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      Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????

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      Scotia
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #23: Oct 26, 2017 06:56:08 pm
      Indeed.

      It is a bit weird that we are so bad at the back with Jürgen being a defender.

      Didn’t he start as a striker though.....and ended up defending as he lost his legs?

      Maybe I assumed that though.....wouldn’t be first time :)
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #24: Oct 26, 2017 07:59:25 pm
      Indeed.

      It is a bit weird that we are so bad at the back with Jürgen being a defender.

      It wouldn't be if we had better players. You get what you pay for. Klopp wants us to play on the edge, with a very high line and defensive duties spread throughout the team. If we had a leader back there and better and more experienced Centerback, Fullbacks and a Goalkeeper, it would work and we wouldn't be having these conversations. I'm all for what Klopp wants to do but either he has to buy better players who can handle the system or change the system to accomodate less talented players. The two don't mix as we've seen time and again.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #25: Oct 26, 2017 08:20:53 pm
      Been saying this from day one... To my it's a no brainier
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #26: Oct 26, 2017 09:07:19 pm
      I don't think Carra and Klopp would be on anything like the same wavelength, tactically. 

      Klopp has defenders who :

      ...aren't a settled, cohesive group.
      ...don't get much practice at team-defending in games.
      ...get exposed by our full-back and midfield play.
      ...don't communicate well.
      ...lack confidence in our keeper(s).
      ...seem unsure what methods to adopt in key defensive situations.
      ...struggle to accept responsibility when it goes wrong.
      ...aren't at all dominant in the air.

      Good look, Jamie, la!
      bmck
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #27: Oct 26, 2017 10:44:23 pm
      Maybe when he comes in, he could bring in the cheesemunching ratboy as defensive guru no.2 :)

      Just cause these guys can talk up a storm, doesn't mean they can 'fix' anyone's problems.
      Nah, leave him on the telly, putting buttons on big screeens and wearing nice suits.

      Bit unfair some of the criticism of Carra though (on the pitch)
      Think he's a decent pundit, as they go, and was a good defender. Scored a lot of goals at both ends! Falling on his arse with Henry running at him was a real lowlight, was watching that feckin game.
      I've no probs with Jamie, but it's 'computer says no' for me on this..
      JD
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #28: Oct 26, 2017 10:54:34 pm
      This winds me up no end.

      Carragher is a local hero no doubt, a true Liverpool legend. As a player though he was bang average and that's the harsh but brutal truth of it.

      Take your point on this.  I wouldn't lower it quite as far as 'bang average' but Carragher certainly wouldn't be up the top of the centre backs I've seen us play.

      Compare the stats of Carragher with Hyypia and Benitez involved compared to without them.  After the experiences of Alan Shearer and Gary Neville parachuting into football clubs to help I'd have to say 'no thanks' to this idea.

      Harrisimo
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #29: Oct 26, 2017 11:01:34 pm
      My point was not to put Carra back in defence, but to have a different opinion on how to solve the problem as he does know the game very well and was a decent defender.  I agree that this has been with us for years and i can't see us winning the league until this is sorted. 

      Our midfield is not good enough, maybe Kieta will solve this next season and our attack needs to be more clinical and take their chances.  That being said, if we had a better defence we may just turn defeats into draws and draws into wins.

      Rafa was the best at killing games off and getting a result, but not exciting to watch so i would much prefer Jurgens methods to win games.

       The fact that under Klopp we are a front foot team,  often gets ignored when our defensive problems are discussed. We defend high as well. Obviously individual errors play a major role but attacking teams do ship more than goals than more conservative teams.

      That's not letting Lovren and Co. off the hook but many ask why hasn't Klopp sorted the defense out. Maybe he thinks that in the long run his attacking style will pay off. It might well do but only when he has defenders who limit the errors.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #30: Oct 26, 2017 11:08:18 pm
      Cara thing is a non starter. Look at the wise after the event knowall.. Gary Neville...couple of weeks at the coal face and he splutters to a full stop.

      We all respect Cara's view but we have to trust Jürgen Klopp to get it right and this thread is a tad disrespectful to Jürgen.
      sore monad
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #31: Oct 26, 2017 11:24:53 pm
      That's where I think you're wrong. The majority of pundits, that includes Carra, honestly haven't got a clue what they're talking about and are stuck in the time when they were still playing. All they do is point out the obvious and kick in open doors. Modern football is different in a lot of areas.

      Klopp was on this show with Carra where they were analysing different situations in which we either conceded a big chance or a goal. Carra said something like:"In this situation, I would do this or would want my defender / full back to do that." Klopp then asked to rewind the whole thing and explained what he wanted the players to do in that specific situation. It was the complete opposite of what Carra thought.

      The way we set up, you can't see the defence as a different part / isolated unit of the team, you don't just have the "back four" you can take apart and coach. We defend as a unit, we press as a unit and depending on which pressing system we're playing, it's often the player closest to the ball or in a good position to press, who will press. If that's a full back, then it's a full back and then he will be the one joining the press. If Carra would come in and coach the back four, you'd have situations in which the back four is running back (which is what Carra would do in those situations) while midfield and the rest of the team are pressing, you can't have that.

      In my opinion our midfield starters (Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana) as a trio are good enough and offer enough defensive cover. What we see is that whenever one of our two 8's is missing and replaced by Can, Milner or even Coutinho, that we lose a lot of the midfield stability and cover that the three of them provide as a unit. Keita coming in next season and Chamberlain, in time when he gets used to the tactics, should go a long way to solving the midfield problems.

      Agree with most of this, but don't think a defensive coach is precluded by "modern football" ( Carra only retired about 3 years ago) so much as by Jürgen's specific approach which, as you say, Carra probably has no clue about and would totally F**k up.

      Also, as others have said, the fact he was a decent defender and is a decent pundit doesn't really prove much about any coaching ability he might have.
      redtiler
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #32: Oct 26, 2017 11:39:25 pm
      On one hand this would be seen as a weakness on Jürgen's part but on the other a strong decision to get some help.

      I would like to be a fly on the wall if Carra was to let rip at this shower of shitte defence, i don't think there would be many defencive players that would make the same mistake more than once.  I remember when Carra told Agger that he was not concussed and had to play on and Agger still played better than this lot while seeing double!!

      Why can we not find a player that can just defend?  this is not just Jürgen, it has been at the club for a few years now.  I had hoped that Jürgen would have sorted it by now.

      YNWA

      I would prefer Sami, meself, he could pick other tips, as well
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #33: Oct 27, 2017 01:08:34 am
      That's where I think you're wrong. The majority of pundits, that includes Carra, honestly haven't got a clue what they're talking about and are stuck in the time when they were still playing. All they do is point out the obvious and kick in open doors. Modern football is different in a lot of areas.

      Klopp was on this show with Carra where they were analysing different situations in which we either conceded a big chance or a goal. Carra said something like:"In this situation, I would do this or would want my defender / full back to do that." Klopp then asked to rewind the whole thing and explained what he wanted the players to do in that specific situation. It was the complete opposite of what Carra thought.

      The way we set up, you can't see the defence as a different part / isolated unit of the team, you don't just have the "back four" you can take apart and coach. We defend as a unit, we press as a unit and depending on which pressing system we're playing, it's often the player closest to the ball or in a good position to press, who will press. If that's a full back, then it's a full back and then he will be the one joining the press. If Carra would come in and coach the back four, you'd have situations in which the back four is running back (which is what Carra would do in those situations) while midfield and the rest of the team are pressing, you can't have that.

      In my opinion our midfield starters (Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana) as a trio are good enough and offer enough defensive cover. What we see is that whenever one of our two 8's is missing and replaced by Can, Milner or even Coutinho, that we lose a lot of the midfield stability and cover that the three of them provide as a unit. Keita coming in next season and Chamberlain, in time when he gets used to the tactics, should go a long way to solving the midfield problems.

      Spot on and here's the video for anyone who hasn't seen it:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIm_BhgVgqw

      Jürgen discusses so often our ability to defend our offensive situations and in this video you can clearly see his explanation of things but what will force him to change personnel is the type of individual mistakes that are happening on a far too consistent basis. Like the throw-in against Spurs, the fact that becomes such a simple goal can only drive any coach in the world mental. You can't coach players not to make such simple errors, you can improve their concentration levels and you can drill them over and over in commonly occurring situations but a throw-in like that, at this level should need no coaching whatsoever.

      What is clear from the video, as you rightly point out, is how far away from the bigger picture Carra's mind is and how far removed he is from the original error which starts the house of cards to collapse. I was guilty of it too, most especially with Moreno, I used to think he was permanently out of position, then I developed that thinking and accepted it must be part of the system, but the light bulb moment was when you posted the analysis from Babayagu. That for me was like a twisting of the lens, I was so much more able to see our patterns and recognise our traps after that and I've really grown to appreciate Moreno since.

      Now I'm not saying he's Maldini but in our system he's working extremely well but the question has to be are the pillars of our system too fragile to rely upon them so heavily. Does one pillar collapsing mean the whole thing comes crumbling down, or can one fall and the shoulders of others can bear the burden. Well, again, I think you hit the nail on the head, when we have Lallana and Gini our pressing and manipulation of the opposition's attacking opportunities are far better than when we have to rely on Emre or Cou. Now this isn't to say Cou isn't good enough to adapt to the role, he is and he can fulfil his defensive role but he needs a more willing partner than Emre. Along with that when you have a CB who is so wildly inconsistent and unpredictable we essentially start the game with the an unfair burden on our other key defensive players.

      So when people moan about the system or the coaching I struggle to agree, as the system has produced brilliant performances time and time again and the quality of the coaching can be seen from this. However when it comes to personnel then some of our players have gone beyond the defensible and unfortunately there's no way of dressing that up other than a failing on our recruitment. It's no surprise to see the leaks in the media about Jürgen's frustration that we couldn't 'manipulate the transfer' market after he'd convinced players to join because we're suffering from those botch ups. Hopefully come January a repair job will be done but it'll always be a huge frustration looking back on this first half of this season because while others will say we're struggling and we're a joke defensively, I'll always look at it as what could have been with VvD and Keita secured.
      Gill95
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #34: Oct 27, 2017 04:32:14 am
      System is fine, personnel are sh*t. Get better players, and we will see massive improvements.
      grooveshark
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #35: Oct 27, 2017 08:47:05 am
      There are so many things that are wrong for any one person to simply come in and fix them.

      I will always insist that the system that Klopp wants to play needs players that fit it. If you are going to press the hell out of the other team, then you need midfielders that tactically astute, and defenders who can read the game well. You need players that will be able to make the right decisions in moments that require split second decisions.
      Spurs was that team that used to come out trying to press and play against Rogders and Klopp, and both would annihilate them. They were already a very good defensive team that did not adapt to games against Liverpool; they did that by sitting deeper, counter attacking more, and the game was not even close.

      At the end of the day, the system suits attackers more than anyone else, and there are issues with personnel that have not been sorted out in the transfer market.

      Sometimes, people have to be honest and say that maybe the team as is may not be good enough, and that some departments that needed urgent sorting did not get the attention they deserved in the transfer window.
      skamp
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #36: Oct 27, 2017 10:07:40 am
      He’d be the first to tell you he was no Hansen or Lawrenson but he was a very decent defender.
      How much for this pairing now??!!!
      Scotia
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #37: Oct 27, 2017 11:11:33 am
      How much for this pairing now??!!!

      About £150m.

      If big Virg’s price tag (£75m) is the benchmark then I’d happily say Jockey is £90m+
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #38: Oct 27, 2017 11:47:05 am
      About £150m.

      If big Virg’s price tag (£75m) is the benchmark then I’d happily say Jockey is £90m+

      Given how obvious our desperation for him is, expect Van Dyke's price tag to be higher than it was in the Summer.
      heimdall
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #39: Oct 27, 2017 11:57:02 am
      It wouldn't be if we had better players. You get what you pay for. Klopp wants us to play on the edge, with a very high line and defensive duties spread throughout the team. If we had a leader back there and better and more experienced Centerback, Fullbacks and a Goalkeeper, it would work and we wouldn't be having these conversations. I'm all for what Klopp wants to do but either he has to buy better players who can handle the system or change the system to accomodate less talented players. The two don't mix as we've seen time and again.

      OK so do Burnley have better defenders than us as a unit or are they just better organised? You see I think our defenders are plenty good enough do be a hell of a lot better than we are but the system is wrong or they haven't learnt it properly, both are worrying.
      heimdall
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #40: Oct 27, 2017 11:58:43 am
      System is fine, personnel are sh*t. Get better players, and we will see massive improvements.

      Sorry but that is rubbish, if the system is fine then how come despite many different defenders over the least 2 years we are still awful at defending as a unit?
      Scotia
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #41: Oct 27, 2017 12:27:52 pm
      Given how obvious our desperation for him is, expect Van Dyke's price tag to be higher than it was in the Summer.

      The eternal optimist in me hopes that our summer “inactivity” publicly was based on some agreement behind scenes........

      Reality is we’ll probably get “b#ggered with a fish-fork” (again) as General Melchett (Blackadder) would say before he signs for Chelsea  :mad:

      My point was more re the quality of Lawrenson and Hansen (in particular).
      Brian78
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #42: Oct 27, 2017 12:33:26 pm
      If Jürgen wants Carra to sort his defence out he should beg him to come out of retirement
      hardcoresoldier
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #43: Oct 27, 2017 12:50:01 pm
      Mignolet is sh*te.

      Moreno is sh*te.

      Klavan is sh*te.

      Lovren is sh*te.

      Regardless of the system we employ, these players are not good enough, FACHT!

      Our defence is a shambles and we are slowly becoming the laughing stock of the Premier League.

      Couple that with the fact that we have a midfield trio with the collective creativity of an amoeba then that just adds to the farce that this season is slowly becoming.

      It's all well and good wanting to play rock and roll football but it's pointless when the base of that group are F***ing around with tambourines and xylophones.

      There are too many pussies in this team.

      Lallana can't come back soon enough for me, we are missing him so much it is unreal.

      On the point made about Carra, as good an organiser as he was, he would only be polishing turds.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #44: Oct 27, 2017 01:12:47 pm
      Jürgen has a team of coaches who should be doing their job by sorting this defence out, if they're not (in Jürgen's opinion) then they should be fu**ed off and then it's up to Jürgen who he brings in as a new coach, whether that be Carragher or anybody else.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #45: Oct 27, 2017 04:27:24 pm

      Reality is we’ll probably get “b#ggered with a fish-fork” (again) as General Melchett (Blackadder) would say before he signs for Chelsea  :mad:


      Melchett's off to Chelsea? 

      Did you get that from Metro or Talkshite?

       :roll:

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