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      We need to talk about Henderson...

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      HScRed1
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #23: Oct 15, 2017 10:01:41 am
      I can't keep up with this shifting of sands.

      We were all told that now Klopp is here he has the final say on transfers and money to spend, fact is, he's had as much say in where and what he's spending money on. He chose not to spend in two succesive winter windows, he chose not to look for alternatives or back-ups in defence after the VVD debacle.

      Speaking of VVD, we were touted as signing VVD for anything up to 70 million this summer; blowing away anything we had previously paid for in a transfer window!

      Now, unless that was complete BS (us wanting to sign VVD), you cannot whinge on one hand that Klopp doesn't have the money while in the next hand you're readying to spend approximately 70 odd million on one player.

      You can't have this both ways.

      We've just spent 35 million pounds on AOC. If we were as cash poor as you are now implying then spending that kind of money on a bench warmer (who actually looked bright yesterday btw), was reckless to say the least.

      What people don't want to accept is that Klopp has the final say on transfers and has had the opportunity to spend money and has either sanctioned deals or not.

      I suppose we can all differ in our views as no one really knows the truth.

      No way Saints would have turned down the "alleged" £70M we were willing to spend, Only fact is our average spend has stayed the same even with the arrival of Klopp.

      We get spun plenty of BS from the club.

      bigmick
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #24: Oct 15, 2017 10:23:41 am
      Henderson is some way below what you need if you are serious about your aim to be a really top team, that much is fairly obvious. Whether it's Henderson, Wijnaldum, Can or a combination of all three, we are clearly miles behind the best teams in the league in terms of midfielders. Whether we're talking Kevin De Broyne, Davide Silva, N'golo Kante, Pogba, Errikson, Wanyama, Dier etc, we are short in quality in there. Whether Henderson is the most pressing issue I'm not sure, but I suppose the fact that he's the captain puts him under the microscope.

      On transfers and transfer funds, I've never bought into the narrative that Jürgen is totally in control of transfers. It's frankly a silly notion which the evidence simply doesn't bear out, but there's no doubt in my mind that until we spend much heavier, we will struggle to keep pace with the high fliers.   
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #25: Oct 15, 2017 10:42:53 am
      Henderson is more than good enough when he has a creative player beside him. It's why he was just as important to the side that finished runners up under Rodgers as Suarez, Sturridge and Gerrard were. It was his harrying of the opposition that constantly won us the ball, play it simple to Gerrard and then Stevie takes the credit for an amazing ball to Luis or Danny. Sticking him in a midfield trio of himself, Wijnaldum and Can is just repeating the Mascherano/Lucas partnership that was F***ing sh*te as well. All too similar and none good enough to be the creative force you need in the middle of the park.

      And with Mane's injury, Coutinho is more likely to be played as one of the front three rather than a slightly deeper role where he helps Henderson like he did against Moscow and Newcastle, which were two of Henderson's better games this season. When he has that creative player beside him.

      So for me the question is not Henderson, the question is why have we not bought a creative central midfielder to accompany Henderson. Rather than Gini and Can who are just too samey to Henderson.

      As for would other sides in the top six pick him, what a load of F***ing bollocks. Maybe they wouldn't pick him, maybe he wouldn't get into their starting XI's but a couple of years ago neither could Danny Sturridge - his career with us is still nearly one in two. Victor F***ing Moses is a regular for Chelsea, yet do you remember his time here? Chris Smalling and Phil F***ing Jones are at the heart of the United defence. You could go through every one of the top six and say "he wouldn't get into our side". It doesn't mean they're not a good player. If we're being honest, there's hardly a host of clubs lining up to sign any of our players so by the logic of they wouldn't get into the top six sides, all our players are sh*t.

      And the captain discussion is another mute point. He's the captain of the club, deal with it. Klopp has been here two full years now and has made no hints that he's thinking of taking the captaincy off Henderson. There also isn't a stand out candidate to replace him, until there is and until Klopp thinks we need to change captains, then Henderson is, rightfully, our captain.

      All of this comes down to Jürgen Klopp anyway. When fit, Henderson plays. Even when he's unfit, Henderson plays. For me that's why he broke down a couple of times when returning from injuries because we put him back into the team too early. Klopp obviously rates him and doesn't look as if he's planning on changing Henderson's position. We can all sit and speculate and say Can would do a better job in that position (not that I'd ever say that in all honesty) or that Lallana should come back and take Henderson's place (I wouldn't say that either) but it's Klopp who picks the team and Klopp, when he can, picks Jordan Henderson in his starting XI.

      So if Henderson isn't good enough but is constantly picked by the manager, then the manager you all think is god's gift must be sh*t to. Or, maybe Henderson is actually doing the job that god's gift wants him to and therefore is good enough for Klopp.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #26: Oct 15, 2017 11:51:34 am
      Henderson is more than good enough when he has a creative player beside him. It's why he was just as important to the side that finished runners up under Rodgers as Suarez, Sturridge and Gerrard were. It was his harrying of the opposition that constantly won us the ball, play it simple to Gerrard and then Stevie takes the credit for an amazing ball to Luis or Danny. Sticking him in a midfield trio of himself, Wijnaldum and Can is just repeating the Mascherano/Lucas partnership that was f**king sh*te as well. All too similar and none good enough to be the creative force you need in the middle of the park.

      And with Mane's injury, Coutinho is more likely to be played as one of the front three rather than a slightly deeper role where he helps Henderson like he did against Moscow and Newcastle, which were two of Henderson's better games this season. When he has that creative player beside him.

      So for me the question is not Henderson, the question is why have we not bought a creative central midfielder to accompany Henderson. Rather than Gini and Can who are just too samey to Henderson.

      As for would other sides in the top six pick him, what a load of f**king bollocks. Maybe they wouldn't pick him, maybe he wouldn't get into their starting XI's but a couple of years ago neither could Danny Sturridge - his career with us is still nearly one in two. Victor f**king Moses is a regular for Chelsea, yet do you remember his time here? Chris Smalling and Phil f**king Jones are at the heart of the United defence. You could go through every one of the top six and say "he wouldn't get into our side". It doesn't mean they're not a good player. If we're being honest, there's hardly a host of clubs lining up to sign any of our players so by the logic of they wouldn't get into the top six sides, all our players are sh*t.

      And the captain discussion is another mute point. He's the captain of the club, deal with it. Klopp has been here two full years now and has made no hints that he's thinking of taking the captaincy off Henderson. There also isn't a stand out candidate to replace him, until there is and until Klopp thinks we need to change captains, then Henderson is, rightfully, our captain.

      All of this comes down to Jürgen Klopp anyway. When fit, Henderson plays. Even when he's unfit, Henderson plays. For me that's why he broke down a couple of times when returning from injuries because we put him back into the team too early. Klopp obviously rates him and doesn't look as if he's planning on changing Henderson's position. We can all sit and speculate and say Can would do a better job in that position (not that I'd ever say that in all honesty) or that Lallana should come back and take Henderson's place (I wouldn't say that either) but it's Klopp who picks the team and Klopp, when he can, picks Jordan Henderson in his starting XI.

      So if Henderson isn't good enough but is constantly picked by the manager, then the manager you all think is god's gift must be sh*t to. Or, maybe Henderson is actually doing the job that god's gift wants him to and therefore is good enough for Klopp.

      Don't agree with it all but it's a good post well made dls.

      In times of shortages however he needs to take more responsibility and bite. If we're comparing him to Victor Moses who while playing well enough over the last year, most Chelsea fans still believe they can improve upon. Regardless of his improvement I really would have expected more from a Liverpool captain than be mentioned in the same breath as him.
      wellbuilt
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #27: Oct 15, 2017 12:25:34 pm
      i am far from impressed with Henderson

      he simply does not offer enough. He is not good enough in all departments to be considered with the best players in the league. He falls short time and time again.

      he is very determined and can pull a pass out every now and again....but the issue is that it is in no way often enough.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #28: Oct 15, 2017 12:40:53 pm
      Henderson is some way below what you need if you are serious about your aim to be a really top team, that much is fairly obvious. Whether it's Henderson, Wijnaldum, Can or a combination of all three, we are clearly miles behind the best teams in the league in terms of midfielders. Whether we're talking Kevin De Broyne, Davide Silva, N'golo Kante, Pogba, Errikson, Wanyama, Dier etc, we are short in quality in there. Whether Henderson is the most pressing issue I'm not sure, but I suppose the fact that he's the captain puts him under the microscope.

      On transfers and transfer funds, I've never bought into the narrative that Jürgen is totally in control of transfers. It's frankly a silly notion which the evidence simply doesn't bear out, but there's no doubt in my mind that until we spend much heavier, we will struggle to keep pace with the high fliers.   

      Dier, sorry but would take hendo over him anyday
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #29: Oct 15, 2017 12:58:44 pm
      Dier, sorry but would take hendo over him anyday

      100%
      bigmick
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #30: Oct 15, 2017 01:23:34 pm
      Dier, sorry but would take hendo over him anyday

      Fair enough mate, all opinions and all that stuff. I think if both were put on the market and up for sale there'd be a fairly obvious difference in the respective valuations, but like I say each to their own.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #31: Oct 15, 2017 01:26:06 pm
      I suppose we can all differ in our views as no one really knows the truth.

      No way Saints would have turned down the "alleged" £70M we were willing to spend, Only fact is our average spend has stayed the same even with the arrival of Klopp.

      We get spun plenty of BS from the club.



      So you are saying we weren't interested in vvd or the statement ending interest in him wasn't genuine ?
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #32: Oct 15, 2017 02:34:25 pm
      I have never been a "fan" of Henderson... can not see what he really brings to the team except his ability to run all day...Plenty of DM midfielders out there that would bring that and more to LFC 
      federer
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #33: Oct 15, 2017 02:36:17 pm
      Klopp's quite happy to bide his time and nurture the best out of them. And more importantly for FSG, Klopp's way of seeing things is a whole lot cheaper.

      It's been six years since we signed Henderson.  He's had three different managers and he doesn't look any better than he did the day we signed him. 

      If six years isn't enough nurturing time then what is?

      What a disaster Rodgers was, by the way.  If he hadn't made Henderson captain, there's no way Henderson would be in the starting lineup today.  He might not even be at the club anymore.  We're still paying the price for Rodgers' sh*te decisions.
      bigmick
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #34: Oct 15, 2017 02:54:12 pm
      It's been six years since we signed Henderson.  He's had three different managers and he doesn't look any better than he did the day we signed him. 

      If six years isn't enough nurturing time then what is?

      What a disaster Rodgers was, by the way.  If he hadn't made Henderson captain, there's no way Henderson would be in the starting lineup today.  He might not even be at the club anymore.  We're still paying the price for Rodgers' sh*te decisions.

      F****** Rodgers!!  :mad: :mad:

      bmck
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #35: Oct 15, 2017 03:16:36 pm
      What a disaster Rodgers was, by the way.  If he hadn't made Henderson captain, there's no way Henderson would be in the starting lineup today.  He might not even be at the club anymore.  We're still paying the price for Rodgers' sh*te decisions.

      Am not sure if this is serious, though I don't see a smily face...
      Hmm, maybe someone should have a word with the guy who must have a gun to Klopps head that's keeping Hendo in the side last 2 years.
      DanMann
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #36: Oct 15, 2017 03:19:54 pm

      If I recall correctly, there weren't many options available at the time and the consensus was that he was most suitable.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #37: Oct 15, 2017 03:23:33 pm
      If I recall correctly, there weren't many options available at the time and the consensus was that he was most suitable.

      Don't bother with it, the fella constantly repeating that crap about Rodgers picking Hendo as captain is the same who used to say Sakho - that guy who turned up late for training - was the "real captain", and that "everybody" knew it.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #38: Oct 15, 2017 03:37:25 pm
      It's been six years since we signed Henderson.  He's had three different managers and he doesn't look any better than he did the day we signed him. 

      If six years isn't enough nurturing time then what is?

      What a disaster Rodgers was, by the way.  If he hadn't made Henderson captain, there's no way Henderson would be in the starting lineup today.  He might not even be at the club anymore.  We're still paying the price for Rodgers' sh*te decisions.

      Really ?
      bmck
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #39: Oct 15, 2017 03:48:09 pm
      Had a similar thread about SG. Now it's Hendo.
      While Hendo is not in the same league as SG, he's the captain of the club right now, as was SG when his thread was in full flow.
      WHY is it that we find fault, pick at and constantly critisise guys who are mainstays, is beyond me.
      He's not perfect, no doubt, but he has qualities that have made him captain, and England captain.
      Even in games where he plays well, people critise - so tbh can't take them seriously when he doesn't.

      Would people not be more inclined to start a 'We need to talk about why Jürgen plays Hendo..' thread?
      After all, he's the one who has stuck by Hendo and retains him as captain these last years.
      If Hendo's not up to it, the manager should be the one to do something about it, no?

      Yesterday tbh I would've subbed off Hendo. Not because he was playing 'badly' per se, he was just playing the way he always does.
      BUT in a game against bus parkers, we need more impetus, pace, desire to get the ball forward, and QUICKLY.
      And we play against bus parkers a lot these day.
      But AGAIN, Jürgen decided to take off our attacking 3 and replace them (though late with the changes, again). Leave Hendo/Gini/Can on.
      And we got worse if anything, apart from AOC who had some decent runs.
      Why not take off Hendo (or Can), leave Coutinho on? Made f**k all sense to me.
      But hey, let's talk about Hendo..

      He's not SG, he's not got the same attacking flair.
      He is though good in front of goal, but he's played almost between the CBs for so long now, he seems to have lost that knack.
      Why is he playing so deep? Is he doing it against Jurgens wishes? Doubt it.

      We have bigger problems than Hendo, or any single player. Natter away about him all you like.
      But we need to find a plan f**king A, not B, against the bus parkers with the players we HAVE right now.
      Conte won a title with Victor f**king Moses playing regularly!?! What a job the Italian did last season.
      Think part of the reason the match thread was so quiet yest is people are getting worn down watching the same game over and over and over again.
      For me tho, rather than start picking on individual players, we need to look at why more and more teams are deciding to rock up and play that way against us.

      And that's without going round in circles about whether we should sign an out and out striker, a GK, better quality in defense (forget yest, next time we ship stupid goals, we'll be back bemoaning them yet again), etc

      Hendo is not perfect, but imho we have far bigger fish to fry.
      Magillionare
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #40: Oct 15, 2017 04:53:13 pm
      I honestly think I'm seeing another player sometimes.

      I think he's absolutely superb. Pressures players excellently, wins the ball back more than the rest of our team combined nearly. Has a good passing range, the 'always passes sideways' argument is not valid and has been proven to not be valid. You can say 'stats don't tell the whole story' all you want but having the highest average pass length of all our midfielders and most passes into the final third by a country mile seems pretty clear to me.

      Against United he's getting so much stick for an excellent performance. He was in complete control of that game and never looked unnerved. His job is very very clearly; win the ball back, pass it to our 'creators'. He is in charge of making sure we have the ball, and he's damn good at it. If we judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it doesn't hold well. We are asking Henderson to do things that he's not in the team to do. He's an easy target, 'We need to talk about Henderson' utter bollocks. All we've been doing is talking about Henderson, we have 3 threads full of abuse against him. We need to be talking about our so called 'match winners' they're the ones not doing their job, not Henderson.
      HScRed1
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #41: Oct 15, 2017 05:47:16 pm
      So you are saying we weren't interested in vvd or the statement ending interest in him wasn't genuine ?

      Im sure we were but not anywhere like the prices being mentioned.

      Just like we were never going to get Lemar for the prices suggested.
      sore monad
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #42: Oct 15, 2017 05:57:57 pm
      Thought Hendo was excellent against Manure. Ran the midfield. Baffles me our midfielders get so much stick when we continually dominate possession. Our problems have overwhelmingly been in front of goal, at both ends.
      heimdall
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #43: Oct 15, 2017 07:07:29 pm
      I honestly think I'm seeing another player sometimes.

      I think he's absolutely superb. Pressures players excellently, wins the ball back more than the rest of our team combined nearly. Has a good passing range, the 'always passes sideways' argument is not valid and has been proven to not be valid. You can say 'stats don't tell the whole story' all you want but having the highest average pass length of all our midfielders and most passes into the final third by a country mile seems pretty clear to me.

      Against United he's getting so much stick for an excellent performance. He was in complete control of that game and never looked unnerved. His job is very very clearly; win the ball back, pass it to our 'creators'. He is in charge of making sure we have the ball, and he's damn good at it. If we judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it doesn't hold well. We are asking Henderson to do things that he's not in the team to do. He's an easy target, 'We need to talk about Henderson' utter bollocks. All we've been doing is talking about Henderson, we have 3 threads full of abuse against him. We need to be talking about our so called 'match winners' they're the ones not doing their job, not Henderson.

      Isn't it sweet that Henderson checks out this forum or at least a member of his family does, and to anser your question yes you most certainly must be watching a different game to everyone else, Henderson is the weak link in the team almost all attacks slow down through him and he just offers absolutely f all in attack which is kind of sh*t in an attacking team, even Matip looks better than him going forwards ffs! I'll admit that he is is ok at winning the ball back and pressing but we need a number 6 who can do much much more than just that.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #44: Oct 15, 2017 07:50:28 pm
      i clicked like on this.

      What was Rodger's lowest moment;

      a) Replaced Suarez with Lambert.
      b) Signed Mignolet.
      c) Made Henderson captain.
      d) Sterling publicly said he left because of him.

      One  things is for sure, Rodgers has character.

      It's funny that the people who defended Henderson when I said he should not be captain, now don't even want him at the club.
      « Last Edit: Oct 15, 2017 07:56:34 pm by Ribapuru »
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #45: Oct 15, 2017 07:57:38 pm

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