Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????

On one hand this would be seen as a weakness on Jürgen's part but on the other a strong decision to get some help.

I would like to be a fly on the wall if Carra was to let rip at this shower of shitte defence, i don't think there would be many defencive players that would make the same mistake more than once.  I remember when Carra told Agger that he was not concussed and had to play on and Agger still played better than this lot while seeing double!!

Why can we not find a player that can just defend?  this is not just Jürgen, it has been at the club for a few years now.  I had hoped that Jürgen would have sorted it by now.

YNWA

Don't know if he should but if I was Carra then I would offer my services (it is possible he has offered it already).

Also, since this is a long term problem, perhaps getting Steve Clark in might not be a bad idea. I think Clark worked with the King when he was the manager taking over from Hogson.

BTW: Someone described Liverpool as follows


but I think they were being generous. The midfield is just as bad as defence and offence is not that good. 

This winds me up no end.

Carragher is a local hero no doubt, a true Liverpool legend. As a player though he was bang average and that's the harsh but brutal truth of it. It cannot be questioned that he didn't put his body on the line for us and give it everything he had in every single game and that's why I'll always love him but no way was he ever this fantastic brilliant defender because he just wasn't.

Its a myth he was this super organiser. He was at the heart of our defensive problems for many years.  He performed his very best for us in the season Sami partnered him and if I remember rightly we conceded the fewest goals in the league that year. But I remember only too well how shambolic his partnership with Skrtel was and at times Agger too.

The same type of goals we concede now we conceded every week with him and Agger or Skrtel at the back. The likes of Droga, Zamora, Kevin Davies bullied them constantly.

But anyway, whether you agree with me or not on that, you can't just bring somebody like Carragher in and say sort this defence out. It goes way beyond just the back four. You have to defend as a team, so you have to completely change your style, set up and even how you attack too.

If I was to guess, id say carragher would have us set up the way Rafa did, every man behind the ball and make it very difficult for the opposition to beat us, while having flair players in attack who can win you a game. That's just not in Klopps nature.

As frustrated as I get sometimes, I prefer and love klopps methods too. We might be off form at the minute but its all so worth it when we smash Arsenal at home 4-0 and the football he has us playing at times.

We aren't that far away with Klopp. The way we play is fine, its exceptional at times actually, he just needs a few better players than the ones he currently has.

 

This winds me up no end.

Carragher is a local hero no doubt, a true Liverpool legend. As a player though he was bang average and that's the harsh but brutal truth of it. It cannot be questioned that he didn't put his body on the line for us and give it everything he had in every single game and that's why I'll always love him but no way was he ever this fantastic brilliant defender because he just wasn't.

Its a myth he was this super organiser. He was at the heart of our defensive problems for many years.  He performed his very best for us in the season Sami partnered him and if I remember rightly we conceded the fewest goals in the league that year. But I remember only too well how shambolic his partnership with Skrtel was and at times Agger too.

The same type of goals we concede now we conceded every week with him and Agger or Skrtel at the back. The likes of Droga, Zamora, Kevin Davies bullied them constantly.

But anyway, whether you agree with me or not on that, you can't just bring somebody like Carragher in and say sort this defence out. It goes way beyond just the back four. You have to defend as a team, so you have to completely change your style, set up and even how you attack too.

If I was to guess, id say carragher would have us set up the way Rafa did, every man behind the ball and make it very difficult for the opposition to beat us, while having flair players in attack who can win you a game. That's just not in Klopps nature.

As frustrated as I get sometimes, I prefer and love klopps methods too. We might be off form at the minute but its all so worth it when we smash Arsenal at home 4-0 and the football he has us playing at times.

We aren't that far away with Klopp. The way we play is fine, its exceptional at times actually, he just needs a few better players than the ones he currently has.

 

A truly ridiculous thing to say.

And as to the thread - no. Jürgen shouldn't be asking someone who prefers punditry over coaching to sort our issues out.

A truly ridiculous thing to say.

And as to the thread - no. Jürgen shouldn't be asking someone who prefers punditry over coaching to sort our issues out.

Why is it ridiculous?

Put a physical forward up against either Carragher or Agger and they crumbled. Both were awful in the air.

Why is it ridiculous?

Put a physical forward up against either Carragher or Agger and they crumbled. Both were awful in the air.

I agree that they weren't the best but they were a hell of a lot better than the crap we have now, and Cara's abilities as a player is not a reflection of how good he could be as a coach, a very good illustration of this is that none of Maureen, Rafa, Wenger or Klopp were very good players but all have been great coaches at one time or another.

I agree that they weren't the best but they were a hell of a lot better than the crap we have now, and Cara's abilities as a player is not a reflection of how good he could be as a coach, a very good illustration of this is that none of Maureen, Rafa, Wenger or Klopp were very good players but all have been great coaches at one time or another.

I disagree personally.

If Carragher was playing in our back line now alongside either Agger or Skrtel then I'm convinced we would still be conceding from set pieces/direct balls into the box every week.

When a player retires or moves on people quite often forget the flaws they had and only remember the good in them. Quite often you get people saying Riise was a great full back for us for example. He wasn't, he was terrible at defending and believe me I remember being in the car on the way home from the match every single week and the football phone ins would blow up with people ranting about him. But fans remember his great goals and how often he praises the club and the city and they have fooled themselves into thinking he was this great left back for us - he wasn't, he was average in truth and wouldn't have got a game for any top side back then.

Its similar to carragher. I always see people label him as this great organiser and leader but he wasn't. Some of the goals we conceded when carragher was playing were every bit as comical now.

I do not question one bit that he had fight, he had spirit and he had passion which is something he could inject into some of our lads. He wasn't a great defender though, just average in my opinion.

We will never know how good he is at a coach until he takes a role up. Neville was a brilliant player it has to be said, and he talks a good game on sky sports too, but he failed miserably in his first coaching/managerial role.

This winds me up no end.

Carragher is a local hero no doubt, a true Liverpool legend. As a player though he was bang average and that's the harsh but brutal truth of it. It cannot be questioned that he didn't put his body on the line for us and give it everything he had in every single game and that's why I'll always love him but no way was he ever this fantastic brilliant defender because he just wasn't.

Its a myth he was this super organiser. He was at the heart of our defensive problems for many years.  He performed his very best for us in the season Sami partnered him and if I remember rightly we conceded the fewest goals in the league that year. But I remember only too well how shambolic his partnership with Skrtel was and at times Agger too.

The same type of goals we concede now we conceded every week with him and Agger or Skrtel at the back. The likes of Droga, Zamora, Kevin Davies bullied them constantly.

But anyway, whether you agree with me or not on that, you can't just bring somebody like Carragher in and say sort this defence out. It goes way beyond just the back four. You have to defend as a team, so you have to completely change your style, set up and even how you attack too.

If I was to guess, id say carragher would have us set up the way Rafa did, every man behind the ball and make it very difficult for the opposition to beat us, while having flair players in attack who can win you a game. That's just not in Klopps nature.

As frustrated as I get sometimes, I prefer and love klopps methods too. We might be off form at the minute but its all so worth it when we smash Arsenal at home 4-0 and the football he has us playing at times.

We aren't that far away with Klopp. The way we play is fine, its exceptional at times actually, he just needs a few better players than the ones he currently has.

 

Each to their own but for me that’s miles off mate, miles.

He’d be the first to tell you he was no Hansen or Lawrenson but he was a very decent defender.

I’d take him in a heartbeat over any our current lot.

Re the OP though - I’m not convinced it would help. Players have to want to defend and truthfully, other than Clyne, I’m not sure any our defenders relish that 1 on 1 thing.

Lolling at the thread.

My point was not to put Carra back in defence, but to have a different opinion on how to solve the problem as he does know the game very well and was a decent defender.  I agree that this has been with us for years and i can't see us winning the league until this is sorted. 

Our midfield is not good enough, maybe Kieta will solve this next season and our attack needs to be more clinical and take their chances.  That being said, if we had a better defence we may just turn defeats into draws and draws into wins.

Rafa was the best at killing games off and getting a result, but not exciting to watch so i would much prefer Jurgens methods to win games.

My point was not to put Carra back in defence, but to have a different opinion on how to solve the problem as he does know the game very well and was a decent defender.  I agree that this has been with us for years and i can't see us winning the league until this is sorted. 

Our midfield is not good enough, maybe Kieta will solve this next season and our attack needs to be more clinical and take their chances.  That being said, if we had a better defence we may just turn defeats into draws and draws into wins.

Rafa was the best at killing games off and getting a result, but not exciting to watch so i would much prefer Jurgens methods to win games.

That's where I think you're wrong. The majority of pundits, that includes Carra, honestly haven't got a clue what they're talking about and are stuck in the time when they were still playing. All they do is point out the obvious and kick in open doors. Modern football is different in a lot of areas.

Klopp was on this show with Carra where they were analysing different situations in which we either conceded a big chance or a goal. Carra said something like:"In this situation, I would do this or would want my defender / full back to do that." Klopp then asked to rewind the whole thing and explained what he wanted the players to do in that specific situation. It was the complete opposite of what Carra thought.

The way we set up, you can't see the defence as a different part / isolated unit of the team, you don't just have the "back four" you can take apart and coach. We defend as a unit, we press as a unit and depending on which pressing system we're playing, it's often the player closest to the ball or in a good position to press, who will press. If that's a full back, then it's a full back and then he will be the one joining the press. If Carra would come in and coach the back four, you'd have situations in which the back four is running back (which is what Carra would do in those situations) while midfield and the rest of the team are pressing, you can't have that.

In my opinion our midfield starters (Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana) as a trio are good enough and offer enough defensive cover. What we see is that whenever one of our two 8's is missing and replaced by Can, Milner or even Coutinho, that we lose a lot of the midfield stability and cover that the three of them provide as a unit. Keita coming in next season and Chamberlain, in time when he gets used to the tactics, should go a long way to solving the midfield problems.

Hmm, our manager who was not only a winning defender but also in the capacity as a 'manager' will turn to our ex player who has no managerial experience how to set up a defence as manger?..

Playing & managing are 2 different animals..

Surely that is a typo!!
Jürgen should be asking JWH&Co to sort the defence out, adding to our one solitary striker (injured) and our spluttering midfield.
Jamie was a solid defender he is not a F***ing miracle worker.

The question should be more like ''Should Jürgen ask FSG why the f*ck they haven't backed him in the transfer market when they said they would? ''
or ''Should the supporters ask FSG where is that 200mil warchest?''
or ''Why isn't there at least a single person with football backround running this club?''
or ''What does *manipulate the transfer* market even mean?''

I don't think we need a defensive coach, just better and the right sort of players for our system. We have to accept that we will never defend like Atletico, Utd & Juventus. We should look more so at the likes of Napoli and City (even Barca & Dortmund back in the days), and ask; what have they got right that we haven't?

They all have a sweeper keepers and that allows their defenders to be more comfortable when playing high. Their midfielders are all composed and comfortable on the ball and can use possession as a form of defensive play (like Napoli), and they all have/had specialists.

Imagine if we had, Ward/Karius, VVD, Gomez and Casemiro/Jorginho, tell me that wouldn't make a huge difference? A Sweeper keeper, central defenders that are pacey, comfortable on the ball and defending a high line. And a defense minded specialist at the hub who can bloody distribute from deep and offer composure, composure that would transcend across the team.

No

For sure he needs help. Be it from Carragher or another person.

Do not know the answer tbh, but something needs to be done. Sorting out the defence must be a priority, to get the side moving in the right direction. Successful sides where always built on a solid defence.

Hmm, our manager who was not only a winning defender but also in the capacity as a 'manager' will turn to our ex player who has no managerial experience how to set up a defence as manger?..

Playing & managing are 2 different animals..

"Winning defender", please explain, because as far as I've read Klopp was a second rate player who never really excelled at the highest level.

For sure he needs help. Be it from Carragher or another person.

The day Jürgen starts consulting people wholly unqualified and below his level in a coaching sense on how to improve his tactics is probably the day he retires. Carragher, as great a player he was for Liverpool, is not qualified. Legendary status as a player doesn't grant you those positions of wisdom.

Why would an ex-defender ask an ex-defender to sort his defence out, especially an ex-defender with no mangerial experience under his belt?

Why would an ex-defender ask an ex-defender to sort his defence out, especially an ex-defender with no mangerial experience under his belt?

Indeed.

It is a bit weird that we are so bad at the back with Jürgen being a defender.

Indeed.

It is a bit weird that we are so bad at the back with Jürgen being a defender.

Didn’t he start as a striker though.....and ended up defending as he lost his legs?

Maybe I assumed that though.....wouldn’t be first time

Indeed.

It is a bit weird that we are so bad at the back with Jürgen being a defender.

It wouldn't be if we had better players. You get what you pay for. Klopp wants us to play on the edge, with a very high line and defensive duties spread throughout the team. If we had a leader back there and better and more experienced Centerback, Fullbacks and a Goalkeeper, it would work and we wouldn't be having these conversations. I'm all for what Klopp wants to do but either he has to buy better players who can handle the system or change the system to accomodate less talented players. The two don't mix as we've seen time and again.

Been saying this from day one... To my it's a no brainier

I don't think Carra and Klopp would be on anything like the same wavelength, tactically. 

Klopp has defenders who :

...aren't a settled, cohesive group.
...don't get much practice at team-defending in games.
...get exposed by our full-back and midfield play.
...don't communicate well.
...lack confidence in our keeper(s).
...seem unsure what methods to adopt in key defensive situations.
...struggle to accept responsibility when it goes wrong.
...aren't at all dominant in the air.

Good look, Jamie, la!

Maybe when he comes in, he could bring in the cheesemunching ratboy as defensive guru no.2

Just cause these guys can talk up a storm, doesn't mean they can 'fix' anyone's problems.
Nah, leave him on the telly, putting buttons on big screeens and wearing nice suits.

Bit unfair some of the criticism of Carra though (on the pitch)
Think he's a decent pundit, as they go, and was a good defender. Scored a lot of goals at both ends! Falling on his arse with Henry running at him was a real lowlight, was watching that feckin game.
I've no probs with Jamie, but it's 'computer says no' for me on this..

This winds me up no end.

Carragher is a local hero no doubt, a true Liverpool legend. As a player though he was bang average and that's the harsh but brutal truth of it.

Take your point on this.  I wouldn't lower it quite as far as 'bang average' but Carragher certainly wouldn't be up the top of the centre backs I've seen us play.

Compare the stats of Carragher with Hyypia and Benitez involved compared to without them.  After the experiences of Alan Shearer and Gary Neville parachuting into football clubs to help I'd have to say 'no thanks' to this idea.

My point was not to put Carra back in defence, but to have a different opinion on how to solve the problem as he does know the game very well and was a decent defender.  I agree that this has been with us for years and i can't see us winning the league until this is sorted. 

Our midfield is not good enough, maybe Kieta will solve this next season and our attack needs to be more clinical and take their chances.  That being said, if we had a better defence we may just turn defeats into draws and draws into wins.

Rafa was the best at killing games off and getting a result, but not exciting to watch so i would much prefer Jurgens methods to win games.

 The fact that under Klopp we are a front foot team,  often gets ignored when our defensive problems are discussed. We defend high as well. Obviously individual errors play a major role but attacking teams do ship more than goals than more conservative teams.

That's not letting Lovren and Co. off the hook but many ask why hasn't Klopp sorted the defense out. Maybe he thinks that in the long run his attacking style will pay off. It might well do but only when he has defenders who limit the errors.

Cara thing is a non starter. Look at the wise after the event knowall.. Gary Neville...couple of weeks at the coal face and he splutters to a full stop.

We all respect Cara's view but we have to trust Jürgen Klopp to get it right and this thread is a tad disrespectful to Jürgen.

That's where I think you're wrong. The majority of pundits, that includes Carra, honestly haven't got a clue what they're talking about and are stuck in the time when they were still playing. All they do is point out the obvious and kick in open doors. Modern football is different in a lot of areas.

Klopp was on this show with Carra where they were analysing different situations in which we either conceded a big chance or a goal. Carra said something like:"In this situation, I would do this or would want my defender / full back to do that." Klopp then asked to rewind the whole thing and explained what he wanted the players to do in that specific situation. It was the complete opposite of what Carra thought.

The way we set up, you can't see the defence as a different part / isolated unit of the team, you don't just have the "back four" you can take apart and coach. We defend as a unit, we press as a unit and depending on which pressing system we're playing, it's often the player closest to the ball or in a good position to press, who will press. If that's a full back, then it's a full back and then he will be the one joining the press. If Carra would come in and coach the back four, you'd have situations in which the back four is running back (which is what Carra would do in those situations) while midfield and the rest of the team are pressing, you can't have that.

In my opinion our midfield starters (Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana) as a trio are good enough and offer enough defensive cover. What we see is that whenever one of our two 8's is missing and replaced by Can, Milner or even Coutinho, that we lose a lot of the midfield stability and cover that the three of them provide as a unit. Keita coming in next season and Chamberlain, in time when he gets used to the tactics, should go a long way to solving the midfield problems.

Agree with most of this, but don't think a defensive coach is precluded by "modern football" ( Carra only retired about 3 years ago) so much as by Jürgen's specific approach which, as you say, Carra probably has no clue about and would totally F**k up.

Also, as others have said, the fact he was a decent defender and is a decent pundit doesn't really prove much about any coaching ability he might have.

On one hand this would be seen as a weakness on Jürgen's part but on the other a strong decision to get some help.

I would like to be a fly on the wall if Carra was to let rip at this shower of shitte defence, i don't think there would be many defencive players that would make the same mistake more than once.  I remember when Carra told Agger that he was not concussed and had to play on and Agger still played better than this lot while seeing double!!

Why can we not find a player that can just defend?  this is not just Jürgen, it has been at the club for a few years now.  I had hoped that Jürgen would have sorted it by now.

YNWA

I would prefer Sami, meself, he could pick other tips, as well

That's where I think you're wrong. The majority of pundits, that includes Carra, honestly haven't got a clue what they're talking about and are stuck in the time when they were still playing. All they do is point out the obvious and kick in open doors. Modern football is different in a lot of areas.

Klopp was on this show with Carra where they were analysing different situations in which we either conceded a big chance or a goal. Carra said something like:"In this situation, I would do this or would want my defender / full back to do that." Klopp then asked to rewind the whole thing and explained what he wanted the players to do in that specific situation. It was the complete opposite of what Carra thought.

The way we set up, you can't see the defence as a different part / isolated unit of the team, you don't just have the "back four" you can take apart and coach. We defend as a unit, we press as a unit and depending on which pressing system we're playing, it's often the player closest to the ball or in a good position to press, who will press. If that's a full back, then it's a full back and then he will be the one joining the press. If Carra would come in and coach the back four, you'd have situations in which the back four is running back (which is what Carra would do in those situations) while midfield and the rest of the team are pressing, you can't have that.

In my opinion our midfield starters (Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana) as a trio are good enough and offer enough defensive cover. What we see is that whenever one of our two 8's is missing and replaced by Can, Milner or even Coutinho, that we lose a lot of the midfield stability and cover that the three of them provide as a unit. Keita coming in next season and Chamberlain, in time when he gets used to the tactics, should go a long way to solving the midfield problems.

Spot on and here's the video for anyone who hasn't seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIm_BhgVgqw

Jürgen discusses so often our ability to defend our offensive situations and in this video you can clearly see his explanation of things but what will force him to change personnel is the type of individual mistakes that are happening on a far too consistent basis. Like the throw-in against Spurs, the fact that becomes such a simple goal can only drive any coach in the world mental. You can't coach players not to make such simple errors, you can improve their concentration levels and you can drill them over and over in commonly occurring situations but a throw-in like that, at this level should need no coaching whatsoever.

What is clear from the video, as you rightly point out, is how far away from the bigger picture Carra's mind is and how far removed he is from the original error which starts the house of cards to collapse. I was guilty of it too, most especially with Moreno, I used to think he was permanently out of position, then I developed that thinking and accepted it must be part of the system, but the light bulb moment was when you posted the analysis from Babayagu. That for me was like a twisting of the lens, I was so much more able to see our patterns and recognise our traps after that and I've really grown to appreciate Moreno since.

Now I'm not saying he's Maldini but in our system he's working extremely well but the question has to be are the pillars of our system too fragile to rely upon them so heavily. Does one pillar collapsing mean the whole thing comes crumbling down, or can one fall and the shoulders of others can bear the burden. Well, again, I think you hit the nail on the head, when we have Lallana and Gini our pressing and manipulation of the opposition's attacking opportunities are far better than when we have to rely on Emre or Cou. Now this isn't to say Cou isn't good enough to adapt to the role, he is and he can fulfil his defensive role but he needs a more willing partner than Emre. Along with that when you have a CB who is so wildly inconsistent and unpredictable we essentially start the game with the an unfair burden on our other key defensive players.

So when people moan about the system or the coaching I struggle to agree, as the system has produced brilliant performances time and time again and the quality of the coaching can be seen from this. However when it comes to personnel then some of our players have gone beyond the defensible and unfortunately there's no way of dressing that up other than a failing on our recruitment. It's no surprise to see the leaks in the media about Jürgen's frustration that we couldn't 'manipulate the transfer' market after he'd convinced players to join because we're suffering from those botch ups. Hopefully come January a repair job will be done but it'll always be a huge frustration looking back on this first half of this season because while others will say we're struggling and we're a joke defensively, I'll always look at it as what could have been with VvD and Keita secured.

System is fine, personnel are sh*t. Get better players, and we will see massive improvements.

There are so many things that are wrong for any one person to simply come in and fix them.

I will always insist that the system that Klopp wants to play needs players that fit it. If you are going to press the hell out of the other team, then you need midfielders that tactically astute, and defenders who can read the game well. You need players that will be able to make the right decisions in moments that require split second decisions.
Spurs was that team that used to come out trying to press and play against Rogders and Klopp, and both would annihilate them. They were already a very good defensive team that did not adapt to games against Liverpool; they did that by sitting deeper, counter attacking more, and the game was not even close.

At the end of the day, the system suits attackers more than anyone else, and there are issues with personnel that have not been sorted out in the transfer market.

Sometimes, people have to be honest and say that maybe the team as is may not be good enough, and that some departments that needed urgent sorting did not get the attention they deserved in the transfer window.

He’d be the first to tell you he was no Hansen or Lawrenson but he was a very decent defender.

How much for this pairing now??!!!

How much for this pairing now??!!!

About £150m.

If big Virg’s price tag (£75m) is the benchmark then I’d happily say Jockey is £90m+

About £150m.

If big Virg’s price tag (£75m) is the benchmark then I’d happily say Jockey is £90m+

Given how obvious our desperation for him is, expect Van Dyke's price tag to be higher than it was in the Summer.

It wouldn't be if we had better players. You get what you pay for. Klopp wants us to play on the edge, with a very high line and defensive duties spread throughout the team. If we had a leader back there and better and more experienced Centerback, Fullbacks and a Goalkeeper, it would work and we wouldn't be having these conversations. I'm all for what Klopp wants to do but either he has to buy better players who can handle the system or change the system to accomodate less talented players. The two don't mix as we've seen time and again.

OK so do Burnley have better defenders than us as a unit or are they just better organised? You see I think our defenders are plenty good enough do be a hell of a lot better than we are but the system is wrong or they haven't learnt it properly, both are worrying.

System is fine, personnel are sh*t. Get better players, and we will see massive improvements.

Sorry but that is rubbish, if the system is fine then how come despite many different defenders over the least 2 years we are still awful at defending as a unit?

Given how obvious our desperation for him is, expect Van Dyke's price tag to be higher than it was in the Summer.

The eternal optimist in me hopes that our summer “inactivity” publicly was based on some agreement behind scenes........

Reality is we’ll probably get “b#ggered with a fish-fork” (again) as General Melchett (Blackadder) would say before he signs for Chelsea 

My point was more re the quality of Lawrenson and Hansen (in particular).

If Jürgen wants Carra to sort his defence out he should beg him to come out of retirement

Mignolet is sh*te.

Moreno is sh*te.

Klavan is sh*te.

Lovren is sh*te.

Regardless of the system we employ, these players are not good enough, FACHT!

Our defence is a shambles and we are slowly becoming the laughing stock of the Premier League.

Couple that with the fact that we have a midfield trio with the collective creativity of an amoeba then that just adds to the farce that this season is slowly becoming.

It's all well and good wanting to play rock and roll football but it's pointless when the base of that group are F***ing around with tambourines and xylophones.

There are too many pussies in this team.

Lallana can't come back soon enough for me, we are missing him so much it is unreal.

On the point made about Carra, as good an organiser as he was, he would only be polishing turds.

Jürgen has a team of coaches who should be doing their job by sorting this defence out, if they're not (in Jürgen's opinion) then they should be fu**ed off and then it's up to Jürgen who he brings in as a new coach, whether that be Carragher or anybody else.

Reality is we’ll probably get “b#ggered with a fish-fork” (again) as General Melchett (Blackadder) would say before he signs for Chelsea 

Melchett's off to Chelsea? 

Did you get that from Metro or Talkshite?

 

Melchett's off to Chelsea?

 

Yes Darling

Carragher is not the solution but Klopp does need to take a look at his coaches and backroom staff and ask questions about what impact they are having.

For me, a key difference between this season and last season is Lucas. He sat in front of the backfour last season and did a lot to break up play and act as a kind of shield for the two central defenders.

This season we've got the same mediocre defence but they no longer have that shield and are looking like rabbits in headlights everytime the ball comes anywhere near them.

Plus, as others have said, they don't seem to be natural defenders - players who enjoy defending and who take pride in it. Carragher, for all his faults, was definitely someone in this mould.

You can't coach players not to make such simple errors, you can improve their concentration levels and you can drill them over and over in commonly occurring situations...

Just a few snippets I'd like to comment on.

It's why I think he persisted with Lovren for so long. Purely in terms of (physical) ability, he is a more than a decent defender (plenty will disagree with me here probably). He is strong, good passing, not too slow, good vertical leap, ... It's the mental side of things that's letting him down. Strangely enough trying to improve someone mentally in terms of concentration, decision making, confidence, ... should be easier than teaching someone how to play football so to speak. Sadly though he apparently just is so weak mentally that he'll never make it at a top club.

That for me was like a twisting of the lens, I was so much more able to see our patterns and recognise our traps after that and I've really grown to appreciate Moreno since.

That's one of the other problems we now have, both Gomez and Trent are incapable of playing the role Moreno plays on the other side of the pitch. They get beaten in 1 vs 1 situations too often. Moreno is really, really good in this type of situations and I know you don't particularly rate Clyne, both offensively and defensively, but he is really good in 1 vs 1 situations too and he reads situations in which to press much better. We have conceded quite a few goals coming from our right side because of their failures and indecisiveness.

Does one pillar collapsing mean the whole thing comes crumbling down, or can one fall and the shoulders of others can bear the burden. Well, again, I think you hit the nail on the head, when we have Lallana and Gini our pressing and manipulation of the opposition's attacking opportunities are far better than when we have to rely on Emre or Cou.

The problem is, as you say, due to several injuries we essentially start games with "faulty pillars" (Can, Milner, Lovren, Gomez / Trent). They put so much pressure on other players (mainly Matip, Henderson and Wijnaldum) that at some point they're bound to come crashing down. A lot of people have been very critical of Wijnaldum lately, I don't fully agree with that. Both Henderson and Wijnaldum, no matter if it's Can or Coutinho, are trying to do the defensive tasks of a three man midfield with the two of them. Wijnaldum is limiting his own game for the good of the team, constantly running around trying to fill gaps in our defensive organisation and as a result he's not getting forward nearly as much as he was last season and he isn't available for the ball as much either. Coutinho, as good as he is, doesn't work as a #8 in our system in my opinion, he's just not good enough defensively. Either, if he stays next season, Klopp switches back to his 4-2-3-1 with him as a #10 (Keita is a perfect #8) or we play him in the front three. No matter how we play, we will need a new #6, be it for a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1.

It's no surprise to see the leaks in the media about Jürgen's frustration that we couldn't 'manipulate the transfer' market after he'd convinced players to join because we're suffering from those botch ups.

I often see people blaming Klopp for not seeing obvious flaws in our current squad and not trying to rectify them. In my opinion it's the complete opposite, he has, with the limited funds at his disposal, always targetted players for problem areas, since his first window here.

Both Van Dijk and Keita were targets for two of the biggest problem positions we currently have: CB and the #8 position. He clearly knew we had / were going to have issues, he wanted to bring them in to solve the problems, he convinced them to come and the management failed to land them. Not having alternatives lined up is something you can "blame" him for, but even then, if by now it's not clear that we need a very specific type of player for most positions in our squad, it never will be.

Before that, bar Lovren, none of the CB's were able to play a high line. He brought in Matip and Klavan (Klavan is very hit and miss, not every transfer works out unfortunately). Mignolet can't play behind a high line, he brought in Karius who has been crucified for a few poor games as a young lad in a new league, resulting in Klopp having to take him out of the spotlight.

Last season we struggled without Mane because of a lack of pace, he brought in both Salah and Chamberlain to add pace to the team.

Every time he has seen a problem, he has tried to or has brought someone in to help solve it. I've said it before, it's a slow process. We now have, bar Mignolet, a starting eleven that is fit to play the game Klopp wants to play. Now it's time to upgrade on this starting eleven (with the likes of Keita and Van Dijk) so we actually get to have players on the bench who can come in and do the job that is expected of them. Our current bench might seem strong in terms of 'names', but it isn't in terms of players for his system, yet.

Here is how I see things with Liverpool at the moment…

We have only four/five first team players that I would keep at the club… Frimno, Mane, Salah, Gini and possibly Matip…. The rest are all replaceable and should be replaced asp…. The rest are average players and not good enough to win the title much less win the CL…

 For far too long LFC have been; with one or two exceptions buying players that are only slightly above average and due to the managers tactic (against the top five clubs, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Utd) we have been punching above our weight and giving the impression that the loses to the lower clubs are nothing more than blips…

 Many of you believe that the 5-1 loss to City was down to Mane’s sending off, but what I saw only lead me to believe that we would have lost that game in any event… The 4-1 lost to Spurs just proved that we were not good enough… Lovren I here you say…?... If we were good enough we would not have players making those kinds of mistakes

Utd came out and played defensively and we still could not break them down

City, Arsenal, Utd, Chelsea even Spur all have Game changers which they can bring on from the bench. Who do we have…??

We need to start buying Quality players, and I don’t mean trying to buy Messi, Rolando, Suarez etc for we are not going to attached real world class players until we are challenging for the title and getting into the CL on a regular basis. But rather look at some of the fringe Bayern, Barca and Real players. Players that can get us to that level season in season out…Maybe even looking to take someone like Drexler on loan

It’s no good beating Arsenal 4-0 then losing Burnley 3-0 the following week…. That simply is not good enough…We are simply not good enough

What Klopp should do is read the following and heed its words because it's an excellent article outlining how many of our problems could be alievated by a defensive midfielder, and how many of them aren't just down to personnel, but are structural in nature.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/10/27/liverpools-problems-forward-centre-back-need-holding-midfielder/

What Klopp should do is read the following and heed its words because it's an excellent article outlining how many of our problems could be alievated by a defensive midfielder, and how many of them aren't just down to personnel, but are structural in nature.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/10/27/liverpools-problems-forward-centre-back-need-holding-midfielder/

Oh that guy is so full of sh*t, unbelievable  !

Perfect example of what I said earlier, taking snapshots at certain moments and saying where which player should be and pundits / journalists who don't have a clue.

Spurs' first goal

Matip does step up to follow Lovren (first thing where he's wrong), watch the phase of play again and watch his body position in that image. He moves up (he is at the same line as Lovren) and sets his body in a position for when it does come over, that he can start to run, just like Lovren does, who is playing Kane offside. The one who is too late to step up (watch the image, he's making a step forward) is Gomez. If Gomez hadn't switched off for a second, they play the offside trap perfectly.

What happens after that is that players have to react to a new situation, a situation they should not be in. Our midfield three rotates, Henderson is now on the left, Can is our #6 in that situation. Look at Can's position in the first image and then when the ball goes in. He's the only one of the 3 midfielders who hasn't bothered moving YET AGAIN! I've been saying it so often right now, Can is a bloody liability who does f**k all. So it's not 'structural', it's one player switching off and one who can't be arsed running because he wants to be in Juventus next summer. Can and Eriksen are level when the ball leaves Trippier's foot, look at the difference between them when the ball goes in.

Spurs' second goal

This is where he fu**ed up. He cut the image in such a way where you can't see Henderson on it. Here's the image:





Don't look at the clock, the time was still running during the replay, this is straight after Lloris' throw after Milner's cross.

Look at the image he uses with the red circle where he says "Jordan Henderson should probably be here" and then look at the image I posted. Henderson was positioned slightly right of that red circle, in a position he cut out of the image. He was there because the ball was on the right with Milner, so if the attack breaks down, he can press. Henderson, as the image shows, was EXACTLY where he should be. The fact that Lovren makes the wrong decision there isn't his fault and has nothing to do with 'structural' problems or a 'holding midfielder'. In the later image, you see Henderson in front of Alli, again, where he should be.

Spurs' third goal

Henderson lets Kane run, Matip has to make up for this and heads it to the middle (hard to get it anywhere else). Look who is marking the zone where Alli is in, both Milner and Can are there. Both of them lose Alli and are late. I have no idea why he puts a circle around Moreno there other than trying to make it look like his at fault for the goal when he isn't (judging by his comments:" following Alberto Moreno, who is selected every week by Klopp because of his offensive qualities, ignoring the daft defensive decisions he regularly makes.") he doesn't really rate Moreno. Moreno and Chamberlain, our quickest players in that area, are positioned outside the box to set up the counter attack with their pace. That's a clear instruction by Klopp and again, nothing to do with a 'holding midfielder'.

Leicester chance - Gray

He does it again, he takes a snapshot at the exact moment when it looks like he's out of position. Here is the real image, a few seconds before that image:



It was a long ball to Slimani, Henderson again (can you tell me where he should be then?) for me is in the right position, marking Okazaki. Again, it's not Henderson who is in the wrong position, it's Grujic who should be positioned lower. The snapshot he takes is right after Slimani plays the ball to Gray who then manages to dribble Henderson. It's only then when he is behind the play and that the gap opens up. That gap (that doesn't exist in the first situation) only opens up after Henderson gets dribbled (that can happen) and because Grujic reacts too late and doesn't shift to take over Henderson's position. That's the way our midfield three works and that's also a reason why calls for Grujic to start are premature, he's not ready.

Leicester's first goal

Again a situation that only exists because one of our defenders (Gomez again) switches off and plays them offside. Look at the defensive line, it's perfect, other than Gomez who again fucks up. This is the only goal that he mentions where you could make a case against Henderson and for a real #6, but it's a goal that shouldn't have happened in the first place had the players done what they should have done in the initial situation.

Sevilla's goal

Look at the midfield three (Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can) Henderson, as our most defensive, is again running to the right zone to avoid the cut back to the Sevilla player left of the penalty spot. It's Lovren (again an individual mistake, not structural or because of a holding midfielder) that fucks up with the clearance and Can (again him) who stops running.

So Klopp shouldn't read that bullshit. Only one example of his has something to do with a holding midfielder. I'm not saying we can't or shouldn't upgrade on Henderson so we have a more natural #6 playing there, but I stand by my opinion, Henderson isn't the real issue in midfield. Individual errors and the players in front of him (Can) are the issue. Problems are down to personnel / decision making, not tactics, not a 'holding midfielder', not 'structural'.

Just a few snippets I'd like to comment on.

It's why I think he persisted with Lovren for so long. Purely in terms of (physical) ability, he is a more than a decent defender (plenty will disagree with me here probably). He is strong, good passing, not too slow, good vertical leap, ... It's the mental side of things that's letting him down. Strangely enough trying to improve someone mentally in terms of concentration, decision making, confidence, ... should be easier than teaching someone how to play football so to speak. Sadly though he apparently just is so weak mentally that he'll never make it at a top club.

Apart from the pace, as I think he's deceptively slow for a man that moves his legs so fast, I totally agree. In the air he's actually quite dominant and it's why I am surprised he doesn't score more from set-pieces, and in amongst the joking with Mick about the 'future captain' I always thought if he could sort out his mentality then he would be a top player.

Right now I think the progress that was made last season seems have deteriorated, how much is that down to the VvD links I'm not so sure but when starting with a player of a delicate mental state then perhaps it has had more of a bearing. If that is the case or not his mentality has proven that he just isn't up to it to be a reliable, long-term starter.

That's one of the other problems we now have, both Gomez and Trent are incapable of playing the role Moreno plays on the other side of the pitch. They get beaten in 1 vs 1 situations too often. Moreno is really, really good in this type of situations and I know you don't particularly rate Clyne, both offensively and defensively, but he is really good in 1 vs 1 situations too and he reads situations in which to press much better. We have conceded quite a few goals coming from our right side because of their failures and indecisiveness.

True, I don't rate Clyne, most especially in attack. In 1v1 situations though I would be a fool to suggest that Gomez or Trent are currently at his level, now I do think that level has fallen in the past year but still he is a very capable 1v1 defender. My biggest issues on his defending side have always been his ability to compete for far post headers and block crosses in to the box but if we want our absolute best defender (not best full-back) then Clyne would have to be the choice at the moment.

I often see people blaming Klopp for not seeing obvious flaws in our current squad and not trying to rectify them. In my opinion it's the complete opposite, he has, with the limited funds at his disposal, always targetted players for problem areas, since his first window here.

Both Van Dijk and Keita were targets for two of the biggest problem positions we currently have: CB and the #8 position. He clearly knew we had / were going to have issues, he wanted to bring them in to solve the problems, he convinced them to come and the management failed to land them. Not having alternatives lined up is something you can "blame" him for, but even then, if by now it's not clear that we need a very specific type of player for most positions in our squad, it never will be.

Before that, bar Lovren, none of the CB's were able to play a high line. He brought in Matip and Klavan (Klavan is very hit and miss, not every transfer works out unfortunately). Mignolet can't play behind a high line, he brought in Karius who has been crucified for a few poor games as a young lad in a new league, resulting in Klopp having to take him out of the spotlight.

Last season we struggled without Mane because of a lack of pace, he brought in both Salah and Chamberlain to add pace to the team.

Every time he has seen a problem, he has tried to or has brought someone in to help solve it. I've said it before, it's a slow process. We now have, bar Mignolet, a starting eleven that is fit to play the game Klopp wants to play. Now it's time to upgrade on this starting eleven (with the likes of Keita and Van Dijk) so we actually get to have players on the bench who can come in and do the job that is expected of them. Our current bench might seem strong in terms of 'names', but it isn't in terms of players for his system, yet.

This is why I don't understand how anyone can be looking to change manager. There was an interesting piece in the Echo yesterday yesterday that touched on this:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-boss-Jürgen-klopp-fsg-13823287

This being the most interesting quote in the piece in my opinion:

“I don’t think I am the problem. It is about relationships. We have to do things better. It is not that I don’t know how it should work."

Everyone will read their own interpretation of things but to me the whole thing read like a step forward had been made behind the scenes. A realisation that once Jürgen attracts these bigger names that more is done to secure them, sure that could be 'hope' over expectations and only January and beyond will truly show us that I suppose.

In Dublin to sort someone out is a term used for kicking the sh*te out of someone or knock a bit of sense into them.

So im all for Carra sorting the defence out!!

This really is a pointless thread. Why do we need to ask if someone if they can come in and sort out this defence. To me if this happened then it asks the question is Klopp and his team up to the job. FFS they're even saying on talkshite that LFC should ask big Sam to come in and sort it out, I mean what's that all about.
In other situations if someone is not doing their job properly they get reprimanded or have disaplinery action against them. In football they get dropped, plain and simple, that's why we have a squad. So there are players in our team who are simply out of form and not playing well. It's down to Klopp and his team to sort this out. If Klopp needs to replace some of his team then yes no problem. Wether it's formations, tactics or systems that's all down to the manager  and his team to get it sorted. Klopp is all about this gegen press and winning the ball high up the pitch to make it easier to get into scoring positions...I get it but with the crop of players playing at the moment it is leaving us exposed. Klopp is the manager and him and his team of players and staff are paid to get this sorted. Im not going to name names (we should all know who they are by now) but if he sticks with certain players and they keep making the same mistakes is he just going to sub them off all the time. So let's stop talking about people coming in to help out with the defence because it's not going to happen.
For me if things don't change and we don't address the situation between now and the end of January then for the first time I will have to question if Klopp and his staff are the right people in charge.

In Dublin to sort someone out is a term used for kicking the sh*te out of someone or knock a bit of sense into them.

So im all for Carra sorting the defence out!!

Same as over here Brian and they do need a kick up the arse

Should Jürgen ask Carra.....F**k me ...Really ?
 Carra was a decent defender played with plenty of passion and most definitely for that wee bird dancing on his nipple, however he wasn't the best we've ever had, if we were to go down that cringeworthy route then why not go ask Hansen, Hyppia, Thompson, Smith etc....

FF's if Jürgen & his coaches can't fix it no one else can be expected to, i think we're missing the whole F***ing point....its so f***in simple.....WE NEED BETTER PLAYERS....!!!

Yes you could argue that Klopp has to shoulder some blame for not bringing in alternatives , can't get away from that but he isnt to blame for the school boy errors seen from so called professional athlete's, errors that have cost us points and league positions,

I'm sick of saying this, there's too many players here that are not at a level we need to perform consistently in a system of a Klopp side...but he's working on that very issue...but it does take time....lots of it...and money....lots of it...and some ....having a average net spend of under £24m isnt gonna cut it is it ?

So while there are many who blame Klopp for lack of playing staff, there are plenty more who will point their fingers at the money men and their miserly offerings in the transfer market......

.....Anyhoo ..it is what it is and stooping low to ask advise from ex defender's is f***in embarrassing and something you'd expect to see in amateur football and certainly not in the EPL and especially not at Anfield!!

YNWA 

This really is a pointless thread. Why do we need to ask if someone if they can come in and sort out this defence. To me if this happened then it asks the question is Klopp and his team up to the job. FFS they're even saying on talkshite that LFC should ask big Sam to come in and sort it out, I mean what's that all about.
In other situations if someone is not doing their job properly they get reprimanded or have disaplinery action against them. In football they get dropped, plain and simple, that's why we have a squad. So there are players in our team who are simply out of form and not playing well. It's down to Klopp and his team to sort this out. If Klopp needs to replace some of his team then yes no problem. Wether it's formations, tactics or systems that's all down to the manager  and his team to get it sorted. Klopp is all about this gegen press and winning the ball high up the pitch to make it easier to get into scoring positions...I get it but with the crop of players playing at the moment it is leaving us exposed. Klopp is the manager and him and his team of players and staff are paid to get this sorted. Im not going to name names (we should all know who they are by now) but if he sticks with certain players and they keep making the same mistakes is he just going to sub them off all the time. So let's stop talking about people coming in to help out with the defence because it's not going to happen.
For me if things don't change and we don't address the situation between now and the end of January then for the first time I will have to question if Klopp and his staff are the right people in charge.


Hardly pointless, it has prompted quite a good discussion!!

Mignolet is sh*te.

Moreno is sh*te.

Klavan is sh*te.

Lovren is sh*te.

Regardless of the system we employ, these players are not good enough, FACHT!

Our defence is a shambles and we are slowly becoming the laughing stock of the Premier League.

Couple that with the fact that we have a midfield trio with the collective creativity of an amoeba then that just adds to the farce that this season is slowly becoming.

It's all well and good wanting to play rock and roll football but it's pointless when the base of that group are f**king around with tambourines and xylophones.

There are too many pussies in this team.

Lallana can't come back soon enough for me, we are missing him so much it is unreal.

On the point made about Carra, as good an organiser as he was, he would only be polishing turds.

Post of the Week .

I'd stick Henderson in there as well .

A couple of thru balls ... a season does not make.

Read an interview from the Telegraph a couple of weeks back with Carra .

The main thing he said is that no one is talking to each other on the pitch.

Referred to the spine and the leaders in the 08-09 team.    You never know what you have till its gone... do you ?

Klopp must have taken Carra's advice the last 2 games..

Ain't leaked a goal.. 

Go Carra

Read an interview from the Telegraph a couple of weeks back with Carra .

The main thing he said is that no one is talking to each other on the pitch.

Referred to the spine and the leaders in the 08-09 team.    You never know what you have till its gone... do you ?

Hyypia said that on BT Sport last night. 'The team lacks leaders'.

In Dublin to sort someone out is a term used for kicking the sh*te out of someone or knock a bit of sense into them.

Means the same in Liverpool.  He's knocking on a bit now is Carra so not sure he could anyway.

But then it also means giving them a wedge of dosh - Carra could probably help there.

The defence led by Jamie Carragher conceded the least amount of goals in the premier league for three seasons running. Anyone comparing our defence now to the one we had back then needs to give their head a wobble.

The defence led by Jamie Carragher conceded the least amount of goals in the premier league for three seasons running. Anyone comparing our defence now to the one we had back then needs to give their head a wobble.

 

Yeah i'm pretty sure that hasn't come up at any point in this thread,and no Carra should not be asked to help coach the defence.

 

Yeah i'm pretty sure that hasn't come up at any point in this thread,and no Carra should not be asked to help coach the defence.

“But I remember only too well how shambolic his partnership with Skrtel was and at times Agger too.

The same type of goals we concede now we conceded every week with him and Agger or Skrtel at the back. The likes of Droga, Zamora, Kevin Davies bullied them constantly.”

“If Carragher was playing in our back line now alongside either Agger or Skrtel then I'm convinced we would still be conceding from set pieces/direct balls into the box every week.”

Carragher would end up fighting with either a defender, a coach or Klopp himself. The reason for this is because he's intensely competitive and would want to have a game himself. I'd imagine that's why he's gone into media work. He's still got the enthusiasm for football but approaching the big 40 doesn't let your body keep that enthusiasm.

Would never work and can't see it ever happening.

We don't really have a defence much.

Junk;

Lovren
Flanagan
Klaven

Injured;

Clyne

Undecided;

Gomez

Okay;

TAA
Matip

We need to consider having some players, perhaps Can at CB.