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      The academy: How well is it really doing?

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      Brian78
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      The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Oct 30, 2017 09:28:53 am
      Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria and Rhian Brewster. The 3 Liverpool players to win u30 and u17 world cups this year with England.

      Rhian arriving from Chelsea when he was 15. Ovie from Arsenal at 16 and Sheyi from MK dons at 14. All signed in.

      Our first team only has 1 player in it who came through the academy from scratch in Trent Alexander Arnold. With the all too rare appearance of Ben Woodburn the only other academy player here from the start near the 1st team.

      Is our academy actually doing as well as percieved? When you see the numbers involved in those world cup squads from Chelsea Everton Spurs. The players churned out by West ham Southampton  and the amount of players given game time at Arsenal and up to recently man utd are we producing enough?

      And more so why are we not producing enough of our own from 7 and 8 rather then signing them in at 15 or 16?
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #1: Oct 30, 2017 04:36:58 pm
      Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria and Rhian Brewster. The 3 Liverpool players to win u30 and u17 world cups this year with England.

      Rhian arriving from Chelsea when he was 15. Ovie from Arsenal at 16 and Sheyi from MK dons at 14. All signed in.

      Our first team only has 1 player in it who came through the academy from scratch in Trent Alexander Arnold. With the all too rare appearance of Ben Woodburn the only other academy player here from the start near the 1st team.

      Is our academy actually doing as well as percieved? When you see the numbers involved in those world cup squads from Chelsea Everton Spurs. The players churned out by West ham Southampton  and the amount of players given game time at Arsenal and up to recently man utd are we producing enough?

      And more so why are we not producing enough of our own from 7 and 8 rather then signing them in at 15 or 16?

      It's a fair point about the recruitment, and of course we can look back to the days of McManaman, Owen and Fowler as a fairly recent example of what you would hope for from your youth setup. That doesn't make it OK if we're underachieving, but I'd too far removed from the youth teams at the club to really have a gauge on what goes on there. I've studied his over here quite extensively (and it's effed up over here, believe me).

      Saying that, if we compare our leading 15-20 players in appearances, to the top 15-20 of City, United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal, for players who were with the club before age 18, or 16, or 14 or whatever it is, I'm guessing it would be about the same.

      Maybe we are on course to change that over the next few years. I think it would be a huge boost if we can do this, but culturally, it seems hard to do at a top club. How patient would people be with Ben Woodburn of Rhian Brewster getting a regular game. We've seen this a little bit even with TAA and Joe Gomez, right?

      Saturday began a stretch of 16 matches in 64 days for us (even with no League Cup). If we were ever going to utilize squad depth its now.
      shawspeed
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #2: Oct 30, 2017 06:22:16 pm
      Depends on how you look at it. If it's just to provide the majority of new players for our first team then it's probably a failure. If it's to find a few gems like TAA or Woodburn and cover costs by developing and selling on the likes of Suso, Pacheco, Wisdom etc.  then it's probably a success.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #3: Oct 30, 2017 06:24:40 pm
      Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria and Rhian Brewster. The 3 Liverpool players to win u30 and u17 world cups this year with England.

      Rhian arriving from Chelsea when he was 15. Ovie from Arsenal at 16 and Sheyi from MK dons at 14. All signed in.

      Our first team only has 1 player in it who came through the academy from scratch in Trent Alexander Arnold. With the all too rare appearance of Ben Woodburn the only other academy player here from the start near the 1st team.

      Is our academy actually doing as well as percieved? When you see the numbers involved in those world cup squads from Chelsea Everton Spurs. The players churned out by West ham Southampton  and the amount of players given game time at Arsenal and up to recently man utd are we producing enough?

      And more so why are we not producing enough of our own from 7 and 8 rather then signing them in at 15 or 16?

      A fair few of the city and chelsea yoingsters have been bought in from other clubs
      Magillionare
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #4: Oct 30, 2017 09:44:29 pm
      Our academy looks like it's coming out of some dark days. In the last 10 years we've produced nothing. You could argue Sterling, but I think he was an import from QPR or somewhere like that.

      Days are looking brighter with TAA, Woodburn and Brewster in particular looking good along with Ejaria and Ojo potentially being good players.... That being said I've been excited about plenty before and it's shown no return but this crop seems different to the last few crops. Hopefully we see them get some first team games because the only other player we've produced in the last decade is doing pretty well at AC Milan now because he didn't get a shot with us.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #5: Oct 31, 2017 02:10:44 am
      The Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be.

      Managers don't give kids a chance to develop in the first team as much as they used to down to the demand of instant success nowadays. Unfortunately, even the more experienced players are failing. And rather than give a few of the kids a go, managers persist with those same failing experienced players (see Danny Ward this year as a prime example). Kids are lucky if they're given ten games a season in today's Premier League. They might get a run out in the domestic cups but, if like us this year, they go out in the first round then they're waiting from September till January before they get another taste.

      The last manager who truly gave the kids a go was Dalglish. He had Flanagan, Robinson and Spearing all in the first team for a sustained run and none of the three looked out of place. Kenny was then sacked, Robinson disappeared completely from the first team set-up, Flanagan only got a run out when injuries forced Rodgers' hand and Spearing was demoted to play second fiddle to the likes of Lucas, Allen, Sahin. Now I know this forum won't agree with any of that and they'll bang on about how sh*t those three players were but under Dalglish (the only manager to win a trophy for the club in the past decade) they were all looking as if they could cement a place in the side for the long-term and that's because they had a manager who trusted them and gave them a sustained run in the side, rather than one or two games every couple of months.

      Since then we've had plenty of prospects get the odd run out. All coming into the first team with a lot of praise from the youth and/or reserve team levels. But it then breaks down because it is just the odd run out and in some cases it'll be the odd run out of position. And on top of that it'll be the odd run out in games with fringe players who are being told they're not good enough for the League or European games and another handful of kids. There's never a run out with the first team, where the better players can provide the youngsters with that extra bit of quality needed.

      Another thing I've been very critical of is the fact that the kids no longer train with the first team, they're off in Kirkby until they get the call up. There's bound to be nerves because they don't know the players they're joining up with and in most cases they're going to be starstruck. If they're training with the first team players every day, that disappears. Suddenly it's not Liverpool's saviour Sadio Mane that they're up against but just one of the lads. If, and when, Melwood finally closes it's doors and we move all our training facilities up to Kirkby then maybe that problem won't exist as much.

      So any promising youngster is only going to succeed at a club that allows them to succeed. The odd chance here and there isn't giving them the chances they need to "make it". It's giving them nothing really because even if they perform well against Wycombe or Port Vale or whoever in the Cups, they know come the following weekend when the League is our main focus again that they'll be nowhere near the 18 selected.

      But the fact we've had a number of kids given a game or two shows that the Academy is producing the talented players but the first team managers are failing the Academy by not giving them game time when they should be. Players don't develop by staying in the reserves, they stagnate. And they then get to the age of 21 where they haven't played enough football are considered too old to be given the chance. They need to be in the Premier League sides on a regular basis from a much earlier age. It doesn't mean 38 starts, it means at least half the season though, they are involved somehow - either starting or coming off the bench.

      However modern football won't allow that. So for all the hype we give our youngsters, none of them will "make it" at Anfield until a young kid is allowed to play and develop in the first team. Alexander-Arnold looks like he could get the opportunity although he's very quickly fell behind Gomez (a natural centre half) in the pecking order and, probably, wouldn't even be on the bench if Clyne was fit. Woodburn looks like he could get the opportunity yet he's played more for Wales this season than he has us. Harry Wilson has been tearing it up at youth level for a number of years yet he has one Liverpool appearance to his name.

      I know a lot of kids get loaned out nowadays, much more than they used to, which at the very least gives the players a chance to experience, competitive, first team football. But how many of our kids have gone out on loan and returned to stake a place in the starting XI? Very few because the managers don't give them that game time upon return. And that is what it boils down to, game time with the first team at Liverpool Football Club.

      But that means football as a culture has to change. Us as fans have to accept youngsters are going to have the odd dodgy game but stick with them rather than writing them off as soon as they have their first below par game. Owners have to stick with managers who are looking to build something by developing their youngsters rather than sacking a manager every couple of years. And managers need to have a pair of balls and stick with the youngsters they think can be good enough in a few years time rather than hooking them out the side as soon as one result goes tits up.

      I don't see any of that happening though and in five years time when Brewster scores his first goal for the newly promoted Divison Four side Luton, we'll be talking about how he never fulfilled his potential here. And how he's another one who never was good enough. And how he's found his level. But the owners, not just the current yanks but whoever we may get in the future, care solely about the money. So if they can snatch a kid from Bury for a couple of quid then sell him on for a couple of million, they're more than happy. So they're not interested in developing kids and the cycle of us not producing any quality first team players of our own will continue.

      So back to my original sentence, the Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be. And in today's football, there's not many teams who can afford the luxury of trying to develop a youngster in the first team.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #6: Oct 31, 2017 03:54:44 am
      Our academy looks like it's coming out of some dark days. In the last 10 years we've produced nothing. You could argue Sterling, but I think he was an import from QPR or somewhere like that.

      Days are looking brighter with TAA, Woodburn and Brewster in particular looking good along with Ejaria and Ojo potentially being good players.... That being said I've been excited about plenty before and it's shown no return but this crop seems different to the last few crops. Hopefully we see them get some first team games because the only other player we've produced in the last decade is doing pretty well at AC Milan now because he didn't get a shot with us.

      Out of the names you mention only really TAA, Woodburn & Ojo who we've produced.

      Brewster came from Chelsea, Ejaria from Arsenal even Suso who you mention originally came from Cadiz. To say we've produced these players is a bit of a lie, polished them up maybe, but we didn't produce them.
      Magillionare
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #7: Oct 31, 2017 07:27:37 am
      Out of the names you mention only really TAA, Woodburn & Ojo who we've produced.

      Brewster came from Chelsea, Ejaria from Arsenal even Suso who you mention originally came from Cadiz. To say we've produced these players is a bit of a lie, polished them up maybe, but we didn't produce them.


      Ah fair enough, sort of proves my point even more though right?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #8: Oct 31, 2017 12:34:45 pm
      Ah fair enough, sort of proves my point even more though right?

      Have to agree with DLS with this.

      The Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be.

      So back to my original sentence, the Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be. And in today's football, there's not many teams who can afford the luxury of trying to develop a youngster in the first team.



      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #9: Oct 31, 2017 03:18:59 pm
      Sadly it appears that the kids are only "developed" to be sold on: keeping the 'academy' ticking over til the next big earner, (IMO, obviously).

      I mean, be honest; was Sterling ever going to be kept when the Benjamins started raining? Nah. 😄
      Scotia
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #10: Oct 31, 2017 03:25:00 pm
      Sadly it appears that the kids are only "developed" to be sold on: keeping the 'academy' ticking over til the next big earner, (IMO, obviously).

      I mean, be honest; was Sterling ever going to be kept when the Benjamins started raining? Nah. 😄

      Spot on.

      Less Academy, more Nursery.......horticultu rally speaking  :mad:
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #11: Oct 31, 2017 04:03:53 pm
      The Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be.

      Managers don't give kids a chance to develop in the first team as much as they used to down to the demand of instant success nowadays. Unfortunately, even the more experienced players are failing. And rather than give a few of the kids a go, managers persist with those same failing experienced players (see Danny Ward this year as a prime example). Kids are lucky if they're given ten games a season in today's Premier League. They might get a run out in the domestic cups but, if like us this year, they go out in the first round then they're waiting from September till January before they get another taste.

      The last manager who truly gave the kids a go was Dalglish. He had Flanagan, Robinson and Spearing all in the first team for a sustained run and none of the three looked out of place. Kenny was then sacked, Robinson disappeared completely from the first team set-up, Flanagan only got a run out when injuries forced Rodgers' hand and Spearing was demoted to play second fiddle to the likes of Lucas, Allen, Sahin. Now I know this forum won't agree with any of that and they'll bang on about how sh*t those three players were but under Dalglish (the only manager to win a trophy for the club in the past decade) they were all looking as if they could cement a place in the side for the long-term and that's because they had a manager who trusted them and gave them a sustained run in the side, rather than one or two games every couple of months.

      Since then we've had plenty of prospects get the odd run out. All coming into the first team with a lot of praise from the youth and/or reserve team levels. But it then breaks down because it is just the odd run out and in some cases it'll be the odd run out of position. And on top of that it'll be the odd run out in games with fringe players who are being told they're not good enough for the League or European games and another handful of kids. There's never a run out with the first team, where the better players can provide the youngsters with that extra bit of quality needed.

      Another thing I've been very critical of is the fact that the kids no longer train with the first team, they're off in Kirkby until they get the call up. There's bound to be nerves because they don't know the players they're joining up with and in most cases they're going to be starstruck. If they're training with the first team players every day, that disappears. Suddenly it's not Liverpool's saviour Sadio Mane that they're up against but just one of the lads. If, and when, Melwood finally closes it's doors and we move all our training facilities up to Kirkby then maybe that problem won't exist as much.

      So any promising youngster is only going to succeed at a club that allows them to succeed. The odd chance here and there isn't giving them the chances they need to "make it". It's giving them nothing really because even if they perform well against Wycombe or Port Vale or whoever in the Cups, they know come the following weekend when the League is our main focus again that they'll be nowhere near the 18 selected.

      But the fact we've had a number of kids given a game or two shows that the Academy is producing the talented players but the first team managers are failing the Academy by not giving them game time when they should be. Players don't develop by staying in the reserves, they stagnate. And they then get to the age of 21 where they haven't played enough football are considered too old to be given the chance. They need to be in the Premier League sides on a regular basis from a much earlier age. It doesn't mean 38 starts, it means at least half the season though, they are involved somehow - either starting or coming off the bench.

      However modern football won't allow that. So for all the hype we give our youngsters, none of them will "make it" at Anfield until a young kid is allowed to play and develop in the first team. Alexander-Arnold looks like he could get the opportunity although he's very quickly fell behind Gomez (a natural centre half) in the pecking order and, probably, wouldn't even be on the bench if Clyne was fit. Woodburn looks like he could get the opportunity yet he's played more for Wales this season than he has us. Harry Wilson has been tearing it up at youth level for a number of years yet he has one Liverpool appearance to his name.

      I know a lot of kids get loaned out nowadays, much more than they used to, which at the very least gives the players a chance to experience, competitive, first team football. But how many of our kids have gone out on loan and returned to stake a place in the starting XI? Very few because the managers don't give them that game time upon return. And that is what it boils down to, game time with the first team at Liverpool Football Club.

      But that means football as a culture has to change. Us as fans have to accept youngsters are going to have the odd dodgy game but stick with them rather than writing them off as soon as they have their first below par game. Owners have to stick with managers who are looking to build something by developing their youngsters rather than sacking a manager every couple of years. And managers need to have a pair of balls and stick with the youngsters they think can be good enough in a few years time rather than hooking them out the side as soon as one result goes tits up.

      I don't see any of that happening though and in five years time when Brewster scores his first goal for the newly promoted Divison Four side Luton, we'll be talking about how he never fulfilled his potential here. And how he's another one who never was good enough. And how he's found his level. But the owners, not just the current yanks but whoever we may get in the future, care solely about the money. So if they can snatch a kid from Bury for a couple of quid then sell him on for a couple of million, they're more than happy. So they're not interested in developing kids and the cycle of us not producing any quality first team players of our own will continue.

      So back to my original sentence, the Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be. And in today's football, there's not many teams who can afford the luxury of trying to develop a youngster in the first team.

      Hope you're wrong about Brewster, Woodburn, etc. but if you are they would be breaking a trend. Wicked spot on post.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #12: Oct 31, 2017 05:15:44 pm
      The last manager who truly gave the kids a go was Dalglish. He had Flanagan, Robinson and Spearing all in the first team for a sustained run and none of the three looked out of place. Kenny was then sacked, Robinson disappeared completely from the first team set-up, Flanagan only got a run out when injuries forced Rodgers' hand and Spearing was demoted to play second fiddle to the likes of Lucas, Allen, Sahin. Now I know this forum won't agree with any of that and they'll bang on about how sh*t those three players were but under Dalglish (the only manager to win a trophy for the club in the past decade) they were all looking as if they could cement a place in the side for the long-term and that's because they had a manager who trusted them and gave them a sustained run in the side, rather than one or two games every couple of months.

      Flanagan looked decent under Rodgers for a period but injuries have since set him back. He just doesn't look the same player.

      I disagree about Robinson and Spearing though. Jay was OK for a short period of time but in bigger games - like the FA Cup final - he was soon found wanting.

      And it's not like he hasn't played football regularly ever since, he's captained Bolton for a while but he's then gone from the Championship to League One. Do you seriously believe he'd be a good enough Premier League player for Liverpool FC if only we had had more patience? I find it quite hard to believe.

      We also happened to have our worst league finish in some five decades when using those kids. There's a reason why they were played more often, and that was that our squad was sh*te and stretched by two cup runs.
      « Last Edit: Oct 31, 2017 05:25:49 pm by Diego LFC »
      ruthcity
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #13: Oct 31, 2017 05:43:18 pm
      "We want proven players like VVD, not unproven young things."

      Which is why kids need to be setting the league alight once they come on like a young Rooney or otherwise risk losing game time.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #14: Oct 31, 2017 06:46:10 pm
      "We want proven players like VVD, not unproven young things."

      Would be handy if we actually got transfers for proven players sorted first.

      Scottbot
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #15: Oct 31, 2017 07:22:39 pm
      I think our Academy has done as well as most of the other top sides in recent years. You have to accept that the game has changed somewhat in the last 20 years and as DLS points out, the kids simply don't getting the space, patience and first team opportunities to stake a claim in odeon day footy. It's mostly league cup games alongside other youngsters and squad players and the odd 15 minute run out in
      The EPL if they're lucky. Also, I wouldn't discount a player like Sterling just because he came in from QPR as a 15 year old, the club still had to spot him, recruit him Andy then move him on to first team standard. im certain he would still be doing a good job at LFC rit now had we some more ambitious owners.

      Of the current crop you have to like the chances for TAA and Woodburn and of course young Brewster looks like an exciting prospect but time will tell, it is very likely that none of them will fulfill their potential but I reckon we have a solid player in TAA and potentially a very good player in Woodburn. But Brewster is the one we could with most and if he could turn out to be anything like Rashford I'm sure we'd all be very very happy.
      JD
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #16: Nov 21, 2017 06:23:54 pm
      U23's beat Everton 4-0 on Saturday (Everton are 2nd) and the U19's beat Sevilla 4-0 today in their own ground so, I think we can say they're doing alright?
      skamp
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #17: Nov 23, 2017 03:48:04 pm
      "You can't win anything with kids"......
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #18: Apr 04, 2021 11:55:35 am
      I've revisited this thread because this season in particular has shown us that our Academy is producing first team quality players. And while a lot of it has been forced upon us due to the number of injuries we've sustained, the lads coming in haven't looked out of their depth by any stretch.

      Nat Phillips in particular has, as far as I'm concerned, cemented his place alongside Van Dijk for the start of the next season. He's been our best player this campaign.

      Rhys Williams, other than one dodgy outing against United in the Cup, hasn't failed to impress when given the opportunity. He may get caught out with a lack of pace but has looked solid enough.

      Neco Williams is the one lad to come through the ranks who I don't see any sort of future with at Liverpool. He just doesn't look good enough in my opinion. Having said that, he's still done OK and given a proper run in the team - who knows? He certainly seems to grow into games.

      Trent Alexander-Arnold has been in the team for a number of years now and at the age of just 22 has already become one of the most important players to our team. He's had a sh*t season by his high standards this term but if his levels of the last two years weren't so high then people would be saying this year has been alright.

      Curtis Jones has been given plenty of game time this year and has usually taken the opportunity with both hands. Impresses most of the time he plays, looks like he believes he should be at this level and has grown into his role as the seasons gone on.

      As well as those who've featured a bit more prominently, we've seen a couple of kids get a run out in the odd Cup game like we do every other year. I'm not a massive fan of that because they get one game and never seen again. They need to be playing with our first team on a more regular basis. But one player who I think has shone in those limited number of games is Kelleher. At the start of the season, i'd made me mind up about him that he weren't good enough. The few games he got last year, he looked completely lost. This year though, he's looked like a potentially top notch keeper.

      And it brings me back round to what I said four years ago...

      The Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be.

      The first team this year has been forced to rely on our reserve/Academy players, more than we would of liked. But because of it, it's shown that we are capable of providing the first team with quality players without the need to break record transfer fees. If we hadn't been shot to bits at centre half, then Phillips and Williams would probably be out of the club by now or at the very least come the summer. Neco would probably be loaned out, Jones would of probably played half the number of games he has and we'd be left saying that our Academy is still failing to produce quality.

      Give them a sustained run in the team and you never know, you might just find yourself a gem.
      JD
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #19: Apr 04, 2021 03:38:20 pm
      Give them a sustained run in the team and you never know, you might just find yourself a gem.

      Always been the way though.  At this level of football you normally need an injury crisis or something to get yourself in.  Gerrard in for Redknapp.  Trent in for Clyne.  How would it all have worked out for them if they hadn't got in through major injuries to other players? 

      Curtis Jones was developing nicely but now a few players are back from injury how does he get picked in the starting XI again for a 10 game run?
      Brian78
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #20: Apr 04, 2021 09:01:07 pm
      Always been the way though.  At this level of football you normally need an injury crisis or something to get yourself in.  Gerrard in for Redknapp.  Trent in for Clyne.  How would it all have worked out for them if they hadn't got in through major injuries to other players? 

      Curtis Jones was developing nicely but now a few players are back from injury how does he get picked in the starting XI again for a 10 game run?

      Add in the pressure managers are under, not only to win but imagine leaving  player say on 150G a week or in your top 5 earners, out to play a kid, even if the kid has earned that chance.

      I think your right most kids chances come from injury to first teamers or if they get a league cup game and stand out
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #21: Apr 04, 2021 09:03:16 pm
      I've revisited this thread because this season in particular has shown us that our Academy is producing first team quality players. And while a lot of it has been forced upon us due to the number of injuries we've sustained, the lads coming in haven't looked out of their depth by any stretch.

      Nat Phillips in particular has, as far as I'm concerned, cemented his place alongside Van Dijk for the start of the next season. He's been our best player this campaign.

      Rhys Williams, other than one dodgy outing against United in the Cup, hasn't failed to impress when given the opportunity. He may get caught out with a lack of pace but has looked solid enough.

      Neco Williams is the one lad to come through the ranks who I don't see any sort of future with at Liverpool. He just doesn't look good enough in my opinion. Having said that, he's still done OK and given a proper run in the team - who knows? He certainly seems to grow into games.

      Trent Alexander-Arnold has been in the team for a number of years now and at the age of just 22 has already become one of the most important players to our team. He's had a sh*t season by his high standards this term but if his levels of the last two years weren't so high then people would be saying this year has been alright.

      Curtis Jones has been given plenty of game time this year and has usually taken the opportunity with both hands. Impresses most of the time he plays, looks like he believes he should be at this level and has grown into his role as the seasons gone on.

      As well as those who've featured a bit more prominently, we've seen a couple of kids get a run out in the odd Cup game like we do every other year. I'm not a massive fan of that because they get one game and never seen again. They need to be playing with our first team on a more regular basis. But one player who I think has shone in those limited number of games is Kelleher. At the start of the season, i'd made me mind up about him that he weren't good enough. The few games he got last year, he looked completely lost. This year though, he's looked like a potentially top notch keeper.

      And it brings me back round to what I said four years ago...

      The first team this year has been forced to rely on our reserve/Academy players, more than we would of liked. But because of it, it's shown that we are capable of providing the first team with quality players without the need to break record transfer fees. If we hadn't been shot to bits at centre half, then Phillips and Williams would probably be out of the club by now or at the very least come the summer. Neco would probably be loaned out, Jones would of probably played half the number of games he has and we'd be left saying that our Academy is still failing to produce quality.

      Give them a sustained run in the team and you never know, you might just find yourself a gem.


      Sorry but Nat Phillips will Imo leave in the summer - he is doing well but he isn’t mobile enough or quick enough to be a CB at a team looking to win title etc

      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #22: Apr 05, 2021 11:53:38 am

      Sorry but Nat Phillips will Imo leave in the summer - he is doing well but he isn’t mobile enough or quick enough to be a CB at a team looking to win title etc



      You don't have to be, some of the best defenders have not always been blessed with pace. He's different from the other defenders we have and in all honesty I would rather keep Phillips than Matip. Matip should be the one to leave.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #23: Apr 05, 2021 02:02:06 pm
      You don't have to be, some of the best defenders have not always been blessed with pace. He's different from the other defenders we have and in all honesty I would rather keep Phillips than Matip. Matip should be the one to leave.


      Would agree with you but the way Klopp likes his CB to have the high line and to cover for the fullbacks I can see Phillips being the odd one out in the summer


      VVD , Gomez , Kabak , Matip and a new CB


      Phillips will be sold imo with Williams going on loan
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #24: Apr 05, 2021 02:29:15 pm

      Would agree with you but the way Klopp likes his CB to have the high line and to cover for the fullbacks I can see Phillips being the odd one out in the summer


      VVD , Gomez , Kabak , Matip and a new CB


      Phillips will be sold imo with Williams going on loan

      Sorry but Matip can't even last 45 mins without picking up a knock. Phillips has to be kept and Matip released. It's the only logical decision.
      HScRed1
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #25: Apr 05, 2021 10:03:21 pm
      You don't have to be, some of the best defenders have not always been blessed with pace. He's different from the other defenders we have and in all honesty I would rather keep Phillips than Matip. Matip should be the one to leave.

      He probably will as well.

      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #26: Apr 06, 2021 12:16:23 pm
      Sorry but Matip can't even last 45 mins without picking up a knock. Phillips has to be kept and Matip released. It's the only logical decision.

      Matip may go as well but Phillips will be moved on - he has been great and stuck his head in but he is the step below what’s needed -
      FL Red
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #27: Apr 06, 2021 03:41:47 pm
      Sorry but Matip can't even last 45 mins without picking up a knock. Phillips has to be kept and Matip released. It's the only logical decision.

      That’s fair, but we still should be putting someone better than Nat alongside Virgil. Whether that’s a healthy Gomez, or someone they’ve yet to bring in, we need another ball playing CB.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #28: Apr 06, 2021 03:43:10 pm
      Matip may go as well but Phillips will be moved on - he has been great and stuck his head in but he is the step below what’s needed -

      As a 5th option, he is not.
      billythered
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #29: Apr 06, 2021 04:56:47 pm
      Unfortunately I think Matip’s goose is cooked, he is a very good CB but we cannot afford a very good CB lying on a recovery bench 3/4 times every season,
       with Kabak on loan the jury is still out on whether he earns a full contract, Gomez is still young enough to recover from his injury woes and I see him with a bright future,
       Nat Phillips is a old fashioned defender who will go thru the proverbial brick wall and for me has earned his place in the squad, young Rhys needs game time and is more likely to be loaned out,

      Ibrahima Konate is a player I would like to see come in and I believe Jürgen has had a very keen eye on, he’s the kind of defender we need, fast, strong and reads the game well, Virgil & Gomez or Virgil & Konate look pretty formidable with decent back up from Phillips & Kabak, we have Billy Koumetio in the ressies but probably too early for that young lad yet, but might see more of him in the cup runs,

      I’d be surprised if we retain the service of Matip beyond his contract, not entirely sure how long he has left but in the interim if he’s fit & match fit we should play him, or at least have the option to, it’s incomprehensible that we would have a injury hit season again next season, so having a possible six CB ‘s I think it’s safe to say we’ll be covered.




                                                                               Y  N  W  A

      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #30: Apr 06, 2021 05:15:40 pm
      That’s fair, but we still should be putting someone better than Nat alongside Virgil. Whether that’s a healthy Gomez, or someone they’ve yet to bring in, we need another ball playing CB.

      I'm not saying he should be starting, but he's earned a place in the squad imo
      Brian78
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #31: Apr 06, 2021 05:37:20 pm
      I'm not saying he should be starting, but he's earned a place in the squad imo

      Nat?

      For me hes jumped above Matip. I love Matip but hes unreliable as in playing more then 2 games back to back.

      For me VVD, Joe and Konate if we sign him are 1 2 and 3 with Kabak if he stays and Nat battling for 4 and 5
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #32: Apr 06, 2021 05:45:25 pm
      Nat?

      For me hes jumped above Matip. I love Matip but hes unreliable as in playing more then 2 games back to back.

      For me VVD, Joe and Konate if we sign him are 1 2 and 3 with Kabak if he stays and Nat battling for 4 and 5

      That sounds about right to me.
      rossyred
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #33: Apr 06, 2021 06:36:54 pm
      Nat?

      For me hes jumped above Matip. I love Matip but hes unreliable as in playing more then 2 games back to back.

      For me VVD, Joe and Konate if we sign him are 1 2 and 3 with Kabak if he stays and Nat battling for 4 and 5

      Let's not forget Ben Davies 🤔
      srslfc
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #34: Apr 09, 2021 11:37:27 am

      Likewise.
      FL Red
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #35: Apr 09, 2021 02:18:07 pm
      Nat?

      For me hes jumped above Matip. I love Matip but hes unreliable as in playing more then 2 games back to back.

      For me VVD, Joe and Konate if we sign him are 1 2 and 3 with Kabak if he stays and Nat battling for 4 and 5

      My fear is that Joe is going to follow in the footsteps of Joel injury wise. He's had a rough go of it and although I don't believe his injuries are indicative of a recurring type of issue, the body still seems to break down easier, the more you get sidelined. If the Konate rumors are true, it would seem it will be Virg, Konate, Kabak and then Davies (insert Joe into the first three when healthy). I think Nat's performances this season are admirable but they may be a rehearsal for starting time at another club because he won't get much with us.
      EarnedIt6Times
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #36: May 17, 2021 08:49:18 pm
      The academy under Michael Edwards is basically just a stable of horses, designed to do nothing more than make the club money. Sign every single player up on 5-year pro contracts, loan them out, loan them out, loan them out, loan them out, loan them out, sell them. For me it's treading a very fine ethical/moral line and I'm not sure we're on the right side of that line. And I'm not just talking LFC. Look at Chelsea.

      Seen it this last week, 2 more long-term contracts for 2 lads that - bless their cotton socks - will never play a single minute for our club: Fidel O'Rourke and Matteo Ritaccio. God knows I'd love to see a lad with a name like Fidel O'Rourke play for us but he just won't.

      The only players in recent years who seem to have seen through the bullshit that Edwards sells these lads are Ryan Kent, Jordan Rossiter and George Johnston who all said "F**k yer 5-year contracts and empty promises about 'pathways', we're off" and fair fucks to them for that.

      There's a lot of bullshit attached to Juergen Klopp in terms of people lauding him for being some great nurturer of youth talent. His record as our boss has been one of lads only ever getting their chance if there's some big injury crisis. It's how Trent got in, Curtis has got games, and Phillips and Rhys have got games this season.

      Phillips and Rhys aren't ever going to be anywhere near good enough to play for us in the medium term, regardless of the Nat Phillips Fan Cult which I suspect is being run by a still alive Charles Manson and there's a lorra lorra hallucinogenic drugs being taken.

      There's a long running thread on another LFC forum which virtually scientifically proves that taking an interest in our academy players is an almost total waste of time as one 'promising' youngster after another fails to come through, over two decades.

      LFC under Rafa spent years brainwashing the fanbase into believing Dani Pacheco was a dead cert to be the new Deco or whatever, despite it being clear to me that being 5 foot tall in the Prem wasn't going to work and he didn't actually even stand out at academy level. He has disappeared without trace. To be fair it is hard if you're that small; you tend to just disappear from pro football, not just drop divisions. It's why I expect Clarkson to just disappear in the same way, not even re-appear in the 4th division or whatever. It's why Jay S dropped so far. Managers don't like very small players.

      My big problem with the academy at the moment is Vitor Matos and his club of little favourite-wavourites like Billy Koumetio, who has had a godawful season yet still gets on the bench somehow because he's in Vitor's little favourite-wavourite club. It sends completely the wrong message to the other young lads. As long as you're in Vitor's little 'elite' group it doesn't matter how sh*t you are in terms of performances. So Jarell - who has been with us since he was a young kid - has to sit there and watch French import Billy Calamity get a place on the bench.

      The system tends to favour foreign players over lads who have been there since birth or whatever. The fawning over Pacheco was quite vomit-inducing, while real local talents like Adam Hammill are fu**ed off out the club because they dared to eat a pack of prawn cocktail crisps or turned up 2 minutes late for training or their parents had a bit of attitude. We tend to favour "nice boys from nice families" when it comes to the local(ish) lads. I don't care if they know where to lay a fish knife on a dining table if they're sh*t at footie.

      Matos needs f**king off. He only got the job cos he's Lijnders' mate from Portugal. And the whole favourite-wavourite club needs binning. Lads should be sent up to train with the firsts on merit and form, not cos they're part of some fast-track stream bollocks.

      Kaide Gordon will get special treatment as we paid money for him, but he's at least earning first team training opportunities with his performances. Koumetio isn't. Far from it.

      We're wasting time with Clarkson and Cain when we've got a real talent in Tyler Morton we could be bringing into first team training.

      I know Klopp likes to delegate but he needs to take more interest or just replace Matos with someone with a genuine eye for a player.

      The primary issue though at this time is what the plan is for Curtis. He's a massive talent. We can't just play him 10 games a season and expect him to become the player he can be. We need a proper development plan for Curtis with proper game time at LFC, not loaned out. But still win League #20 and Big Ears #7 at the same time.

      That's not an easy task but that's why Klopp's paid a massive amount of money and is LFC manager, to somehow make all the pieces fit.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #37: May 17, 2021 09:06:50 pm
      The academy under Michael Edwards is basically just a stable of horses, designed to do nothing more than make the club money. Sign every single player up on 5-year pro contracts, loan them out, loan them out, loan them out, loan them out, loan them out, sell them. For me it's treading a very fine ethical/moral line and I'm not sure we're on the right side of that line. And I'm not just talking LFC. Look at Chelsea.

      Seen it this last week, 2 more long-term contracts for 2 lads that - bless their cotton socks - will never play a single minute for our club: Fidel O'Rourke and Matteo Ritaccio. God knows I'd love to see a lad with a name like Fidel O'Rourke play for us but he just won't.

      The only players in recent years who seem to have seen through the bullshit that Edwards sells these lads are Ryan Kent, Jordan Rossiter and George Johnston who all said "F**k yer 5-year contracts and empty promises about 'pathways', we're off" and fair fucks to them for that.

      There's a lot of bullshit attached to Juergen Klopp in terms of people lauding him for being some great nurturer of youth talent. His record as our boss has been one of lads only ever getting their chance if there's some big injury crisis. It's how Trent got in, Curtis has got games, and Phillips and Rhys have got games this season.

      Phillips and Rhys aren't ever going to be anywhere near good enough to play for us in the medium term, regardless of the Nat Phillips Fan Cult which I suspect is being run by a still alive Charles Manson and there's a lorra lorra hallucinogenic drugs being taken.

      There's a long running thread on another LFC forum which virtually scientifically proves that taking an interest in our academy players is an almost total waste of time as one 'promising' youngster after another fails to come through, over two decades.

      LFC under Rafa spent years brainwashing the fanbase into believing Dani Pacheco was a dead cert to be the new Deco or whatever, despite it being clear to me that being 5 foot tall in the Prem wasn't going to work and he didn't actually even stand out at academy level. He has disappeared without trace. To be fair it is hard if you're that small; you tend to just disappear from pro football, not just drop divisions. It's why I expect Clarkson to just disappear in the same way, not even re-appear in the 4th division or whatever. It's why Jay S dropped so far. Managers don't like very small players.

      My big problem with the academy at the moment is Vitor Matos and his club of little favourite-wavourites like Billy Koumetio, who has had a godawful season yet still gets on the bench somehow because he's in Vitor's little favourite-wavourite club. It sends completely the wrong message to the other young lads. As long as you're in Vitor's little 'elite' group it doesn't matter how sh*t you are in terms of performances. So Jarell - who has been with us since he was a young kid - has to sit there and watch French import Billy Calamity get a place on the bench.

      The system tends to favour foreign players over lads who have been there since birth or whatever. The fawning over Pacheco was quite vomit-inducing, while real local talents like Adam Hammill are fu**ed off out the club because they dared to eat a pack of prawn cocktail crisps or turned up 2 minutes late for training or their parents had a bit of attitude. We tend to favour "nice boys from nice families" when it comes to the local(ish) lads. I don't care if they know where to lay a fish knife on a dining table if they're sh*t at footie.

      Matos needs f**king off. He only got the job cos he's Lijnders' mate from Portugal. And the whole favourite-wavourite club needs binning. Lads should be sent up to train with the firsts on merit and form, not cos they're part of some fast-track stream bollocks.

      Kaide Gordon will get special treatment as we paid money for him, but he's at least earning first team training opportunities with his performances. Koumetio isn't. Far from it.

      We're wasting time with Clarkson and Cain when we've got a real talent in Tyler Morton we could be bringing into first team training.

      I know Klopp likes to delegate but he needs to take more interest or just replace Matos with someone with a genuine eye for a player.

      The primary issue though at this time is what the plan is for Curtis. He's a massive talent. We can't just play him 10 games a season and expect him to become the player he can be. We need a proper development plan for Curtis with proper game time at LFC, not loaned out. But still win League #20 and Big Ears #7 at the same time.

      That's not an easy task but that's why Klopp's paid a massive amount of money and is LFC manager, to somehow make all the pieces fit.

      Christ, you don't half suffer from verbal diarrhoea.  Do you actually think klopp will blindly get someone to train with the first team solely on someone else's
       recommendation. He stated one of the best things about the new training ground is that he could monitor the youngsters more closely. Your weird obsession with Matos is based on Christ knows what.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #38: May 17, 2021 09:32:17 pm
      Christ, you don't half suffer from verbal diarrhoea.  Do you actually think klopp will blindly get someone to train with the first team solely on someone else's
       recommendation. He stated one of the best things about the new training ground is that he could monitor the youngsters more closely. Your weird obsession with Matos is based on Christ knows what.

      We could really use cliff notes when trying to read some of his posts. However, i do think one of the roles of the academy is to provide us with emergency fill ins but also sellable assets to help improve the first team. The required level to be a regular at Liverpool is a lot higher than at Sunderland which means the very vast majority of academy players will not make it.

      Don't care how many games we would have provided them, i don't think Woodburn, Jerome Sinclair, Chirivella, Connor Masterson, Camacho, etc were ever going to make it here, but just because they are not Liverpool quality does not mean they can't go on and have footy careers at lesser teams. I think if we could get 1 "regular" out of the academy every year would be amazing but even that is wishful thinking given our high bar.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #39: May 17, 2021 09:37:39 pm
      The primary issue though at this time is what the plan is for Curtis. He's a massive talent. We can't just play him 10 games a season and expect him to become the player he can be. We need a proper development plan for Curtis with proper game time at LFC, not loaned out. But still win League #20 and Big Ears #7 at the same time.

      That's not an easy task but that's why Klopp's paid a massive amount of money and is LFC manager, to somehow make all the pieces fit.

      I like Jones a lot, but notice in the Gini thread most people are rolling out their wish list of replacements for him but not many mention Jones taking on a bigger role, which in my opinion is what should happen. The moment a spot opens up people immediately start thinking "WHO SHOULD WE BUY TO REPLACE HIM", even though the answer could already be there.

      The guy is a talent and we should be clearing a path for him to earn a spot in the first team instead of adding players who will block it, though then we'd have to hear about net spend and how cheap we are because we lost Gini and didnt bring in a 50M replacement  :roll:
      GERNS
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #40: May 18, 2021 09:01:50 am
      I like Jones a lot, but notice in the Gini thread most people are rolling out their wish list of replacements for him but not many mention Jones taking on a bigger role, which in my opinion is what should happen. The moment a spot opens up people immediately start thinking "WHO SHOULD WE BUY TO REPLACE HIM", even though the answer could already be there.

      The guy is a talent and we should be clearing a path for him to earn a spot in the first team instead of adding players who will block it, though then we'd have to hear about net spend and how cheap we are because we lost Gini and didnt bring in a 50M replacement  :roll:


      Personally I don’t think Curtis is the real deal.
      He’s certainly talented, but to often wants to take too many touches, want to make a big show with the ball at his feet, which results in losing possession, or just slows the play down. No doubt he can be coached to cut that out, but I don’t believe nothing would have been said about it, yet he continues with it, like it’s in his dna.
      Decent player who has his moments, but doesn’t offer enough consistently for me.
      Hardly set the place on fire as an attacking midfielder has he ?
      L4.19Times
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #41: May 18, 2021 09:09:57 am

      Personally I don’t think Curtis is the real deal.
      He’s certainly talented, but to often wants to take too many touches, want to make a big show with the ball at his feet, which results in losing possession, or just slows the play down. No doubt he can be coached to cut that out, but I don’t believe nothing would have been said about it, yet he continues with it, like it’s in his dna.
      Decent player who has his moments, but doesn’t offer enough consistently for me.
      Hardly set the place on fire as an attacking midfielder has he ?

      Maybe because he is a young kid, consistency comes with age and experience

      There's enough there for me to show he has a bright future
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #42: May 18, 2021 11:58:19 am
      I wonder if you looked at the 500 registered Premier League players, (20, 25-man squads), how many came up through the youth ranks of their respective clubs. Surprised if it's 20 percent.
      EarnedIt6Times
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #43: May 18, 2021 12:05:53 pm
      Do you actually think klopp will blindly get someone to train with the first team solely on someone else's
       recommendation. He stated one of the best things about the new training ground is that he could monitor the youngsters more closely. Your weird obsession with Matos is based on Christ knows what.

      Yes, Klopp has stated on numerous times that it's a team effort and he has to delegate. He can hardly then un-delegate as it means he'll have to sack Matos, which he should do because Matos is f**king sh*t at his job and only got it through nepotism.
      EarnedIt6Times
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #44: May 18, 2021 12:10:40 pm
      The moment a spot opens up people immediately start thinking "WHO SHOULD WE BUY TO REPLACE HIM", even though the answer could already be there.

      Loads of fans these days are more interested in transfers than the matches

      In fact I'd say the majority (I'm talking about fans that don't actually go the match)

      It's like some sort of compulsive obsessive disorder, not helped by the way the media talk about football, they seem more obsessed with transfer stories than actual match reports, probably cos it helps sell papers or get clicks
      EarnedIt6Times
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #45: May 18, 2021 12:21:15 pm

      Personally I don’t think Curtis is the real deal.


      Oh he is. It's now Juergen's job to get the best out of him.

      I didn't think Curtis could play as an 8, and I'm not convinced that's his position, but he's done well this season, better than could be expected in terms of the defensive side of the game, he's stuck at it. He's played well within his abilities, like Wijnaldum, and that all comes from Klopp instilling discipline and understanding of the role, the necessity to do the boring stuff. Curtis could just flick a switch and do more exciting stuff if he wanted to.

      The way the ball sticks to his feet like glue, the movement, it's like watching a young Robert Pires. He's the player I always come back to when trying to describe who Curtis reminds me of in style of play. Of course Pires played up front on the left and maybe that's where Curtis will end up, who knows, he could also play as a false 9 like Bobby IMO though I'd prefer us to move away from this and get a proper striker in that position who wants to get on the end of crosses rather than drop off.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #46: May 18, 2021 04:48:30 pm
      Yes, Klopp has stated on numerous times that it's a team effort and he has to delegate. He can hardly then un-delegate as it means he'll have to sack Matos, which he should do because Matos is f**king sh*t at his job and only got it through nepotism.

      How do you know with such certainty that he is sh*t at his job ? You say he got the job because of ljinders, well I imagine some of jurgens backroom staff joined because they know him. An absolutely ridiculous argument.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #47: May 18, 2021 04:50:33 pm
      How do you know with such certainty that he is sh*t at his job ? You say he got the job because of ljinders, well I imagine some of jurgens backroom staff joined because they know him. An absolutely ridiculous argument.

      Reminds me of Achterberg, who many thought was sh*t and wanted gone but since Alisson arrived suddenly those cries have silenced.
      HUYTON RED
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
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      • 33,045 posts | 5505 
      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #48: May 18, 2021 06:03:46 pm
      Arl fella had a fare before dropping off one of our top scouts in Ireland. Nothing mentioned about incoming signings :laugh:

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