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      Firmino and Holgate

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      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #253: Jan 13, 2018 03:00:43 pm
      Sorry but you'll have to lead me though your argument of why Churchill, who almost singlehandedly, until the US joined the war, held back Germany and the Nazi's, was a kunt. You do realise that if Germany had won then this rather entertaining discussion over race would be irrelevant don't you?
      BTW yes I do know that Churchill was no angel but if there was ever a right man for the right time then he must be the perfect example.

      You are aware of that tw*t Churchill sending gunboats up the Mersey with their guns trained on the city because of the great strike of 1926!!

      Have at least a small understanding of this city eh?

      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #254: Jan 13, 2018 03:01:49 pm

      I know it's a F***ing pure gobs***e shout isn't it!!
      heimdall
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #255: Jan 13, 2018 03:06:21 pm

      Sorry but eh? It really could have led to a fan getting injured.
      heimdall
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #256: Jan 13, 2018 03:08:32 pm
      You are aware of that tw*t Churchill sending gunboats up the Mersey with their guns trained on the city because of the great strike of 1926!!

      Have at least a small understanding of this city eh?



      Did the gunboats open fire, did it end the strike?
      In any case he was a great wartime leader or would you disagree?

      edit Just read up a bit on this and it was massive strikes, the authorities were freaking out but the year was in fact 1911 not 1926
      « Last Edit: Jan 13, 2018 03:29:32 pm by heimdall »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #257: Jan 13, 2018 03:17:21 pm
      What I don't understand is why some things on the field aren't dealt with by the police. To me it was assault, different from any normal foul. Seems like no matter what happens on a football pitch the FA have authority.

      Come on now, we don't want Plod getting involved. Players push, shuve all the time. Effectively threatening behaviour all the time. There are the odd extreme case, like the Holgate push but Plod wouldn't be interested. It's a matter for the FA.

      The only way Plod would get involved if there is clear evidence of racist language, which would be classed as hate crime.
      « Last Edit: Jan 13, 2018 11:36:21 pm by Harrisimo »
      heimdall
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #258: Jan 13, 2018 03:31:03 pm
      Come on now, we don't want Plod getting involved. Players push, shuve all the time. Effectively threatening behaviour all the time. Their are the odd extreme case, like the Holgate push but Plod wouldn't be interested. It's a matter for the FA.

      The only way Plod would get involved if there is clear evidence of racist language, which would be classed as hate crime.

      Was plod involved in the Cantona kung fu kick, wouldn't this be a similar thing, ie the fact that a player was deliberately pushed into the crowd?
      Baconbutty
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #259: Jan 13, 2018 03:32:41 pm
      Was plod involved in the Cantona kung fu kick, wouldn't this be a similar thing, ie the fact that a player was deliberately pushed into the crowd?

      Surely you see the massive difference between these two incidents?
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #260: Jan 13, 2018 03:32:58 pm
      Come on now, we don't want Plod getting involved. Players push, shuve all the time. Effectively threatening behaviour all the time. Their are the odd extreme case, like the Holgate push but Plod wouldn't be interested. It's a matter for the FA.

      The only way Plod would get involved if there is clear evidence of racist language, which would be classed as hate crime.
      the thing is, fans were put in danger, would you be saying that same sentence had a fan ended up with a broken neck?
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #261: Jan 13, 2018 03:53:51 pm
      Did the gunboats open fire, did it end the strike?
      In any case he was a great wartime leader or would you disagree?

      edit Just read up a bit on this and it was massive strikes, the authorities were freaking out but the year was in fact 1911 not 1926

      Churchill's entire career was clouded by Wartime jingoism for want of. He had a typical Tory disregard for the working class - a dispensable breed as far as he was concerned.
      Boston not la
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #262: Jan 13, 2018 04:05:20 pm
      What I don't understand is why some things on the field aren't dealt with by the police. To me it was assault, different from any normal foul. Seems like no matter what happens on a football pitch the FA have authority. 

       

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkfwgoQTyrA
      heimdall
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #263: Jan 13, 2018 05:29:32 pm
      Churchill's entire career was clouded by Wartime jingoism for want of. He had a typical Tory disregard for the working class - a dispensable breed as far as he was concerned.

      Churchill was actually a Liberal for most of his political career.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #264: Jan 13, 2018 06:10:35 pm
      Churchill was actually a Liberal for most of his political career.

      And it was meeting Hitler, in the early thirties, that made him ramp up our armed forces again.
      sore monad
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #265: Jan 13, 2018 07:28:07 pm
      Did the gunboats open fire, did it end the strike?
      In any case he was a great wartime leader or would you disagree?

      edit Just read up a bit on this and it was massive strikes, the authorities were freaking out but the year was in fact 1911 not 1926

      Churchill sent the troops in again (all over Britain this time) to break the general strike of 1926. Baldwin overruled him on the matter of whether the troops should be armed. There likely would have been a bloodbath if Churchill had got his way.

      Churchill was a hardline conservative who believed in keeping the working class firmly underfoot.

      He had a way with words, he was no fool, and he was basically the ideal wartime PM. But there is fundamentally no contradiction between that and being a guy who would step very brutally on anybody who threatened his own class's interests.

      [Edit: of course one of the more interesting sides of the general strike in 1926 was how it was sabotaged by the TUC, who called it off after secret talks with the government, leaving the miners hanging out to dry on their own. When dealing with the political classes, it's your friends who you really have to watch out for.]
      « Last Edit: Jan 13, 2018 07:46:53 pm by sore monad »
      ConzS
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #266: Jan 13, 2018 07:36:04 pm
      This thread has fairly digressed. Sounds like folk in here want the FA to suspend Churchill.
      sore monad
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #267: Jan 13, 2018 07:50:05 pm
      This thread has fairly digressed. Sounds like folk in here want the FA to suspend Churchill.

      Damn right. Remember when he did this?

       - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBt8AoLBCoo

      Dirty b***ard. And he handled the ball.
      FL Red
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #268: Jan 13, 2018 07:56:46 pm
      Firmino will be punished with some kind of ban because Holgate has played the race card. The FA will, like most authorities in the world, want to present an image of dealing with any form of racism harshly. Even though there's no evidence of racism, that won't stop them. This is not the FA witch hunt against Liverpool but rather trying to protect themselves from the likes of Clarke Carlisle or Paul McGrath (two racist fuckers themsleves) where they're accused of brushing racism under the carpet.

      Holgate, himself, may get some sort of punishment (probably a fine) for his push on Firmino. But again, given the race card has been played I doubt it. Just for the FA to protect their own image.

      And it's authorities/companies/medias trying to protect their own image of "we're not racist/sexist/homophobic/any other word that offends" that actually causes what they're trying to prevent. If Bobby is punished (like Suarez was with no evidence) then that just says to every other player to say they were racially abused even when they weren't. By shitting themselves it sends out the wrong image. The FA really need to make a stance here and say "we're not ignoring racism but accussing somebody of racism when there's no evidence of it is just as bad as somebody actually being racist and therefore it's Mason Holgate who'll be punished and not Roberto Firmino"

      The difference with the Suarez incident is that Luis admitted to saying what Evra claimed he said. In Luis’ native language it didn’t mean what Evra thought it did, but the FA didn’t take that into account of course. Bobby to my knowledge hasnt admitted to saying anything that could even be misconstrued as being racist, although one has to wonder why it would take this long for them to render a verdict of innocence.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #269: Jan 13, 2018 07:58:09 pm
      Churchill sent the troops in again (all over Britain this time) to break the general strike of 1926. Baldwin overruled him on the matter of whether the troops should be armed. There likely would have been a bloodbath if Churchill had got his way.

      Churchill was a hardline conservative who believed in keeping the working class firmly underfoot.

      He had a way with words, he was no fool, and he was basically the ideal wartime PM. But there is fundamentally no contradiction between that and being a guy who would step very brutally on anybody who threatened his own class's interests.

      [Edit: of course one of the more interesting sides of the general strike in 1926 was how it was sabotaged by the TUC, who called it off after secret talks with the government, leaving the miners hanging out to dry on their own. When dealing with the political classes, it's your friends who you really have to watch out for.]

      Churchill is a hugely contradictory figure, made a lot of friends and enemies in high places, did some good eg championing tanks but a lot of bad such as the dardanelles fiasco amongst many things
      redtiler
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #270: Jan 13, 2018 11:27:38 pm
      You are aware of that tw*t Churchill sending gunboats up the Mersey with their guns trained on the city because of the great strike of 1926!!

      Have at least a small understanding of this city eh?



      Look up all the seamen in the Merch, who were rounded up by police, after the war, were sent back to where they came from..... even tho' they had familes
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #271: Jan 14, 2018 12:33:45 am
      Churchill is a hugely contradictory figure, made a lot of friends and enemies in high places, did some good eg championing tanks but a lot of bad such as the dardanelles fiasco amongst many things

      Yeah - the biggest figures in history are never anything other than complex and contradictory. Churchill's career seems to be a series of catastrophic errors and then getting one big thing right. That leadership during WW2 doesn't excuse the horrendous judgements he made beforehand but at the same time it would be equally petty to use that to dismiss his influential role in defeating Nazism. How he is judged is, as in all cases of history, down to the reader!

      Even football is littered with them. Our own Tommy Smith - a brilliant, stoic player yet by all accounts a pretty nasty racist off the field. That fact doesn't make me unappreciative of what he did for this club (if just one of our current players was half as influential on the field as he was then we'd be twice the club!) but at the same time his brilliance doesn't make me apologetic of some terrible racist comments he's made.

      This alleged 'racist' scandal however continues to be nothing but a joke instigated by, at best, a misunderstanding and at worst, troublemaking on the part of Holgate. It says everything about the scheming and incompetent FA that this continues to be an issue over a week on.

      That referee Bobby Madely allowed the situation to fester and the anger to bubble over rather than do the obvious thing and send Holgate off is also at the heart of this issue. It should never have got to the opportunity where Holgate can start mouthing off some serious allegations just to, I suspect, force the referee to try and send Firmino off.
      « Last Edit: Jan 14, 2018 12:43:39 am by Frankly, Mr Shankly »
      Redangel
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #272: Jan 15, 2018 01:21:00 pm
      Surely something should have happened over this by now. It’s not fair to leave this hanging over Firmino for so long. If they had evidence they would have charged him by now, I’m sure.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #273: Jan 15, 2018 05:58:07 pm
      Surely something should have happened over this by now. It’s not fair to leave this hanging over Firmino for so long. If they had evidence they would have charged him by now, I’m sure.

      I think they're just going to let it go and say that there was miscommunication in the heat of the moment and there was no clear understanding of anything said.

      I don't think there is anything hanging over Bobby as there is zero evidence and nobody is talking about it.
      GERNS
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #274: Jan 15, 2018 08:12:32 pm
      Of Bobby didn’t say anything racsist, he won’t be stressed about anything, but Holgate will be, worrying about possible consequences of his false allegations.
      tezmac
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      Re: Firmino and Holgate
      Reply #275: Jan 15, 2018 08:17:08 pm
      I think they're just going to let it go and say that there was miscommunication in the heat of the moment and there was no clear understanding of anything said.

      I don't think there is anything hanging over Bobby as there is zero evidence and nobody is talking about it.


      Yes and nothing is being done about the push

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