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      ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems

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      Pippen
      • Forum Ian St John
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      ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      : Oct 14, 2017 08:29:17 pm »
      ManCity is on fire, 7 goals today again. Is there somebody who follows them and can tell me & others if they play the same system like Klopp or a different one and what are the main differences? Is there a system-atic reason for all their goals or just coincidence/more talent?
      HScRed1
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #1 : Oct 14, 2017 08:32:07 pm »
      A £1B investement.

      Close the thread.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      • YNWA
      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #2 : Oct 14, 2017 08:35:35 pm »
      A £1B investement.

      Close the thread.

      DanMann
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #3 : Oct 14, 2017 10:35:15 pm »
      Too early to get a full analysis of today's game, but found a summary here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlLtBPVsHiM

      Have seen the goals from today, and a lot of them involve quick passing, movement, and great decision making. Man City are fast flowing and aggressive going forward. They are what we are supposed to be. They are playing the 'heavy metal football'.

      Other's will have the full tactics and game analysis, but from what I read it seems that Guardiola changes formations from game to game. Generally in a similar shape to us. Attacking front three with pace either side of the central forward: Sterling and Sane.

      Yes, they have quality. But much more than us? I don't think so. Sterling & Sane = Mane & Salah. Kevin De Bruyne = Coutinho. I recall the match discussion during our game against City, and many then put our loss down to Mane's red card. So, do our fans really think Man City players are significantly better than us?

      Yes, they have the money. But the money doesn't win everything. They didn't last season! They have the right players, in the right places, and they go for it. Notice for example that today they conceded 2 goals and the gap closed to 3-2. Sounds like us right? Then boom! 4 more goals. 7-2. Our lads get nervous. We struggle to hold on to a 1 goal advantage. City conceded, but still took the game and stormed on.

      Some will not like my mention of this, but one significant difference with City and us. Striker. Today they played Jesus. He scored two goals. He's a striker. He can finish. When he is not on, they have Aguero. Who do we have? In the same position, we have Firmino. Firmino has not scored for 5 games. 309 minutes without a goal since the Arsenal game. I constantly say it, but what we need is a Striker. Quality to score the goals.

      So in my opinion, the biggest difference is they play faster (more aggressive), they are currently hugely confident (we all know how important form is), and they are scoring all over. Across the team they are getting goals. Significantly, they play a Striker. Finally, Guardiola seems to be getting his tactics spot on. Klopp is really struggling at the moment.
      bigmick
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #4 : Oct 14, 2017 10:40:12 pm »
      I know, we've got FSG as owners so lets compare how we're getting along with a team which spends billions of quid? I just don't get the comparison at all.
      DanMann
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #5 : Oct 14, 2017 10:45:35 pm »
      I know, we've got FSG as owners so lets compare how we're getting along with a team which spends billions of quid? I just don't get the comparison at all.

      So was it game over from the start? Is that really what it's all about?

      Not at all. It's about how you use the players. 

      Both Man City and Liverpool are supposed to play a similar style of football so I think the question is valid.
      DanMann
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #6 : Oct 14, 2017 11:52:59 pm »
      Seems like a few guys on the forum are a bit touchy at the moment and get real defensive real quick.

      Consideration was given to Man City's playing style and how we compare - and it got shot down pretty quickly.. because Man City have money. Guess that rules out any consideration of Man Utd or Chelsea. Who do we compare to then? That's another question really.

      Too early to get a full analysis of today's game (City vs Stoke), but a lot of the goals involved quick passing, movement, and great decision making. Man City are fast flowing and aggressive going forward. They are what we are supposed to be. They are playing the 'heavy metal football'.

      Other's will have the full tactics and game analysis, but from what I read it seems that Guardiola changes formations from game to game. Generally in a similar shape to us. Attacking front three with pace either side of the central forward: Sterling and Sane.

      Yes, they have quality. But much more than us? I don't think so. Sterling & Sane = Mane & Salah. Kevin De Bruyne = Coutinho. I recall the match discussion during our game against City, and many then put our loss down to Mane's red card. So, do our fans really think Man City players are significantly better than us?

      Yes, they have the money. But the money doesn't win everything. They didn't last season! They have the right players, in the right places, and they go for it. Notice for example that today they conceded 2 goals and the gap closed to 3-2. Sounds like us right? Then boom! 4 more goals. 7-2. Our lads get nervous. We struggle to hold on to a 1 goal advantage. City conceded, but still took the game and stormed on.

      Some will not like my mention of this, but one significant difference with City and us. Striker. Today they played Jesus. He scored two goals. He's a striker. He can finish. When he is not on, they have Aguero. Who do we have? In the same position, we have Firmino. Firmino has not scored for 5 games. 309 minutes without a goal since the Arsenal game. I constantly say it, but what we need is a Striker. Quality to score the goals.

      So in my opinion, the biggest difference is they play faster (more aggressive), they are currently hugely confident (we all know how important form is), and they are scoring all over. Across the team they are getting goals. Significantly, they play a Striker. Finally, Guardiola seems to be getting his tactics spot on. Klopp is really struggling at the moment.

      Then look at our game with Utd, and we see Mourinho came out for a draw and successfully got what he wanted. We still struggle with breaking down defensive sides. Think it's fair to say we are not getting our own tactics right.
      Danzel
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      Re: Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #7 : Oct 15, 2017 01:47:40 am »
      Consideration was given to Man City's playing style and how we compare - and it got shot down pretty quickly.. because Man City have money. Guess that rules out any consideration of Man Utd or Chelsea. Who do we compare to then? That's another question really.

      Not too sure why it got shot down either, it was a question with regards to comparing systems being played, not how much money was spent. It's an interesting question really. I've been reading up on Guardiola and his system, the way he sees football and his tactics in general for quite a while now. He is a bit of a crazy genius really. I think I understand the basics of it and I'll try to explain a few things of it, hopefully I make sense.

      Klopp's and Guardiola's systems and tactics are completely different, but they start from the same ideas and have the same goal: dominate the ball, a lot of movement, tactically versatile players / players being able to play different positions and pressing.

      He has two starting formations (his formations are very flexible and change a lot during the game). When everyone is fit, he seems to prefer a 3-5-2. Sometimes he plays a 4-3-3 that often changes to some kind of 4-1-3-2 with one of the wingers (often Sterling) coming more central and playing next to the striker and the other winger tucking in a bit too.



      Basically he divides the pitch in different lanes (5) / zones both vertically and horizontally. Vertically you'd have the wing, halfspace, center, halfspace, wing. No more than three players in any horizontal zone and no more than two players in any vertical zone is the rule.



      On the left you see an image of that in game from FC Utrecht, they are managed by ten Hag, who worked with Guardiola at Bayern Munich when he managed their reserves. The system he uses is similar, but not the exact same. It just visualises well what the different lanes / zones are. On the right you see the training pitch Guardiola uses for the system.

      The idea is to try and get Silva and De Bruyne on the ball in the halfspaces. Their teammates create space for them by making movements in the vertical (stretching the pitch vertically to be able to play between the lines) and horizontal zones (sideways movement to open up vertical passing lanes). The movement is complex and has to be drilled really well. You often see De Bruyne and Silva making the decisive pass, breaking the lines, right before the assist.

      What you also often see in City games is that both wingers, very often Sane and Sterling or the wingbacks, are playing very, very wide and hugging the sidelines. When Silva and De Bruyne get on the ball, you see Sane and Sterling making lateral / slighty diagonal runs in behind the opposition defence. De Bruyne and Silva are brilliant at playing these weighted balls straight through the lines. With the movement opening up the vertical passing lanes, both players are able to play in Sterling or Sane who have plenty of pace to get in behind the opposition defence and then lay it off for a tap in for the strikers. You see City scoring very often from this kind of move.

      Here is Henry explaining some of it from his time at Barcelona:

      https://vimeo.com/149800624

      Notice how wide the wide players play (Henry, Villa, Pedro) and when they come in and then watch City and how Sterling and Sane are doing the exact same and making the same movements. Both players have scored and assisted a lot already this season because of that. We have quite a few players who could fit that same system, but I think we don't have the midfielders to play the system.

      Here's a very interesting, in depth, article about Guardiola before he arrived at City:

      https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/long-read-guardiolas-16-point-blueprint-dominance-his-methods-management-and-tactics?page=0%2C1

      Watch some of the training videos too, it's really interesting.

      It shows how complex football can be and why it takes managers like Guardiola and Klopp longer to get their ideas / tactics across than other managers. Both managers have complex, high intensity systems. It's the reason why some of our players still struggle with the system or just don't fit the sytem. Guardiola had the advantage he could go out and buy as many players as he wanted for whatever price to get them to fit his system. Klopp is still replacing players and has to bring in replacements more gradually, which is why it's taking longer. People say the system is the problem, while it isn't. Put the wrong players in Guardiola's system (last season) and it doesn't work either. That doesn't mean the system is the problem, it's the personnel.
      « Last Edit: Oct 15, 2017 01:57:11 am by Danzel »
      DanMann
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      Re: Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #8 : Oct 16, 2017 08:56:25 am »
      Thanks Danzel. Was waiting for someone to give a proper analysis  ;)

      The setup of the players does look interesting.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #9 : Oct 16, 2017 09:14:21 am »
      Whilst we fork out 35m for Salah, now one of our best players... He's far from perfect. We lack depth.. that's why an injury to Mane is so damaging. It's not the first time either... It's just ignored and not fixed. United have no qualms about paying 75m for Lukaku, City spend money so players don't want to leave. If Aguero came to here instead of City he'd be a Barca player by now. It's investment... Money rules in football. FSG make safe sensible profits with low risk investments, finishing fourth and a league cup win will be the high points if such a methodology.

      Alex Oxland Chamberlain good? No... But he has resale value.
      Roberstson any good? Not good enough for us, but he was cheap and can be resold.

      FSG aren't going to compete, keeping Coutinho was not a show of ambition, he'll be sold for 150m eventually.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #10 : Oct 16, 2017 04:37:48 pm »
      FSG aren't going to compete, keeping Coutinho was not a show of ambition, he'll be sold for 150m eventually.

      We could get more than that if we can get PSG interested!!

      3rdJune1892
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #11 : Oct 16, 2017 04:38:04 pm »

      Yes, they have quality. But much more than us? I don't think so. Sterling & Sane = Mane & Salah. Kevin De Bruyne = Coutinho. I recall the match discussion during our game against City, and many then put our loss down to Mane's red card. So, do our fans really think Man City players are significantly better than us?


      De Bruyne looks on a different level to everyone at the moment. Coutinho included. The two crosses for Jesus and Sane on Saturday were brilliant but what impressed me most was he won the ball first then created the space to cross. My own personal yardstick when comparing players is if offered the swap would i take it. If offered De Bruyne for Coutinho, I'd snap their hand off.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #12 : Oct 16, 2017 04:53:24 pm »
      The frankenstein's monster of threads
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #13 : Oct 16, 2017 05:28:44 pm »
      Seems like a few guys on the forum are a bit touchy at the moment and get real defensive real quick.

      Consideration was given to Man City's playing style and how we compare - and it got shot down pretty quickly.. because Man City have money. Guess that rules out any consideration of Man Utd or Chelsea. Who do we compare to then? That's another question really.

      Too early to get a full analysis of today's game (City vs Stoke), but a lot of the goals involved quick passing, movement, and great decision making. Man City are fast flowing and aggressive going forward. They are what we are supposed to be. They are playing the 'heavy metal football'.

      Other's will have the full tactics and game analysis, but from what I read it seems that Guardiola changes formations from game to game. Generally in a similar shape to us. Attacking front three with pace either side of the central forward: Sterling and Sane.

      Yes, they have quality. But much more than us? I don't think so. Sterling & Sane = Mane & Salah. Kevin De Bruyne = Coutinho. I recall the match discussion during our game against City, and many then put our loss down to Mane's red card. So, do our fans really think Man City players are significantly better than us?

      Yes, they have the money. But the money doesn't win everything. They didn't last season! They have the right players, in the right places, and they go for it. Notice for example that today they conceded 2 goals and the gap closed to 3-2. Sounds like us right? Then boom! 4 more goals. 7-2. Our lads get nervous. We struggle to hold on to a 1 goal advantage. City conceded, but still took the game and stormed on.

      Some will not like my mention of this, but one significant difference with City and us. Striker. Today they played Jesus. He scored two goals. He's a striker. He can finish. When he is not on, they have Aguero. Who do we have? In the same position, we have Firmino. Firmino has not scored for 5 games. 309 minutes without a goal since the Arsenal game. I constantly say it, but what we need is a Striker. Quality to score the goals.

      So in my opinion, the biggest difference is they play faster (more aggressive), they are currently hugely confident (we all know how important form is), and they are scoring all over. Across the team they are getting goals. Significantly, they play a Striker. Finally, Guardiola seems to be getting his tactics spot on. Klopp is really struggling at the moment.

      Then look at our game with Utd, and we see Mourinho came out for a draw and successfully got what he wanted. We still struggle with breaking down defensive sides. Think it's fair to say we are not getting our own tactics right.

      Good post, but the name you leave out of this is David Silva. I know he is 31, but he is as good technically as anyone in the Premiership. I find in looking at their goals this season that he is repeatedly involved in some key way to the buildup, if not providing the final ball. While Phil is of tremendous quality, I don't see him playing that killer pass all that often.
      Pippen
      • Forum Ian St John
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      Re: ManCity vs. LFC, comparisons of the systems
      Reply #14 : Oct 17, 2017 01:09:14 am »


      So in my opinion, the biggest difference is they play faster (more aggressive)

      That's what I call vertical offense (in comparision to horizontal offense). Klopp tells his players to stay patient and therefore basically propagates a horizontal offense where you don't wanna play aggressive towards the goal to not give the ball away too easily. It works and it works better than any vertical offense if you have geniuses like Barca did with Messi and Iniesta. But we don't have these guys. I just see the game against ManU as a classical example: You play 90min. with 60% ball possession and 2 high probability chances. That's just inefficent, because I could play 1950's kick and rush and would get the same result.

      One idea right off the bat would be to tell our players to try going into the box with the ball more to force things. First, it can work and then you are 5m before the goal, second you can always pull a foul, i.e. penalty, thirdly, even if you lose the ball some other player could re-catch the ball, the whole idea of Gegenpressing.

      Today I heard an expert talk and one of them said that Klopp's system is already outdated. But then they didn't let Didi (Hamann) answer and changed the topic.  :f_wah: I hear more and more expert people challenging Klopp's system, not LFC's talent, just because his system indeed seems to be inefficent on offense (see above) and dangerous for the defense because of fast breaks that are especially disastrous in his system. And If you look at his goal ratio the problems are confirmed: we don't score a lot of goals, but we do get a good share of goals.

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