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      Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?

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      redkop63
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #23: Dec 29, 2017 10:23:46 am
      On a  realistic note, I would think 3rd place in the league, quarter finals in the CL and  an FA Cup will be a real improvement from last season. One step at a time, not that we have an all conquering side at the moment.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #24: Dec 29, 2017 12:16:24 pm
      Thatā€™s why I said Iā€™d be very happy with winning one...  :laugh:

      But Iā€™m realistic to know that a comfortable top 4 entry, also the fact it being two years on the trot weā€™d qualify (stability) and good showing in the CL is a step in the right direction compared to our usual struggles missing out on top 4 the season after getting it, while also CL performances were poor... so yeah I wouldnā€™t complain, totally happy? No, but Iā€™m not blind to the improvement...

      I know, like I said, I wasn't getting at you, all I meant was that it shows how far we've fallen as a club when supporters will accept the progress of not winning anything so long as we finish 4th. It's not a criticism of supporters but the club's failure. I do think we need to win something though this season. This team is getting used to not winning anything, to being perennial alsorans. I think for their own growth they need to lift a trophy, even if its just the FA Cup. A trophy would also be a visual symbol of our progress back towards being a successful club. I also think Klopp needs to win something in order to show that he can because he hasn't won a major trophy in five years and his success is rather overplayed in the minds of many supporters - Two Bundesliga titles, one domestic cup and two (German equivalent to) Charity Shields.  I think Klopp needs to show that he's not just a great motivator, not just a great coach, but a proven winner.
      Scotia
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #25: Dec 29, 2017 12:20:25 pm
      I know, like I said, I wasn't getting at you, all I meant was that it shows how far we've fallen as a club when supporters will accept the progress of not winning anything so long as we finish 4th. It's not a criticism of supporters but the club's failure. I do think we need to win something though this season. This team is getting used to not winning anything, to being perennial alsorans. I think for their own growth they need to lift a trophy, even if its just the FA Cup. A trophy would also be a visual symbol of our progress back towards being a successful club. I also think Klopp needs to win something in order to show that he can because he hasn't won a major trophy in five years and his success is rather overplayed in the minds of many supporters - Two Bundesliga titles, one domestic cup and two (German equivalent to) Charity Shields.  I think Klopp needs to show that he's not just a great motivator, not just a great coach, but a proven winner.

      Success overplayed?

      If we accept that winning the Bundisliga if youā€™re not Bayern Munich is at least as hard as winning the Premiership how does that logic work?

      But hey - he might win a trophy and get sacked like the last guy to do so.......thatā€™d be a ā€œwin-winā€ for you would it not?

      Didnā€™t you call for his head around September?
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #26: Dec 29, 2017 12:44:20 pm
      If we accept that winning the Bundisliga if youā€™re not Bayern Munich is at least as hard as winning the Premiership how does that logic work?

      I'm not sure I accept that myself... (this bears no relevance to the main topic of the thread but I just like intruding into other people's conversations)

      I'd say that winning the Bundesliga if you're not Bayern Munich around the Guardiola era would've been perhaps as hard as winning the Premier League, but at the time Klopp did it, he was not exactly making unheard of type of history there.

      Bayern may have won 5 in a row in 2016-17, and are now on their way towards winning a 6th this season, but this is actually the first time they have won more than 3 league titles in a row, ever. So this type of dominance is actually a more recent development.

      Before that, what you had was generally Bayern dominating, but whenever they had a bad year for some reason or another, a random club would, on occasion, win the league. That's the advantage of pretty much having only one major adversary - if they f**k up, you have a real chance.

      That's how Dortmund won it in 2001-02 under Matthias Sammer (who later went on to do a good job as Bayern sporting director), then Werder Bremen in 2003-04 under Thomas Schaaf, Armin Veh's Stuttgart in 2006-07, Wolfsburg won their first ever Bundesliga in 2008-09 under Felix Magath, and finally Dortmund did it in 2010-11 with our JĆ¼rgen. And yet, none of those managers are held in as high regard as JĆ¼rgen just for having won the Bundesliga with a club not named Bayern (for good reason, I'd add, but I'm just making a different point here).

      The main difference in JĆ¼rgen's case was that he did it twice in a row, something that only Dortmund themselves (in 94-95 and 95-96), Hamburg (in the 80's) and Monchengladbach (in the 70's) have ever done, aside of course from Bayern Munich. Moreover, he made a mark in Europe in a way the likes of Stuttgart and Wolfsburg never did (though similarly to the Dortmund of the 90's, who were European champions), and rebuilt them from a near bankrupt position to a team that is sustainably challenging, even if still far behind Bayern in many dimensions.

      So I'm not in any way trying to diminish JĆ¼rgen's work at Dortmund as it was absolutely brilliant, just throwing it out there in regards to the comparison you made. And mostly because I actually went through the winning managers of every single European top leagues for the past 30 years recently (to prove a point in another thread), so I have all this useless knowledge in my brain I felt I should put to use. ;D

      Anyway, the Premier League these days is definitely the most competitive league in the world, and much harder to win by comparison. Not only there are many clubs with relatively similar spending power, you could also argue that the league has attracted the very best managers in the world.
      GERNS
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #27: Dec 29, 2017 12:53:39 pm
      Successful would be FA Cup winners, semi-finalist of the Champions League and 2nd place, which is double on points right now. Bear minimum would be 4th and reaching quarter finals of the Champions League. Side question: Does Klopp need to win a cup with it being his third year in charge and given his record with them?

      Not sure about having to win something, but last 4 CL and 2nd in Prem would be a marked improvement for me.
      Scotia
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #28: Dec 29, 2017 12:56:28 pm
      I'm not sure I accept that myself... (this bears no relevance to the main topic of the thread but I just like intruding into other people's conversations)

      I'd say that winning the Bundesliga if you're not Bayern Munich around the Guardiola era would've been perhaps as hard as winning the Premier League, but at the time Klopp did it, he was not exactly making unheard of type of history there.

      Bayern may have won 5 in a row in 2016-17, and are now on their way towards winning a 6th this season, but this is actually the first time they have won more than 3 league titles in a row, ever. So this type of dominance is actually a more recent development.

      Before that, what you had was generally Bayern dominating, but whenever they had a bad year for some reason or another, a random club would, on occasion, win the league. That's the advantage of pretty much having only one major adversary - if they f**k up, you have a real chance.

      That's how Dortmund won it in 2001-02 under Matthias Sammer (who later went on to do a good job as Bayern sporting director), then Werder Bremen in 2003-04 under Thomas Schaaf, Armin Veh's Stuttgart in 2006-07, Wolfsburg won their first ever Bundesliga in 2008-09 under Felix Magath, and finally Dortmund did it in 2010-11 with our JĆ¼rgen. And yet, none of those managers are held in as high regard as JĆ¼rgen just for having won the Bundesliga with a club not named Bayern (for good reason, I'd add, but I'm just making a different point here).

      The main difference in JĆ¼rgen's case was that he did it twice in a row, something that only Dortmund themselves (in 94-95 and 95-96), Hamburg (in the 80's) and Monchengladbach (in the 70's) have ever done, aside of course from Bayern Munich. Moreover, he made a mark in Europe in a way the likes of Stuttgart and Wolfsburg never did (though similarly to the Dortmund of the 90's, who were European champions), and rebuilt them from a near bankrupt position to a team that is sustainably challenging, even if still far behind Bayern in many dimensions.

      So I'm not in any way trying to diminish JĆ¼rgen's work at Dortmund as it was absolutely brilliant, just throwing it out there in regards to the comparison you made. And mostly because I actually went through the winning managers of every single European top leagues for the past 30 years recently (to prove a point in another thread), so I have all this useless knowledge in my brain I felt I should put to use. ;D

      Anyway, the Premier League these days is definitely the most competitive league in the world, and much harder to win by comparison. Not only there are many clubs with relatively similar spending power, you could also argue that the league has attracted the very best managers in the world.

      All about opinions Diego - I happen to disagree. The logic still passes that a team other than Bayern wins the league less frequently than the title changes hands in England (admittedly only amongst Chelsea, Utd and Citeh - Leicester aside).

      My point anyway was more that his two titles in Germany is a damned sight more than weā€™ve come close to achieving (League wise) in 27 years so I think diminishing it is evidence of a particular agenda (original convo, not your challenge).

      Anyhow......
      GERNS
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #29: Dec 29, 2017 01:01:05 pm
      Iā€™ve wuoted above what I feel the min requirements are, but wining the C L, Iā€™m up for that and think it is possible, with s little bit of luck, and our new keeper in place in Jan 🤪
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #30: Dec 29, 2017 01:07:34 pm
      All about opinions Diego - I happen to disagree. The logic still passes that a team other than Bayern wins the league less frequently than the title changes hands in England (admittedly only amongst Chelsea, Utd and Citeh - Leicester aside).

      My point anyway was more that his two titles in Germany is a damned sight more than weā€™ve come close to achieving (League wise) in 27 years so I think diminishing it is evidence of a particular agenda (original convo, not your challenge).

      Anyhow......

      I take your point, but I'd put it another way: the title in England exchanges hands only between clubs of similarly high investment (Chelsea, Utd, City), with the odd exception with smaller budgets (Leicester) being a total aberration to how things usually work.

      Meanwhile in the Bundesliga, teams of much lesser investment (in comparison to the one giant of that country, Bayern) win the league far more frequently - Kaiserslautern, Dortmund, Werder Bremen, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg. For me, that's because in Germany you basically need Bayern to have a bad year (or be absolutely fantastic to surpass them), whereas in England you need a host of clubs to seriously F**k up in order to win the title with a club like Leicester.

      That was the reason for my observation.

      But anyway, we sure agree that Klopp's achievements at Dortmund were fantastic. And in this day and age where the competition is almost entirely dominated by the continent's "super" clubs, taking a club such as Dortmund as far in the Champions League as he did was fantastic.
      bmck
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #31: Dec 29, 2017 01:10:58 pm
      Success and progress are different kettles of fish.
      Progress imo would be a top4 place while at the same time getting to the latter stages of the FA Cup, and we've already made progress this season on our most recent showing in the CL.
      Success imo is to win trophies. FA or CL or PL. Don't think it'll be PL. But no reason why we can't shoot for one of the other two :)
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #32: Dec 29, 2017 02:46:41 pm
      Success and progress are different kettles of fish.
      Progress imo would be a top4 place while at the same time getting to the latter stages of the FA Cup, and we've already made progress this season on our most recent showing in the CL.
      Success imo is to win trophies. FA or CL or PL. Don't think it'll be PL. But no reason why we can't shoot for one of the other two :)

      Precisely my point. Whilst our club needs to show progress, this team, this group of players need to have some form of success for its own individual growth. They need to get used to winning things if we want them to win things, start tasting what success feels like in a Liverpool shirt, and if not now, then when? Not being successful at our club makes it easier for them to view our club as a stepping stone.

      The title of this thread says 'successful' not acceptable. Qualifying for the Champions league twice on the run for the first time in ten years would be acceptable, given that it shows progress, but it could hardly be described as being a success. So for a successful season we need to dust off the Trophy Cabinet because its been looking bare for far too long.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #33: Dec 29, 2017 03:10:31 pm
      I know, like I said, I wasn't getting at you, all I meant was that it shows how far we've fallen as a club when supporters will accept the progress of not winning anything so long as we finish 4th. It's not a criticism of supporters but the club's failure. I do think we need to win something though this season. This team is getting used to not winning anything, to being perennial alsorans. I think for their own growth they need to lift a trophy, even if its just the FA Cup. A trophy would also be a visual symbol of our progress back towards being a successful club. I also think Klopp needs to win something in order to show that he can because he hasn't won a major trophy in five years and his success is rather overplayed in the minds of many supporters - Two Bundesliga titles, one domestic cup and two (German equivalent to) Charity Shields.  I think Klopp needs to show that he's not just a great motivator, not just a great coach, but a proven winner.

      But the game has changed considerably, of course it would be great to win a domestic trophy but at the expense of a second season in a row in the Champions League it would probably hurt our longer term development more despite the glory of winning an FA Cup. Sustained qualification for the Champions League vastly improves your ability to attract and to keep hold of the better players in the world. An FA Cup would be terrific it really would but there are plenty who would not swap a cup win for a top 4 finish. That's just how it is in modern day football.
      Compuche
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #34: Dec 29, 2017 03:13:01 pm
      @ the barest minimum, a top three finish would do.
      MIRO
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #35: Dec 29, 2017 03:22:11 pm
      Top 4 and CL again.

      Continuation and progress.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #36: Dec 29, 2017 03:58:41 pm
      But the game has changed considerably, of course it would be great to win a domestic trophy but at the expense of a second season in a row in the Champions League it would probably hurt our longer term development more despite the glory of winning an FA Cup. Sustained qualification for the Champions League vastly improves your ability to attract and to keep hold of the better players in the world. An FA Cup would be terrific it really would but there are plenty who would not swap a cup win for a top 4 finish. That's just how it is in modern day football.

      You're still confusing success with progress. They are not one and the same thing. The game has not changed, not one iota. Competitive sport is about winning things, it always has been and ever shall be. You're first or you're nowhere. That's the measurement of success. So again, I point you to the title of this thread. It doesn't say what does an acceptable 2017/18 look like, it asks what does a successful one look like, and if for you finishing 4th is success, then you're supporting the wrong club.
      MIRO
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #37: Dec 29, 2017 04:18:13 pm
      You're still confusing success with progress. They are not one and the same thing. The game has not changed, not one iota. Competitive sport is about winning things, it always has been and ever shall be. You're first or you're nowhere. That's the measurement of success. So again, I point you to the title of this thread. It doesn't say what does an acceptable 2017/18 look like, it asks what does a successful one look like, and if for you finishing 4th is success, then you're supporting the wrong club.

      Fourth is not success Five , I agree with you on that point.
      We are Billy Shankly Boys ...some of us ...and brought up on anything but first is not worth mentioning.

      However ... from the shambles and low point this club reached in recent years then to again finish the season in a CL berth to me would be a success. It shows progress. I don't care if its 2nd 3rd or 4th but to finish in one of those positions will consolidate where we are . We can kick on from there in 18/19.
      Pippen
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #38: Dec 29, 2017 04:31:44 pm
      I am satisfied. It's going into the right direction. I need #4 in the league or some silverware (FA, CL) to call this season a success. Next year that will change: Only silverware will count from that point on. 
      Scottbot
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #39: Dec 29, 2017 04:43:11 pm
      You're still confusing success with progress. They are not one and the same thing. The game has not changed, not one iota. Competitive sport is about winning things, it always has been and ever shall be. You're first or you're nowhere. That's the measurement of success. So again, I point you to the title of this thread. It doesn't say what does an acceptable 2017/18 look like, it asks what does a successful one look like, and if for you finishing 4th is success, then you're supporting the wrong club.

      Read the title of the thread again 'what would a successful season look like for YOU?' It says. It's subjective. In the context of where we've been in recent years, finishing in the top 4 places THIS season (no mean feat given there are 5 teams vying for three places) would represent success for many in this board. It's subjective is it not? You don't need to play thought police to everyone all the time. You can lament the fall of expectations of your typical Red but that makes not one iota of difference to how the team itself performs so what does it matter?
      « Last Edit: Dec 29, 2017 05:00:48 pm by Scottbot »
      srslfc
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #40: Dec 29, 2017 05:13:20 pm
      Finishing 2nd and winning the FA Cup would be good progress for me.

      We're easily the second best side in the league so I hope we transfer that into the final league position.

      I do have a feeling though we might do something in the CL and wouldn't be surprised if we end up in the final.
      bmck
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #41: Dec 29, 2017 05:20:40 pm
      Precisely my point. Whilst our club needs to show progress, this team, this group of players need to have some form of success for its own individual growth. They need to get used to winning things if we want them to win things, start tasting what success feels like in a Liverpool shirt, and if not now, then when? Not being successful at our club makes it easier for them to view our club as a stepping stone.


      Yea, success is like a habit that you can fall in and out of. Reckon players who have already won trophies are much better prepared psychologically to win again. Having experience of finals/crunch games and of closing out winning positions stands to players for the next time.
      And part of this squads progress is to start winning, getting across the line, and getting the hunger for more.

      I've no doubt that JĆ¼rgen is not in this just to make progress, he wants to win sh*t. And thank God for that.
      He's slowing improving the quality of players in the squad, and appears to be getting the backing to do it, which is great too.
      Doesn't happen overnight, and there will be bumps along the way.
      But he is most definitely the man for the job, absolutely nobody else I'd rather have in the position.
      Just look at the VVD signing - Klopp was a massive influence.

      Have no doubt that success is not far away ...
      HScRed1
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #42: Dec 29, 2017 05:27:31 pm
      Just having Klopp someone who can convince a player like VVD to come to the Reds when Guardiola wanted him is progress for me.
      clint_call01
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #43: Dec 29, 2017 05:38:52 pm
      Top 4 and silverware is a must for me!
      Cad1875
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #44: Dec 29, 2017 08:29:22 pm
      Finishing 2nd and winning the FA Cup would be good progress for me.

      We're easily the second best side in the league so I hope we transfer that into the final league position.

      I do have a feeling though we might do something in the CL and wouldn't be surprised if we end up in the final.

      Ditto
      « Last Edit: Dec 30, 2017 11:46:33 am by Cad1875 »
      crouchinho
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      Re: Half way in - what would a successful 2017/18 look like for you?
      Reply #45: Dec 30, 2017 03:53:39 am
      Top 3 in the league, semi-finals of the CL and winning the FA Cup.

      League - can't win it and we're giving a small lead up to the other two above us so if we can overtake one of them then I'd take it. That'd also mean avoiding a late heart-wrenching run like last season to confirm our spot in the top four.

      CL - couldn't have asked for a better group and opponent in the first knockout stage. A quarter-final berth is the minimum to expect and can't be considered a success at this point if we were to only beat Porto because in all honesty, we should. Comfortably.

      FA Cup - I want to win something.

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