We need to talk about Henderson...

Not being a ass here, but Have you played sport at a competitive level before...?
Fatigue can sets in to everyone at some stage, but it does not transpire that everyone will just come to a stop so many months after they gain match fitness, nor does it mean that a player need to have a two year break...

Look at Dirk Kuyt for instances... He ran non stop every game for Liverpool, never needed a break...

When I played I wanted to play every game and did. Never felt tried, chased everything...

Yes Bobby has came back from the World Cup looking jaded, but was that down to playing at the World Cup itself...? When so many others Premier League players who progress further that Brazil seem to come back raring to go.

I am not against rotating and keep as many player match fit as possible after all you never know when you need to call upon them... But what you are implying makes little to no sense

oh my F***ing days.

This is like saying "I played the recorder in my bedroom, so I'm fully qualified to tell you all about the London Philharmonic  Orchestra".

Utterly ridiculous.

Top players play at a level you can't even dream of.

What a stupid, fatuous comment.

Poor game against Sevilla, like many others since we squandered a 3-0 lead.

Fact is he plays well the vast majority of the time, the times he doesn't are usually poor team performances but everyone comes right back to this bullshit thread year after year.

He had a bad game yesterday, as did many others, we won though which is the most important thing.

I've never seen anything like it, blinders go up for anything good he does and magnifying glasses come out for any faults. I don't see the need for it, especially when time after time the numbers show what I've been saying for years; the man's a top quality player. You can say stats don't show the whole picture, which is fair, however they certainly help paint it.

This thread is up there with the fsg and rafa threads

Ok lets break it down into dates for you as that may help you out a little

First a little bit of  background though - Klopp likes his midfield to play a very high intense game , lots of energy and movement joining in with the high press as well as covering 3 maybe 4 positions on the pitch as players flood forward so one of the key attributes for this is fitness and stamina. Its what the team struggled with last year due to lack of replacements on the bench so the same three where physically shot by the time the end of the season happened.

So onto the timeline

1st July - Pre season starts with a good number of players arriving - at the same time Henderson is at the World Cup still playing - no rest since the end of the season

for the next 5 weeks the team play multiple friendlies as well a a full pre season program

5th August - Henderson comes back 3 weeks after England leave the World Cup - he is now 5 weeks behind everyone else in regards pre season training , he has taken no part in any pre season training - plays 20 minutes against Torino.

12th August - Despite only having 1 week of fitness training ( and still 5 weeks behind everyone else)Klopp still picked Henderson on the bench

Now onto present day - Henderson has now had about 4 weeks of training ( pre season is around 5/6 weeks ) so you would think he is getting there now , i suspect more training away with England and more minutes will get him there or there abouts so you would expect after the Break and barring nay set backs Henderson will be playing more than likely week in week out with Keita and one other

Hopefully but actually looking at Hendersons pre season you can see the reason why he hasnt been starting - what other managers do with their players is up to them but you can bet anyone that hasnt been able to have a good rest and gone straight into the team will at one stage suffer fatigue or injury. Look at AA - he didnt play many games at the WC so decided to come back early reducing his rest- he is already looking a bit tired so early in the season, he will need to be watched and i expect the manager to rest him soon enough - the club spend millions on fitness coaches to ensure the players are in peak fitness for a much of the season as possible - you appear to be suspect about that , why not send them your CV

This is straight from the managers mouth

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/310728-Jürgen-klopp-jordan-henderson-liverpool

You can give him a shout if you wish to tell him how wrong he is

Would you not say that Sterling and Walker at Citeh, Trippier, Ali and Kane at Spurs also all play a high tempo pressing game? You see I simply cannot fathom why Henderson would be so much further behind in match fitness than they all are, you have yet to explain that apart from some nonsense about them all becoming burned out by December which we'll just have to wait and see.
In any case IF Henderson isn't match fit then why the hell would he be picked by Klopp, its not like he doesn't have other options on the bench.

I think the reality is that Henderson is more or less match fit but he had another one of his poor games and/or he's simply not that good.

I said show me the facts to back up claims. You got anything to prove him right? If not jog on Rib 2.0.

Have you got any facts to prove your point? Actually I'm not even sure what your point is to be honest as most of your posts get drowned out in your infantile swearing and abuse of other posters.

Here is a stat - played 4 won 4 and Henderson has been involved in all 4 - anything else is irrelevant.

Has he?? Did he play against West Ham?

yes i have 

The issue with a lot of players is that lack of real brak to recharge batteries , sportsmen cant just keep going and going - even Kuyt needed a break after the season to recharge , the body isnt a machine that just keeps going and going - it will break own soon enough. When it breaks down will obviously be different for people but thats why the clubs employ highly qualified fitness and nutrition coaches.

Mate players get a break post season. Don't know how long...Guesting a month, But if some one can help me out with that...
The early part of Per -season is a little work out really, so it equates to two  months or so a years.  Or every other year given the Euro/World Cup, and less now with all the other Tournaments FIFA are arranging...
But Remember Klopp had to tell Firmino etc to take a break after the WC, they wanted to come straight back

Bobby didnt really play much during the World Cup and then went on a little break , it was disappointing for him as well as the CL so he may well also be mentally tired but he is getting sharper. A lot of the England/French/belguim players came back on a high so they are currently riding that crest of a wave of emotions whilst there match sharpness and fitness wont be at their peak but there will come a stage during the season where they will run out of energy and coast to the end on empty - most of them havent had a real decent break and some not for a good couple of years.

Ok I'll give you that point, there is the mentally fatigue side to it

We have seen it plenty of times where teams have dropped off after Jan/feb - when you look at those teams its more than likely because they have a strong 11 that they have played every week so those players start to suffer. We had it last year when we started to suffer fatigue because we had no real cover on the bench so the same players were playing in the CL and then in the Prem. It takes a hell of a squad to challenge on two big fronts - its looking like we have a squad along with City that can challenge.

That I believe has more to do with...

a) many more matches over a short a period (every three days or so)

b) The weathers effect on the body (The cold and damp)

c) Winter aliments and the bodies immunity to them

d) how all of the above effects the bodies regenerate

Yes during the December/January period a large squad would help, but that is then... Henderson should be weeks a head in fitness and mentally fitness than those Liverpool players who did not play in the World Cup

Would you not say that Sterling and Walker at Citeh, Trippier, Ali and Kane at Spurs also all play a high tempo pressing game? You see I simply cannot fathom why Henderson would be so much further behind in match fitness than they all are, you have yet to explain that apart from some nonsense about them all becoming burned out by December which we'll just have to wait and see.
In any case IF Henderson isn't match fit then why the hell would he be picked by Klopp, its not like he doesn't have other options on the bench.

I think the reality is that Henderson is more or less match fit but he had another one of his poor games and/or he's simply not that good.

Are you that dense or being deliberately stupid  ? Who gives a sh*t if the Spurs manager wants to put his players into the team without any pre season - that too me suggests the team doesn’t have the same level of squad depth or that as some of them are younger have higher levels of fitness already - maybe the Spurs manager believes his players will reach their fitness playing the games , Klopp is seems wants to do it differently - if you can’t fathom that then I’m sorry but football isn’t for you

It’s been four games you spanner , Henderson has come on every game and started the last one - you make it sound like Klopp has resigned him to the reserves - KLOPP IS PLAYING HENDERSON , he started him on the bench whilst the players who had a full pre season started the first few games and now Klopp has him in the team.

People like you are making out that Henderson isn’t starting the first couple of games because he doesn’t rate him or he had a poor game when the manager himself has already said the other were ahead of him in terms of match fitness/sharpness because they had a full pre season. If you can’t understand that concept then stick to playing with dolls

Pretty sure Henderson was resting whilst other players were in warm up games. This fatigue after such a long rest is garbage from Hender Defenders.

My position on Henderson has always been......Wonderful athlete but not a highly skilled soccer player.
Fluid runner, big motor, covers lots of ground, best work in the defensive half.
Lacks refinement in ball handling and precision passing. Some success with deep balls.
Intangibles: leadership and results with him on the field
Never a star....but an important cog

Yesterday....an ideal day to knock some rust off given the depleted state of Leicester.
And given the brutal 7 game /23 day stretch ahead (6 quality opponents), getting Henderson some meaningful playing time was the right call.

Only thing that I would disagree with here is that Klopp could have started Keita and given Henderson the second 45 mins... Also believe he should have given both Sturridge and Shaqiri 45 mins too for Salah and Bobby... Shaqiri was always going to be up for it as he has something to prove

Its not weird - its been explained a few times but i guess ignored

How long do you think they will last this season - come jan/feb they will be physically shot , Kane is going to be shot mid season - he hasnt had a meaningful break for 2 years now

Spurs dont have much option but to play those guys - they have a lack of strength in depth , Maguire is going to play every game for them flogging him to death

What garbage. Spurs play their best players. If they get tired, the pysio will rest them when that happens. I'm sure a big football club has more tactical knowledge than you Lallana in Pajamas. You are just predicting a burnout to justify Henderson unfit argument, when he's not unfit he's just average at a much above average side.

Mate players get a break post season. Don't know how long...Guesting a month, But if some one can help me out with that...
The early part of Per -season is a little work out really, so it equates to two  months or so a years.  Or every other year given the Euro/World Cup, and less now with all the other Tournaments FIFA are arranging...
But Remember Klopp had to tell Firmino etc to take a break after the WC, they wanted to come straight back
Ok I'll give you that point, there is the mentally fatigue side to it
That I believe has more to do with...

a) many more matches over a short a period (every three days or so)

b) The weathers effect on the body (The cold and damp)

c) Winter aliments and the bodies immunity to them

d) how all of the above effects the bodies regenerate

Yes during the December/January period a large squad would help, but that is then... Henderson should be weeks a head in fitness and mentally fitness than those Liverpool players who did not play in the World Cup

Henderson played in the CL Final then I think had a couple days off then went to England and was playing 8 days later in a friendly Pre World Cup. Players that didn’t go to the World Cup had 5 to 6 weeks off after the season until July - Henderson and others didn’t have any time off until after the World Cup so their season was extended by about 6 weeks

So whilst Henderson is at the World Cup all the other players have a break then they come back and do all the Pre season stuff which is essential to the season ahead - when Henderson finishes the World Cup he then has 4 weeks off resting - during that period he loses match fitness and sharpness ( or indeed any player who went to the World Cup ) - he then returns to the club 4 weeks behind everyone in terms of fitness and match sharpness and will take time to get that back

This is basic stuff at the end of the day - clubs spend millions on fitness coaches for this exact stuff , they arrange pre season friendless for this  - a manager won’t put a player in without that match sharpness unless he has too or his squad isn’t strong enough. Players need breaks - they aren’t mechanical machines - they need their batteries recharging to get back to the season fresh

What garbage. Spurs play their best players. If they get tired, the pysio will rest them when that happens. I'm sure a big football club has more tactical knowledge than you Lallana in Pajamas. You are just predicting a burnout to justify Henderson unfit argument, when he's not unfit he's just average at a much above average side.

My god you don’t have talk a lot of sh*te - I did take you for an intelligent person - seems i am wrong. You do understand why clubs have a pre season don’t you - what do you think happens to a player who misses that pre season , do you think he has the same level of match fitness ( a world of difference to someone being unfit ) and their match sharpness. Why do you think clubs have these pre season friendlies ( which Henderson missed whilst being away at the World Cup and then on a break ) - why do you think Bobby has looked a little flat. Each player needs a break and then each player needs a pre season and a time to regain that match fitness and sharpness and I do indeed speak from someone that is involved in coaching at a high level in sport and has had to help carefully plan a pre season program

But as said to the other nugget - the manager is playing Henderson so as you said - the club/manager has more tactical knowledge than you

oh my f**king days.

This is like saying "I played the recorder in my bedroom, so I'm fully qualified to tell you all about the London Philharmonic  Orchestra".

Utterly ridiculous.

Top players play at a level you can't even dream of.

What a stupid, fatuous comment.

As stupid as claiming your 50 years plus of supporting LFC gave you a greater insight to all things Liverpool than anyone else...? Or Claiming that Klopp had Sturrigde put on weight to help ward of injuries...?   

As stupid as claiming your 50 years plus of supporting LFC gave you a greater insight to all things Liverpool than anyone else...? Or Claiming that Klopp had Sturrigde put on weight to help ward of injuries...?   

Hmm, build muscle to help against injuries, wow such a radical concept never done before in the history of sports.

Go play your recorder with the Philharmonic.

Henderson played in the CL Final then I think had a couple days off then went to England and was playing 8 days later in a friendly Pre World Cup. Players that didn’t go to the World Cup had 5 to 6 weeks off after the season until July - Henderson and others didn’t have any time off until after the World Cup so their season was extended by about 6 weeks

So whilst Henderson is at the World Cup all the other players have a break then they come back and do all the Pre season stuff which is essential to the season ahead - when Henderson finishes the World Cup he then has 4 weeks off resting - during that period he loses match fitness and sharpness ( or indeed any player who went to the World Cup ) - he then returns to the club 4 weeks behind everyone in terms of fitness and match sharpness and will take time to get that back

This is basic stuff at the end of the day - clubs spend millions on fitness coaches for this exact stuff , they arrange pre season friendless for this  - a manager won’t put a player in without that match sharpness unless he has too or his squad isn’t strong enough. Players need breaks - they aren’t mechanical machines - they need their batteries recharging to get back to the season fresh

And what were players like Arron Ramsey been doing since the end of the premier league and the start of per-season train...?

Henderson had five-six weeks playing WC, Keeping up his fitness levels. so even if he then had a month of he should still be a week or two ahead of players like Ramsey... Ramsey would have had six week plus of doing nothing where as Henderson only four

Hmm, build muscle to help against injuries, wow such a radical concept never done before in the history of sports.

Go play your recorder with the Philharmonic.

You do not bulk up your upper body to help with problems with your legs... Or maybe you did thats why the walk you when on took so long.... 

And what were players like Arron Ramsey been doing since the end of the premier league and the start of per-season train...?

Henderson had five-six weeks playing WC, Keeping up his fitness levels. so even if he then had a month of he should still be a week or two ahead of players like Ramsey... Ramsey would have had six week plus of doing nothing where as Henderson only four

So you're saying Klopp is either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about, and that you know better.

Got it.

And what were players like Arron Ramsey been doing since the end of the premier league and the start of per-season train...?

Henderson had five-six weeks playing WC, Keeping up his fitness levels. so even if he then had a month of he should still be a week or two ahead of players like Ramsey... Ramsey would have had six week plus of doing nothing where as Henderson only four

Ramsey would have been on holiday resting and recharging batteries , the longer break the most the batteries are recharged.  Henderson was playing at the World Cup at the end of a very long season where players are already tired ( hence why they are bringing in a mid season break ) - Henderson playing longer and having less of a break doesn’t mean his fitness levels are higher - it’s not some sort of accumulation of weeks playing.

Players at the end of the season ( if they have played the whole season ) are right at the end of their fuel tank - they are ready to just stop and need the break to recharge- anyone going to the World Cup just extends that last little bit of energy.

This is just basic match fitness stuff and why clubs have pre season - any football fan knows this stuff

Klopp has said that players returning from World Cup were behind in their level of match fitness and sharpness compared to players who had a break then Pre season

So you're saying Klopp is either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about, and that you know better.

Got it.

If he did say that then YES on both counts...

And btw did you think that you bring Klopp in to the agreement would make me back down?
Read some of the thing i've said about Rafa, Kenny and Klopp in the past...

Ramsey would have been on holiday resting and recharging batteries ,

That's my point... Henderson should be nearer his full fitness at the start of the season than Ramsey

If he did say that then YES on both counts...

And btw did you think that you bring Klopp in to the agreement would make me back down?
Read some of the thing i've said about Rafa, Kenny and Klopp in the past...

And there we have it folks, this arrogant shyster knows more about players and professional football than some of the best coaches in the world.
 

That's my point... Henderson should be nearer his full fitness at the start of the season than Ramsey

No he shouldn’t be - Ramsey had longer to rest a recharge and then build up the match sharpness after the rest - it needs to be built back up

Henderson has the rest but not as long so his batteries aren’t as recharged and then he needs to build the match sharpness and fitness back up again.

This really is basic Pre season match fitness - all football fans should understand it

Have you got any facts to prove your point? Actually I'm not even sure what your point is to be honest as most of your posts get drowned out in your infantile swearing and abuse of other posters.

Posted them many times, have a look through this thread, you'll find them.

Swearing isn't infantile by the way, babies don't swear too much last time I checked. Nice try though A for effort.