United game, but some very interesting things said by the manager.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIm_BhgVgqw

      It's not only about Henderson, but some interesting points for and against Henderson. Klopp, from what I understand, seems to encourage safe passing and patience in the build-up because of the way we set up once we are in possession. So most of Henderson's passing, seems by Klopp's instruction. Now that's not the issue for me, for me the issue is the speed at which he executes the passes and shifts the ball.

      He also mentions something I've said a few pages back with regards to his forward passing: when to actually pass it forward. The goal against Newcastle is in it, where he made the wrong choice (he has done it a few times already this season and we've always gotten into trouble because of it). There's an example of Matip making the wrong choice of pass in it too.

      The other thing mentioned is positioning when we transition from offense, pressing, into defence. Both Can (unsurprisingly) and Henderson being the main culprits for being out of position. The full backs aren't mentioned (by Klopp) as being out of position, yet a lot of people are constantly blaming Moreno for being out of position, when he actually isn't. It's because of poor decision making in our passing sometimes that our full backs find themselves high up the pitch while we face a counter-attack.

      « Last Edit: Oct 21, 2017 12:14:35 am by Danzel »
      fckmediocrity
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #241: Oct 21, 2017 12:53:22 am
      Not sure if this has already been posted, it's pre-United game, but some very interesting things said by the manager.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIm_BhgVgqw

      It's not only about Henderson, but some interesting points for and against Henderson. Klopp, from what I understand, seems to encourage safe passing and patience in the build-up because of the way we set up once we are in possession. So most of Henderson's passing, seems by Klopp's instruction. Now that's not the issue for me, for me the issue is the speed at which he executes the passes and shifts the ball.

      He also mentions something I've said a few pages back with regards to his forward passing: when to actually pass it forward. The goal against Newcastle is in it, where he made the wrong choice (he has done it a few times already this season and we've always gotten into trouble because of it). There's an example of Matip making the wrong choice of pass in it too.

      The other thing mentioned is positioning when we transition from offense, pressing, into defence. Both Can (unsurprisingly) and Henderson being the main culprits for being out of position. The full backs aren't mentioned (by Klopp) as being out of position, yet a lot of people are constantly blaming Moreno for being out of position, when he actually isn't. It's because of poor decision making in our passing sometimes that our full backs find themselves high up the pitch while we face a counter-attack.

      Forgive me if I don't get it but what is the point of this kind of videos ??? What does he achieve by discussing tacticts like that in the open on live tv ? He also did it last year and I still didn't figure it out other than maybe scoring charisma points.
      Danzel
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #242: Oct 21, 2017 12:58:34 am
      Forgive me if I don't get it but what is the point of this kind of videos ??? What does he achieve by discussing tacticts like that in the open on live tv ? He also did it last year and I still didn't figure it out other than maybe scoring charisma points.

      He's not really discussing any tactics in it. Mostly pointing out errors by our players in certain situations, errors they shouldn't be making in the first place.

      The first bit is about Coutinho being an important player able to play multiple positions, nothing other managers don't already know.

      The second bit is a few situations in which we condeded goals / chances because of players being out of position or making the wrong decisions.

      Other than that, he doesn't go into detail about any of our tactics, other than saying we have different offensive setups. All PL teams have backroom staff with a load of analysts, he's not telling us or them anything they can't see for themselves.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #243: Oct 21, 2017 03:11:54 am
      I've had enough of Jordan Henderson personally.

      He has been here several years now and when has he consistently played well for us?

      In the nearly season? Yeah, he did ok in a team that was flying, but Luis, Sturridge, Stevie, Raheem, Phil and Flanno put in more noticeable performances than Hendo who just did the donkey work.

      The best I've seen of Hendo was at the start of last season when again we were flying, smashing everybody left right and centre. Hendo was played as a DM. But was he actually performing well himself, or were the other players carrying him? I actually think hendos 'form' last season came down to the brilliance of Lallana who we moved to the centre in the 10 role, he carried us, not Hendo.

      In games when we have the ball I think it's clear how poor Henderson is as a footballer. His decision making is dreadful, constantly picking the safe option. I think it's fair to label him a shithouse. Jordan captain shithouse Henderson.

      He has no bottle. He even shys out of tackles but then gives Diego Costa a creepy stare and swings his arms about when walking - are we supposed to be fooled and think he's hard or something?

      He has no drive. I've never seen him charge forward with the ball. I've never seen him sprint 30 yards and strive to make a last ditch tackle. I've never seen him put his body on the line and throw himself in front of shots.

      Jordan Henderson is at his best when we play games where the other team have the ball. That basically says everything. With the ball he's hopeless, without it he's actually alright. He covers ground quickly and his energy levels are high.

      As a footballer he is bang average though, and that's being kind to him, and it saddens me that he is our skipper and that 50% of our fan base seem to rate him highly too. Their memories are short and they've forgotten already some of the great captains, and midfielders, we've had at this club who set what the standard should still be today.
      « Last Edit: Oct 21, 2017 03:17:24 am by HamannsTheMan »
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #244: Oct 21, 2017 03:55:55 am
      Not sure if this has already been posted, it's pre-United game, but some very interesting things said by the manager.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIm_BhgVgqw

      It's not only about Henderson, but some interesting points for and against Henderson. Klopp, from what I understand, seems to encourage safe passing and patience in the build-up because of the way we set up once we are in possession. So most of Henderson's passing, seems by Klopp's instruction. Now that's not the issue for me, for me the issue is the speed at which he executes the passes and shifts the ball.

      He also mentions something I've said a few pages back with regards to his forward passing: when to actually pass it forward. The goal against Newcastle is in it, where he made the wrong choice (he has done it a few times already this season and we've always gotten into trouble because of it). There's an example of Matip making the wrong choice of pass in it too.

      The other thing mentioned is positioning when we transition from offense, pressing, into defence. Both Can (unsurprisingly) and Henderson being the main culprits for being out of position. The full backs aren't mentioned (by Klopp) as being out of position, yet a lot of people are constantly blaming Moreno for being out of position, when he actually isn't. It's because of poor decision making in our passing sometimes that our full backs find themselves high up the pitch while we face a counter-attack.



      Couldn't agree more Danzel and I highly recommend anyone who hasn't seen that to watch it. 23 minutes of really engaging tactical analysis and you can really learn about the way Jürgen wants his team to both transition from defence and through the midfield, hence your point about Henderson, but also how our team defends even when attacking.

      It's a point I've tried to make before and to some resistance that we're actually far better at defending than we're given credit for. We are, individually, prone to errors but as a system we are rarely "outplayed" and Jürgen explains this perfectly in this clip.

      On your point about Hendo though, I'm also not as concerned about his 'safe' passing other than when it goes back and forward to Gomez 4 times or other similar examples of when if I were the receiving player I honestly would have to restrain myself from absolutely leathering the ball at him. It's when he has the opportunities to make incisive passes that are not risky he either passes them up or plays them without a thought of what the receiving player will do to it. It's like taking football down to it's simplest form and how you were taught to always pass the ball in front of a player to the foot he prefers to receive it. All our forwards are technically brilliant, the extra bit of pace you put on the ball for them can be used to beat their man, play the first time pass that if you don't give them that pace on the ball simply robs them of that opportunity and this really infuriates me with Hendo and this is how he kills tempo too often.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #245: Oct 21, 2017 10:46:29 am
      I wouldn't be so lacking in self-awareness to pretend I have studied the man or anything but could it be that...

      Jürgen always picks Jordan because he plays the way he is told to play? Managers tend to like that. 😉

      The alternative, for "us", is to pretend a) that Jürgen doesn't pick his players on merit and/or b) Jordan [or someone else] picks the team. 😕

      Truth is: Jürgen picks him - you all know that but very few are man or honest enough to say it.

      The rest? Too F***ing lily-livered and dripping with hypocrisy to lay the blame where it needs to be. Chicken-sh*t, ball-bags, hiding behind each other and adopting the 'Turd's Manefesto'. 😁

      « Last Edit: Oct 21, 2017 11:15:49 am by bad boy bubby »
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #246: Oct 21, 2017 12:28:10 pm
      Are you anencephalous or something?

      Right. 

      I have said NOTHING to insult, belittle or disrespect you or you posts in any way.  I gave my opinion in response to your perfectly reasonable and entertaining (although, in my opinion, misguided and under-informed) thread, and asked you to clarify one comment. 

      Unlike some, I don't see any value or take any personal satisfaction in cowardly abuse.  If I wouldn't say something face to face I won't post it on the internet.  It's called having standards.  Having self-respect. 

      You question the contents of my cranium when you a) don't know me from Adam, b) have no reason to feel disrespected or offended by me, and c) have no likelihood of ever having to back your words up face-to-face.

      So, what am I to make of you?
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #247: Oct 21, 2017 12:47:52 pm
      He’ll start tomorrow.

      As he should.
      heimdall
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #248: Oct 21, 2017 02:35:22 pm
      Right. 

      I have said NOTHING to insult, belittle or disrespect you or you posts in any way.  I gave my opinion in response to your perfectly reasonable and entertaining (although, in my opinion, misguided and under-informed) thread, and asked you to clarify one comment. 

      Unlike some, I don't see any value or take any personal satisfaction in cowardly abuse.  If I wouldn't say something face to face I won't post it on the internet.  It's called having standards.  Having self-respect. 

      You question the contents of my cranium when you a) don't know me from Adam, b) have no reason to feel disrespected or offended by me, and c) have no likelihood of ever having to back your words up face-to-face.

      So, what am I to make of you?


      Good Lord, over reaction much??
      bmck
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #249: Oct 21, 2017 03:21:10 pm
      The alternative, for "us", is to pretend a) that Jürgen doesn't pick his players on merit and/or b) Jordan [or someone else] picks the team. 😕


      It's kinda like when we do bad, and some complain about the sh*te players left by BR.
      Don't mind the elephants in the room.
      Jürgen is picking him (and leaving him as captain) because he is filling a role, and in a way, Jürgen wants it filled.
      Personally think we could've brought in a more natural DM who is more defensive oriented, more of a natural tackler.
      But he didn't, we did very little business in the summer.
      But let's bash the captain for playing in a role he's being asked, in a way the manager wants.

      Oh, and defending Hendo doesn't mean I think he's great and there's no-one out there who couldn't improve us in that position.
      When we clearly can improve, in lots of positions.
      But it's been two years, and he's still captain.
      Lke many on I here believe he can more positive in certain games - is Jürgen saying that to him? Dunno. Presume not,  Hendo's not an idiot, he does what the manager asks.
      Reckon if Jürgen asked him to play a different way, he would.

      He's on a hiding to nothing.
      Some people have it in for him.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #250: Oct 21, 2017 03:27:05 pm
      Right. 

      I have said NOTHING to insult, belittle or disrespect you or you posts in any way.  I gave my opinion in response to your perfectly reasonable and entertaining (although, in my opinion, misguided and under-informed) thread, and asked you to clarify one comment. 

      Unlike some, I don't see any value or take any personal satisfaction in cowardly abuse.  If I wouldn't say something face to face I won't post it on the internet.  It's called having standards.  Having self-respect. 

      You question the contents of my cranium when you a) don't know me from Adam, b) have no reason to feel disrespected or offended by me, and c) have no likelihood of ever having to back your words up face-to-face.

      So, what am I to make of you?
      ah yeah, you're right, I don't like it when people act like that so I should apologize for doing that. I meant it's sad that we have a second topic about Henderson, in which people weren't even discussing Henderson. I don't mean sad as in opposite of happy, but more in the sense donald trump refers to fake news. I hope that cleared it up buddy.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #251: Oct 21, 2017 03:30:58 pm
      He probably did take it personally, but I should not really have asked him if he were anencephalous to be honest. I asked that because I thought he was asking for clarity on something that I thought seemed obvious.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #252: Oct 21, 2017 04:41:26 pm
      but I should not really have asked him if he were anencephalous to be honest.

      Especially as some would say you could easily be talking about yourself ;)

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